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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 15, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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Yesterday I found a fixed pin anchor that had a new looking piece of webbing on it. Both pins were drove all the way to the eye. Both pins came out easily and the crack they were in was expanding. The webbing had rap rings. My plan was to replace these pins with pins 1 size larger. This morning there is a new plan, these pins will be replaced with a 2 bolt anchor. I think it would be irresponsible of me to replace an old death trap with a new death trap. Anyone out there have a problem with this?
Roger Brown
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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No problem at all, most people don't carry hammers to test fixed gear, bolts can be replaced in the future reusing the same holes without further degrading the rock (unlike pins), and besides a bolt+hanger is about 1/3 the cost of an LA.
Personally I think ALL fixed pin anchors should be bolts, YMMV.
And thanks for all your work Roger!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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good call
use the bolts.
there will be less impact over time.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Agree with both posts, but particularly with El Cap's. When we all carried hammers, we could test fixed pins, just like David Brower told us to do in the Publisher's Foreward to Roper's red Climber's Guide to Yosemite Valley. Since the early 1970's, when we pretty much stopped carrying hammers on free climbs, we have no reliable way to test them, and several fixed pins from those days are now gone.
As just one example, the pendulum on Royal Arches used to be from a horizontal driven up under the small roof, a foot or so above the bolt anchors. When we tested the pin, with its full complement of tat, in 1969, it pulled with the force from a small tug.
Bolts in your situation are just fine, IMHO.
John
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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If there are expansion issues with the crack, bolt anchors are the responsible solution - good call.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Bolt it up. Thanks for the work!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Three words: PinBolt!!!
(Thanks Roger, you da man!)
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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I am in disagreement with this idea. Removing the pins allow clean gear to be left OR, nothing at all if one tops out and walks off. Also, if you upsized the pins would they be better? If there is another way down, do not replace this anchor with bolts. Bolts are ALWAYS permanent fixtures where pins often can be upgraded to a removable piece.
If it is the only way down, the next question to ask is 'are these bolts and this station essential?'. If you can skip this station then move on. If ropes always (or better than 75% of the time) get stuck they even if a short rap the station is needed. Then think about some variety of pins, stoppers, etc before a hole.
Bolts are good in moderation. Now TomTom tower needs some freaking bolts on the summit as that crap up there now is bogus.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Bolts are ALWAYS permanent fixtures where pins often can be upgraded to a removable piece.
I think this is less universally true than we used to think.
I don't know the placements Roger is talking about, so can't speak to the specifics. But there are many cases in which bolts are preferable to pins for both environmental and ethical reasons. 3/8 stainless in granite can be easily removed and the holes patched and camouflaged. Pin scars are permanent. Crack widening is permanent.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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Thanks for your work Roger. I know you said there was rap slings but was this used as a belay anchor as well ? I'm assuming by pins you mean LA's not angles so there really isn't "gear" available. If it's a rap route then by all means yes. Not every belay is bolted though. I'm sure you know better than me. Just curious.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jun 15, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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I trust your experience and ethics, Roger. Bolt at will!
BTW thanks for all the work you do.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jun 15, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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Thanks for the good work Roger!
If you're ever up in the olmsted canyon there are two button heads with homemade anchors on Osprey Overhang (they can be accessed via the regular route). They actually look like they're in pretty good shape but button heads/homemade hangers never make me feel particularly good.
kev
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Roger,
Thank you for your work and the thought you put into anchor and bolt replacement! Seems like a good solution in this case.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 15, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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Fix the pins with bolts.
At Taquitiz, each spring, we would find the fixxed pin from the Blank, lying on the ground.
We would hammer it back in and everybody would trust it....
It got replaced with a bolt.....
It took a while for US to wise up!
Pins are time bombs and CLEAN CLIMBING means no hammers.
Fix it Rodger
Thank you.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 15, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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Expando flake doesn't sound like the best thing to build a rap station from anyway.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Jun 15, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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MisterE summed it up nicely. Anchors should be solid.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 15, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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There's not really enough information to provide context, e.g. how difficult the route is, how often it's climbed, whether it's regularly used as a rappel route. If it is climbed at least occasionally, and/or often used for rappelling, then yes, fixed anchors seem to make sense. Roger and team have good judgment, and can be trusted to do the right thing.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
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A couple of notes. The anchor had really old webbing and the rap rings appeared to be as old as well. Either a rap station or a lot of people bailed from there:-) The 2" crack on the left well take cams. Route probably popular at one time but not that popular now. 1 pin was a 1/2" angle and the other was a long dong type arrow. (old style) I usually just upgrade pins to something better but this being a rap anchor changed my mind. I won't use any ASCA stuff.
Roger Brown
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jun 15, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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Use your best judgment.
Every situation is unique.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jun 15, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
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^^^^
It's a rappel anchor. You first;)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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It's true - if it was a route that normally is climbed to the top and descended separately, and takes clean gear, usually no need for a fixed anchor. Example: Nutcracker.
So I got some more details.
In this case, it's a rappel anchor for a 5.10 route freed in the 60s.
An extension to the rim has since been done with 3 5.11 pitches, but the 5.10 route still gets done by itself.
We ran across a few fixed pin anchors on the Apron in years past, often marked as xx on the topo.... Hard to maintain, so those went to stainless bolts.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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Many years ago I lost a young friend to an untested fixed pin rap. I would have ZERO issues with replacing a death trap with solid bolts.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Jun 16, 2012 - 02:11am PT
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pinbolts!
expando rap anchor = death trap, good call to rings and bolts.
thx!
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jun 16, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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Roger lots of ole timers tell me that pitons/pitoncraft is a lost art so bolt it.
nice thread.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 16, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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I doubt that most climbers know how to check pins for soundness and may only hope that someone has checked on a prior ascent in the same year. I vote with you, not only for their safety, but for your peace of mind.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 16, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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The only way I would know would be to hit it sideways with a hammer. If it comes out it's not a fixed pin. If you're free climbing with no hamer, I guess you could put a sling on it and bounce test it.
Can't say I ever did any of this, though, in my early days of climbing at the Gunks. Every route has a couple of ancient pins on it. There are thousands of them, but you won't find a single stainless steel bolt. This is a major part of the character and history of the place.
At the gunks these old pins are generally pretty solid, but don't look that way to a beginning climber. I can still remember, arriving on Friday night after a week of work in Boston, usually arrive just at dusk and the cliffs were unbelievably frightening to me. I wouldn't want to spoil this for anyone else - I obviously overcame it and then later in my climbing career, there were scores of routes 5.5 and below I could solo, that I already knew.
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Jun 16, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
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If you're going to leave something in the rock, make it permanent and long lasting.
Clipping fixed pins sucks. Clipping fixed heads on free routes is lane. The corner pitch off sous le toit has a bunch of half broken pounded in nuts because someone was to ethical to bolt it but not ethical enough to clean their garbage fixed gear.
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| Messages 1 - 27 of total 27 in this topic |
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