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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jun 13, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
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The rock can fall down? Evacuate the valley! I'm cancelling my trip this weekend.... :-(
You
are
going
to
die!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jun 13, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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Hazards abound. Better just stay home & play nintendo.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 14, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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Great news, any scare tactic to thin the crowds is good
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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Jun 14, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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Ooh… Ooh… Ooh… I get to say it first!
Yer…
Gonna…
Die!!!!!!
:-)
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Jun 14, 2012 - 12:13am PT
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This world is not made of rubber?? I guess I quit.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Jun 14, 2012 - 12:18am PT
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For those who care: it "exasperates" one to keep seeing journalists make silly mistakes.
This in turn tends to exacerbate a situation for which the media is not prepared: reporting the NEWS instead of the OLDS and not using there spell-chuckers is bound to create more skepticism among us cynics.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 14, 2012 - 01:17am PT
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Giant Walmart parking lots in no earthquake, no tornado, no hurricane zones are the only safe places.
That's why I moved there. Plus all the nice people.
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b_rad
climber
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Jun 14, 2012 - 01:26am PT
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Countdown until the valley floor is littered with signs warning of potential rockfall, insect bites and mild sunburn..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 14, 2012 - 01:30am PT
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For the pitifully little time I've spent there I've nearly embraced the SuperTopo
mantra three or four times, not counting a nearly major tooling.
Rockfall and snowstorms are bad enough but them tools are really scary!
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jun 14, 2012 - 02:43am PT
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frickin curry company, puttin those tents so close,
seems almost criminal to me,
i still remember the floor plan from 1960, and it ain't anywhere near what it is today,
the dead people knew how to do things,
nowadays?
green, get the money, dollah dollah bill yo'all ,F the people,
full props going out to Greg for looking after people, kind of rare these days,
not much love left in the world today, everybody lookin out for #1,
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jun 14, 2012 - 03:23am PT
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does this wipe out the free coffee with a ranger program?
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
the green triangle, cali
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Jun 14, 2012 - 05:05am PT
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i hear even the deer in yosemite kill people from time to time. what a place.
not meant to discredit stock, just rather funny, to me.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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Jun 14, 2012 - 05:22am PT
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I didn't know that there was rockfall in Yosemite. Why wasn't I warned before?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 14, 2012 - 09:01am PT
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just yesterday, i was able to beat a ticket in kern county superior court. the good judge couldn't agree that driving over a couple inches of snow on a road constituted entering an area restricted for "construction, maintenance or repair". but the USFS tried to nanny us away from that grave danger. anything to keep the people away from the fun.
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kenny morrell
Trad climber
danville,ca
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Jun 14, 2012 - 09:02am PT
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the most dangerous thing in the valley is ..... law enforcement rangers
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jun 14, 2012 - 09:17am PT
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Quoth geologist: "There are no absolutely safe areas in Yosemite Valley," said Greg Stock, the park's first staff geologist and the primary author of a new study that assesses the potential risk to people from falling rocks.."
Actually - I think we should send this guy a fruit basket and encourage him to write additional alarmist statements to scare off the tourists. Maybe we can get him to report a couple death-by-bear-attack or a Guatemalan drug cartel presence in the Valley to really thin the herd.:)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Jun 14, 2012 - 11:22am PT
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"Hey, Mr. Ranger, can I get to Absolutely Free from Tweedle Dee?"
--Mouse, Temporarily Lost in Simi Valley (two hundred times more dangerous than Yosemite Valley, give or take)
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
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Jun 14, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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Lobbying for space for more tent camps and closing some of the more exposed...it is the new political standard.
Do a study that says what you want it to say and then cite the study when lobbying for what you want....Social Security, The very short lived 1 in 8 campaign for the" American Malnourished" that don't exist....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 14, 2012 - 11:32am PT
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edit; "There are no absolutely safe areas"
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jun 14, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Funny how the newspapers report almost exactly the same story; however, not precisely the same. The San Diego paper didn't mention 1987 and "the equivalent of more than 22,000 dump truck loads of rock". I hope they broke them up and sold them as souvenirs like they're planning on doing in Nepal.
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
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Jun 14, 2012 - 11:54am PT
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Then maybe it will be less crowded
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 14, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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The real danger is unstated in the article: the tort bar. Greg Stock posts often on ST, and I find his posts some of the most useful information here. The key point in the McClatchy articles (in the Bee and Mercury News) was that park officials were aware that the tent cabins were in a danger zone. I'm glad they didn't release this information until after the statute of limitations ran. I could only imagine the feast for the plaintiffs' bar.
The fact remains that many of us stayed alive for many decades precisely because we know the mountains are dangerous, and act accordingly. As others have stated, if it keeps a few of the folks who want the whole world covered in airbags away, that's a good thing.
John
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Jun 14, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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Greg Stock is a solid guy.Massive respect. He has been nothing short of a positive attribute to this site. Eeez up folks.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 14, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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I'll be throwing my sleeping bag under the downhill side of Columbia Boulder from now on. Only truly safe place in the Valley.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jun 14, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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Was going to say, but others just have, that Greg Stock posts here. I look forward to hearing him chime in. He does always offer really excellent information. Great asset!
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 14, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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Yes, Gregory Stock is right, they are responding mainly to the law suit crazy Country we currently live in, not to any increased danger.
Actually, deer are much more dangerous statistically speaking, than rockfall, rattlesnakes, lightening strikes, and other dangers. More people are killed or seriously injured swerving off the road after hitting, or to avoid hitting, deer in their headlights, as compared to these other things.
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John M
climber
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Jun 14, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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Will deer come with a gov warning label?
WARNING.. STAY BACK! This deer is more dangerous then it appears!
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Jun 14, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
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As you might expect, there is more to the story than that reported by AP. Here is the press release the NPS put out this morning, which includes a link to download the rock-fall hazard and risk assessment report:
"Yosemite National Park and U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) Publish Quantitative Rockfall Hazard and Risk Assessment for Yosemite Valley
Date: June 14, 2012
Guidance Will be Used to Enhance Public Safety in Yosemite Valley
Yosemite National Park and USGS scientists, in collaboration with academic geologists, recently completed a comprehensive study of rockfall hazard and risk in Yosemite Valley. This internationally peer-reviewed study utilized new data and technologies to map the cliffs and talus slopes, date ancient rockfalls, and perform computer simulations of potential future rockfalls. This information was used to identify a rockfall hazard line on the valley floor. Existing structures within this line were evaluated using a numerical "risk metric" that quantifies the risk posed to human life and safety. This study represents the first time that rockfall risk has been quantitatively assessed in Yosemite Valley.
The information in the study was adopted by Yosemite National Park this month. Several high-risk structures within the hazard zone will no longer be occupied and others will be repurposed or relocated as the policy is implemented. These structures include some concessionaire employee housing and a few hard-sided cabins and tent cabins at Curry Village, which will no longer be available for occupancy. Risks will be mitigated at other locations by modifying use patterns. Although it is not practical to eliminate all rockfall risk, these actions, combined with the closures in Curry Village implemented in 2008, will reduce the overall risk associated with structures in Yosemite Valley by 95 percent.
Rockfalls are natural processes that continue to shape Yosemite Valley. They also pose potential hazards to park visitors, employees, and residents. During historical time, more than 900 rockfalls have been documented. Over the 150 years of the park's history, a few people have been killed by such geologic hazards and many others injured. Trails, roads, and buildings have also been damaged or destroyed by such processes.
In October 2008, two rockfalls caused minor injuries and substantial damage to many structures in Curry Village. After a geologic assessment was completed, the park permanently closed numerous visitor accommodations at Curry Village in the rockfall hazard zone. Additionally, several concessioner employee housing units, also at Curry Village, were closed. These closures in Curry Village reduced the overall risk associated with structures in Yosemite Valley.
The full report, Quantitative Rockfall Hazard and Risk Assessment for Yosemite Valley, Yosemite National Park, California, can be found at http://www.nps.gov/yose/naturescience/rockfall.htm "
Rock-fall hazards and risks are not hypothetical in Yosemite Valley:
This situation can be mostly avoided by closing, relocating, and/or re-purposing the highest risk structures in the Valley. The NPS recognizes that it cannot eliminate all risk from rock falls, or from any other natural hazard, but when hazards and risks can be understood and reasonably reduced - especially by relocating structures or campsites - it makes sense to do so.
I encourage anyone interested in this issue to have a look at the report (if nothing else, you’ll learn how long Columbia Boulder has been sitting there), and - as always - please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
Thanks for your support.
Greg Stock
Park Geologist
(209) 379-1420
greg_stock@nps.gov
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Always great hearing the word from you, Greg!
Thanks for adding to it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 15, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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The biggest changes I've seen in Yosemite in decades have been all the closures due to flood and rockfall danger.
Campsites and cabins in the flood plane and rockfall zones. Most recently, even long standing parking places at the Ahwahnee.
It's a catch 22, they can't easily build in places where they haven't built already and the places they have built already are prone to rockfall and flood
Peace
Karl
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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before they start more building, they ought to start restoring the places they built wrong in the first place. give back before you take more. trying giving back more than you've taken. it could be a template for the future of development.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 15, 2012 - 12:38am PT
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I never did understand why they closed the river campgrounds. So what if every 50 years they flood in wintertime, when they're closed? Pretty much everything else in the Valley is also on a floodplain.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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edited out of fear of sounding anti-science
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jun 15, 2012 - 12:51am PT
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A culmination of years of good work. Thanks Greg.
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LeeBow
Trad climber
Victoria BC
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Jun 15, 2012 - 04:03am PT
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Quick, everybody move to the Canadian Rockies...
Much safer there...
Foot of Chinaman's Pk could be pretty safe...
Snigger
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jun 15, 2012 - 04:50am PT
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does this mean no more trundling inside the park?
because if that's the case, they can have my senior discount back,
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 08:49am PT
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digging through that link, i'm not finding the columbia boulder's time of arrival. in one of the links?
i do remember my first walk to cookie cliff, sometime in the mid 80s. it was breathtaking to find the two-track jeep trail disappear under a garage-sized boulder.
i hope the managers of YNP start to get the idea that the valley should not be approached from the point of view of a hotelier.
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Jun 15, 2012 - 09:49am PT
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From the pdf link posted above, Figure 11 on page 23, and also Table 2 on pages 42-43:
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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thanks for the links Greg, loved seeing this reference to "Zimmer et al., 2012"
is the 1-meter DEM available from the USGS? (or whoever?)
Zimmer, V.L., Collins, B.D., Stock, G.M., and Sitar, N., 2012, Rock fall dynamics and
deposition: An integrated analysis of the 2009 Ahwiyah Point rock fall, Yosemite National
Park, USA: Earth Surface Processes and Landforms, v. 37, p. 680-691, doi:
10.1002/esp.3206.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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so the beryllium exposure indicates the time it broke from the cliff? 4-5,000 years ago, roughly. the ice age "ended" 10-12,000 years ago, but when did the glacier disappear entirely from the bottom of the valley? not an erratic? evidence of alteration of the boulder's shape by glaciation?
4-5,000 years ago would place it close to a climatic thermal high, as i recall from some reading on the subject--warmer times than the present, in which we're undergoing a rapid swing of warming nevertheless, and we argue whether it's natural or due to human activities. effects of this warming on overall rockfall?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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i thought they were pretty simple questions. maybe you don't know what an erratic is. i sure as hell don't know what a DEM LIDAR is.
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Jun 15, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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Sometimes, Tony, people post at the same time. I was answering Ed's question first.
To your questions: Yosemite Valley was deglaciated about 15,000 years ago. Although there are a few moraines in the Valley, there are very few erratics. This is probably because the valley experienced a few meters of aggradation just after the glacier retreated, burying those boulders. The boulders on the valley floor, with only a few exceptions, are from rock falls. We know this because the rock types of the boulders match those of the cliffs right above them (and there are about 12 different types of granite in the Valley), there are no "exotic" rock types like Cathedral Peak Granite, and the boulders we have dated all are younger than 15,000 years. The cosmogenic exposure age dates how long a rock-fall boulder has been sitting on the floor of the valley, exposed to cosmic ray bombardment and thus production of cosmogenic isotopes.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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DEM = Digital Elevation Model
LIDAR is a sensor used to map variances in elevation. It's akin to radar in that a beam (actually a laser) is shot out of the bottom of an aircraft and uses metrics like time to calculate the distance from the aircraft to the ground. After millions of these signals "bounce" back to the aircraft, a very clear picture of the surface of the earth can be made. It's by far the most accurate tool for mapping elevation and at 1 meter, it's a very accurate dataset.
Basically ever square meter of ground within that dataset has an elevation value applied to it, as opposed to a 100 meter dataset, where only every 100 square meters has an elevation value applied to it.
Man, if I got to work on projects like these I probably wouldn't be leaving the GIS industry.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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ah, appreciate that, and sorry for being impatient. if ed would only talk in the same language he plays scrabble in ...
i guess we'd all like to know where you think this is going, although it may be too soon to ask.
thanks to you too, bergbryce.
don't know if it's been noted, but i recall the deaths from one of the glacier point rockfalls were due to trees being knocked down at some distance from the cliff by the wind created at impact. seems pretty hard to anticipate such stuff. there was also some kind of lawsuit over outhouses up on glacier point, alleging they loosened rock over time. what came of that?
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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Where it's going appears to be done. A handful of places have been determined to be exposed to a higher level of rockfall danger than others and some structures are being moved or demolished. Not sure if there is going to be any other outcome other than this.
I think the goal of the study was to determine the areas most likely to see dangerous levels of rockfall, identify any structures/activities that took place there and either move or remove them to safer locations.
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Drewid
Boulder climber
New Helvetia, CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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So according to the Bee article they're going to close some of those new employee dorms they just built in 2005 near the Curry boulders (Huff area) I presume. What a joke, spend a few million on brand new buildings and then just shutter them, what nonsense. And closing only 6 sites at Camp 4, how ridiculous is that? I presume those are the along the back row (northern) sites which are a whole 20 feet away from the "safe" sites. Give me a break. When you're dealing with rock fall, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you can't predict the danger zone down to the nearest 20 feet. If one site in Camp 4 is truly at risk, the whole place is at risk which just highlights Greg's comment that no place in the Valley is free of danger. If you get too far from the cliffs, you're too close to the floodplain and sensitive river corridor blah blah so you're damned if you do damned if you don't.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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Greg, especially, and the rest of you, it's an elevating discussion this morning. I am stoked to hear the NPS is employing the likes of Greg, who is walking in the footsteps and standing on the shoulders of men like Muir and Matthes and Francis Farquhar, even though none of them worked for the Park Service (that I ever heard). It counters the perception of John Law, et al.
Thanks for the enlightenment, Greg. You should be a McClatchy stringer, maybe? We might get less Bee S. out of their hive.
IMO, trundling is a stupid thing if done in the Park. Don't, please.
"It's not what you do, it's what you get caught doing," in which case John Law should do his thing.
Parting shot: It is a real sad thing to think that some unlucky soul may have tried to duck behind Big C., only to get blind-sided by the little guy! :(
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 15, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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I never did understand why they closed the river campgrounds. So what if every 50 years they flood in wintertime, when they're closed? Pretty much everything else in the Valley is also on a floodplain.
Hear, hear! I've had cynical thoughts about that since 1996, Anders.
John
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