Discussion Topic |
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 4, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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Everything changed seventy years ago today in our war in the Pacific.
The Japanese went from offense to perpetual defense when a combination of luck and culture allowed the US to sink all four enemy carriers, but there was great valor displayed on both sides.
In one of the earlier unsuccessful waves fifteen US torpedo plane crews attacked without fighter cover.
All were shot down.
One man survived.
It would have been a different world if not for the bravery of these men.
Do you think climbers are tough?
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beef supreme
climber
the west
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Ron, good post. I think about this kinda thing all the time. Not only from the war perspective- like aviation back then with a compass and a huge set of balls for example (not to mention having people shooting at you), but also other things like people riding bikes to Nome in the winter during the gold rush, etc. People did all kinds of crazy sh#t back then; if people were doing the same things now they would just have to be sponsored by cliff bar or something for such feats.
I think that people were just way more hardcore back then. What happened? haha
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Gene
climber
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The code breakers.
Garbled radio messages from recon aircraft.
Halsey ill, so Spruance gets the call.
The Japanese fleet divides into three battle groups.
Superhuman effort putting band aids on the Yorktown.
Nagumo's indecision and bad call.
Serendipity when the US air attacks simultaneously hit the Japanese carriers.
Spruance knowing when to call it good.
Amazing event. The turning point in the Pacific. Two months later Stalingrad starts. The beginning of the end for the Axis.
Thanks, Ron.
g
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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Gene obviously knows his stuff.
I like Victor Davis Hansen's account in Carnage And Culture.
One of the things that won the battle was our superior damage control capabilities.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Midway was tough. It never ceases to amaze me how much "dumb luck", chance and bad judgment figures into war history and outcome (not discounting bravery and sacrifice).
The Naval Battle during the Invasion of Leyte was as tough and as deadly. If not for some extreme bravery and heroics performed by some out-matched American Destroyers the Japanese could have easily wiped out the Invasion Force and Carriers. Mix in the "dumb luck", chance and poor decisions and you have another epic.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Climbers aren't very tough. In the military "take" is not in the vocabulary.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Speaking of tough. How about Daniel Innouye:
(from wikipedia)
As he led his platoon in a flanking maneuver, three German machine guns opened fire from covered positions just 40 yards away, pinning his men to the ground. Inouye stood up to attack and was shot in the stomach; ignoring his wound, he proceeded to attack and destroy the first machine gun nest with hand grenades and fire from his M1 Thompson submachine gun. After being informed of the severity of his wound by his platoon sergeant, he refused treatment and rallied his men for an attack on the second machine gun position, which he also successfully destroyed before collapsing from blood loss.
As his squad distracted the third machine gunner, Inouye crawled toward the final bunker, eventually drawing within 10 yards. As he raised himself up and cocked his arm to throw his last grenade into the fighting position, a German inside fired a rifle grenade that struck him on the right elbow, severing most of his arm and leaving his own primed grenade reflexively "clenched in a fist that suddenly didn't belong to me anymore".[10] Inouye's horrified soldiers moved to his aid, but he shouted for them to keep back out of fear his severed fist would involuntarily relax and drop the grenade. As the German inside the bunker reloaded his rifle, Inouye managed to pry the live grenade from his useless right hand and transfer it to his left. As the German aimed his rifle to finish him off, Inouye managed at last to toss the grenade off-hand into the bunker and destroy it. He stumbled to his feet and continued forward, silencing the last German resistance with a one-handed burst from his Thompson before being wounded in the leg and tumbling unconscious to the bottom of the ridge. When he awoke to see the concerned men of his platoon hovering over him, his only comment before being carried away was to gruffly order them to return to their positions, since, as he pointed out, "nobody [had] called off the war!"[11]
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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The Naval Battle during the Invasion of Leyte was as tough and as deadly.
The battle of Leyte Gulf is still the biggest naval battle in the history of the world. My father flew F6F Hellcats off the USS Enterprise in that fight--as part of the 75 combat missions he flew on his tour of duty with Air Group 20.
Curt
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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In one of the earlier unsuccessful waves fifteen US torpedo plane crews attacked without fighter cover.
All were shot down.
One man survived.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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Well now we are bouncing all over the place. I was thinking about an anniversary of a most pivotal point.
But I gotta admit that Cragman makes a good recommend.
One of my favorite parts in Tin Can Sailors was Blue Archer becoming the first person to attack an 80,000 ton battleship with a .38 special.
Bet he put the plaid pajamas on for that one!
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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P Ron, I apologize for the thread drift. I just completed the Tin Can Sailors book a few days ago. I think you recommended it on some thread, possibly the what book thread.
Can you imagine what was going through George Gay's mind as he floating in the sea for those hours surrounded by all the enemy ships? His survival and rescue are miraculous.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Admiral Nimitz --- The best of the best.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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Actually, Tobia, it was Woody who started the thread about the book which got me to read it.
Wasn't George Gay played by Eddie Albert Jr.?
His dad was a real hero of the war in the Pacific. As I recall he waded out in the coral at Tarawa and recovered many wounded men.
As Hollywood is want to do, they threw some imaginary characters into the greater story, but the film did a good job of depicting a complicated battle.
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Compass & map over open water....all those guys (fliers AND sailors)had bowling balls...
I think Ensign Gay was quoted, in reply to a question re: treating his wounds, that he "soaked them in salt water for several hours"
What a f'in stud.
Curt -- I've checked out the website of your dad's squadron / group -- good stuff!!
Somewhat related (WWII) drift -- my sister's dad-in-law (RIP) flew the Burma Hump (157.5 round trips!), her hubby showed me a big plastic storage bin with ALL his maps, logbooks & mementos -- there's a currency strip (money from posts) that's signed by probably half the CNAC pilots -- WAY COOL!
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Credit to Woody then, it was a great read. I read the Rising Sun prior to that.
The sacrifices the role players made in that war and all other wars is humbling. I feel good about picking up litter. I am not sure I am made of the same metal as these guys were and thankful that I may never have to find out; their gift to me and everyone else.
I have never seen a brass wrench before, Ron can you post a picture of it?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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I was a little worried there. I was afraid that they just used brass wrenches to match the pilots' balls.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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To be honest I kept wondering why brass, thinking about how malleable it is; it wouldn't be a strong wrench maybe corrosiveness? I never considered sparks.
Fat dad, thanks for the video link. It wasn't too long ago I streamed the whole documentary.
I discovered this link at the end of the Midway video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlGI0vX14vU
Battle 360° ~ Battle of Leyte Gulf
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Ron... nice topic.
We owe a greater debt, then we could ever pay back, to our brave Fathers and Mothers who
sacrificed it all.
Victory at Midway goes way back in our history.
Billy Mitchell proved you could sink capital ships with 1,000 lb bombs.
His success and the way he conducted his demonstration, created some bad feelings within the congress.
Congress showed Billy and the Army Air Corps and cut their budget.
The Navy got the money and some smart forward thinking types got behind the idea of the Aircraft Carrier.
All the other nations that had ACs thought of them as floting airfields.
The US Navy saw them as weapons of war, for offense.
During the 1930s our cash strapped nation built the best Carriers, they went way over budget, ever.
Our were made to survive.
All other Nations ACs were built on the cheap, ESP the Japaneese ones.
"Kindling wood soaked in gasoline" was a quote I recall.
At the onset of WW2 these AC were the only "state of the art" weapons we had. Every thing else was obsolete and outclassed by our foes.
So lucky for US we had brave men willing to fly crappy airplanes and use faulty torpedodes on a vastly superior enemy fleet.
These men died wholesale.
I think that the lesson we learned at Midway is this.
Never be unprepared and weak.
Something that is becoming forgotten today.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Guyman,
Great Carriers, lousy torpedoes!
Thanks Ron!
James D. Hornfischer published a new book in March, Neptune's Inferno: The U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal. Anyone read it?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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Yeah, its weird. The Japanese had great planes (offensively) and great torpedoes, but really crappy small arms.
Of course they went from fighting with swords and armor to trouncing the Russian fleet in less than 40 years!
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zBrown
Ice climber
mercenario de merced
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++ Unbroken
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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What they were lacking in small arms they sure made up with nerve!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
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Yeah, or they were brainwashed into believing that they had already given their lives to the Emperor.
Like I said; Carnage And Culture. Give it a read.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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This is slightly OT but, I just finished reading "With the Old Breed" a great read about some of the USMC battles in the Pacific. It was one of the books that "The Pacific" was based on.
It was amazing to read about the bravery and tenacity on both sides.
Eric
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Cragman- I thought so too. I had an uncle who was there, but he died prior to me discovering my interest in history. How I would have loved to talk to him about his time in the Pacific.
The men and women of that generation were amazing. I am still in awe of everything they did. Eric
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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Too bad that the way most Americans thank them is by becoming fat and stupid.
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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While perhaps not as important as the battle of Midway, my father was radar operator on a troop transport at the battles of Iwa Jima and Okinawa. This month he turns 91! Gotaq love these guys!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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My late Aunt Grayce's BF in Seattle is still entombed down in the USS Arizona at Pearl.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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I read Ghost Soldiers because I was so impressed with Blood And Thunder.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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Naval Aviation.... Nothing else quite like it.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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ME Climb, that book by Eugene Sledge is absolutely brilliant!
There are very few men like that anymore.
Got my copy signed by one that is still around.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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My Uncle Joe (USMC) Sawyer was captured in the south Pacific, I am not sure were. He, like many others were treated extremely poorly and contracted malaria which ended up taking him years later.
I know it is the European Theatre, but Uncle Bill Casey (Army) was captured in North Africa, and later he and two Canadian commandoes escaped from German POW camp in Italy and made their way back to Allied (British) lines.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
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I always liked brass pipes.
Anybody catch the cameo appearances of Tom Selleck and that CHIPs guy?
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Thanks for the pic Ron. Not something you see everyday; or hear of for that matter.
Eugene Sledge was the good friend of one my hommies dad, AC Levi. They grew up together in Mobile. Mr. Levi was trained as an aviator but never flew in combat.
Although Sledgehammer came home and became a biology professor he struggled with his experiences from the war.
Imagine that. I think dying in combat would have been easier.
SL Rat: did you fly off of Carriers?
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Drifting way inland but "the Chief" would be proud for me to post his picture.
Another friend's dad, who on his first mission as a bombardier, was shot down and spent the remainder of the war in a German POW camp. His dental fillings popped out with his parachute at high altitude due to the extreme temperatures.
Unlike his compatriots in the Pacific, his captors provided good care for him as a POW. With the survival rate of B-17 crews being what they were, he said he more than likely would not have made it home. The German doctors replaced his fillings; but did not provide any numbing agent.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Smoke on the Water" was written in 1944 by Zeke Clements and recorded shortly thereafter by Red Foley.
In 1941, the same year Red made his film debut with Tex Ritter in the Western "The Pioneers", he signed a lifetime contract with Decca Records resulting in his first #1 country hit Smoke On The Water in 1944. It topped the charts for 13 consecutive weeks in 1945, he was the first major performer to record in Nashville.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Ron: Indeed! Thanks for sharing the brass crescent wrench. Quite the artifact.
I know some here have mentioned the book "The Rising Sun" by John Toland.
I think I have read it 3 times. Gives a better idea of what was motivating the Japanese, while still providing a great history of the war in the Pacific.
Of Course I still enjoy my ancient copy of:
Guadalcanal Diary is a memoir written by war correspondent Richard Tregaskis and published by Random House. The book recounts the author's time with the United States Marine Corps on Guadalcanal in the early stages of the pivotal months-long battle there starting in 1942.
Tregaskis relates combat and conversation in an immediately accessible vernacular, taking care to cite the full name, rank, and hometown of each of the Marines he encountered over the weeks he was on the island.
The book was so well received at home upon publication, and spoke such volumes on the camaraderie amongst the Marines, that the USMC still makes Guadalcanal Diary required reading for all officer candidates.
In 1943 the memoir was made into a film of the same name starring William Bendix, Richard Conte, Anthony Quinn, and John Archer, marking the film debut of Richard Jaeckel
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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The last from Red Foley:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSRE30pnF0o
Red Foley ~ Peace In The Valley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvA-_msZs0U
Hank Williams Jr. ~ I Was With Red Foley (The Night He Passed Away)
Through careful analysis, I decided that would be a YES, Wow, hard to imagine; esp a night landing. Nothing to compare it to except not losing control of a big rig when having to slam on the brakes; which is no comparison at all.
↓↓↓↓
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired in Appalachia
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SL Rat: did you fly off of Carriers?
265 arrested landings...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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Jeez, even totaled together Bird, Warren and I haven't been arrested that many times!
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Jun 10, 2012 - 08:35am PT
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USS Iowa makes final journey to become a floating museum in San Pedra, CA
More information on the Iowa got to:
http://www.pacificbattleship.com/
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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From AP article:
World War II pilot and battle of Midway hero James Muri dies in Montana at age 93.
On June 4, 1942, Muri piloted one of four B-26 bombers that took off from Midway Island to attack a Japanese fleet planning to invade the U.S. outpost about 1,100 miles northwest of Hawaii.
Japanese fighter planes shot the bombers with machine guns and cannons. Muri's bomber was struck and three crewmen were wounded, but he launched a torpedo at the aircraft carrier Akagi and then flew the plane down its flight deck to avoid the ship's guns, which were all pointed outward.
Muri flew lower than treetop level above the deck of the massive ship, reasoning that skimming the flight deck gave him the best chance to survive.
After the plane crash-landed on Midway Island, officials counted more than 500 bullet holes in the bomber, the Billings Gazette reported (http://bit.ly/WrZkTu);.
Muri and his crew were awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. In 2003, Muri received the Jimmy Doolittle Award for outstanding service to the U.S. Army Air Corps in a ceremony in Washington, D.C.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Admiral Nimitz ---- One of the greats, that does not get the credit he should.
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Gene
climber
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Admiral Nimitz ---- One of the greats, that does not get the credit he should.
Interesting thought although five stars, signing the surrender document on behalf of the USA, and having his name on on a class of floating airports is impressive. If anything, MacArthur gets much more credit than he deserves.
g
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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^^^^^^
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I am a great admirer of Nimitz. Any bridge-playing admiral already has a tremendous advantage in my book. It's too bad the nastiest East Bay freeway has to bear his name.
I would not dis MacArthur, though. His bravado and seeming self-aggrandizement makes him easy to dislike, but his south Pacific campaigns were brilliant, and his island-hopping strategy was much less costly of life than those of other commanders. He actually thought the Navy's strategy had too much of a "damn the torpedoes" disregard for loss of life. Personally, I don't see how Nimitz had a choice in capturing, say, Iwo Jima.
One point of disclosure: my father, who was 40 when they bombed Pearl Harbor, served in the Sea Bees during WWII, and participated in the invasion of Guam, where the Sea Bees built an airfield under fire using bulldozer blades for shields. He had the highest regard for Nimitz.
John
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Man you must be bored, Why don't you post up some old school first ascent photos? That would be cool, I'd like to see some
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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will a top rope shot be satisfactory?
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Excellent comeback Tobia!
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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guido, how else to respond to such? Hopefully a little humor will do.
I dare say this drawing of Jim Muri's decent on to the flight deck of a Japanese aircraft carrier is as impressive as any first accent photo I've ever seen.
jim, thanks for the kamakazi clips.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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SL Rat, how does one carrier landing compare with soloing up and down Patio Pinnacle?
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Cool Pics.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Chief,
I had a pal that served on the Enterprise at the same time you were. I don't think he saw much daylight; not even sure of what he did.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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↑↑ tour de force?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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John, I could not disagree more about MacArthur. David Halberstam's brilliant book on Korea lays it all out. Didn't care about his men.
I've met virtually no man who served under him who didn't want to kill him.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Muri the Montanan--fock yeah!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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For an excellent take on MacArthur I recc a reading of just published, "The Generals," by Thomas Ricks. Then again, "The American Cesar," by William Manchester is an excellent bio on the man.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Feb 11, 2013 - 10:49am PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
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Today is the 71rst anniversary of the Doolittle raid.
Regarding General MacArthur;
he built his reputation fighting in the Pacific.
He is most notable for his actions in the Philippines.
He was sacked by the President for insubordination, and his return home started a national controversy.
And that was ARTHUR MacArthur!!!
He had a son named Douglas who ended up doing the same things!
(they were probably both jackholes to their men)
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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thanks for the source tgt.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I just read recently that Midway was the first naval battle the Japanese had lost in over 300 years.
No wonder they thought themselves unbeatable.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
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I dunno about 300 years, but they got understandably cocky after soundly defeating the richest and biggest country in the world (Russia).
Midway was THE pivot point in the Pacific War. Defense and offense permanently changed sides.
But I was thinking of Woody again today and The Last Stand Of The Tin Can Sailors.
Now that was an amazing battle! Destroyers and destroyer escorts taking on the biggest battleships in history and getting in so close that they couldn't depress their huge guns enough to fire on us.
(OK, too bad the other ships could)
The first planned kamikaze attack (it sank a "jeep" aircraft carrier)
The US Navy's finest day.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Last of Tin Can Soldiers; what a book (as with Neptune's Inferno)! I'm not sure who went through more hell, the guys in on the island or the tin cans.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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I recommend the book "Shattered Sword" by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully.
It tells the tale from the Japanese point of view, and it is full of details.
The bottom line is this: we won cause our carriers were better built to survive battles and we displayed flexibility with our battle plan while the Japanese stuck to the "BOOK".
The battle didn't win the war with Japan but it evened the count of Carriers with them. This allowed the USA to take the war to them, at Guadalcanal, sooner rather then later.
The Japanese never built a single new Carrier in the war, we started pumping one out almost every other month... that's equipped, planes, pilots, trained seamen.
No Japanese naval planner could have ever imagined that.
Midway was won by guts and bravery and the US industry.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Admiral Nagumo hesitated and lost his flagship and ultimately the war in five silly minutes.
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