Solo Belay Anchors: Inverted or Not? Which is Better?

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Thom

Trad climber

South Orange County, CA

Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 23, 2006 - 04:23pm PT

Searched the forum but can't seem to get a definitive answer. The issue seems buried in a billion other posts about other topics making it hard to get a consensus of opinion.

Some invert the anchor; some say doing so is a PITA and don't bother; others advocate hauling 150lbs or rocks up the wall with you to act as a surrogate belay partner (somehow, I believe Pete's actually serious); some use screamers at the clip-in point, some don't; some invert the anchor and hold it in place with a prusik; others use rubber bands(?).

So...

How do you set up your belay anchor while soloing?

Any chance of a semi-educational, semi-serious discussion on the topic? Pros? Cons? Photos?

And while I'm thinking about it, inverted or not, how do you guys mitigate that potential factor 2 fall onto the belay while getting to your first piece?

Cheers,
Thom

ADK

Trad climber

Reno, Nevada

Apr 23, 2006 - 05:17pm PT

Thom,
I researched this same question a few weeks back. What I found is that there are two preferred methods based on whether or not you have a pig.

With a pig.
Tie your pig into the power point and let it hang 2-5 ft below the powerpoint. Then tie the lead rope into the pig with a locker and run the rope through one a biner attached to one of the anchor pieces. This will prevent a factor two and will give you a dynamic belay.

W/O a pig.
Attach a screamer to the pp and invert the anchor by using a klemheist or a clove hitch on a sling attached to the first piece. Tie the lead rope into the POWERPOINT and then about 3 feet up tie it into the end of the screamer. This way you will be belayed dynamically by the screamer but if the screamer were to fail completely you would still be tied into the power point.

Hope this helps. Check out Jared Ogdens big wall book for some pics.

Edit: I dont like using rubber bands to invert the anchor because in the event of a fall the band breaks and your anchor is no longer inverted. I think the clovehitch is probably the best method...just make sure that its on a long sling so that the first piece doesnt become your anchor point.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Apr 23, 2006 - 11:55pm PT

I think alot depends on what your first few pieces are.

If they are sketchy, I'd probly want it rigged for downward pull, and pray I didn't test it out factor-2.

But if the gear is decent I will rig it up and clove the first peice w/screamer.

The thing is that if you clove a piece you are basically setting yourself up for another factor two fall on you next move, and are inveitably shortening the lenght of the shockloaded rope for a few moves at least.

I cloved the "Nipple" bolt mid pitch, then promptly fell like a dumb-ass three moves later. It hurt, but luckly not a factor-2. Kinda sucked.

On the Trip I fell cloved to the first bolt off the belay on a screamer, fell mid pitch and the screamer did not deploy. Nice soft 30 foot fall that didn't even weight the belay.

I also fell once with my miss-pig haulbag as a belayer. She gave me a nice soft sport belay catch, I liked it. I put the powerpoint low so piggy can really catch some air.

I haven't soloed much, but I guess I fall alot or something.

WBraun

climber

Apr 24, 2006 - 12:04am PT

One must be very careful when using clove hitches in these types of aplications. If the clove hitch and biner hit the rock just right it can cut the rope.

It has happened ...... and the man went to the base.

pyro

Trad climber

stoney point,ca

Apr 24, 2006 - 12:34am PT

thom hello!

Be serious, complacent annchors equal dead climber. take as long as you have until all layers are uncovered.

solo is roping the route, how fun! ego builder too!

if I had to haul four hundred pounds I would'nt be worried, because sheaves can weight. all stations have'em, "Bomb-proof" placements. use two (8mm) cords per station one for you and the other for "mrs piggy"(god I love her!). Don't "hook" a counter weight-(bad mister Danger). remember, your cord is working upsides-down soo use a butterfly( equaly weights it off). clip the first piece too "shock prevent loader". rope bucket's will make you thirsty if the line ain't clean. use the big mouth combined locker, "mr wallace" to join any P-point. Say "TIT'S", because it's tightly done right!

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Apr 24, 2006 - 12:36am PT

thx Werner! I'll remmember that. cheers to the fallen.

Thom

Trad climber

South Orange County, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2006 - 01:13am PT

Yikes! Haven't used the clove-hitch method; definitely won't use it now.

How 'bout a prusik on a long sling tensioned from the 1st piece? Anyone?

Thx Werner!

Mike Libecki

climber

the moment of now

Apr 24, 2006 - 01:35am PT

Whats the question here. Math. Make it bomber. Force direction, just cover it, make it bomber. Easy math.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Apr 24, 2006 - 01:37am PT

ok, so if cloves cut when smashed into the rock....what do you use for such application instead?

I'm confused now.

this clove hitch cutting when biners hit the rock is all news to me...

ADK

Trad climber

Reno, Nevada

Apr 24, 2006 - 01:42am PT

Yeah...Werner could you describe how that has happened?

The other method is to use a klemheist or autoblock on a sling to create tension from the first piece and orient the anchor.

Mike Libecki

climber

the moment of now

Apr 24, 2006 - 01:44am PT

Solo is solo. Use lockers, duct tape, get creative. Find what is safe and make it happen. Solo can be super safe. Think outside the box and find new techniques and make em bomber. Go set up solo anchors on tons of different routes, set up haul bags and weight and see what happens. You will be glad you did and will know for sure what is going on.

ricardo

Gym climber

San Francisco, CA

Apr 24, 2006 - 11:38am PT

all my solo's have had bolted belays ..

therefore ..

1 - sometimes i just put the pig on the PP -- put a screamer on the first piece (which is usually a bolt on the belay) ... and the go.

2 - sometimes i dont put the pig on the PP -- just a screamer on the first piece and go ..

.. except for the 1st pitch, i never rig my anchors for upward pull, since they are bolts .. and almost always bomber bolts. -- i figured they are ommidirectional.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Apr 24, 2006 - 11:51am PT

nice vague beta Mike L.

ChrisW

Trad climber

boulder, co

Apr 24, 2006 - 01:25pm PT

Nice, thanx's for the Beta Werner and the heads up. I think Mike L's advices is good. It's the only way. Get off the internet and go get real live experience. Also, John Long's two anchor books are good to look at on rest days. These anchors apply to Top ropes, Lead climbing, Big Walls and Solo rope climbing. Seems like alot of people these days don't even start with setting up Top rope Anchors. Straight to the Big Walls. Good thing for bolts, Hey.

PDHMAN

Trad climber

Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395

Apr 24, 2006 - 01:29pm PT

THOM:
And while I'm thinking about it, inverted or not, how do you guys mitigate that potential factor 2 fall onto the belay while getting to your first piece?

Whether soloing or not, I ensure when establishing a natural anchor, that I have a placement above so I can place a bomber piece or two within 2-3' of the anchor (power point) as an immediate "Directional" which then negates the factor 2 fall. I will also do my best to establish an equalized "V" anchor to promote both vertical and downward equalized protection in case of a factor 2 fall. All my soloing has been on Aid routes. I have always used a SOLO-AID and the system of tying off every 3rd or 4th piece of bomber pro. Been doing this for the past 15 years, climbed some very sketchy, challenging stuff, taken many falls and am still around to spray about them. So I guess this system works for me and will continue to use it.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Apr 24, 2006 - 03:11pm PT

If the first move of the belay is really sketchy I would lower the powerpoint, try to fix it down with a drectional peice or counter weight, then clip the highest and best piec on the anchor with the lead rope.

then it is not a factor two fall.

and in general I try to make it a habit not to whip on the first move off the belay.

There are some weird pitches on El Cap like the 5th of ZM that have hooking straight off the belay where you'd really need to watch your ass and get creative. Also on free moves...

pyro

Trad climber

stoney point,ca

Apr 24, 2006 - 03:21pm PT

what's crack'n

The clove hitch, bad but quick method to tighten up the line. however, the weight of a fall seized the clove tight. a friend suggested prusik.

fareastclimber

Trad climber

Hong Kong & Wales

Apr 24, 2006 - 04:10pm PT

What about the caver's butterfly?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 24, 2006 - 04:26pm PT

With the possible exception of using it as a solo belay [sliding it through a locker as you lead] there isn't much application for a clove hitch in solo climbing systems. The butterfly is much easier to untie and better in virtually every application.

If you have specific questions you want answered, please write them out, number them and I'll answer them. The questions above are too general, and I'm a bit pressed for time today to wade through everything.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 24, 2006 - 05:12pm PT

Still waiting for Werner to provide some details.

Perhaps an ANAM reference?

Mike Libecki

climber

the moment of now

Apr 24, 2006 - 05:36pm PT

What is vague about the math being 100%, there are several right ways, all the anchors on each pitch are going to be different for a solo application, especially if off the beaten path. Practice, practice, practice setting up systems of solo anchors on tons of different anchors anywhere. There is not a simple answer for every belay anchor for solo specifically, as an anchor should be 100% no matter what. It is one thing to talk about it and visualize, another to go and set up systems with friends and learn about solo anchors, force direction, etc. There are many ways to do this right and safe. After tons of practice, it will become a non-mystery. Set up solo anchors on any pitch, crag, etc., with friends, throw a haul bag to imitate the force of a falling climber, and have some fun. I learned a ton this way. Saved my life I am sure.

WBraun

climber

Apr 24, 2006 - 06:01pm PT

Here are is an example of how the clove hitch "can be" dangerous at certain times.

The 1st photo shows standard clove hitch with the bulk of the hitch on the outside and being pinched against the rock.

Next the clove hitch flipped and the bulk of the hitch is pinched against the rock.

Both these crude examples show the potential for the rope to be damaged or cut severely in the event of a fall.

The next two show alternatives with much less rope held static by the use of a knot on the biner.

Butterfly knot and directional figure of 8

Just something to watch out for as these are just potential scenarios ..........

PDHMAN

Trad climber

Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395

Apr 24, 2006 - 06:03pm PT

Clove hitch...BAD JUJU! Also, make sure the locker is locked, eh?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 24, 2006 - 06:16pm PT

Probably be good to have it ACTUALLY clipped to an anchor too...

LOL

Thom

Trad climber

South Orange County, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2006 - 10:00pm PT

Mike,

I dunno 'bout those clove-hitched water bottle keepers man—seem sketchy to me.

You might want to consider the far more secure two-eared bowline-on-a-bight butterfly followthrough with a triple overhand munter fisherman's as a finishing knot. I would then suggest that you connect the cord itself to your harness using a square figure-eight granny followthrough (again finishing with the triple overhand munter fisherman's).

Cheers,
Thom

Edit: almost forgot; make sure everything is equalized and oriented for a downward pull to the side. T.

Kristoffer

Big Wall climber

Blue Jay, California

Apr 24, 2006 - 11:49pm PT

Mike, I would definitely do as Thom said but you might also want to lash down those tails... god knows some bad stuff could happen if one of them were to "snag" on something, but other than that carry on!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 25, 2006 - 12:09am PT

"Lash down those tails"? Is this still a climbing thread?

ADK

Trad climber

Reno, Nevada

Apr 25, 2006 - 12:30am PT

Thanks Werner! Lesson learned

I think your fig 8 is a little screwy though ;)

poop_tube

Big Wall climber

The Point of No Return

Apr 25, 2006 - 01:24am PT

Here is what I do.

Say you have 2 bolts. Put a tripple legth sling on them with a "magic x" in between. This can work for your downward when you go back down to clean the pitch. Then when you want to lead off of the anchor just flip the anchor up. The "magic x" will readjust itself for upward pull. Then clove hitch, prusik, or whatever TIGHT onto the first bomber piece with a screamer beeing sure the carabiners aren't going to cross load. Use 2 slings for the anchor if you want to be redundant.

Try it out and the key is ingenuity.

Cheers!

Kia

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Apr 25, 2006 - 01:28am PT

ADK,

that's a directionally oriented figure 8, still quite strong, and a slick trick.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Apr 25, 2006 - 03:23pm PT

Thanks for the tip, and clarification Werner, I will avoid cloves on lead altogether in the future. You may have just saved my life someday...

Regards,
Matt

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 25, 2006 - 04:32pm PT

Ay. If the butterfly loop gets chopped, the knot will still hold.

Alan Doak

climber

boulder, co

Apr 25, 2006 - 06:05pm PT

I use the butterfly all the time (great knot), but the directional figure 8 is new to me. I have a spectra sling handy that I'm practicing the knot on... it looks topologically correct, but when I pull on it, the knot capsizes and turns into a slipknot!!

This seems like a really bad idea. Am I missing something?

Alan Doak

climber

boulder, co

Apr 26, 2006 - 04:57pm PT

bump.

Any replies on WB's directional figure of 8? This knot capsizes under load and turns into a slip knot as far as I can see. The idea of this happening, causing rope to burn against rope, seems pretty bad to me.

Kristoffer

Big Wall climber

Blue Jay, California

Apr 26, 2006 - 05:10pm PT

Alan, the exact same thing was happening when i experimented with the directional figure 8, I thought I was maybe just tying it wrong but now that i hear the something was happening with you it concerns me.

ADK

Trad climber

Reno, Nevada

Apr 26, 2006 - 05:26pm PT

Its tied wrong. The exit strand should exit where the bite does. That way the loop around the bite will cinch down the exit strand under load....just a guess.

John Mac

Trad climber

Littleton, CO

Apr 26, 2006 - 05:33pm PT

I not sure how to post pics otherwise I would post it here. In the meantime, this link is helpful re the f8 debate:

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/F8Knots.htm

See the inline f8.

Cheers, John

Kristoffer

Big Wall climber

Blue Jay, California

Apr 26, 2006 - 05:57pm PT

ahh i see, I was previously just looking at Werner photos and tying the knot just by sight and placing it in the same configuration as it was in his photo (bight facing away from the anchor) but now that i looked at the instructions you provided and i oriented the knot the opposite way (bight facing towards the anchor) it worked, but however i still found that if I face the knot the wrong way it and pull down on it, like you would if you were falling on that anchor it inverts it and turns it into a slip knot.. So i guess i might still be tying it wrong or maybe you just need to make sure bight side of the figure eight is facing the anchor.. i could be 100% wrong here, maybe some one who is much more savvy that I could clear this up...

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 26, 2006 - 06:47pm PT

Dude! Quit torturing yourself, and tie a butterfly. It's stronger than an eight on a bight [not sure about Werner's fancy 8]

Kristoffer

Big Wall climber

Blue Jay, California

Apr 26, 2006 - 07:03pm PT

oh for sure Pete, i would definitely use the butterfly over the figure eight but i just wanted to clarify about that eight.

WBraun

climber

Apr 26, 2006 - 08:46pm PT

And here is the directional bowline.

Alan Doak

climber

boulder, co

Apr 27, 2006 - 11:47am PT

Pete, I definately agree that the butterfly is a superior knot. I'm just trying to figure out if WB is trying to get us all killed.

Thom

Trad climber

South Orange County, CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2006 - 09:55pm PT

Alan & Kristoffer,

You are probably tying the knot correctly; hard to know but...

Werner's knot is actually a modified version of an inline-eight.

The true inline eight requires that the tail of rope exiting the knot (upward in Werner's photo) should be exiting the knot on the same side as the loop, not the opposite side.

NOTE: Both versions will become a slip-knot if weighted opposite their intended direction of pull. Werner's version is just less likely to do so.

The key is understanding that this is an INLINE knot (the loop aligns itself parallel with the rope), intended for DIRECTIONAL pull (unlike the butterfly which is omni-directional).

The direction of pull on the inline-eight should be opposite the direction of the loop. Our discussion here relates to inverting an anchor and maintaining it in that orientation. This can be done using an inline-eight oriented DOWNWARD from your first piece toward the anchor and intended for an UPWARD pull should you fall (Werner's knot is oriented upward for a downward pull). Essentially, the loop and its' tail point TOWARD your anchor point; the single tail is the load end (to the climber).

A useful knot for certain applications.

Cheers,
Thom