Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 59 of total 59 in this topic |
rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Apr 20, 2006 - 11:26am PT
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Wow, that's scary. I knew not to clip two pockets side by side. That's rather obvious. But I always assumed (with out thinking it through evidently) that as long as I could see my biner cleanly in the end pocket it didn't matter what I did with short clipping into other pockets too. I was wrong. Maybe time to get one of the metolius thingies that have the chain style stitching.
Glad you put the video up and glad BD made it.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Apr 20, 2006 - 11:55am PT
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The Metolius thing (PAS) is wildly overpriced... but I bought one anyway. Turns out it's great and I use it all the time. Sometimes I can almost trick myself into believing it's worth what they charge for it, usually at a sketchy hanging belay or at my computer after watching little videos like that one.
--->bob
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
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ditto on the PAS. At first I figured it was just a gimmick, but once I tried it I was sold. Awesome on walls, moving around on fixed lines, rapping with heavy pigs - any situation where you need a 'bomber' connection point you can move around without becoming totally disconnected and adjustability is key.
I used to used to use two full strength 'leashes', but the PAS with two (keylock) lockers has them beat hands down. (less CF'y, lighter, and just as versatile).
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Gramicci
Social climber
Ventura
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Apr 20, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
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Good Video, Thanks.
IMO, just use a full runner or quick draw you would have probably had with you anyway. Kind of redundant having all this extra gear with you, clutters up the what should be a simple rack for free climbing. If you can stayed tied in (always the best) use a clove hitch for adjustability. Eh?
These things are great for aid though or at the bivy.
my 2 cents since I just saw guys doing a face climb with a full rack of friends and hexes. oh ya, with a top rope too.
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kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
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Apr 20, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
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My 5 year old grandson is going to love this "magic" trick! Scary! I too use a PAS.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 20, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
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I do two things to prevent this:
1) I always use two biners, a main locker that's always at the end (see below) and a second normal biner (it's the one I keep my shoes on, so I always have it on my harness when I'm climbing) for height adjustment.
2) my main locking biner is always girth-hitched to the last loop. so even if that biner did get clipped to a second loop, I'd be safe.
The PAS seems like too much of a mess for me. plus all those single points of failure wig me out...
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ADK
Trad climber
Reno, Nevada
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Apr 20, 2006 - 02:22pm PT
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Ive felt daisy chains were dangerous for years. On top of their inherent danger is the fact that theyre preferred gear for sport climbers. They should force consumers to watch this video.
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JR@METOLIUS
Big Wall climber
BEND, OR
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Apr 20, 2006 - 05:39pm PT
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We were happy to see the BD daisy chain video clip which so succinctly illustrates the daisy chain misuse issue. Metolius developed the PAS (Personal Anchor System) about three years ago for exactly this reason. For years we had seen this and other misuse problems associated with daisy chains and decided to develop a product which would alleviate potential disasters. Although the PAS is a simple looking product, we spent about two years designing and testing various webbing combinations, lengths, and strengths.
With regard to the pricing response about the PAS, one must ask the obvious question. “Is my life worth $29.95?” We feel at least some of you out there think so! Sure there are cheaper alternatives that work, however knowing the exact strength of all items in your climbing gear chain is of paramount importance. In other words, there should be no unknowns in the safety chain as the consequences are far too serious.
Why does the PAS cost what it does? Yes, we too feel it is quite a lot and we were initially concerned about the price. However at the end of the day we decided to do it anyway and provide the service to people who want to eliminate unknowns in their equipment chain. We are very pleased with the results and have received a ton of positive feedback from climbers who have switched over to the PAS.
Standard webbing isn't strong enough to achieve the strengths needed. Therefore we had to design a custom webbing and order 5000 yds (per color) of it just to start the project (that’s a fair amount of PASs). It requires an extra heavy duty nylon/dyneema blend (16mm) as the loops are in contact with one another throughout the chain. This system creates a lot of friction (when under load) and needs a very robust webbing to achieve the strength number. 4050 lbf. is the PAS's rated strength, stronger than the stringent UIAA harness standard of 3600 lbf. There are 6 hot cut parts that are combined with a total of 62 bar tacks and a box of straight stitching. Plus one small label. Then it gets inspected and every tack and stitch is recounted. Once it passes inspection it goes onto a well thought out piece of packaging which is die-cut and specifically shows how the PAS is used. Without the packaging we felt like people wouldn't understand the reasons why daisy chains were being misused. The packaging also shows how the PAS is to be used correctly. At the end of the day our margin is quite low, but we feel like it is an important enough item that we needed to do it regardless of how much we actually made. We hope this answers a few of the questions you all have had.
Cheers,
Metolius Climbing
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 20, 2006 - 06:07pm PT
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Metolius Speaks! I was just thinking the other day about how you guys were the only major company I never saw have any kind of presence on the boards.
Thanks for the explanation. I've used the PAS and liked it, just not enough to pony up the dough, as I don't carry a daisy for free climbing anyway. My main objection was that the pockets are too far apart to use as an aid daisy. I know that's not what it's for, but it would solve some of the problems with regular daisies. I guess more and smaller pockets would make it cost even more, but I dunno, I'd buy it. We pay twice as much for good aiders as cheap ones, no reason why daisies shouldn't be about the same.
I suppose that a lot of the aid community has gone over to adjustables, but dang it I like my daisies and my fifi.
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Sir Run-it-out
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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Sometimes I wonder whether we take these things to the extreme.
Does anyone know of any real world failures by this mechanism? If so, how many loops were blown? All runners are held together with bar tacks, albeit some have more than others, so blaming a weakness on the presence of bar tacks is a bit deceptive.
One could also show a video of the sling itself separating, and then say, "this is why you should always use TWO slings!"
It is possible to over-engineer a product. It doesn't have to be perfect, merely good enough. Of course, the real question is what is "good enough." Hence the question, what does it take to blow out the stitching between the loops on a daisy, and has this ever happened in real life?
Also, asking the question "Is my life worth $29.95?" is so jejune. If that's how the price point is set, it should be marketed at a significantly higher level.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 09:33pm PT
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I think the idea is that you double clip as shown in the video. You then only have yourself on belay with one daisy. You partner then runs it 10 feet up w/ no pro and whips directly onto you - fall factor 2. That might blow the bar tacks.
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 09:47pm PT
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It really isn't THAT hard to blow a bartack out of a daisy - the pockets are rated at what, 4-5kn? Would you belay off a single #3 stopper? (they have about the same rating!)
Chris Harmston ran some tests on daisies awhile back, and he found that sometimes when the tacking for the pocket ripped, it took out some of the nylon too, and weakened the entire thing. (oops, there goes that whole 16kn thing).
Daisy chains are body weight only!
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rocketsocks
climber
Bellevue, WA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 10:13pm PT
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Seems to me that a daisy chain is a piece of equipment which can be very dangerous if used in the wrong way. And using it wrongly can be very easy to do without noticing. How exactly does this distinguish it from any other piece of climbing equipment?
If you back-clip a draw it could unclip in a fall and kill you. If you don't tie your knot exactly, precisely right on a two rope rappel it could roll off one of the tails and kill you. If you don't set your pro well it could pull out and kill you. If you don't set your anchor right during a rappel it could fail and kill you.
Just as with anything, if you can't trust yourself using equipment safely then don't use that equipment. Though I'd say that the overall move away from gear that is easier to screw up is a good one, but it's easy to go overboard.
For myself, I think the lesson is to never, ever, ever rely on any anchor that does not have dynamic rope in the system except for the rare, and temporary, situations where you are only applying your own body weight and the only possible falls would be extremely low factor. In other words: never climb on or belay off a static anchor.
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Apr 20, 2006 - 10:44pm PT
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(i'll preface this post with the fact that i've been drinking, but allas i still have a view on the topic and will try to think through my bourbon fog to iterate it)
the only time i use daisy's is when leading aid or jugging. obviously this doesn't apply to leading aid, but it does to jugging. i've been awaiting this video after seeing it mentioned in the bd catalog, and now after seeing it i understand the risk that i didn't see before. of course when i setup my jugs i shorten them up on the same lockers that anchor the ends, the exact way the video says i shouldn't.
so my first thought is "godamn, i can't believe i have to buy another set of lockers.....". my second thought is that i really don't, i think if you shockloaded your jugs enough to blow a bartack on a daisy you just might have some bigger problems to deal with.
so really this only applies to the above mentioned anchor situation; where a free climber anchors with his daisy and then procedes to belay a punter taking his last factor 2 fall.
but really, what kind of nucklehead anchors to the belay with a daisy when the rope is already there and easier to begin with? we spend bucks on superlight biners, count grams on cams and ditch every unecessary piece before leaving the ground and then bring along a massive chunk of nylon that we don't need in the first place??
i just don't get the need for daisy or the PAS. except maybe the PAS as a bigwall bivy 'ultrasafe convience piece' as mentioned above. but even then, if you were ever to utalize it high strength rating you'd shockload the hell out of your anchor and precous vital organs. i suppose its good for those sport climbin fellas cleaning bolted anchors, but thats not my cup to tea.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 10:57pm PT
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I know someone that zipped through all the bar tacks during a big wall. Luckily he was clipped in correctly. I really like the video and I do use the two biner system. (I also like the PAS, it is just not part of my budget this spring.)
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et
climber
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Apr 21, 2006 - 12:03am PT
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Did a course with Rigging for Rescue and they sold me on the Purcell Prusik. Just takes a bit of 6mm cord and you have an adjustible leash. The best part: it is actually dynamic because the prusik takes time to grip the cord. There are many more uses as well. Here is a link that describes it pretty well. http://www.pbase.com/phil_box/purcell_tie_in
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pyro
Trad climber
stoney point,ca
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Apr 21, 2006 - 12:11am PT
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Most new wave aid climbers don't even go with daisy. Yates has the "quiker picker-uper".
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Mike Libecki
climber
the moment of now
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Apr 21, 2006 - 12:19am PT
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Anastasia,
Not questioning the validity of someone zipping through ALL of the bar tacks on a daisy, but curious to know how exactly this happened. I have maybe broke a couple on different daisies after bounce testing them senseless on thousands of bounce tests. Just curious how this happened?
Thanks.
Mike
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forever once
Trad climber
Berkeley,ca.
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Apr 21, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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Hey Zander, did I show you my daisy chain.
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Kevin
Social climber
Oak-town
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Apr 21, 2006 - 02:31pm PT
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Yah, just was teaching a toprope/anchors class last week on the same topic.
My personal feeling is: leave the daisys and POS at home-
either be clove hitched in the anchor with the rope that is already attached to your waist since you are climbing, or if rappelling, go with some type of prussik/friction hitch back up-
The only place daisys have is for attaching your jugs to, or when aiding climbing, in which either case you are tied in or backed up on a rope.
I'm not going to trust my life to a piece of webbing, either as a primary or secondary attachment point.
Daisys/PAS are for stupid sport climbers.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 21, 2006 - 03:51pm PT
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Done I don't know HOW many walls. Didn't have much use for daisies before.
Now I REALLY don't.
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tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
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Apr 21, 2006 - 04:54pm PT
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For cragging, I use a daisy for a personal anchor. To mitigate the pocket clipping issue, I attach the locker at the end with a slip knot.
Works for me.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Apr 21, 2006 - 04:59pm PT
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BDs web site says 3 kn or 670 ft lbs per pocket. It also says "not to be used for protection or anchors" or something to that effect. I guess that means use rope for anchor and daisy only for fine adjustment. I keep learning stuff even after all these years :).
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 21, 2006 - 05:56pm PT
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"Is your life worth $29"
Come on. Thanks for the detailed explanation of why you charge 30 bucks for 4 sewn loops, but if I really looked at each piece of gear I own (all of which my life depends on at some point or another) I'd probably have to quit climbing because I paid so little.
I got that neutrino on sale for $5!
My life is currently worth at least $3K, which not coincidentally, is roughly my investment in gear.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 21, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
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My daisys cost a few bucks and have knots. I think it is pretty strong. PAS... Pussy Ass Softy
edit-just googled this PAS thing... LMAO... I can't believe you spent 30 dollars on that! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Apr 21, 2006 - 06:25pm PT
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I've seen lots of newer climbers who regularly use daisies for free climbing. They have these things always attached to their harnesses.
Just like Gramicci, I'm baffled. I don't care if its a Metolious super duper dasy or some other product. In most free climbing situations you just tie-off with the rope to the anchor. A clove hitch works for quick tie-offs, changing & organizing racks and leading through. Isn't this alwasy safer?
When making a series of raps, a runner or two works fine.
Keep it simple.
Aid climbing is a different beast altogether....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 21, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
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Sketchy, agree with everything you said except for aid.
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hollyclimber
Big Wall climber
Seattle, Wa
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Apr 21, 2006 - 08:05pm PT
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People who use their daisy OF ANY KIND as their only attachment to the anchor are dumb. I tie in with the rope. Twice. Ropes seem pretty bomber to me.
I have ripped a few loops on a daisy chain-sitting in a ledge with Mundo. We were pretty wasted so it took until the second time that it broke and dropped us a bit before we dumped out our boiling water and removed the daisy chain from our ledge.
:)
hgb
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 21, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
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I use a daisy freeclimbing to attach to the anchor at just the right distance for efficiency and comfort so I can get the weight off my feet and free up my hands.
I back it up by clovehitching the rope to the anchor and generally flake the rope over the rope when I belay the second up.
I commonly lead most the pitches so the daisy acts as a temporary tie-in when my partner comes up, we switch rope ends (with the rope flaked over it) so the rope is all flaked and ready to go. I find this much more reliable than flipping the rope over onto their tie-in and I hate getting caught short on belay. This is a fast way to lead in blocks.
Anyway, I'm very mindful of the weakness in double clipping daisies and always nag my partners about it if I see them doing it. I tell em to either use a second biner to snug up the length if they need to adjust, or clove/girth hitch the locker in the end loop so it doesn't matter if they double click.
There are a number of other advantages/efficiencies in using daisies for freeclimbing, mostly multipitch, rescue, and rappelling, but I don't have the time or inspiration to write them here.
Just don't assume because it's not part of your system that it's somehow lame and stupid, because it's not. We have different ways of doing things.
I use adjustables for aid climbing but they are too weak for freeclimbing applications.
Peace
Karl
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Apr 22, 2006 - 12:13am PT
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Like Karl, I use the daisy in the same manner. I have two biners on mine the locking in the farthest loop which I clip into the anchor. I then use the second to shorten it up by going from a loop to the locking biner. If I go loop to loop it is never with the locking. I then use the rope as my secondary achnor.
The only time I use a daisy alone is on a rap as I can quickly clip in and the adjust the length using the same method as above. Works fine.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Apr 22, 2006 - 04:22am PT
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Hey Mike,
I don't remember the details, but I'll ask him again.( I just remember being shocked at the sight of the daisy chain.) I'll get the story straight and send you an email.
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pFranzen
Boulder climber
Portland, OR
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Apr 22, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
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Thanks for posting that. I'll admit that I used to incorporate a daisy into my anchors when I was first starting out, but I've learned the error of my ways.
I always point new climbers to the Petzl site, especially this page: http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Conseil=25&Activite=14
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tico
climber
SL, UT
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Apr 24, 2006 - 10:42pm PT
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I've used a yates rabbit runner in lieu of a daisy for several years now, just girthed through the harness. It's adjustable via a clove hitch.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 25, 2006 - 12:15am PT
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Simple.
Clear.
To the point.
Nice job Russ.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 25, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
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"I've used a yates rabbit runner in lieu of a daisy for several years now, just girthed through the harness. It's adjustable via a clove hitch."
Cloved dyneema? Do you have a biner or a stopper knot on the end, or the other end clipped into the biner or something? A single clove on the slick stuff sounds like a recipe for a snail retreat to me.
Russ, ever done that test with dyneema? Nylon seems to hold up (must be why yates uses it in screamers), but I've heard that the space age crap can really blow out. Please advise...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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Apr 25, 2006 - 12:28pm PT
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No Dyneema, Flexolean, Spectra, Cooltard, Rivulon, Webdex, Overnards, Vulvatron, n00burite, or any other exotics. I just stick with the basics. Nylon is your predictable friend.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 25, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
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Heh, wasn't suggesting using the supertat, just breaking the sh!t for fun
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Apr 25, 2006 - 12:40pm PT
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I was on the nose a few years ago, using a black diamond daisy and leading through the changing corners. I bounced on a piece and the daisy chain ripped apart on the non-bar tacked side. It was pretty strange.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 25, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
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nOOburite?
Dare I ask?
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tico
climber
SL, UT
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Apr 25, 2006 - 07:08pm PT
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"Cloved dyneema? Do you have a biner or a stopper knot on the end, or the other end clipped into the biner or something? A single clove on the slick stuff sounds like a recipe for a snail retreat to me."
Nope, just a single clove. No appreciable slippage. Try it some time.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 26, 2006 - 11:47am PT
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well .. BD has had a warning about not clipping more than one loop at a time on their daisies forever.. (hey I actually read the instructions!) ..
.. i am sorry that people still misuses this equipment ... gotta wonder how many accidents were due to this? -- (haven't read any that atttributed the accident to misuse of daisy in ANAM)..
.. lastly as aid climbers, we all know that daisies are weak and can blow .. does anyone here clip into their anchor only with a daisy .. (hopefully not) .. use the rope, its already there.. and its very strong.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 26, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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I'm not saying it would slip with normal use, I clove stuff all the time with mammut runners. What you're doing is fine if backed up with the rope, but since the failure mode of most knots in dyneema tape is slippage at relatively low loads, I wouldn't hang the whole meat sack off of this system.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 26, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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The question was posed:
"Does anyone here clip into their anchor only with a daisy? (hopefully not) .. use the rope, its already there.. and its very strong?"
WTF is a daisy for if it can't hold 10 times ones body weight?
This is just stupid. A statement like the question would mean a daisy is worthless.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Apr 26, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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"Also, asking the question "Is my life worth $29.95?" is so jejune."
I learned a new word today!
Anybody seen the new Mammut 6mm runners? Fondled those in a shop the other day and experienced significant shrinkage. Be afraid.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Apr 26, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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Isn't this old news? Don't shorten a daisy by clipping into two or more loops? I use a daisy to clip into the anchor, if there is one, when I first get there. I carry it shortened but make sure the biner is clipped into only one loop when I attach it to the anchor. Then I tie in to the anchor with the rope. The daisy is redundant until I take the anchor apart. It's the last thing I unclip before leaving.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:51pm PT
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Holy frig! I so did not get that! Thanks! Watch the video!
[I have been using adjustable daisies for years, however]
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JAK
climber
NC
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Apr 28, 2006 - 01:05am PT
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Ok, firstly a disclaimer:
I'm a total baby at this, been climbing about 4 months now, mostly on toprope or following sport routes lead by someone else. I'm as green as can be, so bear in mind that if I ask a completely moronic question, I come by it honestly.
Anyway, in the rare instances when I have had to clip into an anchor point thus far (mostly to neaby bolts, cold shuts, etc. when rigging or cleaning an anchor) I've typically used a 12mm Dynex runner with a locking biner on each end, one through my harness hardpoints and one into whatever's anchoring. Both biners have been clipped into the runner, and then biner-through-biner shortened if necessary (typical sling/runner shortening).
Yay? Nay? The runners are rated at 22kN and they're the weakest link in the "chain" (harness excluded). I mean, I understand it's not the most versatile/convenient solution in the book, but it's worked fine for me and I see no reason to fix what ain't broke.
Oh, and to the guy who swore he'd "never trust his life to a pieace of nylon", never run some webbing around some natural anchors for a toprope setup? I mean, just asking, as the mind do wonder.
Anyhoo thanks for the vid and feedback in advance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2006 - 01:25am PT
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It's all relative. A rope is a piece of nylon right?
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JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
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Apr 28, 2006 - 01:26am PT
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Well yeah, I'd agree, but I'd also think a kN is a kN...
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tico
climber
SL, UT
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"I'm not saying it would slip with normal use, I clove stuff all the time with mammut runners. What you're doing is fine if backed up with the rope, but since the failure mode of most knots in dyneema tape is slippage at relatively low loads, I wouldn't hang the whole meat sack off of this system."
I think I failed to explain it properly; the rabbit runner is girthed through the waist/leg loops, then i use a locker at the other end for clipping in, and adjust the length with a clove, either on that same locker or another biner. But I'm always in to the end loop of the rabbit runner.
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Dusty
Trad climber
up & down highway 99
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Interesting topic, but unless you're in the next-to-last loop on a daisy, there's no way in hell you're going to generate enough force to rip multiple sets of bar tacks, unless you're belaying a couple of simul-climbing Sumo wrestlers factor 2-ing onto the belay, dipped your daisy in sulfuric acid, Naty light, or King Cobra, or borrowing gear from Chongo.
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david yount
Trad climber
West Coast and some East Coast
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May 22, 2006 - 05:40am PT
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That video by Black Diamond is very educational. Likely almost no one had figured out that topological nightmare; it was a surprise to me. Almost like a magic trick.
Girth hitching a biner to the final pocket is the easiest way to completely prevent this startling magic trick when using a Daisy Chain.
But the topology required for that magic trick to work is strict. A single twist to the right or a single twist to the left, or multiple twists either direction will not allow the single biner to become disconnected from the Daisy Chain after all the bartacks are blown between the additional pocket clipped and the final pocket. The only way this failure mode can occur is if there exists strict unique exacting topology. But rarely do I observe daisy chains racked or employed without twists in them.
Though the threshold / activation force of approximately 3kn (?) can be achieved by a climber at a belay who has decided to climb upward and then who subsequently slips and falls, in the process of destroying one section of bartacking an amount of energy is absorbed and each subsequent pocket is secured with another section of bartacks.
Black Diamond makes a 15-pocket 15mm (?) model (spectra / dyneema / dynex ??) and virtually always I select pocket 8 for a comfortable stance below my anchor matrix. There exist 7 pockets between pocket 8 and the final pocket, 7 sections of bartacking. The energy required to fully destroy one section of bartacks is significant, and the fall may be arrested before the final pocket's bartacking is fully destroyed.
Finally, although bounce testing aid placements with tattered Daisy Chains is known to overcome the bartacking, I've not yet heard of a free climber at a belay busting through bartacking on a daisy chain in reasonable condition. As Mike Libecki asked, maybe Anastasia can encourage the mentioned climber to post their direct experience?
This seems almost like identification of a theoretical issue that is not a problem in reality, clipping the last pocket biner to another pocket to shorten the tether.
Girth hitching a biner to the final pocket should become Standard Operating Procedure - SOP - for those that wish to use Daisy Chains to secure to the anchor.
And far wiser when using a Daisy Chain thusly: don't climb up from the stance while the shortest tether between climber and anchor is not the climbing rope, or just don't climb up while secured to your anchor matrix. If you switch to the Metolius PAS or the adjustable spring-cam-buckle daisies or go back to using double-length runners to tether yourself to the anchor, though you won't have to contend with the (highly unlikely) catastrophic magic trick caused by clipping multiple pockets on a Daisy Chain (remember to girth hitch the biner in the last pocket!), you still have to deal with the fact that in order to destroy the bartacking a sufficiently severe slip and fall needs to occur and any tether to the anchor (other than the climbing rope) will transmit huge loads to the anchor pieces.
Once you're secured to the anchor don't climb up from your stance!
In the final analysis I agree with an older post by Chris Harmston, technical climbing equipment is designed, manufactured, bought and used which will fail, it all may fail. If it was designed to protect us always then the smallest cam might well be 8-inches width of protection and we couldn't lift a rack to free climb. Sir-Run-It-Out is on the same wavelength:
It is possible to over-engineer a product. It doesn't have to be perfect, merely good enough. Of course, the real question is what is "good enough." Hence the question, what does it take to blow out the stitching between the loops on a daisy, and has this ever happened in real life?
As well as rocketsocks:
-Seems to me that a daisy chain is a piece of equipment which can be very dangerous if used in the wrong way. And using it wrongly can be very easy to do without noticing. How exactly does this distinguish it from any other piece of climbing equipment?
The Purcell Prusik (new name for old rigging) is a sweet idea but I've tried it and found it very limiting in ultimate adjustability, it in no way matches the full span of adjustability as the 15-pocket Black Diamond Daisy Chain.
Further, it offers no discrete pockets which can be very useful for racking water bottles, packs, cameras, over tight shoes, gear, etc.
Karl Babba seemed to steal my very own thoughts:
-I use a daisy freeclimbing to attach to the anchor at just the right distance for efficiency and comfort so I can get the weight off my feet and free up my hands.
-I back it up by clovehitching the rope to the anchor and generally flake the rope over the rope when I belay the second up.
-I commonly lead most the pitches so the daisy acts as a temporary tie-in when my partner comes up, we switch rope ends (with the rope flaked over it) so the rope is all flaked and ready to go. I find this much more reliable than flipping the rope over onto their tie-in and I hate getting caught short on belay. This is a fast way to lead in blocks.
[my second passes the gear to me by clipping the pieces in an orderly way on the pockets of my daisy chain, I've never liked passing gear hand to hand, greater chance of something getting dropped and this way I can re-rack in the order I prefer, it also allows us each to concentrate on what we're doing individually without requiring the other to wait]
-Anyway, I'm very mindful of the weakness in double clipping daisies and always nag my partners about it if I see them doing it. I tell em to either use a second biner to snug up the length if they need to adjust, or clove/girth hitch the locker in the end loop so it doesn't matter if they double click.
-There are a number of other advantages/efficiencies in using daisies for freeclimbing, mostly multipitch, rescue, and rappelling, but I don't have the time or inspiration to write them here.
-Just don't assume because it's not part of your system that it's somehow lame and stupid, because it's not. We have different ways of doing things. [ahmen]
David Yount.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 22, 2006 - 10:50am PT
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Another nice feature of using a daisy as part of your tie-in system is this
I jus have my second hand over the gear by clipping to different loops of the daisy. That way they are never just holding the piece waiting for me to quit fiddling with the last one. Just one more little time saver that adds up in the end
Peace
Karl
I'm always preaching daisy safety to my partners but it's worthing noting again that this weakness has rarely if ever translated to an accident. What you really really must guard against are mistakes made when tired or not paying attention. Eating a powerbar or Gu before you bonk is the greatest safety gear.
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the Fet
Trad climber
: morF
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May 22, 2006 - 11:21am PT
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I have gotten away from using a daisy as my primary attachment to the anchor due to the high peak forces that can be generated if you fall on a mostly static line. (e.g. if you fall even 2 feet onto an anchor with a static connection, it generates a lot of force).
Above it was mentioned don't climb above your anchor (because if you fall on it, it can be a factor 2 fall). That's good advice but sometimes I will still want to do it. e.g. while belaying the second I'll reach up and set the first piece off the belay to save a little time.
So I now almost always use the rope as my primary anchor. A clove hitch is easy to adjust to get the right length to rest on, and if I want plenty of room to move around (e.g. changing from standing to sitting on a ledge) the rope won't come up short like a daisy sometimes will. I'll still use the daisy for setting up a rap/rescue.
Looking at the forces generated it's amazing how much better a little elongation is for a climber. A 4 foot fall on a static daisy could rip your anchor out, but a 100 foot fall on a climbing rope could be no problem. Elasticity is your friend.
YMMV. Of course you can use gear any way you want, but personally I try to do things as safe/efficient as possible, so I don't have to think about them, and I'm best prepared for an unexpected situation (which although rare, can happen). e.g. your partner starts the new lead, climbs up 10 feet, breaks a hold, falls sideways, and lands on you, it would be very sketch being tied in with a static line in that situation.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Same place as you, man...... (WB)
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May 22, 2006 - 11:58am PT
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In Davids fillibuster he wrote: Once you're secured to the anchor don't climb up from your stance!
Never happen. Moving around in the station is why we use a daisy there in the first place. Many times you have no choice... stuck rope, high piece giving drag, etc.
Somewhere in all that text you said something about how unlikely it would be to rip enough pockets to escape the system. The reality of this is that you don't need to rip them all (not that you even could). If you are clipped in real short and fall, with clipped in meaning the end loop of the dasiy with no clove etc, your fall distance is short, thus not enough force generation to rip all the pockets needed for catastrophic failure. But if you are clipped into the end loop and the next to the end loop is your perfect adjustment, then you climb up and fall, the longer tether coupled with the failure of the next to the last pocket will free you from the system.
We are rapidly approching
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