Hey, that's MY gold up there! [OT]

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Dos XX

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 24, 2012 - 11:11am PT
I never would have thought it'd happen in my lifetime. This afternoon at a news conference to be held at the Museum of Flight in Seattle, a private business venture backed by James Cameron (of Titanic and Avatar movie fame), Larry Page and Eric Schmidt (current and ex-Google CEOs), plus X-Prize impresario Peter Diamandis will be announced, which will endeavour to locate and recover (mine) precious metals from asteroids in space.

I need to give @klimmer credit for first alerting me to this news story:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/briancaulfield/2012/04/20/planetary-resources-co-founder-aims-to-create-a-gold-rush-in-space/

Which got me thinking... as the discoverer of two main-belt asteroids (2004PC27 and 2004PX42), would I be entitled to all, or a share of anything valuable that might be found on either of these objects?

Here's a link to the discovery photographs for 2004PC27 (allow a few seconds for the .GIF file to load) 2004PC27 is marked by the red cross-hair.
http://www.francisquito.org/animation_2004PC27.htm

and here's the discovery photo for 2004PX42 (now named Johnmuir), also marked by the red cross-hair
http://www.francisquito.org/discoveries.htm


...anyone know a good space lawyer?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 24, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
Apparently there are just a few men who have legally captured an enormous amount of the mineral rights for our Earth's Moon, so there is precedence in this regard. I'll have to find the website and resource. I mean really, how can this be legal???
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/02files/Cosmic_Conspiracy2.html
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html#Water
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Rights.html





I still believe this is what we should do and I've said this before . . .


Return to space. Go back to the Moon and push onto Mars with "Constellation." Mine the NEAs that threaten Earth and mine the Asteroid belt. There are a plethora of resources there for us to utilize to expand into space. Go get it.

“The asteroids that are potentially the most hazardous because they can closely approach the Earth are also the objects that could be most easily exploited for raw materials. These raw materials could be used in developing the space structures and in generating the rocket fuel that will be required to explore and colonize our solar system in the twenty-first century. By closely investigating the compositions of asteroids, intelligent choices can be made as to which ones offer the richest supplies of raw materials. It has been estimated that the mineral wealth resident in the belt of asteroids between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter would be equivalent to about 100 billion dollars for every person on Earth today. “
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?why_asteroids




http://ngec.arc.nasa.gov/files/ngec_proceedings/speakers/Lewis_Asteroids.pdf

Mining The Sky: Untold Riches From The Asteroids, Comets, And Planets [Paperback] John S. Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Mining-Sky-Untold-Asteroids-Planets/dp/0201328194/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295314967&sr=1-1


This is what we should do. We can do a World of Good. So why aren't we?






Well, there are some things I hadn't thought of yet until just recently . . .




I just got History Channel's Ancient Aliens Season 3, and I just watched the program on Ancient Aliens and Gold. Apparently , ET has a real affinity for Gold (Au). They like the stuff and like to use humans as slave labor to mine it. (Dang, ET is lazy.) Very useful industrial metal and very useful for space technology, electronics etc. Nothing else like it.

However, I'm thinking ET already has discovered the riches of the Asteroid Belt, millions or even billions of years ago. Are we gonna try to jump their claims? It looks like things could get really ugly real fast. Can you imagine Asteroid discoverers claiming their Gold (ie "DosXX"), The US Government and other space fairing nations, and ETs all in a Court of Law at the United Nations trying to work-out and hash-out all the legal ramifications of this? Lol.

Then ET just gets upset and pulls an "Independence Day" scenario on us. Game over.

Uh, oh. Here comes Solar System War I (SSWI) and its all about resources. Where have I heard this before? Dang, nothing ever changes.


Lol. ;-)


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 24, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
A quick google of "Glomar Explorer", Howard Hughes project to mine the mineral nodules off the ocean floor, which only turned out to be an elaborate ruse via cover story from the CIA so that they could pick up a Sunken Soviet Nuclear Sub, would have you question if this is real or hyperbole....The whole world was running around to go get Mangenese nodules and other such nonsense. New companies were formed and funded to run out and get their own manganese nodules and their share of the riches they knew Hughes was sure to get. 3rd world countries extended their borders and front page headlines decried this theft of 3rd world resources by rich nations. blah blah blah - meh...I'll believe it when I see it.

Good luck with the royalty payments though.

http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2010/11/project-azorian-and-the-hughes-glomar-explorer-mission/

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb305/index.htm

Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 24, 2012 - 12:50pm PT

Did anyone else have their early formative years molded by Heinlein's "The Rolling Stones" (aka Space Family Stone)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones_%28novel%29
Dos XX

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
This was supposed to be funny... and now apparently a reality.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 24, 2012 - 01:31pm PT

Apr 24, 2012 - 09:50am PT

Did anyone else have their early formative years molded by Heinlein's "The Rolling Stones" (aka Space Family Stone)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones_%28novel%29




I was mining on the Moon with Major Matt Mason.




Still wish I had the entire above set. I've recently purchased a Major Matt Mason figure through Ebay for nostalgic reasons. Good times as a kid with MMM and watching the Apollo missions to the Moon. Good memories.


Major Matt Mason is hopefully gonna be a major motion picture with Tom Hanks as MMM . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Matt_Mason_(film);

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:23am PT
Here is the company website that is pushing forward to do this . . .

http://www.planetaryresources.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/PlanetaryResources?feature=watch


Website Asteroid Mining Mission Revealed by Planetary Resources, Inc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fYYPN0BdBw&feature=player_embedded


[Click to View YouTube Video]



Planetary Resources Team Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aozEVAhSkdM&feature=channel&list=UL


[Click to View YouTube Video]



*Abundant Resources in the Asteroid belt.

*Mine the ones that are NEOs/NEAs and that threaten Earth.

*Mining Asteroids off-world means we aren't environmentally harming our "Homeworld." (The Sierra Club and other thoughtful environmental organizations that help protect our planet's health shouldn't have an issue).

*Gets us back to man-based space exploration (as well as more robotics), doing science, and searching for resources (which is all better than shooting at one another or blowing each other up in endless war). We should be doing things that inspire and that we do best.

*This will be incredibly inspirational for all mankind to do so, with huge incentives and benefits all around.




Cool. I'm excited.



Homeworld (The Ladder) by Yes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2AhjhYWDUM


[Click to View YouTube Video]


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:50am PT
The "Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies" will prevent such private activities. All activities in space must be under the active supervision of one of the signatory states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

If economic and environmentally-acceptable means are found to reach, explore and mine such asteroids, and return their metals to Earth, it'll be by agreement between governments, and under their control. There's too much at stake otherwise.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 25, 2012 - 01:03am PT
Just like any other corner of the universe; he who can get there first, and hold it with force, gets to own it.

Because, dang, we need more gold. I sure don't have enough. Get me suhmore right now!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 25, 2012 - 01:27am PT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

The treaty explicitly forbids any government from claiming a celestial resource such as the Moon or a planet, claiming that they are the Common heritage of mankind.[2] Art. II of the Treaty states that "outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means". However, the State that launches a space object retains jurisdiction and control over that object.[3] The State is also liable for damages caused by their space object and must avoid contaminating space and celestial bodies.[4]



The actual treaty . . .

Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies
http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/oosa/SpaceLaw/outerspt.html

The Outer Space Treaty was considered by the Legal Subcommittee in 1966 and agreement was reached in the General Assembly in the same year ( resolution 2222 (XXI). The Treaty was largely based on the Declaration of Legal Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, which had been adopted by the General Assembly in its resolution 1962 (XVIII) in 1963, but added a few new provisions. The Treaty was opened for signature by the three depository Governments (the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States of America) in January 1967, and it entered into force in October 1967. The Outer Space Treaty provides the basic framework on international space law, including the following principles:

    the exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries and shall be the province of all mankind;
    outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all States;
    outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;
    States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner;
    the Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used exclusively for peaceful purposes;
    astronauts shall be regarded as the envoys of mankind;
    States shall be responsible for national space activities whether carried out by governmental or non-governmental entities;
    States shall be liable for damage caused by their space objects; and
    States shall avoid harmful contamination of space and celestial bodies.





This is exactly what a few private citizens have been able to manipulate and work around. It forbids Governments (Nation/States), but not private individuals and Corporations apparently. That is how just a few individuals have the minerals rights for the Moon.

I don't agree with what they've done, but apparently it was legal???

Things will definitely have to be worked out.


What they were able to do . . .


Apr 24, 2012 - 09:37am PT
Apparently there are just a few men who have legally captured an enormous amount of the mineral rights for our Earth's Moon, so there is precedence in this regard. I'll have to find the website and resource. I mean really, how can this be legal???
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/02files/Cosmic_Conspiracy2.html
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Mining.html#Water
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Rights.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 25, 2012 - 01:50am PT
http://www.planetaryresources.com/2012/04/the-space-economy-a-modern-day-gold-rush-2/


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 25, 2012 - 02:09am PT
The "private citizens" you mention are all citizens of governments that have signed the treaty, and ultimately under those governments' control. Some might like to believe otherwise, but it's in all the governments and the international interest that any activity be orderly and managed. There may be a place for private entrepreneurs, but always under licence.

Some may claim that they 'own' the moon, but by existing standards of international law as it relates to terra nullius, only the US has a possibly valid claim to it, which it has not made.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 25, 2012 - 02:23am PT
Many others are concerned about this. I don't know the complete validity of this claim but its a definite concern.



http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/02files/Cosmic_Conspiracy2.html

Mining Connection #002
Who Owns the Mineral Rights?

Three people!!!

However, a loophole in Space Law allows individuals and companies to hold Mineral Rights on the Moon, Mars and other celestial bodies. Growing concern from Scientists that these rights may be held hostage have been alleviated by a three man North American team; Dr. Joseph Resnick, Dr. Timothy R. O'Neill and Guy Cramer (ROC-Resnick/O'Neill/Cramer team) who have acquired the mineral rights for 95% of the side of the moon that faces Earth, the polar regions and 50% of the far side of the moon. - Source

Dr. Resnick found the loophole in Space Law 25 years ago that allowed him ownership of all planetary bodies outside the "Third Planet from the Sun"... submitted this to the World Court at the Hague, and to the United Nations in New York City. In 25+ years no one has ever disputed Dr. Resnick's claimed ownership. Source

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
Just so that it's clear, my friends in the ark, and the guys on Apollo 20, already staked the backside of the Moon for me.

Any individual who thinks that she/he might make a legally valid and effective claim to an extra-terrestrial body or its resources without the active support of a government really is a loonie. If a single asteroid really contains the resources you mention, no government will allow any individual or corporation ownership or control of it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
So the Americans, Russians and Brits got together and decided how all this would play out, drafted a document and declared it "legal."

Now isn't that grand - and totally ridiculous.

As the man said, "Just like any other corner of the universe - he who can get there first, and hold it with force, gets to own it."

Simple as that.

JL
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
I'd read the Outer Space Treaty - which has been signed by more than 100 countries, including all those with a real presence in space - to mean that whatever happens in space, it'll be under the control of governments, and by international agreement. Not a lawless "wild west" scenario. Much like discussions of exploiting Antarctica, and the seabed. They may not be "owned" by any country, but no individual will be allowed to claim or exploit their resources.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
Nothing excites me like an ironclad failsafe business plan.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just letting you know there are individuals who have claimed mineral rights on the Moon.

Do I agree with it? No.

I think Asteroids (as opposed to planetary bodies) are gonna be another thing altogether though. Obama et al. are trying to push private enterprise to space. You think private enterprise is going to do so without incentives?

I don't think so.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
They can claim whatever they want, but we have yet to see a manganese nodule company pull it out of the ocean and make a buck, and that stampede started in the 70's.

Stampede on!
feynman

Trad climber
chossberta
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
Gold mining of hydrothermal vents is starting

http://www.nautilusminerals.com/s/Home.asp

I also think there is a reality show coming about ocean gold mining.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 27, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
Looks like NASA is giving Planetary Resources the thumbs up!




http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/nasa-applauds-private-plan-to-mine-asteroids

24-4-2012 05:34 PM EDT
NASA Applauds Private Plan To Mine Asteroids

NASA has finally weighed in on the ambitious plans revealed Tuesday by billionaire-backed private company, Planetary Resources, to mine near-earth asteroids using a fleet of robotic drill-bearing robots. NASA’s associate administrator for communications David Weaver provided TPM with the following statement:

“This project aligns well with our national space policies and goals. President Obama has set the United States on an ambitious path for deep space exploration, seeking to send humans to an asteroid for the first time and ultimately to Mars. As NASA leads this effort, we will certainly look to take advantage of private-sector resources and data. This commercial interest affirms our path forward – a path that relies on private-sector partnerships and innovation to reduce the overall costs to the taxpayer, create jobs and advance our space exploration program.”

Reported by Carl Franzen
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 27, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
Wired magazine always has good articles . . .



Tech Billionaires Plan Audacious Mission to Mine Asteroids
By Adam Mann Email Author April 23, 2012 | 7:45 pm | Categories: Space

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/04/planetary-resources-asteroid-mining/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 27, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
Loophole Could Allow Private Land Claims on Other Worlds
By Adam Mann
April 5, 2012 |  6:30 am | 
http://m.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/04/moon-mars-property/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 27, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
Asteroid Mining: To Infinity and Beyond, But What are the Legal Implications?
APRIL 26, 2012 18:40 MICHAEL J. LISTNER
http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/2012/04/26/commercial-space-leap-earth-orbit-legal-implications/
Dos XX

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
I guess I could get more worked up about my possible claim to mineral resources on the two minor planets that I discovered, except that Planetary Resources is apparently going to focus only on Near Earth Asteroids (NEAs) because of the lower energy cost to reach them. NEA's can be as close to Earth as a few million kilometers, or less, whereas 2004PC27 (now named Eliewiesel) and 2004PX42 (now named Johnmuir) are Main Belt asteroids, and are way, way out there. Today, April 27th 2012, 2004PC27 is 498 million km from Earth, and 2004PX42 is at a distance of 434 million km.



I am listed as a co-discoverer of a handful of NEAs, but I guess that means I'd have to share a claim to any mineral wealth :-(
Dos XX

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2012 - 11:20am PT

Interesting opinion piece at WIRED.COM regarding the legality of mineral claims on celestial objects.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/05/opinion-asteroid-mining/
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
May 1, 2012 - 11:34am PT
The only "mining" that will be effectively taking place will be the mining of all of the dumb f*#ks pocket books who are deluded into investing their cash into this spaced-out venture!!

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 1, 2012 - 04:11pm PT

Interesting opinion piece at WIRED.COM regarding the legality of mineral claims on celestial objects.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/05/opinion-asteroid-mining/




DosXX,

That is a very interesting legal opinion. The arguement would be in favor of the astro-miners extracting from an asteroid or planetary body. Perhaps not the whole asteroid (maybe or maybe not?), and certainly not the whole planetary body, but taking portions of it and claiming ownership seems to agree with space law.

Seems this can also can be applied to meteorite ownership issues found on Earth to some degree. Finders keepers. There is an arguement to be made here, while also considering the land ownership issues.

However, they fail to consisder who actually owns all of it and throughout the Universe without dispute -- GOD. And GOD gives to whom he wills. So who's going to challenge GOD's ownership? Lol.





Psalm 24 :1,2
The King of Glory Entering Zion.
A Psalm of David.
" 1 The earth is the LORD’S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it. 2 For He has founded it upon the seas And established it upon the rivers."

Deuteronomy 10:14
“To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.”
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
May 4, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
Some of that "gold" from up there ended up in Cali.

Worth $1000+ a gram.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17944373

The real story is in the vid at the link.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
May 4, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 4, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
This thread needs to be linked to the Sutter's Mill meteorite witnessed fall and now find ...


Tahoe Meteor
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1807497&msg=1815689#msg1815689


If you want a piece of this Carbonaceous Chondrites CM2, pieces are on EBay already. There is apparently a 2kg find for $700,000 buy now.


http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=230785770070
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
1-22-13

New company announced its getting into the Asteroid business just like Planetary Resources announced last 4-22-12. The new company is called
Deep Space Industries, Inc.


Asteroid-Mining Project Aims for Deep-Space Colonies
By Mike Wall | SPACE.com

http://news.yahoo.com/asteroid-mining-project-aims-deep-space-colonies-050627126.html



Is Space Big Enough for Two Asteroid-Mining Companies?
by Mike Wall, SPACE.com Senior Writer
Date: 22 January 2013

http://www.space.com/19380-asteroid-mining-spaceflight-competition.html


The startup of two asteroid-mining firms — along with the rise of private spaceflight companies such as California-based SpaceX — is a sign that humanity may finally be taking real steps toward the long-held dream of permanent space settlement, Tumlinson said.

"One company may be a fluke," he said. "Two companies showing up? That's the beginning of an industry."




TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 14, 2013 - 01:24am PT
A fly-by of resources

You have probably heard about the DA14 asteroid set to give the Earth a close-shave, tomorrow (15/2).

What you probably haven’t heard is that it may be worth nearly $200 billion, according to prospective asteroid miners, Deep Space Industries. Launched in 22 Jan, the company intends to do the same with Planetary Resources,another contender; harvest our space visitors' resources.

The prediction of $65 billion of recoverable water and $130 billion of recoverable metal, may be kind of a guess (the consistency of the asteroid is not clearly known); however it can clearly illustrate the abundance of other asteroids' resources waiting to be extracted. Deep Space Industries officials do not intend to go after the DA14, since its orbit makes it too difficult to chase it down.

"While this week's visitor isn't going the right way for us to harvest it, there will be others that are, and we want to be ready when they arrive," Deep Space chairman Rick Tumlinson said in a statement on Tuesday.

The whole idea of space mining involves reducing the amount of material launched from Earth to high-orbit. Current costs are at least $10 million to send 1 ton of material into orbit.

Space rock water could be turned into rocket fuel, and asteroidal metals could provide the basis for manufacturing a space industry, building spaceships and other human habitats. And all this off the planet. Deep Space plans to send robotic scout probes to potential targets in 2015, with sample-return missions shortly thereafter, and possibly beginning space mining operations in about 2020.

Info on the DA14 asteroid: http://on.fb.me/YX9I4i

Info on asteroid mining: http://on.fb.me/11GiKIq

-CHD

Source: http://www.space.com/19758-asteroid-worth-billions-2012-da14-flyby.html
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