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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 24, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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I was just looking at photos in the April issue of Rock and Ice, and there's a caption on one that says that the route was perhaps the "hardest climb in the US" when Dan Goodwin did the first ascent in 1984.
I've seen that statement about Grand Illusion at Sugarloaf several times, and I thought I had heard it about climbs at Tacquitz and Colorado. Has anyone out there ever compiled a list? So as not to be comparing apples, oranges, and orangutans, it might make sense not to include alpine climbs and pure sport routes, or to have a separate list for sport routes.
Going back 50 years, Gear or mixed gear/bolt routes:
1962?
1978 "The Grand Illusion", 13b/c, Sugarloaf California (Tony Yaniro)
1984 "Maniac", 13 c/d, Quoddy Head Maine (Dan Goodwin)
2012?
Edited on 3/28/12 to add Clint's link in a more obvious place:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/yos/hard.htm
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Mar 24, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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For historical perspective let's go back a little more than 50 years.
And for regional perspective substantial European climbs are presented in italics.
1918 The Wilder Kopf, Westkante in the Elbe Sandstone Mountains by Emanuel Strubich - 5.10c, (the world's hardest climb at the time)
1930 Javelin Blade at Hollytree Wall, Idwal by Jack Longland E1 5b (5.10)
1954 W. Face of Aiguille de Blaitiere, in the Alps, including the famous Fissure Brown by Joe Brown and Don Whillans - 5.11
1957 first V8 by John Gill who in 1955 introduces chalk & modern dynamics.
1959 the Northcut start to the Bastille in Eldo by Ray Northcut - 5.10d.
1959 first V9 and a freesolo FA of the Thimble overhang - 5.12a
1964 Konigshangel on Frienstein in the Elbe Sandstone Mountains by Fritz Eske - 5.11b
1965 Supremacy Crack in Eldo by Pat Ament - 5.11b
1970 North face on the Schwager in the Elbe Sandstone Mountains by Bernd Arnold - 11d
1974 Super Crack of the Gunks by Steve Wunsch 5.12c
1975 Psycho Roof in Eldo by Steve Wunsch - 5.12+
1980 Cosmic Debris in Yosemite by Bill Price - 5.13b
2008 Jumbo Love. Clark Mountain CA by Chris Sharma (5.15b)
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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2012 the "Splurginator" 5.15d, .... Vladimir Sergeyevich
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 24, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
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Ha ha, a search of Splurginator turns up links to a "hornybook" adult dating website. Werner's other avatar has been outed!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 24, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
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I know someone who almost got 'Splurginator' but they... Choked!
Going back in Dresden slippers and a rubber room tee....
But seriously ;
Pretty cool list Philo, what was the 1957 V8?
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Interesting list, Phil. Thanks!
Now we just need someone to fill-in between "Maniac" and that amazing reporting from Werner (always on the cutting edge) about the first ascent of "Splurginator".
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Mar 24, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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Philo's list is pretty good (source?). It represents the actual hardest climbs for various times.
Then there is the list of recognized hardest climbs. I'm too lazy to do the research but here is a draft for someone to correct:
Open Book 5.9 - Tahquitz, Robbins, 1950s
Grand Illustion, mentioned above
To Bolt or Not to Be, 5.14a, some French dude, 1980s
OOPs. lost interest. Next!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Mar 24, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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Maybe compile a list in ascending order of difficulty of the World Hardest Rock Climbs and have a parallel list in ascending order of boulder problems in order to see how they show an historical progress over time?
I remember in 1972 stopping at Split Rocks near Lyons, Colorado, going back to some obscure boulders, and standing in awe of what John Gill had done out there in the 60s. I know that Gill did a bunch of secret routes near Horsetooth Reservoir in CO that were legendary but unrecorded. Secret and hidden away. But there's no doubt he did some stuff that was way ahead of its time. Nice to see how they compare with the modern stuff.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 24, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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Cool - I added several climbs from Phil's list to mine:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/yos/hard.htm
The main problem is trying to figure out how to splice in boulder problems, topropes and highballs/solo.
The Thimble should probably be included.
What about Trice?
I left them all in, so if you don't count The Thimble, you can count some 5.11s done with ropes....
Here is my version of the "hardest climb in US", through 1984:
5c? (5.8) 1937 Mechanic's Route Tahquitz Dick Jones, Glen Dawson
6b (5.10c) 1949 Goodro's Crack Wasatch (UT) Harold Goodro
V8 1957 John Gill
7C (5.13d?, V9) 1959 Red Cross Overhang (original dynamic style) Jenny Lake, Tetons John Gill maybe too short to be considered (3-4 moves).
6b+ (5.10d) 1959 Bastille Direct Start Eldorado Ray Northcutt
7b+/7A (5.12c, V5) 1961 Thimble, North Face Needles (SD) John Gill 30' high.
6c+ (5.11) 1965 Son of Great Chimney Devil's Lake (WI) Pete Cleveland
6c+ (5.11c) 1967 Foops Shawangunks John Stannard
6c/7a (5.11d R) 1967 Superpin Needles Pete Cleveland
7c (5.12d, toprope) 1969 Bagatelle Devil's Lake Pete Cleveland
7b (5.12b) 1973 Kansas City Shawangunks John Bragg
7b (5.12) 1973 Paisano Overhang Suicide Rock John Long
7b+ (5.12c) 1974 Supercrack Shawangunks Steve Wunsch
8B (5.13d+?, V13) 1975 Trice (AHR) Flagstaff Mtn. (CO) Jim Holloway maybe too short to be considered.
7c+ (5.13a) 1977 The Phoenix Yosemite Ray Jardine
7c+/8a (5.13a/b) 1977 Phlogiston Devil's Lake Pete Cleveland
8a/8a+ (5.13b/c) 1979 Grand Illusion Sugarloaf (CA) Tony Yaniro
8a+ (5.13c) 1984 Maniac Quoddy Head (ME) Dan Goodwin
I have seen a lot of conflicting ratings for The Thimble (the above included!). The one I most remember is 5.12c from when people were trying to repeat it in the 80s.
Unfortunately a list like this is very sensitive to ratings....
Maybe Supremacy Crack 5.11b 1965 should be in there, but my understanding is that it was led with hangs, so that does not match up with the styles of the other climbs. Maybe in as a toprope.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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Interesting list in your link, Clint. Thanks!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Mar 25, 2012 - 12:02am PT
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Now wouldn't this make a popular coffee-table must-have climbing book with color photographs to illustrate it? Plus, a AAC grant to tour the whole world to do it! Deep pockets anyone?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 25, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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I have seen a lot of conflicting ratings for The Thimble (the above included!). The one I most remember is 5.12c from when people were trying to repeat it in the 80s.
I think the consensus difficulty is probably V4 or 5.12 a/b. Having only done it on top-rope however, I will readily acknowledge that the pucker factor would be way off the charts without a rope.
Curt
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 25, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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It would be interesting to see this done on a world basis. That is, the progressively 'harder' climbs around the world, perhaps distinguished by type of climbing. It might tell quite a different story, although the US udoubtedly led in the areas of aid/wall climbing, crack climbing, and bouldering into the late 1970s.
Also interesting that people were already doing V9 or V10 boulder problems in the late 1970s.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 25, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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Anders,
The link to my page is a world list - I just extracted the US climbs from it.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 25, 2012 - 12:35am PT
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Also interesting that people were already doing V9 or V10 boulder problems in the late 1970s.
Make that the late 1950s. Gill was certainly doing boulder problems in the V7-V9 range then.
Curt
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pbernard02
Trad climber
Chester, CA
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Mar 25, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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Now wouldn't this make a popular coffee-table must-have climbing book with color photographs to illustrate it? Plus, a AAC grant to tour the whole world to do it! Deep pockets anyone?
Yesss please.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 25, 2012 - 01:59am PT
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I also did the Thimble with a top umbilical cord, but I'd say .12a
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 25, 2012 - 10:26am PT
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The first ascent of Supremacy Crack was done as a toprope problem. It was later led by the first ascencionist, using pitons for protection! I was *present* for the toprope FA as the belayer. At no point did Patrick Oliver revert to *hanging*!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Mar 25, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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1918 The Wilder Kopf, Westkante in the Elbe Sandstone Mountains by Emanuel Strubich - 5.10c,
2008 Jumbo Love. Clark Mountain CA by Chris Sharma (5.15b)
10c to 15b in 90 years.
It would be interesting to see date and difficulty graphed more completely.
Then it could be shown when major advances really occurred.
Were they reallt during the "Golden Ages" or has there been a steady increase over the years?
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all in jim
climber
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Mar 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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1906 5.9 Teufelsturm, Oliver Perry-Smith, Elbsandstein
1910 5.10a Kreutzturm, Max Matthaeus, Elbsandstein
1949 5.10c Goodro's Crack, Harold Goodro, Big Cottonwood Canyon
1954 5.11 Fissure Brown, Joe Brown, Don Whillans, Alps
1961 5.12a/b (V5 - solo) The Thimble, John Gill, Needles
1967 5.12b Macabre Roof, Greg Lowe, Ogden Canyon (onsight lead?)
1969 5.12d (tr) Bagatelle, Pete Cleveland, Devil's Lake
1972 5.12b Kansas City, John Bragg, Gunks
1973 5.12c Paisano Overhang, John Long, Suicide Rock
1974 5.12c Super Crack, Steve Wunsch, Gunks
1975 5.12d Psycho Roof, Steve Wunsch (or Jim Collins?), Eldorado Canyon
1977 5.13a The Phoenix, Ray Jardine, Yosemite
1977 5.13a (tr) Phlogiston, Pete Cleveland, Devil's Lake
1979 5.13b Grand Illusion, Tony Yaniro, Sugarloaf
1984 5.13d Kanal im Rucken, Wolfgang Gullich, Altmuehltal
1985 5.14a Punks in the Gym, Wolfgang Gullich, Mt. Arapiles
1986 5.14a Ghetto Blaster, Wolfgang Gullich, Frankenjura
1986 5.14a La Rage de Vivre, Antoine Le Menestral, Buoux
1986 5.14a Ultimo Movimento, Manolo, Totoga
1990 5.14c Hubble, Ben Moon, Raven Tor
1991 5.14d Action Directe, Wolfgang Gullich, Frankenjura
1995 5.15b Akira, Fred Rouhling, Charente
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Mar 27, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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Donini must be away, as he usually chimes in on similar topics with various sarcastic comments--usually addressing the climbing prowess of the Anasazi. While to some extent I understand Jim's thoughts on the absurdity of such exercises, climbing itself is basically absurd and compiling such lists do provide considerable entertainment to those of us who are climbing obsessives. So I'll plunge in on this topic and further muddy the waters.
In addition to the complications of contrasting apples and oranges and pears that Clint mentioned above, there is also the fact that many "breakthroughs' (or possible breakthroughs) have been made at more obscure areas (or by obscure climbs at major areas) often places with sandbagged rating systems, first-ascender modesty and poor record keeping or a combination of these factors.
So, sticking to US climbs, I'll mention a few "contenders" over-looked above.
Vector climbed by Fritz Wiessner in 1935 is rated 5.8 in the current guidebook, but would be considered 5.9 in most other climbing areas. His even earlier ascents of Tower Crack(done as an off-width)(1934) and Wiessner Corner(1933) on the same crag are almost as hard and more sustained---all before Mechanics Route listed above as "America's fist 5.8"--though I believe that Albert Ellingwood climbed a chimney outside of Colorado Springs before the First World War that gets this rating today).
I also have a vague memory of another World War 2 era 5.9 (probably top-rope)done on an island in the Potomac near Caderock outside of DC--possibly done by Arnold Wexler. Any DC locals on here to fill in the details?
Jumping a couple of decades, John Turner's Repentance on Cathedral Ledge,NH climbed in 1958 is traditionally rated "5.9+", though one guidebook has it at 5.10c, maybe a bit generous, but closer to the mark. Turner stood on a piton for aid, but that was below the crux section. This route seems technically easier than the Northcutt Start in Eldorado Springs, but is more strenuous and was done a year earlier. Both are harder than Goodros.Also from 1959 is Chuck Pratt's Split Pinnacle layback in the Valley (major area, obscure route) rated 10c. But during the same '58-'59 time period John Gill climbed (often solo) a series of routes at Devil's Lake several of which were harder than any of these climbs, and some (Gill's Crack) are likely 5.11s, despite the more modest grades given in the Devil's Lake guidebook. (During those same years, Gill climbed a series of routes on the buttresses of Disappointment Peak out of Garnet Canyon in the Tetons. Again often climbing alone he sought out difficult sequences--boulder problems in the sky--ignoring easier options nearby, making it impossible for future parties to know if they are replicating his actual routes or to determine their true difficulties. However given that they were climbed by Gill in his prime, they were undoubtedly pretty "stout").
Greg Lowe's Crack of Doom (5.11c)in the City of Rocks was climbed in the early '60s,(record keeping at the City has always been pretty "lax") and I've heard that this was far from the hardest route he climbed during this period.
Finally, City Lights (512c)at Giant City,SoIll. was climbed by Joe Healy in 1975. While a year later than Supercrack--given the same grade--it was still a fine effort worthy of inclusion. And, is there anyone who has done both routes, so can say which is harder?
There are quite likely equally advanced little-known achievements in places like the southwest or northwest that should also be included on this "list".
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 27, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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One tiny detail is incorrect: the Split Pinnacle Lieback was first freed by Dave Rearick, if my failing memory doesn't fail me here.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Mar 27, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Was Alex Huber's route "Open Air" climbed before or after Fred Rouhling did "Akira"? Adam Ondra upgraded Open Air to 5.15a after making the second ascent (to put it more in line with routes such as Action Direct), so it may potentially be the first route warranting that grade.
There's been speculation (by I believe Ethan Pringle and others) that Chris Sharma's "Jumbo Love" may in fact be 5.15c. Also Sharma did not grade "First Round, First Minute" and there's been speculation it may be harder than the previously-estimated 5.15b grade.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 27, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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Make that the late 1950s. Gill was certainly doing boulder problems in the V7-V9 range then.
His boulder problems still amaze me -- and we're very fortunate to have him as a regular contributor on ST. His bouldering was several decades ahead of his time.
And Brokendown is correct: the Split Pinnacle Lieback was Rearick, after placing a bolt on rappel, in the early 1960's.
I wonder how hard the Pratt Chimney (1959) really is, since I know very few who've done it.
John
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Mar 27, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
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2008 Jumbo Love. Clark Mountain CA by Chris Sharma (5.15b)
Of course this is trivial, but Clark Mt. is in NV, not CA.
Also, wasn't Sharma's 'Realization' the first 5.15?
Cool lists...
Now, shouldn't we separate bouldering from roped ascents? Crack vs. face?
Naw....
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jfailing
Trad climber
Lone Pine
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Mar 27, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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To Bolt or not to Be was the first 5.14 in the US right? Put up by frenchman JB Tribout.
I imagine Just Do It was put up shortly thereafter, and that's even harder (like 5.14c?), so it may have momentarily been the hardest.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 27, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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It may be very hard to figure out the 'progression' of difficulty at any one established area, say Yosemite. Either based on perceptions at the time, or in retrospect. When you add innumerable areas, some as Alan says not well known, and a wide variety of rock and climb types, it makes it even more complicated.
For example, in 1975 Hot Line was trumpeted (in Mountain, anyway), as the first 5.12. Yosemite was the 'happening' area then, and so perhaps got more attention. But a 5.12, the left side of the Split Pillar in Squamish, was done in September that year. And as Alan says, other routes of that difficulty were done then or earlier.
1949 5.10c Goodro's Crack, Harold Goodro, Big Cottonwood Canyon
1954 5.11 Fissure Brown, Joe Brown, Don Whillans, Alps
1961 5.12a/b (V5) The Thimble, John Gill, Needles
1972 5.12b Kansas City, John Bragg, Gunks
1974 5.12c Super Crack, Steve Wunsch, Gunks
1975 5.12d Psycho Roof, Steve Wunsch (or Jim Collins?), Eldorado Canyon
1977 5.13a The Phoenix, Ray Jardine, Yosemite
1977 5.13a/b Phlogiston, Pete Cleveland, Devil's Lake
1979 5.13b Grand Illusion, Tony Yaniro, Sugarloaf A list that begs to be fleshed out.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 27, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
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No mention of the Lowe/Jones route on North Twin (oops this is in Canada)
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 27, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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They don't even have Kauk's "Magic Line" listed? (5.14b)
How homo is that?
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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It's kind of ironic that I was the person to start this thread, since I generally don't pay much attention to who is doing what grade, and the only interest I personally have in ratings is to give me a safety guideline when I go up on routes.
But after seeing that photo of a climb in Maine, with that "hardest" caption, it just struck me I did not recall ever having seen a list for gear protected climbs (either US or worldwide).
I kind of recall such a list in an article about the progression of grades in sport climbing.
To me, the interesting thing is not the grade itself, or the list itself but what were the factors (training, ropes you can actually fall on, shoes, cams, other athletic background, psychological mindset, etc.) that led to the route going from "can't do" to "can do".
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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The Grand Illusion is not at all a sport climb! I had the interesting experience of belaying a very good climber on his first time ever going up on it. Pre gri -gri's.
Anyway it would take someone knowledgable and organized, like Clint, to parse these lists into boulder problems, solos, sport, and then flesh them out with more info, like crack size, angle of steepness etc.
Rainy day internet research/playtime for someone?...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 27, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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You should write a TR, or at least tell us that story!
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bob
climber
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Mar 27, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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Yeah Phylp that could be a pretty fun story! Tap tap on the computer? Please.
Bob J.
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Mar 27, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
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Clark Mt. is actually in CA, not NV. It is ten miles west of the CA/NV border.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 28, 2012 - 01:37am PT
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Great list, Alan.
I have even done some of those climbs - I have added them (and others) to the list on my page.
Your comment about Greg Lowe reminded me that Jeff Lowe posted here that Greg climbed the Macabre Roof 5.12c in 1967. It's a 40 foot roof.
So it's another example of an early obscure and hard route!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=291953&tn=80
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Mar 28, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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Thanks for the correction re:Rearick leading Split Pinnacle. Something in the back of my mind said that it was someone other than Pratt, but I just went with what was on the FA list in the copy of the Yosemite guide that I grabbed off my shelf. Pratt did the FA, but the list. obviously, didn't include the FFA. Also, the 12c at Giant City is City Limits, not City Lights. I knew this, but the name of a fun Gunks route just "came out of my fingers", not the correct name. Though Macabre Roof in '67 preceeds both this and Supercrack by a good few years---and there may well be similar "well ahead of their time" accomplishments that have yet come to be generally known.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 28, 2012 - 10:49am PT
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Topropes of 11b in the mid 60s, 12 in the 70s? Come on.
Quoting Jello here:
"In the mid-1960s in Idaho's City of Rocks, Greg had been among the first to lead 5.12 on rock in classic, completely free style."
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 28, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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1972 5.12b Kansas City, John Bragg, Gunks
1974 5.12c Super Crack, Steve Wunsch, Gunks
1975 5.12d Psycho Roof, Steve Wunsch (or Jim Collins?), Eldorado Canyon
1977 5.13a The Phoenix, Ray Jardine, Yosemite
1977 5.13a/b Phlogiston, Pete Cleveland, Devil's Lake
1979 5.13b Grand Illusion, Tony Yaniro, Sugarloaf
-----
This section in here is full of holes.
English Hanging Gardens (5.12b) at Big Rock was done sometime around 1970. Paisano Overhang at Suicide (5.12c) was done in 5/73. Hangover (5.13a) at Tahquitz was in '77. Also, Bachar was doing a lot of hard things out at Josh circa '75 - '78. And there's plenty more, including Bridwell's Abstract Corner, 5.12a/b, at the Cookie, done around 1970 (??).
JL
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mar 28, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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Green Gulley of course.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mar 28, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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Yer awesome Toadgas. That DOES happen to be a slung solution pocket in front of my pal the Brave Little Toaster. I was pretty proud of that.
I think it was like 5.8d+, almost R, major funkness rating.
So yeah, pretty badass.....
Now back to our regularly scheduled spray...
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Mar 28, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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1869 John Muir, Cathedral Peak! Love that guy...a visionary AND a climber
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
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John,
Thanks for the additions.
> English Hanging Gardens (5.12b) at Big Rock was done sometime around 1970.
added.
> Paisano Overhang at Suicide (5.12c) was done in 5/73.
already had it, but not the letter grade (mea culpa, I could have checked Mountain Project)
> Hangover (5.13a) at Tahquitz was in '77.
added, using 1978 from Mountain Project.
> Also, Bachar was doing a lot of hard things out at Josh circa '75 - '78.
1978/3 - FFA(TR) of Leave It To Beaver 5.11d - Joshua Tree
1978/5 - FFA(TR) of Equinox 5.12d - Joshua Tree
1979 - FL of Leave It To Beaver 5.11d - Joshua Tree
1980/3 - FA(TR) of Baby Apes 5.12b - Joshua Tree
Hard, but after his elbow injury in 1976 he dialed back the extreme difficulty.
from "John Bachar timeline"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=898272&tn=0
> And there's plenty more, including Bridwell's Abstract Corner, 5.12a/b, at the Cookie, done around 1970 (??).
It's in the guidebook as 5.11d, 1971, Jim Bridwell, et al.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 28, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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> Also, Bachar was doing a lot of hard things out at Josh circa '75 - '78.
1978/3 - FFA(TR) of Leave It To Beaver 5.11d - Joshua Tree
1978/5 - FFA(TR) of Equinox 5.12d - Joshua Tree
1979 - FL of Leave It To Beaver 5.11d - Joshua Tree
1980/3 - FA(TR) of Baby Apes 5.12b - Joshua Tree
Hard, but after his elbow injury in 1976 he dialed back the extreme difficulty.
from "John Bachar timeline"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=898272&tn=0
> And there's plenty more, including Bridwell's Abstract Corner, 5.12a/b, at the Cookie, done around 1970 (??).
It's in the guidebook as 5.11d, 1971, Jim Bridwell, et al.
--
Clint, those ratings are not accurate, IMO.
The only people believing Leave it to Beaver is 5.11D are those who have top roped it 50 times. This route is rarely flashed, no beta, even by solid 5.13 climbers.
And the 5.11 rating for Abstract Corner is from the early 70s when 5.12 didn't exist. Have someone from this list go up there now and do it.
Also, if you're going to include the Thimble, then you have to include things like "So High," which is probably 5.12c/d without a cheat stone, and which Bachar did around 1975. Along with countless other super high ball problems.
Not to mention Gill's Crack, in Boulder Canyon, free soloed, I believe, in the 60s, and is somewhere around the 5.12a range, depending on finger size.
JL
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Mar 28, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
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The Beaver rating, I believe came from Moffat's article in Mountain. he also rated Scary Monsters and some other lines 11D.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Mar 29, 2012 - 10:06am PT
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Last night I did a bit of "digging around" and came up with these interesting tidbits from the D.C. area. (I'm recovering from a bit of surgery and can't climb for a while, so have some spare time for such trivial pursuits!!!).
The 5.9 that I vaguely recalled is named PhD or Coffin Climb. It is a steep little number at a crag called Cupid's Bower on an island in the Potomac near Great Falls. It was first climbed in 1936 by Marshall Wood. Nearby at Carderock, MD. are Herbie's Horror (1942) and Biceps (1945) both rated 5.9 (and the grades there are known to be far from "soft")and both first climbed by Herb Conn, whose passing we mourned a short time ago.
Since these routes were most likely climbed as top-ropes, many on here will feel that they "don't count", but they were still impressive achievements especially since they were climbed in sneakers (the guidebook contains a couple of photos of the footwear in action on Herbie's---and an "interesting" tie-in as well)and on the notoriously slippery schist of the region.
However the Carderock Past and Present guidebook also contains the following very interesting entry: "Leonard's Lunacy" 5.10...Donald Hubbard made the ascent in 1943.It was first lead by Herb Conn in 1945 using 3 pitons." The book doesn't say whether or not the pitons were used for aid or protection, however it is unlikely that aid from pitons would have been used for a top-rope ascent, and equally unlikely that a climber such as Conn would have used aid to lead a climb that had been top-roped without. It is possible that these early ascents bypassed the current crux, but even more likely that this may well be the country's first recorded 5.10 lead. The crag also contains another very early 5.10---the Jam Box, climbed by Tony Soler in 1951. The guidebook mentions some departed holds since the first ascent, but describes Soler's climb as "a remarkable feat". Soler was surely an excellent climber, as evidenced by his eponymous routes at Seneca and Devil's Tower.
So a small obscure "local's" area clearly was the scene of some very advanced climbing in the '30s and '40s. It it is equally likely that some similarly difficult top-roping or bouldering was being done at Indian Rock or the other outcrops in the Berkeley Hills, which were also very popular during that time period.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Mar 29, 2012 - 11:00am PT
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Alan- get well and by the way... didn't you and kevin do Hyperbola and Parabola at the Quarries around '66 ??? Pretty solid 5.11's in my book
In RR's ?
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
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Alan, maybe while you are in injury recovery mode, you will have the interest in turning some of this information into a full blown article!?!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 30, 2012 - 02:00am PT
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Cool, Alan - I updated my page with those climbs.
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/yos/hard.htm
I also highlighted both hardest leads/highballs and hardest boulder problems, which includes Macabre Roof as the hardest lead in the world at that time (1967, 5.12c). Maniac makes the "hardest in the world" list too (the climb in Phyllis' post that started this thread) - it's obscure; maybe it will get some (more?) repeats?
And it would be way cool if somebody went out and found PhD/Coffin Climb and Leonard's Lunacy - would be great to see some photos!
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 30, 2012 - 02:18am PT
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Pat Ament's book, "Wizards of Rock" is another good source for this type of information.
Curt
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Mar 30, 2012 - 07:38am PT
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In an earlier thread Randisi gave us a thorough accounting of Paul Preuss. Given the timeline I'd say he had a few hard ones.
And Jessie Guthries 'Rainbow Wall'. I think it's at Yellow Creek, Ala. 5.13, done in '78?
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Mar 30, 2012 - 09:32am PT
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Hi Clint, Both PhD and Leonard's Lunacy are in current guidebooks and, therefore, easy to find, especially Leonard's which is at Carderock a compact and popular area. Neither will be particularly photogenic, though I recall that there is a photo of PhD taken back in the day in the Great Falls guidebook. It would be great if someone from the DC area could post-up with more info on these routes. Jstan might remember something, though I'd be amazed if he had any interest in this topic.
As for your "world list". Given how hard it is to come up with a US list, coming up with something reasonably accurate on a wider scale is really daunting. Many of the climbers in the eastern Alps, before and after World War 1 were actually free climbing at quite a high standard, but since some did use aid on occasion, and these routes later were repeated with considerably more aid, it is now really impossible to know how hard they were actually climbing at the time. It is hard to believe that folks like Preuss, Dulfer, Cassin, Comici, etc,etc weren't climbing at least at the 5.9 level--and probably harder, on occasion. At least the climbs in the UK have pretty accurate historical records, so I can add one more to your list. Cave Crack Indirect at Laddow Rocks in the Western Grit region is rated E15b--same as Javelin Blade--and was climbed by Ivar Berg--a Norwegian--in 1914. The Rockfax Western Grit guidebook calls it the "first E1".
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2012 - 10:37am PT
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Al:
Alan- get well and by the way... didn't you and kevin do Hyperbola and Parabola at the Quarries around '66 ??? Pretty solid 5.11's in my book
In RR's ?
I'm curious as to the answer.
I only went there once with Callaghan but those two routes are still in the memory banks as rated... "five - Yuh Right"
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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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Mar 30, 2012 - 10:53am PT
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In the mid-80's I wrote in Climbing about doing a 5.15. I didn't name the route. Now that I think about it - I was writing a piece of fiction. Well, at least I was thinking about doing the hardest climb in the US.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Mar 30, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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Curt and...Jim, You have a more recent Carderock guidebook than I do, as in mine, Silverspot gets a "mere" 5.10, which puts it a bit later than some of the other 10s--even at Carderock. The trouble with "missing holds" (same with Jam Box) is that even the demise of one crucial hold could drastically effect a climbs rating, so unless there is someone around who's done it "before" and "after" we won't know the true 1962 difficulty. Mike Banks, presuming it is the same one, was a very experienced British climber who established difficult new routes in Cornwall during the '50s.
Slabbo and Trundle...Those are just "Quarries 5.10s". Kevin did Parabola during the '66/'67 school year, I repeated it the following year---same with Ladder Line and some others. Hyperbola came a year or 2 later. As you know, the Parabola slab routes are so conditions dependent that they are really impossible to grade accurately. Anyway, they are really just top-roped boulder problems, only climbed after multiple attempts. Fun, none-the-less. Yeah, I think we were climbing in RRs back then. They were great for edging (i.e., Ladderline)but were definitely not the best for the Parabola slab smearing!!!!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 30, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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> And Jessie Guthries 'Rainbow Wall'. I think it's at Yellow Creek, Ala. 5.13, done in '78?
1986, Rainbow Warrior, 5.13a/b, Jesse Guthrie, Yellow Bluff AL
1987, Tour de Jour, 5.13d/5.14a, Jesse Guthrie, Yellow Bluff AL
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Mar 30, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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Clint--Add to your list Necessary Evil--14c, Virgin River Gorge, 1995--I think the hardest in the US at the time (Chris was 14).
On the "international" portion of the list I recall that Messner did a route in the Dolomites in '67 or'68 that over 20 years later was routinely bouting the first generation of sport climbers--folks like Hans Mariacher.I don't know what the grade has "settled down" to at this time, but I'm sure it was pretty stiff--hard 11 or maybe 12-something, and knowing Messner's boltless boldness, was probably worth at least an R rating.I'll try to dig up some details--something to do over the weekend.
And, though I haven't done it so can't say for sure, but 10c seems a bit stiff for Cave Crack Indirect. I think E1,5b is more like 10a.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Mar 30, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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YA- "Quarries 5.10" I have done them enough to say 11b and 11c respectively..... anyway the Caderrock sounds wild
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Mar 30, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
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Yasha Hai, 5.13a(?), 1979(??), Vedauwoo.
I actually don't have much information about this climb. Other than its a finger crack through a roof. A friend of mine freed it last fall for the second free ascent (he thinks). Otherwise, I've never heard of it.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Mar 30, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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'79 ? really ? that would be a big deal. never hear Skinner or Scarpelli talk about that one and spent quite a bit of time with both of them.
Jaybro
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dogtown
Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
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Mar 30, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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Does dreamcatcher fit in here some where?
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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The Messner route I mentioned earlier is on a Dolomite face called the Sasso della Croce (Crosc)or the Heiligkreuzkofel. The route was climbed in 1968 with his brother Gunther and is rated UIAA VIII or F7a or 7a+ (11d/12a)with ledge-fall potential. It took Messner about an hour to work out the sequence on the FA, and was unrepeated in its original form for years despite numerous attempts by top climbers (most parties use a variation to the right).While this is a year or 2 after Macabre Roof, it is 1/2-way up a Dolomite wall in a serious position.
But when I was researching this climb, I came across an even more incredible ascent mentioned in an article on Planet Mountain. In 1934, Italian climber Raffaele Carlesso (a leading Dolomite activist of the period)climbed a route on the Torre Trieste which he said he climbed "barefoot and free" that is currently rated UIAA VIII- (11c or d)!!!!!
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Erik
Trad climber
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Didn't some monk in France put up a 5.13b route in the 1950s or 1960s on a rock wall behind his monastery? Seem to remember a Climbing mag article about it some years ago...
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Michael Lecky
Mountain climber
Harvard, MA
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Interesting to see Tony Yaniro's name pop up. My old friend David Scarbough and I took him on his first climb. Dave and I would prove to be alpine nonentities, but Tony went on to do things. Given what he was doing after about twenty minutes of tutoring, that's no surprise. I regularly receive Patagonia catalogs, and when I look at the photos of the free climbers (a now-redundant phrase), I want to reach for an incontinence pad. I struggled up 5.8 routes, shod in my PA's, and was thrilled with myself. Serphentine and Revelation were near-death experiences. I look back on that time in my life with very mixed feelings. I clung too long to something I wasn't cut out for, but did and saw things I wouldn't trade for the world. As Chris Bonnington put it, I chose to climb.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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"silver spot" has been hard since 1980 when I first was introduced to it. It EBs etc it would just be cruel. I have spent about two hours trying it in 1986 and kinda got nowhere. You need a cold, dry, day to even come close to sticking on it. Shitty rib on left for feet on mica-shist. It was rated "5.13" then.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Wizards of Rock has most or all of Greg Lowe's amazing free
climbs, and as noted Gill was doing some really hard things
most people didn't know about, way back when. I've mentioned
some of these in Wizards.
Higgins and Kamps should be given more room here, I think.
To understand these grades and climbs and their context with
each era, well in short 5.9 in the fifties was a significant
thing, and each new successive generation more or less "inherits"
the latest consciousness, training methods, gear and shoe
improvements, etc. It is difficult to say it was harder to
do 5.11 in the sixties than 5.9 in the fifties. Each new
generation is so benefitted by the "expanding" conscioiusness
of time.... Every climb is relative to its
day. Though a few climbs had small infractions of style,
they were still valid and very difficult for their day. In
1964 5.11 was done in Boulder Canyon, and in 1965 and '66
Eldorado had quite a number of 5.11 climbs, done mostly in
very good style (all things considered). The first 5.11s
in Yosemite were done in 1967, although both of those climbs
changed and could be later down-graded a bit.... That not
much is mentioned about Pratt's routes, such as Twilight Zone
is curious to me. And yes, Rodger, Rearick led Split Pinnacle
Lieback... So much more could be said... to
repeat stuff in Wizards....
A small note. When I led Supremacy Crack in
'66, I made it well past the 5.11 crux without a style flaw and only on
easy ground up high took a short rest after I fiddled too long to get a
piton in that strangely tapered crack. Even Royal, a stickler for style,
felt it was a valid ascent and gave me credit for it. It was the hardest
climb of its day, many believed (aside from the Thimble). But the point I
want to make is that I returned soon and led the climb without a flaw.
So that return ascent validates the climb, in the strictest sense,
if anyone wants to find fault with the earlier style flaw. I did the same
thing with several other 5.11 routes at the time, went up, did the 5.11
crux, then took a more or less unnecessary rest on some 5.8 move
briefly, but for argument's sake returned and led without a
rest. Royal's lead of Athlete's Feat, in 1964, now rated 5.11 (with added
bolts), was one of the hardest climbs on the planet in its day.
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pk_davidson
Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Every climb is relative to its day.
Buried in Pat's post is one of the most pertinent statements to the thread.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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I'm surprised Sphinx Crack's left out, especially as I recall Bruce, you may have placed the original bolt over the roof as a hanging belay point?
I think Steve Hong freed the route, albeit as 2 pitches, circa 1979, and only Yuki H. has ever on-sighted it as one pitch, with tons of beta and gear advice to work with.
5.13c was the consensus last time I looked, which certainly puts it in contention as the hardest crack climb in the U.S., if not the world, at the time. It's reputation attracted some of the strongest climbers but spit them all off on the onsight attempts- maybe even Wolfgang, and Kurt, if I remember right?
Pat's point is apropo, especially when each decade has reflected different emphases(?), from face-climbing to off-widths to sport, etc. Very few bolt-clippers are likely to relish a Pratt off-width testpiece, but that's part of the beauty of the diverse world of climbing.
One should be wary of placing too much trust in the really old, apocryphal tales, given the unreliable chain of witnesses and details to verify reports. Preuss's routes excepted, because he mostly soloed - one could argue his death verified all his earlier ascents.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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another very early 5.10---the Jam Box, climbed by Tony Soler in 1951
What became of Tony Soler? Anyone know? I missed meeting him, but had a pair of his Spiders at one point. Really, really stiff if I recall correctly.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Oh, Patrick, there is an absolutely charming type in your excellent, excellent post: "...down-grated..."
Like what happens if you fall on a Tuolumne knob climb?
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jstan
climber
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jstan might remember something, though I'd be amazed if he had any interest in this topic.
Indeed. I ask you. Starting in kindergarten we have to compete with other kids. And hit benchmarks
set for us by others. Why in god's name would anyone want to take all of this baloney into climbing?
Where the challenge itself was set millions of years ago by nature herself?
You know how hard you worked out during the week and you know there were no cheats on the
weekends. Was there progress or was there not? It all gets really simple, and answerable.
Glorious.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Typo corrected.
More ramblings...
One point I have tried to make in the past. Some climbs are done
in imperfect style. Yet they are still vital contributions and
important. When you are in the limelight, the stylistic flaws
will be emphasized while other climbs done perfectly are
forgotten. This may be a sad
reality of the competitive spirit....
Another point, sometimes a climb is done in good style up to a point. But
then, say, a rest is taken on a piece of gear. On at least
two or three routes I did in Eldorado in the mid-1960s, I led
the 5.11 section in good style and then, for one
reason or another, took a brief rest on some kind of much
easier section. Cub Schaefer gave me a pair of
lightweight mountain boots to try out. I wore them when I went up to
try Vertigo. Even though the climb was quite a bit more difficult in
these boots, I managed the 5.11 section first try. Higher, though,
where one normally stems out wide, to either side, and can get an
almost arms-free rest or two, those boots made smearing and
such stem-rests virtually impossible (at least for me).
I ended up liebacking on otherwise moderate ground
that should have been relatively straightforward. Consequently
I got very pumped. So I rested with
my hand on a carabiner on a piton on a
5.8 move. I recognized at the time that I was capable of doing the
lead without a rest, had I been in my normal climbing shoes and also
not had to hang there by one arm and hammer in the pitons from
which decades of subsequent climbers would benefit and
simply clip.
I did return soon after and did the climb without that rest.
But people argued I didn't do the climb free, because of that first
slightly flawed ascent. I later realized I should have
listed the climb as 5.11, A1. I mean, the 5.11 section didn't go
away just because I rested on the 5.8 section above. Had I rested
in the middle of the 5.11 section, that would have been another
matter. I did manage to do that whole 5.11 part, then in
1966, and rest or no rest it was one of the first 5.11s in the
country. One could accurately say I didn't do the whole pitch free, on
that first attempt, and only the 5.11 section. But I DID do the 5.11,
and that was just as difficult whether or not I rested above
on easier rock.
It would have been more accurate to say I free climbed the route
my second attempt, on a different day. Maybe
it would compare to a climber doing a 5.11 section
on a difficult Yosemite route but
taking a rest on an easier section. They still would have done 5.11.
In 1965 and 1966, 5.11 had not been done, other than by John Gill,
possibly by Greg Lowe... Royal's Athlete's Feat, well, that was close
to 5.11, in 1964, but in general the grade of 5.11 had not
yet arrived. It was a grade our culture had not yet achieved,
for the most part. So to do it was significant.
As for Supremacy Crack, many very strong climbers looked at it. Those
who tried it, such as Rearick, couldn't touch it... with a top rope.
And he, for example, was proficient on 5.10. Even in the 1970s I watched
Wunsch and many others of the new guard swing off Supremacy,
unable to climb it.
To lead it was a whole different matter, because the crack has an
unusual, weird taper inside, and it's very difficult to get in
pitons. I spent a long time hanging with one arm, in order to fit
the two halfway decent pitons I placed for the first 40 feet.
Even the last, third, piton, on the
easier section above, was a little sketchy. I placed it with the second
piton below my feet. I was looking at a bad fall. But I was well above
the 5.11 section. Like Vertigo, I rested briefly right there, on that
5.8 section, so it wasn't perfect style. Similar to Vertigo, I
returned and led Supremacy without the rest. Again, had I thought to
do it, I could have listed that leading ascent as 5.11, A1. I
knew, though, I would return and eliminate the rest. My partners couldn't
follow the pitch with a top-rope. That too was 1966. Back then, I
didn't take the ascent very seriously, since it is a relatively short
route (a sixty-foot very overhanging hand crack). It got its reputation
as a result of those who tried it and failed. It was quite a while before
anyone repeated the route, even by top-rope. To lead it, in the
methods of that day, with pitons and hammer, is closer
to 5.11d than 5.11b.
When Lynn Hill and I climbed Supremacy one year, a couple decades
after the first ascent, she fired in Friends easily, not to mention her
skinny hands that she sank to the elbow! It's hard to look back
accurately and know how difficult climbs were, in their day. While I
appreciate you, Clint, I don't think you quite have the right
understanding of Supremacy, its history, or its place along the
spectrum of difficulty. Supremacy
was the top of the standard. Of that, I think I can safely say.
Many climbs fall into this category of being profound but which
are not accurately perceived in retrospect. Something like
the Mechanics Route, for example, at Tahquitz was a significant
achievement, despite how we view its rating from the vantage point
of present time....
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Cool, lots more interesting early hard climbs to add. Here's what I added to my version of the list:
6c+ (5.11c) 1934 south wall Torre Trieste, Dolomites Raffaele Carlesso, barefoot
6b+ (5.10d) 1965 Twilight Zone Yosemite Chuck Pratt
6c/6c+ (5.11b/c) 1966 Supremacy Crack Eldorado Pat Ament, led clean after toprope in 1965, and led with rest on rope earlier in 1966
6c (5.11) 1967 Slack Center Yosemite Pat Ament, flake removed shortly after and is now 5.10d
7a (5.11d) 1968 Pilastro di Mezzo, Messner Slab Sass dla Crusc, Dolomites Reinhold Messner
7a (5.11d) 1971 Persistence Shawangunks John Stannard
7c+ (5.13a) about 1979 Yasha Hai Vedauwoo Japanese climber
8a (5.13b) 1981 Sphinx Crack South Platte (CO) Steve Hong
8b/8b+ (5.13d/5.14a) 1987 Tour de Jour Yellow Bluff (AL) Jesse Guthrie
8c (5.14b) 1994 Super Tweak Logan Canyon (UT) Boone Speed
[edited]
Not sure what to do with Nat's Traverse; it's nice but doesn't fit into this list very well.
As for trying to capture the difficulty of doing the climbs with the gear of the time, that can get very hard to measure.
So instead, my version of this list attempts to make a strange mix of a current consensus rating for the climb in its original condition (i.e. before key broken holds) but with today's gear.
Usually the original ascents with worse gear were as hard or harder than today.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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jstan might remember something, though I'd be amazed if he had any interest in this topic.
Indeed. I ask you. Starting in kindergarten we have to compete with other kids. And hit benchmarks set for us by others. Why in god's name would anyone want to take all of this baloney into climbing? Where the challenge itself was set millions of years ago by nature herself?
You know how hard you worked out during the week and you know there were no cheats on the
weekends. Was there progress or was there not? It all gets really simple, and answerable.
Glorious.
Still, I remember you pointing out Silver Spot to me when we climbed together at Carderock 30 years ago. You said "that thing is really hard, I've only managed to do it a couple of times." Then you added, "of course, I've only been on it a couple of times."
zing.
Curt
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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I love climbing history. My input, for what it's worth:
I believe there was some talk earlier in the thread about Grand Illusion, and whether it was a sport climb or not. Obviously, it's protected with natural gear, but if I'm not mistaken, the first ascents were made on pre-placed gear. The first ascent made while placing the gear was by Hidetaka Suzuki. Year?
The first 14b in the world, Wallstreet, was climbed by Wolfgang Gullich in 1987, in the Frankenjura.
As far the US goes, the hardest route in the US from 1992 to 1996 was Just Do It by J.B. Tribout at Smith Rocks. Though Necessary Evil at the Virgin River Gorge is given the same grade (14c), Chris Sharma considered it a more difficult route when he sent it in '96.
Before Just Do It, Tribout's To Bolt or Not To Be was the first 14a in the US in 1986. I once heard that Kauk had a very fast repeat of this route (like a few tries in a day kind of a thing). Does anyone know the back story on Kauk's ascent? There is a picture of Kauk on it in the 2nd edition of Largo's oh-so-awesome How to Rock Climb. I remember gawking at that picture in wonder in '92 when I started climbing. Kauk is the bad mofo of bad mofos, IMHO. Has anyone even gotten off the ground on Magic Line anyways?! That thing must be ridic or them young'uns are plain skeerd.
Finally, I believe Boone Speed's Super Tweek at Logan Canyon was the first 14b in the US, but it was climbed after Just Do It (in '94), so it doesn't make the list; but is still super cool.
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Chauncey
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 04:18am PT
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Any Henry Barber routes make the list?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 10, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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As long as boulder problems are being mentioned, how about Nat's Traverse (V8 or 5.13b) done in 1976 at Mortar Rock in Berkeley, Ca by Nat Smale?
Go Nat! See him around SLC from time to time. Still wrasslin' pebbles...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Apr 26, 2012 - 01:22am PT
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I enjoyed this topic. A lot of mutual respect, a lot of respect for the climbers who did it with minimal or less-than-perfect style, too.
Clint, you are one dedicated didactator (I like the word), keeping up with the current, looking under rocks for the past.
Pat, I just finished a novel by Alice Adams titled Almost Perfect this week. Too bad the title is taken.
It is not hard to be honest with yourself. To take it to the limit and then admit you could have improved, that's positive.
Having said that, I thought you were kind of a jerk, an egg-head intellectual who knew it all. Total misread on my part.
Thanks for schooling us.
Alice Adams rocks, too. The one I read that got me started on her was, get this, Second Chances, about a group of senior citizens remembering the past.
So many coincidences, so few brain cells left to appreciate them.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2012 - 10:01am PT
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Jstan, I see this thread as being about celebration, not competition.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 26, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
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P:
According to the thread title, we are focussing here only on climbs that were at one time the hardest in the US. Which is absurd on the face of it. Despite the YDS there is no way actually to quantify difficulty. At the minimum the difficulty that is experienced will vary from person to person.
If the OP had started by saying the author "has a fixation on this topic and thinks others share this quirk and would like to speculate mentally", I'd have no comment.
I could understand a thread about the hardest thing I ever did. There are 5.3's out there that would be pretty stiff if covered with verglas and off which there was no retreat. Those kinds of things
are real.
That stuff is on the trip reports. Cool.
In any event people are interested in whatever they are interested in.
Carry on.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 26, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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According to the thread title, we are focussing here only on climbs that were at one time the hardest in the US. Which is absurd on the face of it. Despite the YDS there is no way actually to quantify difficulty. At the minimum the difficulty that is experienced will vary from person to person.
which is why the thread quickly became a list of short, difficult technical rock climbing routes which is one of the styles of climbing most subject to quantification.
and it's a good thing that we are concentrating on US climbs, because if we concentrated on short, technical rock climbs in a global context, there's only about two decades in which us climbs would appear on the list. i shudder to imagine what that would do to the self-esteem of the nationalists on board.
but it's fun as a drinking game-- like who was the greatest quarterback or what was the best single-malt ever?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 26, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
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The first known ascent of Devils Tower by any method occurred on July 4, 1893, and is accredited to William Rogers and Willard Ripley, local ranchers in the area. They completed this first ascent after constructing a ladder of wooden pegs driven into cracks in the rock face. Bad ass by anyones standard of the day.
Certainly one of the boldest most audacious ascents done before 1900.
What about ice? Green Gulley in MT in the 60s.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Apr 26, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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Dance of the Woo-Li Masters is pretty hard, I hear
NW Face of Devils Thumb is 2 legit 2 kwit
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Apr 26, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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...or what was the best single-malt ever?
Thank God I can at least get one right.
Curt
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 26, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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^^^not until you can bribe yr way into the tasting of the shackleton's reserve.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 27, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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In the late 1950s in Yosemite, the East Chimney of Rixon's Pinnacle was an often attempted challenge for the valley 5.9er regulars. The understanding in Camp 4 was that it would be the first 5.10 in the valley once it was freed. Roper's 1964 red cover guide credits Royal and Dave Rearick with the first free ascent in 1960. Royal recently told me he first took a long fall nearly to the ground while attempting a variation left on the lower section. I freed the next ascent of the climb belayed by Margaret Young; and then later in the season led it again belayed by Frank Sacherer, watched by Chuck Pratt and other valley regulars. At the time, Frank told me the first free ascent had actually been done by Yvon Chouinard, late on a moonlit night after they ran out of wine in Camp 4. Royal may have understandably figured that a gallon of cheap wine constitutes direct aid; especially as Yvon was later not able to repeat the route...lol
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skadder
Big Wall climber
Rio Oso
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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Patrick, It sounds more like bragging than a history lesson. climbers today have better equipment so you wouldn't have any idea of how it felt climbing with "gold line" rope, etc. Every sport evolves. In 1968, hanging from the West Face, Sentinel, did I ever think someone would free climb El Cap The equipment doesn't deminish the effort and will of the climber. We don't need climbing critic's. If I need to be saved off the top, personally I don't care how you get there to do it. Bottom line, you climb within your skill level, no shame in that, as long as you can cover my back and hold me on a fall. Climbing isn;t sophisticated, you take the shorted cleanest path to the top.
On belay, Climbing
Skadder
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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What do you mean by hardest climb? Technical difficulty, fear factor or a combination of both....do you mean a single move, pitch or multi pitch?
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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The magic 100! Thanks, Jim, that was generous of you, seeing that my thread was SOOOO close and taking me to the next level!
It's a silly thread, of course. There's no way of comparing these things and it's meaningless to do so. But people seem to have fun talking about how hard this or that is, and I think there is some historical value looking at the topic. Clint's list (and others who added their stories and perspective) provide a starting point for learning about how all kinds of climbing have evolved.
Phyl
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Sep 27, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
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Though I know that this topic drives Donini and others crazy, in the spirit of the OP, and those of us who are interested in such trivia, I have another contribution to Clint's list. The guidebook to cragging in the Jackson Hole area rates Gill's Crack on Blacktail Butte, SOLOED by the Master in 1959, at 5.11 b/c.The guidebook mentions that John likely soloed other even harder routes on the crag that have now been lost to history. This is true of other contemporaneous routes that John put up on Disappointment Peak in the Tetons, at Devil's Lake, in the Needles, and elsewhere. I'm sure---maybe he'll post-up to confirm or deny--that to him he was just "playing around" when he did these climbs. Still this climb, and those now lost, were incredible achievements by an amzing climber.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Sep 27, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Thank you, Alan. But I don't remember those climbs on Blacktail well enough to confirm them for Clint's list.I visited the butte a number of times in the late 1950s, with Yvon Chouinard, Bob Kamps, Dave Rearick and others and did a few hard moves there, sometimes solo, but it's just as well we leave the documentation to later generations that firmly established routes there.
;>)
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Sep 27, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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if Alan says it's documented,, then it must be ! I think he invented the guide book.
Cheers to you all !
John
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Sep 27, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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"but I don't remember those climbs ... well enough ... i visited with ...
and others and did a few hard moves ... sometimes solo, but it's just as well
we leave ... to later generations that ... ;>) "
that's a quote i could try on with eerie satisfaction. like rattling around in
the old man's shoes ... or "dancing" with ma, little bare feet atop hers.
no really, there's a template of humility so sincere that
it aptly frames a lifelong string of feats extraordinaire
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SeaClimb
climber
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Sep 27, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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Alan Watts' ascent of East Face of Monkey Face has to be up there somewhere...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 27, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
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Soloing on Blacktail Butte, especially in 1959, is not trivial- way crimpy.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Sep 27, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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How do you define a hardest route?
Would you rather take yer best shot on some Smith Rock 5.14? Or roll the dice on one of MCR North Apron's 5.10x/5.11x suicide Grade III's?
One path to equity, obviously, is a route or routes' advancement of the proverbial high bar.
And Smith did, indeed, begin to mainstream Sport here in the States. Actually, compared to local Eastside Sport Crags, with bolts every bodylength or so, most of Smith's 5.10 Sport is actually pretty sporty, with 40 foot wings possible.
But, in a long overdue fan mail I've been trying to get around to actually finishing, I think the free climbing push in the '70s Valley, particularly runnout bolted face/slab ushered in a second Yosemite Golden Era, arguably comparable to the '50/'60s Big Wall Golden Era. Isn't Meyer's 1st Topo the defining document?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 27, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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I could give a flying f*#k about the hardest route, I do care about the hardest route I can do. Climbing is very personal and that is why it's with you for a lifetime.
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