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skitch
Trad climber
pdx
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 19, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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I recently graduated with a Masters in Environmental/Civil Engineering, but since I have consistently taken shitty jobs so I could live in rad places (mechanic in Yosemite, toilet cleaner in the Bighorns, Peace Corps Volunteer in Belize) I have practically no engineering experience. So now I'm trying to find a job where I can at least get a few years of experience, but all of the places I want to live have really high unemployment.
North Dakota has a really low unemployment due to the oil industry, which means I might be able to get a public sector job that would get my foot into the forest service, while building my work experience, but there isn't a lot of climbing in Bismark!!!
Any experienced engineers have any advice on how I should go forward with my career?
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skitch
Trad climber
pdx
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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I am quite sick of sitting inside for 6 months at a time! So it's really a last resort type of thing.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Mar 19, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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i bet you can get an engineering job in Anchorage, AK.
I was looking at a short gig in Grand Forks, ND in February and I asked a "good 'ol boy" what it was going to be like... His reply "it's gonna be a windy, cold, sonbitch".
All the Minnesotans and Dokotans in Alaska wear t-shirts in the winter because in Anchorage, it's comparatively warm.
Jobs aren't everything, enjoyment of life is more important, imho.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Mar 19, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
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In John Sherman's humorous slide show about his goal of climbing in all 50 US states, I believe that North Dakota was the second-to-worst (after Louisiana) in potential.
Western South Dakota on the other hand has a bunch, and perhaps that's within weekend range?
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Mar 19, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Give up on the "do good" jobs and head into mining and solid waste? Might be more opportunities.......In better states.....
Erik
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 19, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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skitch,
send me an email at gbohome@yahoo.com.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Mar 19, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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The climbing there sucks beyond the pale.
At least the mountain biking is off-the-charts good. i.e., the Mah Daah Hey trail, which you can ride for the 2 week long summer.
There is good coin to be made in the Williston Basin though. That is if you can find an available trailer to rent.
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bentelbow
climber
spud state
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Mar 19, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
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I spent 5 years growing up in Fargo. Nothing to do there but to do drugs and get your girlfriend pregnant. Cold,flat and barren. Watch out for snirt storms.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
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It can't be that bad - it's next door to Saskatchewan, the Canadian heartland.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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Bob Dylan loved that place,
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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I lived in Bismarck, ND for 1.5 years. I have lived in multiple locations in Asia and all over the US. Bismarck (and the rest of ND) was the worst place i have ever lived BY FAR.
Start with the weather; it is terrible 6 months of the year, bad for 4 months and ok for 2. The wind blows had all the time. There is NOTHING to do there other than hunt, fish or snow-mobile. Even if you are into those activities, the climate is so harsh that it significantly detracts from your ability to enjoy those activities the majority of the year.
The majority of the state if totally flat and consists of farm-land. As part of my job I regularly flew from one side of the state to the other in a chartered private plane and was able to see a great deal of the state from the air. It is absolutely shocking how little natural land there is there. The vast majority of the state is cultivated. The far western part of the state has some natural landscape left, but it is either flat plains or rolling hills.
There is no climbing there. NONE.
Finally, there is the culture, or lack there of. I found ND to be the most insular, myopic and generally unfriendly place I have ever been. The vast majority of the population is from ND, never wants to leave, thinks the place is awesome, thinks the rest of the US sucks and doesn't want you there. The majority of the population is white and that is the way that they like it. I have lived in the south and Arizona, and found ND to be far more racist and racially exclusive than either of those places. Don't even think about getting good ethnic food there.
I want to be balanced, but am hard pressed to say anything good about ND.
To put it another way, there is no way that I would ever return work in ND, regardless of the money. EVER!!!
If you want more info, shoot me a PM. I will do my best to answer any questions you might have.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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I worked in Fargo for a few months during the winter in the late 90's.
It was an awesome opportunity for me to learn of another place I never wanted to live.
The wind... the wind.. the GOD-DAMN WIND!
I like wind too but the wind in ND will drive you f'ing insane. It NEVER STOPS.
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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The answer is.....pretty (horrible).
On the other hand, you CAN get a damn good chicken fried steak in Bismarck
(along with mountains & hot springs the only thing missing here in MN)
My old AFA roomie drove tankers...he was stationed in Fargo, not even the hinterlands...returned from a Mideast deployment (think tent living, 120-degree sandstorm-style)in December to a post-blizzard -40-degree winter wonderland. Got to his rental home (after one trip into the ditch, rescued by bypassing pickup) to find the lee side one GIANT snowdrift to the peak of the roof. Return to base, stay in BOQ, hire a payloader to excavate so he could enter his digs....ahhhh, ND livin!
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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I spent one winter in the Sahara Desert.
Buttfukin hotter then hell.
The next winter I get sent to North of Duluth Minnesota right next door to North Dakota.
Buttfukin cold. There were days -64 with wind chill.
Yep the wind!!! the fukin wind.
Aaarrrggggggg !!!!!
But, the people up there are awesome ......
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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You should read Wolf Willow, by Wallace Stegner. It'll tell you something about the unique nature of the area and its climate, and even about its culture - although it is set almost a century ago.
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
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WB - geography check - Duloot is on the east side of state, ND on west....what town were you in? just wondering...
Did you get a chance to check out the North Shore?
thread drift apology!!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mar 19, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
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North Dakota is awesome!
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 19, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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I was on the North Shore. Someplace north of Split Rock Lighthouse.
Right on it.
Freezing ass cold .....
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 19, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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Welcome to North Dakota
Mountain removal project complete
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 19, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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North Dakota is awesome!
Bruce, you are sick.
As to the question "How horrible is North Dakota", the answer is: "Horrible beyond your ability to understand horrible."
I spent my first twenty-three years living north of North Dakota, in the Canadian city of Saskatoon. Do you want to know what the absolute best thing is about living in Saskatoon? It's not in North Dakota!
Everyone is telling you about the horrible weather, but the reality is that you'd adapt to the weather. Yeah it's cold in the winter, and windy, but I'd ten times rather have that than some place that's hot and muggy most of the time. No, the real problem -- which one poster mentioned above -- is that it is the worst cultural wasteland that you can imagine. In fact, you probably can't imagine how horrible it will be in that regard. And there is no way to get away from it. No rocks, no mountains, no nothing.
If you move there, you will go mad, and we will read about the messy way you killed yourself.
Obviously, if you're starving, and need a job tomorrow, well, you take what you can get. But what you'll get in ND is probably worse than starving, so don't do it.
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TheSoloClimber
Trad climber
Vancouver
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Mar 19, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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Driven through there twice, both times in the winter, both times I drove straight though in order to get away as quickly as possible. It's depressing at best.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 19, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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werner, you're a pussy: The next winter I get sent to North of Duluth Minnesota right next door to North Dakota.
Buttfukin cold. There were days -64 with wind chill.
that's considered the topics when you're stationed in Tower, MN in the winter... which I was when I was chasing neutrinos in the Soudan Mine...
as for North Dakota, Tim Toula wrote all you need to know in Rock 'n' Road, I'd transcribe the whole N.Dakota entry but I'm on travel right now... perhaps someone else can...
if you're considering N.Dakota, why not Saskatchewan?
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nopantsben
climber
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Mar 19, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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from what i understand it's not even a proper state.
also it's got the highest church density in all of the US. (churches per capita, that is)
good luck!
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Mar 19, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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One of my ex girlfriends was born and raised in Minot.On the morning Zappa died I ran into our bedroom and said "Frank Zappa died"!She sat straight up in bed with the most serious look on her face and said "so,there's only two Beatles left now"? She went and saw Titanic and came home exclaiming "wow,I didn't know it sank".That girl was cultured.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 19, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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it is the worst cultural wasteland that you can imagine.
Oh, ye of a narrow elitist bent, you talk like you can't buy beer on Sunday
there or play pool. Sheesh - try that in Kansas! I drove through Kansas on
a Sunday once. Notice the 'once'. I thought I'd driven into a neutron bomb
test area. The only movement I saw were the tumbleweeds. Damn, but was I
glad to get to Missouri.
And by the by, it has been in the 70's there lo these last few days.
No doubt thanks to eKat and her wood stove.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 19, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
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How far to South Dakota? Black Hills Devils Tower sound like straight shots of driving time.
but the snow and cold... just saying Tarantino did a movie on the place.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Mar 19, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
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some uppity folks on this thread
it's fine.
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skitch
Trad climber
pdx
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
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Okay, I'm convinced, NO ON ND.
I'll just figure something out somehow, even the homeless people in Portland are fat (but portland treats their homeless well compared to other cities).
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Mar 19, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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Coen brothers...Fargo. It could have been a Tarantino movie minus the retro soundtrack and the nigger epithets..
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 19, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
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ghost on North Dakota -- "No rocks, no mountains, no nothing."
Sounds like my kind of place.
Peaceful.
I'll go there to write my manifesto on .....?
:-)
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Mar 19, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
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Funny thread. I drove across the state a few times in the last couple of years on the way to Montana. The highlight of the drive is some huge plastic cow on the side of the freeway somewhere in the middle of the state. I mean huge like a hundred feet high or something. Other than corn fields and the cow, the place is a wasteland.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 19, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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I loved the movie Fargo.
So North Dakota can't be all bad.
You guys are nuts and too many rocks in your heads.
Everything has to be rock climbing or some other stupid climbing involved.
One dimensional people .....
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Mar 19, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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They never even go to Fargo or anywhere in NoDak in the movie,it's all Minnesota.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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Minnesota is a climber's paradise. And North Dakota is immediately adjacent to Minnesota. You figure it out.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
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good ice fishing, right out of your truck!
You're thinking of Minnesota. In North Dakota, there's good ice fishing right out of your toilet.
North Dakota made John Gill solo the Thimble when it was two grades harder than anything else in country. Be very afraid.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
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lol ^^^^ +1
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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Williston is like 4-5 hours from the Black Hills. Probably a little shorter if you go straight to Devil's Tower. There is a lot of work in Gillette, WY, but not apperently as booming as Williston. if a guy could get a good schedule with working straight through for a week or two and then 4-7 days off you could leave each time you get off. A lot of guys that work in Gillette share a place with several people on a rotating schedule you then could afford to keep a place in the hills. You can get a cheap place in Belle Fourche or Lead/Deadwood for your time off and there will be more climbing than you could do in your lifetime within an hour. That being said it would still suck, but most jobs do and at least you would be making some real money. A lot of people around here work for minium wage or just above, but realestate is relatively cheap for someplace with good climbing.
I have heard a lot of good things about the Mountain biking in the TRNP area and it can't be more than a couple of hours away. Might be good to take up kite skiing.
The beartooths might only be 5-6 hours away. It is a paradise.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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Devil's Tower (Wyoming) and the Needles and Spearfish Canyon (South Dakota) are between 5.5 and 6.5 hours from Bismark.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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My dad grew up there in the 20's and 30's hard times in a hard place, north of Bismark near Wing. In winter a horse pulled them to school in sledge. They had to crap inside the house in a bucket and use the Sears catalog ,it was too cold to get to the outhouse. My grandma never could drive or ride a bike but we were told she could break a horse. Without running water she had 4 kids in diapers. My dad was a twin and a grumpy old Polish uncle almost took one of them. Many of my relatives and people moved to Lodi in CA and a few of the old people still speak in the North Dakota (Russian-German) accent- different than the the Minnesota one most of them use now. One my great uncles moved to Texas near the boarder because the whores were cheaper, or so I was told. Went back twice in my life and that is enough.
About 4 years ago in Hawaii-Just before my uncle stroked. I bet the oldest twins to hike that trail..
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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A masters in environmental/civil engineering? Write your ticket. Does Caltrans ring a bell? Time to get out of the low wage thinking and use your edumacation to score a good job. Can your proffs give you some leads or recommendations?
I've a friend that has a civil engineering degree; he is living quite happily in Bishop, CA working for Caltrans.
A good job and a good place to live/play are not mutually exclusive if you have an education and know what you are doing.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
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Here ya go. Have fun in North Dakota
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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lol looks good.
I packin up.
Meet be there, and don't be late ......
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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After driving by that thing several times,I can't help but wonder if that hill the cows is on is the highest point in NoDak.Biggest hill I've seen there.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 19, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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Write your ticket. Does Caltrans ring a bell?
Having dealt with some of them, you will have plenty of time and energy on your hands for extra curricular pursuits.
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skitch
Trad climber
pdx
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
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I'm trying to get a job at Caltrans, but I haven't found any postings online for jobs that I'm eligible for. I am going to stop by their office to let them know I'm around. Hopefully I'll be able to make some contacts in Bishop in the short while that I have an internship there.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 20, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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Interesting statistics:
According to the Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index, North Dakota is the second “happiest” state in in the U.S. (just behind #1 Hawaii).
Correspondingly, Thomson Healthcare (from National Center for Health Statistics) claims South Dakota has the least clinical depression rates in the nation while North Dakota isn’t far behind with the ninth least depression rate.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 20, 2012 - 01:28am PT
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Hmmm if someone had to be there anyway, it might be a good place to open a climbing gym....
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Robb
Social climber
The other side of life
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Mar 20, 2012 - 01:37am PT
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Skitch,
Don't listen to these tossers, you're gonna LOVE Williston!!!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Mar 20, 2012 - 01:48am PT
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bunch of hater-dicks slagging ND. wears thin
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Mar 20, 2012 - 02:00am PT
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any good weed growing up there?
ok then.
case closed.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 20, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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I grew up in Grand Forks - lived there from when i was 3 to when i was 13. I have never set foot in ND since I left, and hope to hell I never have to again.
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HCL
climber
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Mar 20, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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Here is what I think it all comes down to: where do you want to live? Pick that place and move there - look for work there, do whatever you have to make it happen there. All else will follow. I think most people underestimate the effect of their location on their lives. For me, it is the most important aspect of who I am - in order to be happy, I must be in a place that I love. Without that, I could never be happy. Pick your place first, then find work there . . .
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Prod
Trad climber
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Mar 20, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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Hey Skitch,
Pick where you want to live, move there and make a life out of it. I moved to Michigan for a job, it was a great job, but, for the most part I wanted to leave after about 5 of 15 years. I'm now in Boulder, where everything is more expensive, but we are making it happen.
Prod.
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laughingman
Mountain climber
Seattle WA
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Mar 20, 2012 - 11:15am PT
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North Dakota is right above south Dakota... Which has the most depressing county in the united states, The Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. The average life expectancy is something like 48 years old for men and 58 for woman. The Reservation also has the lowest per capita income in the country.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 20, 2012 - 11:22am PT
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here you go, pal:
http://www.sondrenorheim.com/remembrance/ceremonies.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNWxwNF5HKQ
get yerself a good pair of nordic skis. it's the secret to warmth in waybelow windchill. if it was good enough for the father of modern snowsports, it ought to be good enough for you.
from that remarkable youtube documentary:
sondre reportedly carried the mail one winter through to montana, 150 miles away. the local indians thought he was "a ghost who floated and danced over the snow at a faster speed than a warrior could run."
and--"i wondered whether his living here with his family was perhaps his greatest challenge as a champion."
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skitch
Trad climber
pdx
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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Thanks for the advice, we are actually moving to Bishop this week in hopes of making it a go, I've worked at a coffee shop before, I can do it again! Hopefully an engineering-ish job comes up in Bishop.
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nature
climber
CO
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Mar 20, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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I think North Dakota is #2 on Rox's list of places to hate if that tells you anything...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 20, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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ah, another bishop bum. best skid row on the planet.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 20, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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Such consensus is rarely seen on the taco. The best endorsement for ND is a tepid "it's alright" from a guy who lives in Minnesota. I think it's safe to take Fargo off my hot list of places to move.
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sunshinedaydream
Trad climber
the big granite bubble
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Mar 20, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Depends on where you are talking about? My parents live there, in Beach and I absolutely love visiting there! Its no Yosemite, but climbing is close, mountain biking is great! The oil thing is causing a huge split in communities. Check out the Maah daa hey bike trail, Red Lodge is not far, the Black Hills are amazing, and have great local climbing, and of course Devils Tower is not too far. Just bought my ticket for this summer to go out there for more adventures. The people are great, the economy is stable there. I love North Dakota! Let me know if you move there, I'm always looking for climbing partners to meet up with out there!
Jess
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Mar 20, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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I was born in Grand Forks ND and have visited over the years. Here's a few pictures of the great neighborhoods there, I dare say much more humain than many of our communities here in CA!!!
Great indoor ice arena at the UND:
Bottom line the mid-westerners are great people I've had nothing but positive experiences traveling there. If you can't live in the mountain regions of the west, why not ND......good cold weather training ground for any alpinist ;^)
Good Luck!!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 20, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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North Dakota is about as unlike the birthplace of Sondre Norheim (Øverbø) as it's possible to imagine. Somewhere I have a photo of it - rather hilly area of Telemark. Still, places are what you make of them, and sometimes what they make of you.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Mar 20, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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North Dakota's greatest claim to fame is Lawrence Welk.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 20, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
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I lived in Estevan Sask for 1 1/2 years. Our worst storms usually blew in from N Dakota and they were awful. That should tell you enough about the weather
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 20, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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Estevan? My condolences. But what you said about storms coming from the south is weird. My Sask memory is of the big nasties rolling in from the northwest.
But interestingly the one thing I do miss a out Sask is the weather. Since leaving I've lived in Seattle and Vancouver, and neither of those places has anything a real man would call weather.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 20, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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How much worse can it be than working in on the North Slope, central Texas, all of Florida, ect. Many people live wonderful lives because they make enough money in short enough time that they get to play where they want in their free time. Many of the companies in these areas also recognize this and allow their employees to work a lot at a time and then corrispndingly take a lot of time off.
Working on a crab boat for a month has to blow as well as well, but I bet you can do a lot more in ND that is fun than you can do on a boat where work is the only objective.
There just is not any climbing, but no different than a lot of other places that offer the potential to make a lot of money.
Where are the places with tons of jobs with high pay that everyone wants to live in. Not sure they exist.
Growing up in eastern SD made ice climbing seem not so cold so I would say it is good training for alpinists.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Mar 20, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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I'm trying to get a job at Caltrans, but I haven't found any postings online for jobs that I'm eligible for. I am going to stop by their office to let them know I'm around. Hopefully I'll be able to make some contacts in Bishop in the short while that I have an internship there.
I'll send you a PM
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
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Mar 20, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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I Took a Train through ND 25 years ago, I really remember montana,
No memory AT all of North Dakota.
Get a boat if you move there to go with your X-c skis?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Mar 20, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
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To add to my PM, what exactly is your expertise or specialized area of study within the environmental/civil engineering field? That description covers a lot of ground.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Mar 20, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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Charlie D...those homes look much more civilized than Mammoth , Not Meth , Lakes...You don't see any homes like that here...Nasty weather keeps the riff raff out....Why do you think Werner Left ND..? RJ
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Mar 20, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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Get a work visa. Get a job in ft. Mac in 24hrs.
Do a fly in -fly out schedule, climb on your time off.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Mar 20, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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RJ,
Mammoth Lakes unfortunately despite its world class mountain environment got off on the wrong foot with poorly conceived planning. It will take decades or more to create the sense of place that fundamental planning principals could have reinforced. Hopefully with time and community involvement the build environment there can stand up equally to the exemplary natural assets the place has to offer. Mammoth of course is not the only place in CA and elsewhere that lost an opportunity. Property rights folks with a suburban auto settlement pattern mentality set the course that only time will amend. Get involved and make a difference!
Charlie D.
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soaring_bird
Trad climber
Oregon
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Mar 21, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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There are many places to get your foot in the door with the USFS besides ND, and many other good FS jobs besides engineering positions to get started in the FS. Once you are established in the agency, then you can apply and move around into other jobs you might prefer. Ditto what HCL said about living where you will have good quality of life first and foremost, then worry about finding the job of your optimum choice. Sounds like you are in a good spot moving to Bishop. Take any job you can get on the Inyo NF, and then go from there. That is a strategy that worked out really well for me. Took a govt. job in a field that didn't interest me all that much at the time, but thought it would be wise to take anything to get a foot in the door. Worked for a great mentor/supervisor, and wound up loving the job. Stayed in that field for the rest of my career with no regrets. Never would have expected it back in '87 when it happenned.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Mar 21, 2012 - 02:12am PT
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... bad enough that I considered posting my drive across ND on Rt. 2 on "Disturbing event you have ever been witness to" thread...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 21, 2012 - 03:11am PT
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I haven't been there for a while - like 40 years.
Last time I was there, the telephones were on a party line ( I don't know where the neighbors were, several miles away at the closest ), and the toilet was in a shed out back.
It was the mid Twentieth Century, and my relatives were still living like Okies.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 21, 2012 - 09:25am PT
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It's one of the few places in the country you can watch trucks passing you on the highway drive over the horizon.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Mar 21, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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I got lost in North Dakota once driving in the western part of the state. I see this doublewide off the road so I drive up to ask directions. A guy is sitting there under an awning. He invites me for some lemonade. After he gives me directions, we get to talking. After a while he says there's going to be a party at his place on Friday night and I could come, that I was invited. He tells me there's going to be some drinking. Sounds good, I say. He tells me there there might be some fighting. Could be fun, I say. Then he says there's going to be some fcuking. Sounds like a wild party, I say.
Finally he says that's good because I'm the only one coming. I left and did not return.
That's a true story, that's the god's truth.
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Sagebrusher
Sport climber
Iowa
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Mar 21, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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North Dakota is right above south Dakota... Which has the most depressing county in the united states, The Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. The average life expectancy is something like 48 years old for men and 58 for woman. The Reservation also has the lowest per capita income in the country.
What I find interesting is that many of the Black Hills tourist places hire people from places like the Phillipines, Malaysia, and the Ukraine.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 21, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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There are always environmental engineering jobs.
Hell, Chesapeake Energy, which drills and fracks more wells than anyone, has a deparment devoted entirely to environmental factors.
They do pre-drilling ground water sampling and monitoring and generally keep a clean nose. Unlike most other companies.
My wife is one of the big cheeses at the state DEQ. Lower pay, but normal hours and great benefits.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 21, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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The Pine Ridge Res, and every other res without a casino, is that way thanks
to the wonderful efforts of those selfless and tireless federal bureaucrats
who know what was right for our red brothers and sisters.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 21, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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Pine ridge is in SD right on the border with Neb. Not really anywhere near ND. There are probably a lot of reason for the poverty not just the one mentioned.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Mar 21, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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Then there's White Clay, Nebraska, just below South Dakota and also just below the Pine Ridge Indian Res. White Clay is only about 3 or 4 stores when I was there and they were all Liquor Stores. There's a straight road that goes right up to Pine Ridge and its littered with White Crosses. The liquor stores make 'Millions" on the Indians who come down in droves.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
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When I was in elementary school in Grand Forks we took a field trip to a field so flat and treeless that you could actually see the earth curve. I thought it was the most depressing thing i'd ever seen. Then we did it again next year and every other year until I moved away. Soul crushing.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 21, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Here is the totality of North Dakota climbing from Tim Toula's Rock 'n' Road ©1995
ISBN 0934641358
I remember it being every bit this good:
(we looked for these things in our drive through and didn't find them...)
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Aug 31, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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RJ,
Mammoth Lakes unfortunately despite its world class mountain environment got off on the wrong foot with poorly conceived planning. It will take decades or more to create the sense of place that fundamental planning principals could have reinforced. Hopefully with time and community involvement the build environment there can stand up equally to the exemplary natural assets the place has to offer. Mammoth of course is not the only place in CA and elsewhere that lost an opportunity. Property rights folks with a suburban auto settlement pattern mentality set the course that only time will amend. Get involved and make a difference!
Charlie D.
I agree. Mammoth could have been a compact, minimal footprint town abutting the Sierra Crest. It's going to take some leadership and cooperation, that I doubt currently exists in Mammoth, to push the town closer to the ideal.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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I’m qualified to comment on this thread since Heidi’s German-American ancestors were farmers in western ND and I visit Montana as a sales rep.
(Heidi goes back there for occasional funerals or weddings, but I have been excused for the last 25 years from “suffering North Dakota.”
So---
A Montana joke about North Dakota.
The historical background is: the Custer expedition to subdue the Sioux Indians was based in North Dakota.
The afternoon that General Custer and his troops were all killed by Indians, a scout rode up to the general and shouted:
“General Custer! We are surrounded by thousands of armed and angry Indians!”
Custer replied: “Yes and your point is??”
The scout replied:
“There is bad news and good news about our situation!”
Custer replied: “Tell me the bad news first and then tell me the good news.”
As the Indians started to charge: the scout shouted------“The bad news is---We are all going to die here!
“However!”
‘The good news is: we don’t have to go back to North Dakota!”
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jody: I don't believe your friend's story.
That said,
If you believe your friend's story, he/she should report it to the civil rights division of North Dakota's AG.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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The only good thing about North Dakota is it's location just above South Dskota.
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Kenygl
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Take up bird hunting and hybernation and you'll love it.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, mtropy... great picture of your dad and his twin brother...
never been to north dakota...
been through south dakota by train...
thanks for all the weather reports...
:)
*stitch:
enjoy the new move... think i read it's bishop...
instead.... :)
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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If you end up in ND be watchful, I am convinced that's where the Canadians are going to begin their first push when they try to invade us.
WOLVERINES UNITE!!!!!!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Tons of work in North Dakota with the drilling boom.
BITD, working as a roughneck during the winter and climbing the rest of the year was really common. Many places in flat and cold wyoming.
I used to work oilfield jobs for a few months, sleep in trucks and save enough money to climb for many months, even overseas.
Following an oil boom around is good work. Manly work. I've thought of working out of there for the winters, but it would take a huge pay cut. Money can't buy happiness, though.
Whoever ragged on Kansas should come spend a summer evening on a friend's porch with me. It is really pretty, and unlike mountain areas, you can actually see beautiful sunsets and tons of songbirds. Kansas is really pretty in some parts. I've done a lot of work up there.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
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Thinking about heading that way. Out of work and need to find good paying work to dig me out of the hole I'm in.
Plaid
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Jan 31, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
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Plaidman,
-20 F is common and quite a bit of wind with the chill. In 2008 a climber/friend that use to work for me was very short handed on a drill rig in SW ND and ask me to help his crew. I worked for about one month & cleared about $14.8K in that short time.
More money could have been made on one of those nights. The weather was -19F with 40 mph winds when a couple of guys offered their subsistence cash payment about $900 x 2 to us rock climbers if either of us would run around the rig once nude. Well I took my shirt off while outside but declined doing one experimental lap while shirtless. I might have needed to go the burn hospital for weenie work but with an extra $1800.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
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Dingus I worked in Grand Lake Colorado for 6 1/2 years. 40- straight temp no wind chill calculated. That was during Jan/Feb every year. Wind howling. We didn't want to know how cold it was. Just keep moving and dress warm. I can handle the cold. Really just need a good job right now!
Plaid
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
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This thread is hilarious.
Plaid, I don't know any of the specifics, but have heard conversations of some serious money being made up there in the oil / natural gas industry. If your looking to get ahead it might be worth sacrificing 6-12 months for work. Good luck.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:37pm PT
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All lot of people in Alaska have a lot to thank the oil industry for, if
they didn't put it up their noses. It isn't a 'fun' industry to work in,
to say the least, but then how many are? At least in N Dakota you won't
have Polar bears stalking you if you go for a walk at night.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 31, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
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I spent some years growing up in North Dakota. The parental family blew up and (wisely) my Mom sent me out to live in Whapeton, ND with my grandparents. Grandpa was in the flower business and good at it. He had four big greenhouses and a nice showroom. He sold flowers all over Minnesota and Iowa mostly.
He was friends with Lawrence Welk, and one day Welk brought in some investors and they started FTD.
The summers there were great, swimming in the Red River, riding motor scooters, catching girls in the hay loft. Hoh man!
Eventually one of my cousins, whom I ran around with a lot then, went on to become mayor of Fargo for a couple terms. I went out one time more recently to visit and I took with the Cohn Bros. film thinking they would find it entertaining. They most certainly did not.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 31, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
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I hear a lot of Scandinavians ended up re-locating in Monrovia because of the grazing possibilities...?
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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I drove by Fargo on the interstate about seven years ago and saw a very large performance center announcing Keith Urban that Saturday night. I finally saw him last summer here in California. It seemed that the performance center offered a lot of various events.
I read all of the Little House On the Prairie books to my kids. The stories of the blizzards were entrancing. I had experienced many blizzards growing up in Nebraska. They are always exciting.
North Dakota has a lot of open space then and probably does still. Living in country, with only the weather to contend with, can be very healthy and relaxing. And it can keep you strong into your late ages. The vascularity of an old farmer's arm will tell you why.
Perhaps in the North Dakota, like in Nebraska, people have to be more civil to each other because they are stuck inside with each other for so many months. Cabin fever can be difficult to control. You have to learn to not escalate.
Yes, the wind blows strongly, and I mean strongly, about every third day. It can make you grumpy. But it can also make you feel connected to nature. I miss it.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I went to North Dakota once.
It was so cold in North Dakota that I took a sh#t in my own pants just to have a warm place to sit down.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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I've been here since April...I've hauled out a couple hundred thousand barrels of crude. I make about ten grand a month. I'm very cold, all the time. You adapt or die, like always.
Good luck.
I could give tips to folks with a cdl license. It's what I do.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Skully! Always good to hear from you!
Sounds like all is going well----& cold.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Hiya Fritz.....naw it's a fricken heat wave. It got up to ten today. That's ten above.
Just going to bed... gotta get up early...do it all again. Colder tomorrow...Arrggh.
Ps.....pm sent
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Skully! Hope you can make it back down to COR in late June. We are working on a group camp with Donini and other folks you have climbed with!
Stay tuned----& PM me your new enail.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Cap'n...Hey!.....Maybe i should call you, Cap'n money bags...
ps...Did you keep your place in eye-dee ho?....
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Thanks, Baser. Every now and then I am reminded how cool you really are!
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Skully let's talk details send me a pm scott.k.peterson@gmail.com
Plaid
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Sent you a pm, Scott. Yes, Nita I still have my place in Boise....headed there in a couple weeks to do some relaxing.
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GLee
Social climber
MSO
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Skully,
We met this year @ FL2013 in C4 (MH, Jstan, HossJulia, Plaidman & wife, and others)...
I am interested in what you are doing
PM me at: glee90@hotmail.com
I'll tell you about my cold weather credentials (& others)....
I do not have a CDL, but grew up driving grain trucks in my cousins fields near Williston (to 1964, then moved to Missoula), and a 1500 gal BLM water tanker for Roadside in Fairbanks, AK (1977-1978)... Missoula has Sage CDL training available.
Thanks in advance,
Greg Lee
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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1959 - 1962: Glasgow, Montana, a few miles south of the Canadian border.
Survived it.
Kind of enjoyed it from time to time.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Skully, how is it going? If you have a couple of days off run down to the hills and we can knock out a tower route or climb some ice. The cave is getting fat finally.
A lot of people are buying property in the Black Hills that work in ND. You can live pretty large on $100k around here.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Howdy, Mike, Greg & all...here's what I do. There are over 8000 oil wells here, more going in every day. They run pipelines to get the oil to refineries....eventually. Until then, we truck the oil to pipeline stations or railheads. A million barrels a day means MANY trucks. There are many openings. They truck everything...rigs, frack sand, water, heavy equipment, etc. It's utter chaos most times. Madness.....you get used to it.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Plaid, when did you live in grand lake? I have two brothers that live in the valley. One in fraser one on Tabertrash. They have been there for over twenty years and climb a lot. Pretty small place really.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Did you hear?
North Dakota is trying to secede to Canada as a tourism ploy.
If ND suceeds in becoming part of Canada, then ND can advertise as Canada's southern-most - and balmiest - province.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Mike I was in Grand Lake from 95 to 2002. Didn't start climbing till 2004.
Plaid
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spulver
climber
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May 15, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
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I've been working in Williston, ND since last fall. I'm getting out of shape, anyone interested in taking weekend trips down to South Dakota or Devil's Tower?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Jul 29, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
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I can go any Wednesday.....
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Just got our first "real" snowfall...it snowed before but didnt stick.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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In North Dakota and Colorado, voters rejected 2-to-1 so-called personhood measures, which would give legal rights to fetuses.
 They are doing much better now... They won't be having any of those pesky fetuses running things in their state any time soon...
Oh, I know some people can argue that a fetus should have rights... if they want rights... They should just say so!
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life is a bivouac
Trad climber
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I know this is a little off geographically, how ever, I lived in and around McMurdo in Antarctica for three contracts... I, at least, got used to -40, without the wind... It's the wind that cuts like so many razors...
It'll take a while for your body to adapt to the cold and a bit longer for your brain to get used to the dark; by then, slowly the sun will start to brighten the sky for you, and you'll have your first winter done.
Cheers!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 10, 2014 - 09:22am PT
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If ND suceeds in becoming part of Canada, then ND can advertise as Canada's southern-most - and balmiest - province.
They could advertise that, but they'd be wrong on both counts. Ontario streches much further south, and southwestern BC has a far balmier climate.
Sorry ND, but all you'd get out of joining Canada would be a decent medical system. And the ability to visit Saskatoon without needing a passport.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 10, 2014 - 09:29am PT
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In response to the original question:
If you have to ask, you don't wanna know the answer.
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Andrew Yantes
Gym climber
Bismarck
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I am born and raised in North Dakota and currently live in boulder Colorado. The black hills about 4 hours to the south of bismarck offers great climbing and hiking! I love the weather here in Colorado and we enjoy the ability to always be outside climbing fishing and hiking but we will be moving back to North Dakota as soon as I graduate from med school. North Dakota is cold...no doubt but the people work hard and will work hard for a stranger if they need it. Nothing you own gets stolen. If you pay for a job it gets done and gets done well. There are no or very few people who want to take things they haven't earned. Your work commute will be 5-10 minutes so enjoy that extra hour of sleep. Maybe 1 murder in the entire state a year and violent crime is almost non existent. One would be hard pressed to find a state or cities with a better sense of community and togetherness. Wages are great and cost of living is reasonable. There is some racism among the older generations but I've seen this same group of people raise money to pay for food and shelter for racially diverse groups of people that don't have the means to live comfortably in the community. Winter is harsh but we learn to love winter activities like hockey, fishing, hunting, gatherings with friends, even some skiing and snowboarding! I know this thread is old but we would love to have you if you decide to come! In the summers we have the Missouri river for recreation in bismarck and almost everyone owns a lake cabin somewhere in the state. The badlands in the western part of state are gorgeous!! I started climbing here in Colorado but if i jog my memory from camping and hunting trips in the badlands i do believe there is some opportunity for climbing
It's fun to rag on north Dakota but a lot of us like it that way. As long as it remains a secret we get to enjoy this place as it has been for a century or so!
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Andrew Yantes
Gym climber
Bismarck
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The sarcasm is appreciated, al. ;) The question was "how horrible is North Dakota" when I see replies like The only thing to do in North Dakota is drink and get pregnant it's hard not to give my experience there. I've had an extremely enriching outdoor experience growing up there with plenty to do and plenty of untouched land.
The badlands have some opportunity for climbing...I'm in the process of doing some research on climbing in north dakota I just don't but that there isn't more to offer than meets the eye.
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