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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 22, 2003 - 03:40am PT
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I just got back from springbreak with my family from a favorite climbing/campsite of ours where we never ever ran into anyone else.
It was our own little heaven. I have not been back to this spot since I put up 6 first ascents on this formation with careful thought
and consideration 8 years ago---mostly leads, some TRs, but all valid. (I disagree with those who say TRs are not true 1st ascents.
Some people actually want to do more climbing with less impact). The last time we climbed/camped there Meatloaf
was filming his musicvideo "I'd Lie for You (And That's The Truth)." Now "The Pillar of Light" has been turned into a climbing gym
with 4 sets of cold shuts at the top and with bolts on my routes that I never placed. Nothing is ran-out now. You can practically aid from bolt to bolt. The
one lonely original split-shank buttonhead X rated run-out route that was there even before my time is virtually gone.
Some of my bolts have been pulled and I found one discarded lying on the ground. While we were there a couple quickly drives in
and parks right next to us and they have a new guide book. I didn't know about it. Turns out our favorite campsite has now been
designated a parking area according to the guide that has been published on this once quiet classic climbing region that I have
been visiting since 1973. One of the climbs that I put up graces the cover of the guidebook (by the way, the name of the climb is "Realm of Light"and I
have plenty of pre-dating velvia slides of the day and the formation), with an article about that experience and then names the formation and routes that I did.
The author was nice enough to say that the FAs are unknown. How does one go about naming a route that you know you didn't do first? I would never
cosider doing that. I'm not into chopping bolts or damaging the rock further. I don't play that mindless game. But it sure pisses me off.
I leave for a few years to paraglide and raise a family, knowing I would continue climbing after reaching and being able to maintain a competent
level in that sport. The climbing scene/community has changed so much since I have been gone, but I can see not necessarily for the better.
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Bob Jones
Trad climber
san luis obispo
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Apr 22, 2003 - 05:06am PT
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when i was a kid, i surfed this spot by myself. perfect waves and no crowds. now when i surf there, i have to fight for waves...
welcome to the real world. tell people to stop having kids, then we can have the rocks to ourselves.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Apr 22, 2003 - 01:11pm PT
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tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
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tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
tell people to stop having kids
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 22, 2003 - 01:29pm PT
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Klimmer said "it was our own little heaven" and "have not been back ... 8 years ago" ... Gee buddy. Maybe you should have climbed a little more at said crag and had a little say in the ethic that developed there. sorry if I don't sympathize much with your bereaved post, but if you drop out of the climbing community, don't expect a guidebook author to be able to hunt you down to credit you, or a FAist to be able to find you to ask if he can retrobolt anachronistic X-rated routes in an area that's become a sport climbing destination.
Anyway, you don't own the land, the campsite, or the rock, and don't expect things to be the same after 8 years of absence.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Twain Harte, Ca
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Apr 22, 2003 - 03:47pm PT
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ZPG, baby
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Apr 22, 2003 - 03:57pm PT
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Zip-lock bag full of Pungent baby Guts.
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Southern Man
climber
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Apr 22, 2003 - 04:58pm PT
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If you look at most (if not all) of the problems in the world today, the root of the problem can be distilled down to one thing: too many people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like Minerals said, stop having so many children!!!!!!!!!!
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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Apr 22, 2003 - 05:29pm PT
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Klimmer I feel for you. Dave you sound kind of like a knob, your probably the guy who claimed teh FA after you noticed old bolts.
If there is any amount of fixed hardware relics on a cliff, then you know you aren't the first one there. california must have some new school overcrowding ethic.
Whatever though, more people = more bullsh#t.
My favorite area in the world has for 45 years been the bastion of gnarly and proud ground-up assaults producing 2000 foot adventures. It is know on the cover of climbing, it features an article profiling people working and bolting. It is just new climbers not jiving with old ethics. Nothing can be done. I am glad I was in on some of the last seasons of the true adventure ambiance (sp) down there.
Enjoy heaven while it lasts, no sympathy from this crowd.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Twain Harte, Ca
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Apr 22, 2003 - 06:23pm PT
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Zip-lock bag full of Pungent baby Guts.
sounds like I've got a new rap-bolt project.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
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Apr 22, 2003 - 08:16pm PT
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I can sympathize. My advise, when you find your little piece of heaven, soak it up, live it to the fullest, leave and never come back. How many of us have returned to ‘the old swimming hole’ after a few years to find it trashed. If you truly love a place, and the memories of the good times had there, don’t go back. You’ll almost certainly be disappointed. Times change, places change. Relish your memories and seek out new secret spots that the masses haven’t destroyed yet.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Apr 22, 2003 - 10:48pm PT
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"Like Minerals said..."
I believe Bob said it first and I merely copied it... and copied it...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2003 - 12:56am PT
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It isn't exactly about ZPG. It isn't about maintaining unsafe runout routes. The original X route put-in on the formation
I left in place after doing it two different times out of respect for the original ascent party. I used it as a means to put it my
additional sport routes that were very thoughtfully done---not overbolted or underbolted; just right. Kind of a hybred trad/sport route.The line of
bolts I put on/near the classic arete that is featured on the cover of the guide book allowed for 3 different variations
without the addition of more bolts. The other lead climbs used part of the bolts that diagnalled across the eastface
to do direct variations of the formation without the addition of more bolts. Like I said, do more with less. The lines were very
nice, the bolts were safe 5-piece rawl with metolious hangers, and several other climbs were easily TRed with the addition of 2 safe bolts at the top as opposed
to just the one ring bolt put in by the original ascent party. Now many more bolts have been added. Your grandparents could climb them
and not feel any sense of risk. I come from a tradition that if you don't pull-up and mantle to the top and step onto the summit (if it has a summit)
then you haven't finished the climb. How often have you done a route to be killed-off by the finishing mantel because your strenght is zapped.
Climbers using the 4 sets of cold-shuts now featured on the formation have not finished the climb---those ascents are incomplete. Neither
do these climbers learn or develope more rope work. I rapped-off using a very carefully set-up self untieing rappel sling, backed-up by
the weathered slings left by the original ascent party.
There was a climbing event at this famous area recently which I didn't attend. I think I was busy flossing or doing something more meaningful. It is sad that
very well known people so connected in the climbing community would do this to this area and do this to another climber. To never return to this area is
simply impossible and not an option.That would be like asking Muir to leave the Range of Light, or asking the late great Galen Rowell to refrain from taking images of the
Eastern Sierras. They could never do that. Nor can I stay away. It is a life source.
It is just so odd that the climb I put-up---"Realm of Light", and have taken many images of in many different lighting conditions would play soo big a part in this guidebook.
It is an incredible pillar with a very awesome backdrop. That was by definite choice. To top it off the same image from the cover of the guidebook you can buy as a postcard
throughout the region now. Well if justice and truth exist, then both products should be amended to record the true name and history. Well we will see . . .
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 23, 2003 - 01:13am PT
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The guidebook in question says in the intro something like "we respected first ascents and didn't add bolts."
Then the specific route descriptions mention multiple routes where they did just that.
And the associated website called for making a 5.6 with one bolt (which fell out) into a sport climb...
I replaced the bolt (which had fallen out), along with two 1/4" with Leepers on another unknown crack to face, and emailed the author to please respect the FA and NOT add bolts to the routes. I figure if the original 1/4" bolts are replaced with bomber modern bolts in the original hole, maybe they'll realize that some in the climbing community want to maintain the traditions while updating the existing bolts and NOT add bolts.
By the way, I assume the beautiful run-out 150' tall arete on the tallest rock in the area (to the left of the single-bolt Bartlett route on the same face) is yours from the descriptions you gave above. If so, thanks, it's an awesome line and well done.
Greg
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2003 - 02:46am PT
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Sorry, that isn't my route that you are thinking of and its a different formation.
My routes are on the formation that the author is calling "The Shark Fin". I've
been calling this formation "The Pillar of Light." Anyway we both could be blowing
smoke when it turns out that the original ascentionist with 2 buttonhead bolts steps up and calls
it "". And then says, "And by the way I free-soloed everyline on the pillar already."
I'd say "Doh!" And then bow in recognition.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
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Apr 23, 2003 - 03:10am PT
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This whole thing is so cryptic.... WTF... who are you, what is the area and who are the retrobolting chumps? Sheesh.... grow a hair and air it out. How can I or anyone else be outraged at some mythical area getting pussified when the combatants are unknown. If it P.O'd you enough to write about it, spill the beans or simmer down. Take a freakin' stand.....
Russ
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Bob Jones
Trad climber
san luis obispo
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Apr 23, 2003 - 05:45am PT
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good point russ.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
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Apr 23, 2003 - 08:06am PT
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"grow a hair", Ha Ha
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 23, 2003 - 10:44am PT
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BrentA, I don't even know what area he's talking about. I won't even stoop to respond to the rest of your personal attack.
Well said Russ.
Dave
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2003 - 11:58am PT
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Russ,
I was trying to be a little criptic on purpose because I don't really want the area more exposed to abuse.
I have given plenty of clues to those who know. I do not know who has done all the retro-bolting, but I know of
the guidebook author. The area is in your backyard. Think famous Hollywood filming area. You probably know
the guidebook author since he doesn't live too far from you. I am not dialed into the climbing scene (I don't know
everyone personnally in the climbing industry as you may). I have been climbing and skiing for a long time with out any fanfare.
The way I would like to keep it. I would have preferred the area to stay quiet, relaxed, and awesome for those who know.
Now everyone will know. The change has been forced. And this is not good in my opinion.
Some people who know of me in your neck of the woods: I'm from San Diego and I have paraglided with Kari Castle, SP Parker, have talked with
Kevin Colder and Verne Clevenger a little about the Rowell plane accident last August. I am a part time (vacation time) resident of Bishop.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Apr 23, 2003 - 12:30pm PT
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Yes, we put in a lot of bolts. Mostly for rap anchors.
There was only one bolt on the formation, that I know of, and that bolt was quite close to the ground. We assumed it was a bail bolt. How were we to know the crag was "yours," and off limits to development? Telepathy?
I'll be back there again this summer. If you have a beef with our development, meet us up there and we'll hash it out. Otherwise, quit it with the coy attacks. If there is a guidebook out, the cat's out of the bag anyways.
Oh, wait...
The area I'm thinking of isn't IN any guidebooks. Nevermind. But the rest of my issues apply, regardless.
Brutus
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MikeA
climber
Layton, Utah
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Apr 23, 2003 - 01:19pm PT
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"I was trying to be a little criptic on purpose because I don't really want the area more exposed to abuse."
Then shut the funk up!
You're such a damn whiner. You put up routes 10 years ago, then disappear off the face of the earth and expect everyone to know that you intended for your routes to have no anchors!?
If you're not going to participate in the climbing community, you don't write down and publicize your routes, then you surrender all rights to complain about it when someone else comes along. Although it's obvious to YOU that the routes had been climbed, it isn't obvious to everyone.
I would guess "most" climbers find it terribly inconvenient to have a bolted sport route with no anchors. Whoever added an anchor probably thought he was doing a service by correcting the cheap-ass attempt of the FA'er to save a little money, and screw every climber that comes along afterward. If you're putting steel into rock, you've already crossed the ethical line, so at least do it right and put in a proper anchor.
There is a climbing COMMUNITY. If you're not participating in it, then stop complaining, or go back to jumping off cliffs.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 23, 2003 - 02:20pm PT
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Hey Russ,
maybe he knows more than he's letting on -
and is trying to avoid getting sued....
Greg (this post is copyrighted...)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2003 - 02:36pm PT
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Mike A,
We are not just talking about adding cold-shuts to an already existing line of bolts and great anchors at the top.
We are talking about adding many more bolts to an obvious line of pre-existing bolts on the climb itself.
For the retro-climbers to claim they didn't know there was a climb there already, they would have to blind
and "__" (you fill in the missing abusive name for yourself). Like I said, you're grandparents could easily
do the climb with no fear at all. Why bother? Why not just top rope it now since the danger and fear is now exactly
the same. When you climb these routes now, it is as though you are walking a top rope up the climb as you go. How
adventurous is that? There is very little respect in the climbing community now. It is a sad state of affairs and a
mirror of society. Sad, very sad . . .
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pinkpoint
Social climber
Nevada
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Apr 23, 2003 - 02:39pm PT
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I used to boulder up at the Gun Club, or Lizard's mouth, above Santa Barbara back in the mid eighties. I worked on one tall boulder face many times before getting the nerve to do a strenuous mantle about 15' up. I went back a few years ago, and found anchor bolts at the top. Ha. Like a big wankstain, if you ask me.
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Demented
climber
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Apr 23, 2003 - 02:58pm PT
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Problem is... we're all so into being studs and studettes..
Can't just do a climb and enjoy the moves (i.e. sometimes it's OK to top rope? Rather plaster every inch of rock with a bolt)..
I know, I know.. a *real* climber has to be a bad ass and lead it (clipping a bolt every 10'; yea that's real bad).
Another problem is this "oh-so-secret" location was always regarded as chossy. Pretty much a pile (rightly or wrongly). So- no strong ethic ever developed. Makes it easier to turn it into a sport climbin' rodeo ...
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MikeA
climber
Layton, Utah
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Apr 23, 2003 - 05:28pm PT
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"We are not just talking about adding..."
I don't know what you are talking about because it's a big secret. Remember? So until you tell us what we're talking about, you'll have to whine elsewhere to get sympathy.
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lin
Trad climber
ca
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Apr 23, 2003 - 06:29pm PT
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Klimmer
You are one super cool guy if you ask me. You do a lot of whinning for being gone from the climbing community for 8 years.
Do you even realize that the sport has evolved. If it was your piece of paridise and such a great area, why didn't you just fence it off and charge
people to climb your incredible routes with out any anchors? If it wasn't your property then maybe you shouldn't have put the few bolts in,
because maybe the land owner didn't want the bolts in anyway.
Keep up the good whinning it makes for fun threads.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Apr 23, 2003 - 09:03pm PT
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I can deduce the area being discussed and I haven't even been there. I guess that's proof postitive that the cat's out of the bag on this particular spot. I can sympathize with the remorse one might feel at seeing a once tranquil and hidden spot developed and publicized. However, if you didn't want to participate and guide the development you can only complain so much.
fyi. I've noticed lots of pictures of this area on RC.com recently. Seems like it's popular with SoCal climbers.
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 23, 2003 - 10:40pm PT
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Blaming everything on overpopulation is simplistic as hell and predictably dirtbag. The traffic on the captain, for example, in 2003 versus 1963 is a growth far beyond that of population. It's related to publicity and propaganda, including mags, but more likely to the fact that we keep returning ourselves and to our own inabilities to shut our own mouths. Nor, apparently, does anyone on this thread seem to see the irony of someone being present at a crag while being pissed at anyone else's right to be present. The issues here are personal, involving ego and self-interest, and are unrelated to the existence of other human beings.
PS: kids invented climbing.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 23, 2003 - 10:44pm PT
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"but more likely to the fact that we keep returning ourselves and to our own inabilities to shut our own mouths."
Too true...
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Bob Jones
Trad climber
san luis obispo
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Apr 23, 2003 - 11:50pm PT
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yo....monkies invented climbing.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 24, 2003 - 12:46am PT
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and monkies invented kids .... sort of. or something.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2003 - 01:00pm PT
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After re-reading all the posts, it seems to me there are two very distictive camps of climbers:
Those who probably started climbing before the advent of sportclimbing and respect history,
but can also appreciate a well done sport route.
Those who started after the advent of sport climbing and say "Screw-it I'm going to do whatever
the hell I want because nobody owns the rock." That my friend is anarchy.
I will be getting in touch with the guidebook author after I simmer down a bit.
But, with his very bizarre entry on the title page "All route names, ratings, and descriptions
by _ and _ are copyrighted 2002 and may not be used without permission."
Makes one wonder if that would be very smart? Yea, I'm worried about getting sued (he-he-he).
Wouldn't that be a funny and hilarious issue on court TV? First ascentionist gets sued by
guidebook author . . .LOL
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Apr 25, 2003 - 06:05pm PT
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Adding bolts to old runouts is the norm now, we can thank the bafoons at ASCA and the magazines for promoting "safe" climbing. In yosemite new bolts are popping up everywhere even on routes established in the 60's, if the old dads didn't need them with hemp ropes and tennis shoes why are these sacred bolts necessary in the year 2003 with aliens, C4, and micro-cams? What needs to happen is these Do-Rights need to remmember no matter how many bolts you add/replace climbing will always be DEATH! step off the ground and DIE! Chop Bolts, Preserve Runouts, save climbing from the Sport!
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Apr 25, 2003 - 06:45pm PT
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Sounds really scary.
Here's a thought- maybe there are more than 2 types of climbers, maybe you are over simplifying things to suit your own idea of right and wrong. I have to agree w/ those who say you are in no position to complain when you chose not to participate.
Even now you are vague about this magical climbing spot, presumably because the 25 people who might read this thread will surely show up on every weekend w/ all of their friends and pets in tow? Perhaps if you weren't trying to keep it such a secret in the first place the rest of the climbing community would have had the opportunity to respect your FAs and the style you climbed them in...
But where were you?
And who knew about the area?
You were always secretive about that place, weren't you?
So you were hoarding the knowledge of this cragg like a hermit w/ his secret burried treasure?
So where did that get you?
Whose fault is it then?
And why do you get to complain about it to us?
Not a fan of the bolts, but not a fan of the way you paint this picture and point the finger at everyone else, dude- and to expect everyone to do the self cleaning rap-sling trick is a joke.
-Fc
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2003 - 06:33pm PT
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I promise this will be the last word about this on this forum from me.
Yes, there are more than 2 kinds of climbers; I generalized to make a point.
Most generalizations have a kernal of truth in them though.
I did participate in the climbing community when I made the decision to put in some very nice climbs
in a once very classic and quiet climbing area. It had history even though most didn't hear about it or
read about it. If you went there and participated over the years you bouldered free solo or tope-roped
mostly. A few very run-out routes were put in with button-heads. It had history. All you had to do was
open your eyes and observe. The formation I've been talking about here had a very run-out 2 bolt lead
that diagnalled across the east face of the formation with the start on the northface. Whoever that 1st
ascentionist was participated in the climbing community also. It doesn't take rocket science to see what
they did and why. A ground-up runout lead on a classic formation with an awesome view. I respected
that climb, lead it several times and left it as it was out of respect. Now in the unnamed guidebook, they
don't even show this climb. Noone would know about it since it is virtually erased. I used it to get to the
top and do my own leads. I made my statement with my climbs. A little runout but with great 5-piece bolts
and very good anchors at the top. Again, it doesn't take rocket science to know what I meant and that is
the way I chose to put in these climbs. Both of us participated in the community of climbing and made our
statements. If you choose to put it a new climb and put your bolts in every dawm 3 feet then that is your
choice on your first ascent. Everyone else will probably leave it alone. We might laugh, but that is your
statement. Now we get others who are retrobolting and adding more bolts to already done finished climbs. That
is unethical no matter how you look at it. If you don't like it don't lead it. Set-up a toprope if you can instead. Don't change
history. Show respect.
Now if an old route needs new bolts because it is dangerous since the original
bolts are decaying then that is a different matter. But again, don't add more bolts just replace the bad
existing ones. It is all very logical and simple. You also preserve the climbing history of the place.
Not every climbing area needs to be published or have a guidebook done on it. I'm not anti-guidebook.
It just would be very nice to know some (or many) places could be kept quiet and left alone for those
who happen to discover it, so they can then enjoy it without the place changing a great deal over time. Slow as opposed
to overnight. This guidebook has not been out for very long and the place has already radically changed
and not for the better. This is a very visible area in the public eye (literally) and bad ethics can (or will) destroy the place
for everyone.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 28, 2003 - 07:48pm PT
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Klimmer, I read through the exchange that developed, and your last post, and i actually respect what you said. It turns out I climbed at said area a month ago for the first time, and I didn't know there was a guidebook out until we ran into some locals the end of the second day. I certainly don't know about quiet and pristine - there were 4-wheelers and dirt bikes buzzing around all day.
As for the idea that the "guidebook is just out and the area has already changed dramatically," I'm not sure about that one. Seems to me from what the locals told me, that one guy had been putting up most of the routes for over four years. I didn't look to see the copyright date on the book. I won't argue with you over the ethics of retrobolting and overbolting your routes and others, but I agree with the sentiments of previous posts that if you had been around to participate during your 8-year absence, things might have been different. I know when i go to a new area, i look for published material and talk to people around the area to see what the deal is. If no one is around and nothing is published, and most routes are topropes, how is someone to know what the ethic is? They'd assume its undeveloped.
The routes we climbed were safe (aside from crumbling rock), but they weren't overbolted like you mention (we didn't make it to your tower, don't think), and they weren't anywhere close to the obscenity at Sport Park in Boulder Canyon, CO.
Simply not publishing a guidebook does not keep people away. i lived and climbed in new mexico for a while, and knew the developers of a stellar area. They had no intention of publishing anything on the area, and requested that no one else put anything out. But from the people they new, and took there, word spread and eventually hundereds of people were visiting. Never many at a time, but enough to impact the area, and eventually cause a forest fire.
Anyway, the impact of climbers here is still pretty minimal relative to other uses.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
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Apr 28, 2003 - 08:07pm PT
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Hey Fresno Dave,
Where in The Land of Entrapment did u used to live?
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 28, 2003 - 10:07pm PT
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Hell. Oh, wait. Carlsbad. Just for a year and a half, before I came to my senses and escaped back to Colorado.
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JR
climber
boulder, CO
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Apr 29, 2003 - 03:54pm PT
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Dave-
I lived and climbed extensively in NM for 5 years and I'm having difficulty thinking of the semi-secret climbing area that was burned as a result of increased climber usage.
If you are speaking of the Dungeon near Los Alamos, then yes, that was scorched by fire, but it was not caused by climbers. That was the huge fire that burned homes in Los Alamos and large chunks of the Jemez... that fire was started by a controlled park service burn in Bandelier that got out of control. "Hundreds of people" visiting this, or any other NM area, is certainly an exageration.
If you are talking about the climbing near Alamogordo or Queen, then has there been a fire at one of these areas?
Anyway, don't knock NM... there are certainly a lot worse places one can live and be a climber (though I feel for you on that Carlsbad thing)
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
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Apr 29, 2003 - 08:06pm PT
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Shut the F up! I lived in Carlsbad (aka Hooterville) for 1 1/2 years between 94-96. Moved there primarily for the caving but ended up putting up a few routes with some buddies in the Dark Canyon area on the way towards the Guads. Who'd you climb w/ out there?
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Apr 29, 2003 - 08:45pm PT
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Re-reading this thread, I am reminded of a once quiet, pristine area where for more than 20 years climbers established routes on lead, ground-up. The routes and the style in which they were established were obvious to any climber who happened to stumble upon the area.
These routes (Reverse Osmosis, Shady Lane, etc.) have since been retrobolted and criscrossed with rap-established sport lines.
Then came a guidebook: Climbers Guide to New Jack City.
Brutus
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 29, 2003 - 11:32pm PT
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Surfaced - that's hilarious! I was there 2000-2001. I climbed with Curtis and Michelle Perry some (GMO), Angel once or twice (he was probably active in 94-96), John and Carol Gogas, and a few of their Texas crowd. My main partner was new to the area, too. Gogas' introduced us to a bunch of the Hueco locals, but the park was in the height of Nazi-ism, so we didn't go out there much.
You ever make it up to Enchanted Tower? That place was a hoot.
Did you put up the routes on Black Wall, or the Forbidden Wall (closer to town)? A couple routes on Forbidden Wall fell down while I was there. 10 ton chunks came off the upper part of the wall.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
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Apr 30, 2003 - 09:18am PT
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I've known Curtis (aka cutis)& Michelle for years. We've caved together & partied even more. Do they still live south of town? Used to have jam sessions in the shop behind the house. Even woke up plastered in puke once next to that abandoned school bus in the back! I knew them before they owned Guad Mountain Outfitters, when they bought it from Harry & his wife. A lot of those old Metolius climbing holds in the back of their shop were hand me downs from me. Small world.
Never been out to enchanted tower, and to my knowledge the routes in Dark Canyon were never named (?) but I don’t doubt some have fallen apart. We had to clean a lot of those with crowbars before we could climb them.
If you talk to the Perry’s tell them Dually says Hi!
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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Apr 30, 2003 - 09:22pm PT
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Brutus, I lived in Barstow and Apple Valley from 89-92 and climbed quite a bit at New Jack City. I never saw any other climbers there. I moved away and was thinking of taking a trip back there recently and a friend told me not to bother, it was too trashed and crowded. Is this true?
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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I climbed at New Jack in 1984 - 1986, while living in Barstow and working at Fort Irwin. I climbed primarily with folks I taught how to belay, and the occasional friend willing to be terrified out there.
At that time, we established several climbs in ground-up style, but based on the nature of the rock (from iron hard to disintegrating choss) I felt its potential for this kind of climbing was limited to either few routes or the chronically suicidal. (After the FA of Reverse Osmosis, 5.11a R/X, my belayer gave up climbing, gained 60 pounds, and took up golf. He said he'd never been so terrified belaying a climb, me above shaking and weeping, he expecting my body at any moment to come hurtling to earth along with the pieces of rock I was dislodging)
I was there last about 2 years ago. Lots more climbers on the weekends, but didn't have to wait in line for any routes. And route development was proceeding full force. As far as the area being trashed, I think it is actually cleaner now then when I was living in Barstow. Less broken glass for sure, and the camping scene seems a lot safer with other climbers about.
The rock where sport routes are established has in some cases been heavily cleaned. More power to Jack and his circle, imho. I will happily visit the area again and again, as a side trip enroute to Red Rocks or Josh, from the Bay Area.
Brutus
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DE
Mountain climber
Tustin, Calif.
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Aug 10, 2004 - 06:18pm PT
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I can't believe you guys are talking about NJC, I thought you said "Paradise." There are other places to climb near there that aren't trashed.
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jfailing
Trad climber
Lone Pine
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This thread is an interesting read with the knowledge that the OP is talking about the Alabama Hills, not NJC.
Old post, when Supertopo was young apparently...
My thoughts - If it made you so mad Klimmer, why didn't you contact Strassman about the routes you put up?
Also, if there was already a bolt on the formation you're talking about (which turns out to be probably the most popular formation in the AL hills), is it possible that in fact people climbed the routes before you did?
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Interesting history from 2003. Thanks for the bump.
I recall the Alabama hills with no bolts and finding a decent route to TR was tough without drilling.
Times change. The world is getting more crowded. An attitude of sharing and friendliness is going to make a happier life that anger and regret. Those who try to make a last stand over their own little private crag on public lands are doomed to be washed away by the tide.
Better to post your routes and route names on MountainProject.com and share with all the joy and art that you have created.
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