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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 27, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
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At History of Gear I've recently obtained a very strange label. It's from a duffle bag that dates from about 1980. I've counterpoised it to the more well-known "Chouinard" label from roughly the early 80s. Are there any of you who can fill us in on the various "Chouinard" companies that arose before he became the pre-eminent guy at Patagonia?
-Bruce
http://www.historyofgear.com
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 28, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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As a "self-professed" expert-----on the history of Chouinard climbing gear.
I don't have a clue!
The only idea I can mention relates to my climbing (and drinking) with an Ausi in Yosemite in the late 70's.
He explained that his father was a gear importer/distributor in Australia.
When my climbing buddy figured out that Patagonia was going to be a big name in the USA, he talked his father into trademarking/copywriting/whatever?? you need to do to "sew-up" a brand name in Australia.
He claimed: they were then able to negotiate with Chouinard to become the Australian distributor for Patagonia.
Sooooo
Think of a company in a smaller country doing the same or similar shist with Chouinard.
That's the best I can offer!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 28, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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Check this site ou.
http://www.breathnaigh.org/breathnaigh--observations/2011/02/chouinard-equipment-for-alpinists.html
Posted by: Nike Air Max | 05/06/2011 at 05:10 AM
I can help here. I live near Seoul. The Chouinard Dragon packs were made in Korea some years ago and were very popular with Korean climbers. I believe Chouinard himself was here for a while. I have been collecting the packs, which occasionally appear in the weekly flea market here; originally simply prompted by their great design and their association with the great man. They are well-designed, and have lasted well. All sizes from as low as 10 liters (?) thru to what must be 80 liters or more, though the larger packs suffer from being noticeably weighty by modern standards. Colors are usually red (with black backs and leather attachments), or a yellow/brown, or occasionally blue. There are some A-shapes as well as the traditional box style.
It seems that these packs were succeeded by those made by Jackal (again in Korea) - I often notice (used) Jackal packs for sale in the market that are all-but-identical to the later Chouinard packs (usually around 50, 60 or 70 liters, and again too heavy by modern standards).
The Ultima Thule packs also seemed to replace the Chouinard Dragon or evolve out of them; I think there was some kind of relationship with Jackal.
Now and then (like a week ago) I see what may well be the original owners still wearing Chouinard Dragon packs. In these cases the pack is (in contrast to the packs on sale in the market) usually really worn, and I rather imagine the owners have used them continuously from purchase new. I've even made offers to such individuals to buy the pack off their back, but with no success!
Older Koreans who are keen climbers or who have worked in mountain shops for some time, recall the packs with affection and respect.
I have also seen a few small Chouinard Dragon packs (red) that were made in Japan (possibly made in Korea for Japan).
And this one.
http://www.croster.co.jp/en/history.html
1972
We concluded the agreement with The Great Pacific Iron Works, the US company established by Yvon Chouinard (Chouinard Equipment Company) to be their exclusive agency in Japan. We registered Choinard Dragon as the trademark for their bags and sporting goods sold in Japan.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 28, 2012 - 12:18am PT
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Reading the previous posts:
Makes sense to me.
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
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What fun we're having here with these old Chouinard labels! Okay, let me throw this into the mix just to mess up everyone's minds! Here is the label from a pair of Peter Carman Supergaitors. Remember them? And who exactly was Peter Carman? And, what's his name doing on the "Dragon" type label from Japan?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Thanks for the old gear heads up! I've never seen a Chouinard Dragon. Or Bruces ....whatever animal that is on the gator label :-) either. Great stuff.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Peter was something of a bad ass, from a climbing family, Harvard,
moved to Jackson Hole.
Anguish and Scole could say more, or correct me on my errors.
One of at least three climbing brothers, Harvard Mountaineer approximately
contemporary with Dave Roberts, I believe he did big things in Alaska,
after moving to Jackson Hole he developed the SuperGator which was the gold
standard for a while. Minimally adjustable (lots of different sizes), very
stable, dry and warm for its time.
A really nice guy, as is his brother Dave.
His son is a really good climber as well.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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a bump for some additions, and to say that the mystery animal is no doubt
a Super Gator.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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scuffy b: I will go with the Carmen Logo being a "Super Gator!"
I am away from my old Chouinard catalogs, but I have memories of Carmen Super Gators being in some in the mid-70's.
I loved my old Super-Gators and even wore them to the Hayes Range in 1976 with single boots.
So------did the Japanese & Koreans buy, borrow, or steal: the Carmen Super Gator Logo?
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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This is fun again! So, if the given Croster date of acquisition of 1972 is accurate, then Pete Carman would have introduced his SuperGator product/label prior to 1972 if it was going to be acquired by Croster in 1972.... So there's a timeline for you old SuperGator owners to research: how early was the SuperGator introduced?
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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There is a story in here about Chouinard losing one or several of his US Registered names in Japan years ago when his Japanese agent registered said names in Japan and gained ownership!
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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By the way, what is the proper spelling of Peter Carman vs Peter Carmen? The label seems to show an "a" which would make it Carman....
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Pete Carman. Just had dinner with him and his wife Suellen a week or so ago. Pete and his brother Dave are both friends of mine. Pete had a sewing business in Jackson in the early to late seventies called Uptown sewing. They designed and made great gaiters, packs, and other climber related stuff back when there wasn't much else available. It was all really well made. Rumor has it that Pete taught Yvon how to ice climb. GPIW sold the super gaitors but I think they were still made here in Jackson. His brother Dave was a lead Exum guide for 30 years or so and did the second ascent of the West face of Cerro Torre in Feb 1977. Theres a picture of him climbing on the mushroom in Yvons Climbing Ice book.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I bought a pair of Super Gators in December 1975, if that helps....
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rmeurant
climber
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I am the author of philo's longer quote (not Nike Air Max).
I just wanted to clarify further - Chouinard Dragon packs were made both by Croster in Japan, and by Jackal in Korea. The logos used on the packs appear to be the same, as does the leather fitting that connects the strap tops to the pack with Chouinard's signature (on larger packs). The Korean packs have labels inside them that state that they were made by Jackal. The only Japanese packs I have seen did not have corresponding labels inside them (or had they been removed?). Some of the Japanese/Croster packs spell Dragon as Doragon, but I have never seen that spelling on a Korean pack.
These packs are well designed, as you would expect, and long-lasting. I often wonder who had the pleasure of designing them - did Chouinard himself design them all? There were many variations, though a consistent aesthetic is evident throughout. The larger packs characteristically have two stays of what I presume to be aluminum, and can be removed; one mid-sized pack I bought recently has two spring steel stays riveted into place - I use it regularly and it offers great support.
Subsequent to making Chouinard Dragon packs (I presume immediately after), Jackal appears to have made virtually identical packs but with the Jackal logo and name rather than with that of Chouinard Dragon. Jackal later made Chouinard Ultima Thule packs, with the logo embossed into the fabric, not as visually appealing. But then "Ultima Thule" seems to have been picked up by a number of Korean pack manufacturers and used rather indiscriminately (and without attribution to "Chouinard").
I have never seen the Great Pacific Iron Works name or logo associated with a Korean pack.
Jackal still exists in Korea, but they make only a few lines of packs, as well as other hiking/climbing gear including tents.
Kind regards,
Rob. Meurant in Seoul
rmeurant at me dot com
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rmeurant
climber
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P.S.
A recent acquisition:
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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My! there are several of you who've contributed some great new material. I think I'll break up my responses into 2-3 posts.
First, to Norm, about your recent dinner with Pete Carman! Your words reminded me to check my 1976-77 Rivendell Mountain Works catalog. Sure enough, the cover photo shows Patagonian peaks which I assume include Cerro Torre, and the picture is credited to "Dave Carman." Through other sources, I have heard Dave was friends with Larry Horton (founder of Rivendell). Larry was a pretty high-grade climber himself--others have told me this and sent me a few pictures of some climbs.
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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Thanks for clarifying the point about their being Croster in Japan with the Chouinard Dragon, and ALSO this company named Jackal in South Korea. That was becoming a bit confusing. The picture of the red Croster-made pack with the Dragon label is much appreciated. I see what you mean about the packs being high quality and ones which many have treasured and preserved!
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Feb 10, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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Seems to me that in a piece about Harvard Mountaineers, it was Pete and
Dave's older brother who was named as one of the guys who did the rooftop
traverse on a fast-moving car (climb out the window on the right, climb
back in on the left).
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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POP TENT HISTORY: And my last response to recent posts concerns Croster in Japan. When I went to the link shown in the post from (http://www.croster.co.jp/en/history.html); I found some highly interesting material that was not related to Chouinard Dragons or to packs!
The website writes that Croster invented "the World's first dome tent," and gives a date of 1959.
I wonder if any of you wish to comment on this claim?
I'd read that the U.S.-made "POP TENT" had been designed in 1955 by none other than Bill Moss (the official Moss website says this). The Pop Tent certainly looks like a "dome tent" to me.
The Pop Tent was sold by one of those older, traditional companies, I think Thermos. See the picture I've included.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Feb 10, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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I dug out my Chouinard catalogs for some "time-line" research on Supergators.
There are several versions of each of the Chouinard catalogs published between 1972 & 1980.
Supergators show up in the price list of what may be the latest version of the famous 1972 catalog. They are not described or pictured. I will guess it is a 1974 version, since it is stamped with the address Northwestern Mountain Sports moved to in summer 1974.
Supergators summer: $37.00
Supergators winter: $40.00
Can't locate my pair from that era, but I believe they did not have zippers. I added a front zip to mine. I don't think the logo (if any) was the Supergator logo shown in this thread.
By what is considered the 1975 Chouinard/Great Pacific Iron Works catalog, with cover shot of Machapuchare: Super Gators get their own page, and have a zipper in the back. The price has also gone down to $29.50.
Here's a 1976 photo of my modified Supergators on our Mt. Deborah trip.
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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I notice the 1975 catalog does not mention colors. I see your pair loaded with gorgeous colors: are they "stock" colors, or did you modify them to achieve those great colors?
Thanks so much for adding such interesting material about the Supergators!
Leading me to my final thought: are the Supergators in the "Best Ever" category of gear, or is there something better that has been developed since the Supergator?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Feb 17, 2012 - 11:54am PT
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Old Gear: I think those were supplied colors. Only the black over-flap that covers the zipper was added. RDB may have more memories, but I recall that some Spokane-based sewer added the zippers to Supergators for what seemed like a bargain price.
In this photo in front of Cliff Hudson's plane: we all have the modified Supergators in bright colors.
Supergators were a hot idea at the time and later. I was leafing through a late 1980's issue of Climbing yesterday and was impressed by all the ads for similar, but improved versions.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Feb 17, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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Newest version of our 1976 Supergators? This one will be in stores by April. We haven't really gone that far in the last 35 years ;) Took them 6 years to get back to velcro over the zipper and I still think the snaps are a good idea :) But still the same basic technology.
Zipper in the back was a big let down. Wild colors which I liked.
More pics of the original, Peter Carmen "Super Gator" and the logo here:
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/04/la-sportivas-batura.html
I'll disagree with Fritz here though. I never saw an improved version, Carman or other wise. Often copied but never improved past what we took to Deborah in '76.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Feb 17, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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Re RDB's thoughts: I'll disagree with Fritz here though. I never saw an improved version, Carman or other wise. Often copied but never improved past what we took to Deborah in '76.
OK, OK. You likely have a point. I've never played with any of the "improved Supergator" designs, and you likely have.
I just fell into the hype that a product ripped-off from the original design and offered up 15-20 years later must be improved.
We old-farts know that is not always true.
Now what the hell did I do with my old Supergators?? I know I would not have thrown them away. I want to see if they have the small labels RDB shows.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Feb 17, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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Just bustin on a Fritz :) Funny now, but I had cursed my Haderers and those over stuffed Gators more than once betwen 1975 and to 1981 when I switched Koflachs. They had weighted a lot. But I'd pay a pretty penny for either now. Gave the boots along with a pair of Trappeurs to Paul Fish for his rental fleet before '85. Stupid on my part, really stupid.
I'd added a layer of pile to my super gators and even on a couple of unplanned bivies high up in the Icefields, mid winter, never had a cold injury or even cold feet in that set up.
Not a pair of singles (with a built in super gator) being made today that you could say the same I suspect. And it is a hell of a LOT warmer these days!
Where is that 1000 yard stare of Puchner's on Sally? That was a cold night to climb through and he was in doubles and Super Gators!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Feb 17, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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OK RDB!
Here's the Puch photo.
It was after a long-night up the north-side of the north-spur peak of Deborah (Sally).
I kept waiting for the (and really not wanting) the 12 -18 inches of sugar snow we were climbing on, to separate from its hard water ice base.
I don't think we were a "pretty-picture" on the climb. RDB led some pretty rocky & runout ice-coated schist near the top.
Puch was well into hypothermia, by the time we started hacking bivy ledges out of the ice.
All was well by the next morning.
However! We all had Supergator warm-feet!
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OR
Trad climber
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Feb 26, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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Forrest Mountaineering Yes! I have one of his Pin Racks and a nylon belay seat. This thread made me go digging for my old Chouinard rucksack that I was sure was lost. Found It. Very cool. From early 80's . Still bomber.
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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Bill Forrest is alive and well, and occasionally still doing things for Cascade Designs, especially in relation to MSR brand snowshoes. He even wrote a nice little how-to book about snowshoeing for them, can't remember the date, but within the past ten years.
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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I recently picked up a mint pair of Supergators in two shades of blue (exterior) and green taffeta interior. They don't have any reference to Carman on them, only a very small "Chouinard" label on the exterior. There is an access point in the green lining to add insulation. There is a front zipper and the flap has snaps....The size is "28" whatever that means. All I know, is that they don't fit me! Too small.
I imagine they fit a men's 8-9 the best. Anyone want to buy these, now that I've finished photographing them for my History of Gear work?
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tom Carter
Social climber
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Apr 23, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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Any truth in this.....
Wasn't Peter Carman married to Dorthy Hirshland ?
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Apr 23, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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That is a good question Tommy lad and to the best of my knowledge there was so much Electric Kool-Aid consumption in Wilson during that era that you will get any number of answers. PC can answer that one! BJ, Foott and Jesson were part of the clan in wild era.
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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Look what's on eBay right now, being sold as a genuine Chouinard pack.
Looks like another version of a "Dragon" pack made in Japan. Anyone know anything about these "Almski" packs? Feel free to bid on it, I sure don't need another pack, but for history-building about this Dragon label, I'd sure like to know whatever you may know.
[photoid=246525]
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oldgear
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
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and this is on the junction of the shoulder straps:
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Vesta
Trad climber
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Aug 13, 2013 - 10:04am PT
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I'm researching an old backpack that my husband has had for years and I saw your post. Did you ever learn anything about the Chouinard CH-110 Almski pack you saw on eBay? This one is dirty but otherwise it's in great condition and has the two detachable side bags. I'm trying to figure out what it is and what to do with it.
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