Discussion Topic |
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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What did W.C. Fields say?????
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Are you saying the price is to low?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I wouldn't mind having an ice axe like that again.
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mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
los angeles, ca
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Gotta pay those xmas bills I guess...
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Not worth it even if you throw in the ice axe!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Steve,
are you thinking of P. T. Barnum?
W. C. Fields said that he doesn't drink water because phish phuck in it.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Actually the price is good.
It's a wall-hanger. Compare to the price of a painting or wall art (check your local Pier-One or Target store) then throw in that it is antique rope. You can't just go down to Home Depot and pick up some.
Obviously those posting above do not have a budget of $250 to decorate a blank section of their wall. However, those of us in the 1% wanna-be circles consider it pocket change.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dang, my buddy gave me a stretch of goldline that he scored off of Higher Cat Spire, most likely used as an anchor by Royal Robbins during an obscure early 60's ascent.
I wonder what that sucker is worth...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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I'd want to know a helluva lot more about the provenance of those ropes before I peeled $250.00 outta my craggin gas money budget.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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For a little bit more he can get you one signed by Ghastly Rabbitfat.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Ron. . .
My bad. . . P.T. Barnum is who I meant!
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Ron,
common man. The name is Ghastly Rubberfat!!.................
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Ghastly Rubberface. Saw him speak, once. Very suave and debonair.
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bookie
climber
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Chessler here,
I find it amusing that when my name apppears on this list it's usually because somebody who is not a collector thinks my price on something is too high. Especially on something that nobody else in the world has for sale! So how does he know the price is too high?
Go into a shopping mall (do they still exist?) and look at prices on better men's or women's clothes. Jewelry. Art. Shoes for God's sake.
Not everybody who climbs or had the good fortune to be able to do first ascents or big walls in the Valley. Thousands of people appreciate climbing in different ways, usually by reading about it. And not by criticizing how others appreciate it.
I liked climbing before I even started climbing in 1962, by reading books. And I always liked old things. My father had an old fashioned drugstore in Brooklyn and I loved the old ornate wooden shelves, the rolling ladder, the old wood phone booths with folding doors. So now I can sell that old stuff for a living. I feel so lucky to be doing this!
If I told you how many antique nailed climbing boots I sold you would be amazed; how many wood handled ice axes, you would think I was lying; how many Chouinard Pitons that are signed by Kor, RR, Beckey etc you would think I was hallucinating. (In the last two years I have given Kor over $5000 for signing stuff, for those who are concerned that I am exploiting him. Ask RR what I do for him, etc.)
In fact, after I opened the box with these manila ropes yesterday, the first thing I did was send an e-mail to my European supplier and tell him to find me more of them!
It's called nostalgia. It's a reaction to ipads and ipods and twitter and super fast editing of films and commercials. It's called real verus phony.
Michael Chessler
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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Micahel...
I find it amusing that when my name apppears on this list it's usually because somebody who is not a collector thinks my price on something is too high. E
careful lad... You have not been in my library, You have not seen inside the countless boxes stored under beds. You do not know if I am a collector or not.
I fully understand your pricing on pins, books, ice axes, etc. as these items will be here 150-200 years from now. But that piece of cord?... come on now!
I have an idea, tell us what your cost was and let the market decide if $250 is a fair collector's markup! Come on, show us the invoice!!!
I know this won't happen...
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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It was not brought, and should not have been employed, for the purpose for which it was used. It was old rope, and, compared with the others, was feeble. It was intended as a reserve, in case we had to leave much rope behind, attached to rocks.
But then pecuniary interest asserted itself, and I beckoned to old Peter: "Come, let us take this remnant and see if we can sell it, as a piquant wall ornament!"
He turned with an ashy face and faltering limbs, and said, with terrible emphasis, "I cannot!"
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Again, the quesion revolves around provenance. If these ropes were truely and uniquely manufactured for climbing, $250.00 is a screaming deal, IMHO. I've spent way more on that for specific books I wanted and works of art I coveted. (I paid $3500 for a painting that a very minor artist created. I just wanted that painting, and was willing to pay for it.)
However, if they are merely old strands of period manila cord that were mass-manufactured merely to be strong, were commenly available at the time of manufacture, and were intended for applications in, say, industry, construction, sailing, pulling stumps, or hoisting stuff around in warehouses, well they would be of little interest to me.
Were specialized, application-specific "Cllimbing Ropes" being manufactured in the 40's?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Careful, don't denigrate my first climbing rope, 1953! Still have tiny scars where the fibers got under the skin while rappeling.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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How much do you want to sell it for, Jogill????
hee hee hee. . .
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yo bookie,
Ron here, remember? Your longtime customer.
Was it five K or just four? Well, never mind.
The point is; Layton is a sweet guy all too easily manipulated and you were supposed to go through his manager, me.
Nothing wrong with you making a profit off it (even though I do the opposite), but how many items did you have him sign?
Had you gone through me he would have gotten his usual $50/sig.
At 5K that is a hundred items.
A little bird tells me there were many more.
And with more out there it dilutes the value.
Like I said, nothing wrong with making a profit. You have overhead and capitalism made us great.
But I gotta tell you man, this business of exploiting (yes, thats the word) an eager to please puppy dog at bargain rates, and then holding him up in defense as some kind of charitable burden you have assumed is truly beneath you.
You are gonna do just fine.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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Nerve>>>touched!
This just in...
Who are you? What is up with that rant about my ropes? Mike Chessler
Sent by: bookie
My name is SImon. My OP does not qualify as a rant (to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way), nor would Dennis Miller qualify my comments as a rant. I simply asked a question.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Uh oh, sounds like bookie hasn't been lurking long,...
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bearbnz
Trad climber
East Side, California
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Chessler is not the most honest or morally founded businessman. I had placed an online order with him, and after the order was processed, he emailed me and informed me that the price had increased. Below is my reply to him, and his jackass response. Fortunately there is competition now.
> You're kidding, right? The price was advertised, the transaction conducted, and now you're changing your mind? You may keep the book, and any others I might have purchased. Chesslerbk@aol.com
>
Cry elsewhere, I dont have the time. Buy the book elsewhere....... oh, I forgot, nbobody else has it.
Michael Chessler
Chessler Books
PO Box 4359
Evergreen Colorado 80437 USA
800 654-8502 303 670-0093 FAX 303 670-9727
America's Leading Mountaineering Bookseller Since 1984
Rare and Out of Print Books Website
New Books, Bargain Books and Videos Website:
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I have an idea, tell us what your cost was and let the market decide if $250 is a fair collector's markup! Come on, show us the invoice!!!
A statement like this shows an an utter lack of knowledge of business and economics of trade.
I suggest you start your own business and get really rich like the rest of us merchants.
Bookie, those who rant against you on this forum are squarely outside of your target market. Those who are your customers are likely to ignore them.
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Conrad
climber
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As business practices are being bandied about, an account of the hammer project might be nice.
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bookie
climber
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Chessler here,
What a load of negativity! I just signed a 1 year contract with Chris MacNamara to advertise on this website, but I am going to cancel it unless he can explain to me how the people writing on the forum and bad mouthing me are not my potential customers.
Did I ever raise a price? Yes, every week. Did I lower a price? Every day. Ask the damn gas station why their prices went up. It doesn't cost more to drill it now than it did ten years ago.
Ask Patagonia why they just raised the price of Beckey's new "Black Book" book from $39.95 to $59.95 to $79.95 in the last 4 months! Yes. What will my customers say when I ask them to pay more?
So go buy it from Amazon for $49, or get a Signed one from me for $79.95. Your choice.
Are the ropes authentic? Yes, read my website (copied below). I sold 200 pairs of Swiss nailed boots and 1000 old wood ice axes and nobody ever asked me if they were authentic. What's wrong with ropes? Do you want photos of the damn things in use? For $250 you don't get a COA.
This is on my website:
"These ropes survived because they were made for the Swiss Army during WWII, who evidently never threw anything away. Indeed, we have seen and sold examples of many items they bought for use in case of invasion by the Germans during WWII, such as Ice Axes, Crampons, climbing boots, goggles, avalanche cord, snowshoes, pitons, etc. And like everything Swiss, it was all made to the highest standards of materials and workmanship. Their WWII Schmidt Rubin bolt action Rifles and Bayonets are also on the market for gun collectors."
As for Ron, did I give Kor $4000 or $5000? Whatever I did, I gave him more than anybody else did, that's for sure.
For 15 years I begged Kor, and promised him $1000 to sign some books. He finally said okay. I didn't know if he had the strength to sign books. I was afraid it would turn out like Warren Harding, who signed 10 books and then the pen rolled out of his hand. But I bought books for 15 years, waiting and hoping that someday he would say yes. Finally, he did.
I showed up in Kingman, and the guy was fantastic. He signed a lot, and we broke for lunch. I said, "Layton, I think this is worth more than $1000. How about $4000." I never did that with anybody before. Actually I think I am the only bookseller in the world who pays authors, but that's another story.
After we were done, he said, "I think it's worth $6000." I said that much is not up to me, let me see how the books sell. If they really sell well, I'll send more. That's how we left it.
They didn't sell all that well, the cheapest items sold, pitons at $50, not his book at $500 and up. So I didn't send more money, although I offered to bring more pitons and have him sign them he was in Colorado, for more money, which he declined.
Then I saw that Stewart Green was getting copies of Crusher Bartlett's book Desert Towers signed by 12 climbers including Kor and selling them for $150, and all the money would go to Kor. I told Green I'd buy them all for $250. Green had 5 left, and he sold them to me for $1250. I presume Fred Knapp at Sharp End donated the books for free, I don't know.
So that's how I got up from $4000 to $5250. All to Kor. Answered?
And thank you for the reasonable folks out there who know the truth.
I think a lot of people are resentful of the commercialization of climbing. That it is somewhat sinful when somebody like me makes money from selling something related to climbing.
I got some news from you. Climbing started as a commercial activity. It was never otherwise! From the first ascent of Mont Blanc, on August 8, 1786, those climbers were PAID to climb the mountain! Nobody climbed without guides, who were all paid. Then people started selling boots, axes, ropes, clothing. All in the 1850s. Then came guidebooks, professional guides, guidebooks, journals and magazines. When Yvon and RR dropped hardware and started selling rags, why did they do that? They like money, that's why.
I don't pay rich and greedy people whose books are ghostwritten like David Breashears and Ed Viesturs, and I don't pay authors to sign new books that are just published, as that's normal in the book world. But if you lost your house in the financial meltdown, yes, I'll fly you from Palm Springs to Colorado and pay you a few thousand in cash to sign some books and pitons. Ask the man. But you can't sign a rope, they are too skinny.
Michael Chessler
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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I've got a first-edition signed copy of "One Man's Mountains" if anyone is interested.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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I have no comment on all the other comments that have been made in this thread about Chessler. But I agree with him about the price of the ropes. A canny bookseller mentor of mine (now dead, alas) said "I price it at what I think I can get for it. If it's not worth it to you, don't buy it. If nobody buys it in a reasonable length of time, then I know I've priced it too high."
As Oscar Wilde said, "a cynic is a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." I have things in my collection for which I paid little but which are of great value to me (if few others). If the price is too high for the ropes, don't buy them, but don't make a big deal about it: find some good, authentic ropes of your own, and price them as you see fit.
For what it's worth, I've only bought stuff from Chessler twice: the first time was not a happy experience, and I still tell people about this experience. The second time, a few years ago, was hassle-free. I'll probably try him again for Beckey's book, because I hate Amazon and the chains, and because I will value the signed item.
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bearbnz
Trad climber
East Side, California
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What a load of negativity! I just signed a 1 year contract with Chris MacNamara to advertise on this website, but I am going to cancel it unless he can explain to me how the people writing on the forum and bad mouthing me are not my potential customers.
If they're smart, they won't be your customers. You earned every bit of that "load of negativity".
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2012 - 02:35am PT
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A statement like this shows an an utter lack of knowledge of business and economics of trade. I suggest you start your own business and get really rich like the rest of us merchants.
I am almost out of here...
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WBraun
climber
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It's called real verus phony.
Hey Chessler, I got absolutely nothing against you.
People buying dumpster garbage for $250 is nuts.
That rope ain't anymore real then any other rope in the world.
A rope is a rope unless you're a dope.
Have at it and make your money if that's what turns you on ......
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bookie
climber
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Werner, why are you calling me a liar? You just make yourself sound stupid. How do you know where I got this rope? From whom? What it looks like? Why do I have 5 identical copies, put away, coiled and tied with string, as only a climbing rope would be, and by the Swiss? All the same length? With the red threads used in old climbing rope? From a person who sells old climbing gear to me? Who buys from Swiss Army warehouses who have been selling off their old gear for a decade?
I know the Germans alwats resent that the Swiss are better than they are at almost everything, except making war, and are especially good at making money, because that's what turns them on.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2012 - 03:38am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's some funny shite right there!
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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GO CHESSLER GO !!!!
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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It'd be pretty funny if that was "actual-size"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Uh,.... bookie,
I went to bed early last night but woke up to this debacle and your email.
Do I have your permission to copy it to here?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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This thread made me spit coffee on my computer. I blame Cmac.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Yeah, Bookie, It's hard to defend you if you keep on feeding the Trolls. No matter how right you are, they are going to keep coming back.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Wishing Michel Chessler and his customers (both the rich and the poor) a happy, healthy, and prosperous new year. 2012 should be a great great great year for all of us.....with lots of climbing, adventures, challenges, surprises, and silliness.....Climbers are a surley bunch, aren't they......best wishes to you and your enterprises.....I appreciate your services and the vast huge awesome amount of cool stuff you offer to the climbing community, and I hope that those who have had "funny" dealings with you in the past can get over it all and move on;....I've seen your "bristly" side too....(and you've seen mine!)...best to be positive, move on, get over ourselves, look at the positive, and appreciate the fine stuff life serves us on a regular basis.... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been looking at some guidebooks I wish to purchase from you in the near future, and I look forward to doing business with you and having "unbristly" dealings with you in the years ahead.......I wish the same for my supertopo friends.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Experienced bookseller quote: "I price it at what I think I can get for it. If it's not worth it to you, don't buy it. If nobody buys it in a reasonable length of time, then I know I've priced it too high."
Don't buy it if you don't want it.
Side notes for folks:
Dingus: speak for yourself on that. Others here will buy from Chesslers.
Ron: that's between you folks. I know you have Layton Kors interest in mind, and that's way cool you are looking out for a bro, but Kor is an adult and can sign anything he wishes for whatever he wants. You might take it up with Kor if you don't think he should be signing things without calling or consulting you first. He is lucky to have you helping as a business partner/helper. Best to you on your future endeavors.
Chessler: stop being so damned bristly and antagonistic. You have a lot of cool sh#t. Just Show your wares, and if people gets sparked up, please just ignore them and let your customers get into it with any detractors.
Ihateplastic: thanks for sharing this, thought your post was awesome and on the money. It's the kind of sh#t we all like to crack wise on, and if Chessler wasn't so damned bristly and butthurt, he'd realize that you posting his latest offering will gain him wide exposure to those who would want that stuff and get him more sales, not less.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If you guys would just hold fire and conserve ammo ,..
Nobody is impressed by the valor of somebody that shoots fish in a barrel.
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WBraun
climber
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LOL this is funny stuff.
Chessler a rope is still a rope in the end.
Putting an artificial value on something doesn't make it any greater than any other rope.
You're a terrible sales man with dealing your potential customers.
A good sales man man would ignore comments that you feel are not to your liking here.
Instead would say; "I have some other nice items you might like."
"Look around you may find something that may interest you."
There was a rug dealer that was on the street when I was in Mali Africa.
He knew the art of making a deal. He was ever polite and persistent in making the deal.
We yanked his chain for days. But he never got angry and just kept trying to sell his goofy rug to us.
We finally bought one. Not because we needed one or even wanted one but because he was such a good salesman.
If you capture your costumer's heart you will be very successful.
By the way we're well aware the history of your ropes and it's value to collectors.
Knee jerk reactions will just cause you unforeseen problems.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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I have to say that this thread is an example of the ugly side of STopo.
Somebody decides to put a price on something and sell it. The life long dirtbaggers (like it or not, you are rare and uncommon to the sport) who can't afford it rants on the web.
A sane reaction, if yo think its too expensive, would be to not buy it.
I think you bozos that buy VW vans were foolish with your money... They're junk.
I drive a Land Rover.... People think that they are junk...
To each their own...... Leave them to be.....
You do not want your life choices interfered with, so lead by example....
Let the guy run his biz his way..... If he's wrong, he will go broke.
Sheesh
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Oh and Ron,
I'm a bit disappointed in you on this.
Your client sold his product for less than you like...
As an AGENT it's your job to manage this.... You should have systems in place to prevent this because you're the AGENT...
Instead your client went around you, got some $$$ without notifying you and ended up dupped (in your eyes).....
Kit should have said "I sign nothing without Rons approval.
I buy and sell things....
I always try to maximize my position...
That's why your an agent... To prevent too good a deal for the buyer...
You let this one get by. No harm, but lesson learned?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Werner,
Good post
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Riley Wyna
Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 2, 2012 - 09:12am PT
"I have to say that this thread is an example of the ugly side of STopo."
Bullshit - it is an example of the power of the internet.
Dreamer
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I have a SWEET collection of sun-rotted tat from major routes around Yosemite Valley and from Tahquitz, where American rock climbing was born.
PRICELESS!!!
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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"I think you bozos that buy VW vans were foolish with your money... They're junk.
I drive a Land Rover.... People think that they are junk..."
Dream on!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i just want to encourage michael to keep the account with chris. it'll be good advertising for so many of his products, and a welcome development on ST itself, where we get lots of junk advertising from businesses that have too much money to spend for the wrong reasons. michael's business was built up over the years, aimed at an important area of interest. he's a good businessman and should not be criticized for standard profitmaking practices.
i was managing editor of couloir magazine for a time, and we got into quite a tangle with one of our advertisers for criticizing one of his products in a standard roundup-style product review. because i had worked for years in newspapers, i was able to teach the publisher how to take a professional position with that. readers will be attracted to product reviews if they are honest. if they turn into promotional pap, readers begin to ignore them. honest criticism might hurt your product today, but it'll also give you the opportunity to retool and redevelop. a critical world isn't necessarily the most comfortable, but it does keep improving.
personally, i think journalism is pretty much dead everywhere it's supposed to exist, but the internet has taken its place, and it actually does a better job. that means forums tend to be pretty rough-and-tumble, but they hold your interest, and they have far greater freedom than what the traditional press has any more. you don't have professional journalists and editors filtering out the chaff here. there's lots of stuff that isn't worth reading. but there's no substitute for first-person participation.
cheers, michael, for posting here. i've always appreciated your catalog, and i'm glad to see you're doing well. there should be many, many businesses like yours. hang in here. we can learn from you.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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The real irony of this ST sh#t-show is that he's asking a fair price for those ropes.
To answer BVB's question, yes, climbing-specific ropes were made since 1864 when the British Alpine Club created the first standard. Manila comes in different grades and only the best were suitable for climbing because they were smooth on the hands and supple for better handling and less drag. The red strand was the quality mark of the era rather like a UIAA hangtag today--nobody would climb on a rope without it.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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This ranks up there with the gym owner in Reno who went online to tangle with the forum monkeys who were calling out his gym.
This thread would have slid into obscurity quickly if Chessler himself hadn't made an appearance. Now the sharks are circling.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well I don't care about the price on the ropes, but I'm a little tired of waiting for a response, and while I would like to honor LK's request to leave it alone I am too outraged by some of the claims made by email.
MC wrote me questioning my motives, claiming he was Layton's biggest benefactor, and asserting that nobody in climbing gets $50 for a signature like Pete Rose.
Well Layton may not have the fan base of Pete Rose, but what we lack in size we more than make up for in devotion.
Yes, that's what he gets (and sometimes more). He is a legend among legends.
Trouble is he is also the nicest guy in the world and not well schooled in financial planning.
Because of that several people have taken advantage.
As for MC questioning how long I've been his manager and suggesting it is another ST inside joke; I assumed the role in preparing the Mackay show a few years ago, although it is nominal as there is no contract and more importantly, no percentage.
And other climbers caught a bit short, like flanders, tar, Bird,philo, jello, and Tyrus have gotten my Benjamins because, although fortunate now, I know what it is like to be short.
I'm sure if down the road I need help it will be there.
Because the real inside joke on SuperTopo is that it is no joke. Amidst a sea of trolls and hate there exists a small community of real people who don't hide behind avatars, but who show genuine concern for each other, and act out of more than self-interest.
For me it is an obligation, a tradition of my people. But it is a happy fact that many others here enjoy the same sense of fulfillment and community.
If MC would take a little time to get to know us he might get into the groove.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Ron, you were a minor player in the Macky show. If Layton is getting $50/signature, it's purely for charity not actual value. Nothing wrong with that but call it like it is.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Michael, ignore the silliness. The usual armchair critics, hiding behind anonymity. As you adopted the pen name "bookie" - a double entendre if ever I saw one - you seem to know what these forums are about. And it speaks volumes that you know the red thread tradition for manila ropes.
I suspect a fair number of people here envy you. After all, you get to collect and admire all sorts of neat books and artefacts, meet a wide variety of climbers, and make a living doing it. Without being beholden to others. Those here with minor collections of memorabilia perhaps wonder what it's all worth, and whether they could make a living buying and selling such things. It's probably pretty hard to do so, and all too easy for outsiders to criticize middle men/agents.
We've never had business dealings, although we met at the VIMFF in 2003. I occasionally trawl through your site, but haven't bought anything so far.
As it arose, I'll generally comment on fundraising for various good causes, as we often see here. First, it's often a bandage for the governmental, social and economic inadequacies, particularly in the area of health care. A busted system, and (sometimes) poor individual choices. That said, we are something of a community, and helping others is generally a good thing. My preference is to donate directly to the person(s) needing help, once the need is legitimated. I don't need to bid on someone else's junk/treasures, and I don't need autographed knick knacks. Sweeteners for some, not for me. And I don't need it to be in context of some special event, or be publicly acknowledged - all I want, and too often don't get, is a polite thank you from the recipient, if only so that I know the donation was received.
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WBraun
climber
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Sounds like Anders is the envious one .....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sorry, Werner, not at all envious. I'm sure that Michael has some neat stuff, that it would be nice to read or admire. And an interesting job. But I already have more than enough stuff - some of which has personal meaning to me but perhaps no one else. Whether it has any monetary value isn't of interest to me.
Although possibly Michael would be interested in adding some Wernermabilia to his line.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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I always had good dealings with Chessler, and I'd consider him one of the key players in the record of climbing history and memorabilia (along with the likes of Marty Karabin and Stephane Pennequin).
He's on the profit motive, of course, but how could he do what he does if not? It's also likely that a lot of what he pays for might never offer any financial benefit (i.e. no buyers).
He came by my house prior to our move from Australia and handed me a couple K bills for a bunch of books and stuff--I'm sure eventually he'll make a sizeable profit on it, but it will take a while. The main benefit in my mind is that the stuff that does sell will be going to individuals who see value in it, which is better than the dumpster or some storage locker where it would have headed otherwise.
Chessler is really just in the re-distribution of stuff of value; things that would likely otherwise be lost or forgotten. Some people are willing to pay for it, some not.
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Chessler is ok, I've been dealing with him for over 10 years. I haven't met him but I have spent some time chatting on the phone with him. He has pretty much everything, the quality is good and the sales can be great. If I needed to cash in the 400 or so books on my shelves, I would probably contact him first.
Nothing has established value until somebody buys it. I suspect people will pay $200 for an old rope and be very happy doing so - I can't see why this should be an issue with anybody.
As far as getting old gear and books signed, I hear people griping about him all the time but it never seems to be the people who did the signing.
From his posts, I suspect he is a newbie when it comes to internet forums and doesn't know that you have to have a pretty tough hide to survive here. I remember when I first posted on forums getting all worked up about some prick but eventually figuring out that you just need to ignore the chaff or just go away. As they say, everybody is an a-hole on the internet.
Edit - on rereading this, the last paragraph might sound like I am dissing Ron, nothing could be farther from the truth. The guy I am calling names was a troll who used to post on a bicycling forum about killing cyclists with his car and also posting gloats whenever the papers reported a cyclist killed on the road.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Well, FWIW, I have made a number of purchases rom Chessler over the years and they all went smoothly. Last purchase was a number of old Ascent magazines ('70, '73) and some very old issues of Mountain (like, #7, #8, #15). Prices were doable and the condition of the mags was as described. He did not seem like an effusively warm individual over the phone -- kind of cranky really -- but tremendously knowledgable. I do recall calling once to inquire about a magazine I needed a replacement for (Mountain #31, with Bridwell's Brave New World article) and he mumbled something about what a hassle it was to deal with magazines, but hey, he had it, I wanted it, and although pricey ($15.00? OMG!! I can buy, like, two drinks at the Monte Vista for that!!) it was well within my comfort zone. I would have paid $25.00.
When dealing in art, antiques, real estate, vintage clothing, obscure 1960's Italian bicycle parts, or rare books of ANY kind (anybody priced a copy of the Sierra Club Exhibit Format series books "Slickrock" or "Everest: The West Ridge" lately? Starlight Books in Flagstaff has a first edition copy of Hemingway's "The Old Man and The Sea". They want $6,000.00, but they'd probably accept a $5,500.00 offer)) prices get really dodgy and subjective. As has been mentioned upthread, it's worth what someone else is willing to pay for it; if nobody wants it, well, put it in the recycle bin.
He offers a product, a service. Is he the only game in town? No. Is he generally convenient? Yes. If you want to buy a particular book or periodical, shop around.
Now, if you want signed copies of books, the whole thing gets wierder. For example, Chessler has several 1st edition copies of Downward Bound. One, unsigned, is $50.00. Fair enough. Another was, like $250.00. WTF. So I check that one out and it's been signed by 6 or 7 people. I was like, hell, I know half these guys and I've seen the others at OR a gazillion times. But will I bother carting some of my books around now, and get people to sign them for me. No. Well, maybe yes. It just never occured to me to have strangers sign my books in order to increase their market value. But, I do have books that friends have signed fo me, usually at their insistance, and most of these inscriptions are not fit to print, particularly Sherman's. Another time I had a freind staying at the crib in Flagstaff. While I was not home he went through my entire book and magazine collection and signed all his stuff. Will I ever part with that stuff? Not now, too cherished. But, as a general rule, signed books are worth more. But do I want to pay an extra $200.00 for signatures? No. On the other hand, I watch auction shows on TV and get blown away for what, say, a signed baseball goes for. I guess some people get their hair blown back by that. OK.
In any event, as to the ropes, now that the history and provenance has been clarified, $250.00 sems ordinary and I'm sure they will sell to somebody.
What I really don't get is what in tarnation Chessler thought he was doing wading into our little cesspool here. Guaranteed ridicule. Is he insane?!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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You want insane, you should read his PMs.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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^^^^
Piton Ron, post up! Hahaha this thread is the greatest!!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oh God Yes Ron. You gotta share. Just a taste. Everybody knows there's no such thing as a "personal" PM, especially if they are unsolicited.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Thirded. Is that a word?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Ron, spare us. Private messages should be kept that way.
Also, is there any climbing-related manufacturer or retailer that measures up to your personal standards? Whatever its general reputation?
It's easy to criticize him, but Chessler has been in business for decades. That doesn't mean that all customers are satisfied all the time - that only happens in the magical world of SuperTopo. But it suggests that, whatever the anecdotes and tittle tattle, he must be doing something right.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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I picture a mangled keyboard laying in a corner in a jumble of first editions...
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Hmmmmm product is no longer available. Did it sell?!!
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Item #HW15.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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You are kidding? He pulled it because of this little tempest in a teapot?
Hell, I would've thought the price'd go up.
I'm getting a lot of emails telling me to post the PM. It seems that bookie is perceived as a one percenter.
I should state again, I don't care about the cost of the rope. It is a free market.
It is the other business that grates me. I've raised thousands for Layton and though he has signed some items for me I could never sell them.
(BTW my favorite piece isn't signed it is the home-made baling wire descending ring!)
Sure bookie is entitled to make a profit. He doesn't do it for his health, and if his PM is a hint then the internet has not been good for business (no surprise there).
But some people are just special and it is bad juju to exploit their naivete.
Whether or not that is the case comes down to the true "market value" of his signature. Chessler paid under $10.
I have seen plenty who pay $50, and a few substantially more.
If he is smart he won't protest those values too loudly since he is already holding the goods.
But,.......................... (wait for it),............................ I could be wrong. lol
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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would this be a good time for me to advertise some old books autgraphed by fattrad to support repuglicans?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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I've still got that signed first-edition copy of Patey's "One Man's Mountains" if anyone wants it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Didn't One Man's Mountains come out posthumously?
Quite a trick getting it signed,....
EDIT must have been a ghost writer
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Didn't One Man's Mountains come out posthumously?
Quite a trick getting it signed,....
Heh. Can't believe that slid by the first time.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Thats not how you say camel toe in latin.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mr Chessler, thank you for your service to the climbing community.
S.T forum initiates new posters with harassment, abuse, and humiliation…a sure testament of love and appreciation.
Actually, your initiation was much milder than Daria or Andree Hussar’s.
Forum hazing occurs to facilitate strong loyalty to the group. Believe me, sir, this hostility and inhumanity is done to facilitate community and group cohesiveness…and it leads to stronger group commitment and the re-enforcement of in-group biases…and limit outside relationships that you may have formed with other human beings . . .
Forum hazing is cut and abrasion free…although some complain of bruising of the soul. (One member, here, complained of nearly choking to death on her own vomit)
Thank you for your patience and Welcome to S.T. !
Incidently, can you find me an autographed copy of Thick Skin, Flame Proof Suiting and Internet Armor by Lois E. Brenneman?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nice one, Jennie - spot on sociology.
While Michael is at it, I was hoping for a copy of:
Thick Skin, Flame Proof Suiting and Internet Armor, Volume 2: Boneheadedness by Lois E. Brenneman The subtitle is "Real Life Experiences From the Front Line of the Internet Forum Wars".
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Incidently, can you find me an autographed copy of Thick Skin, Flame Proof Suiting and Internet Armor by Lois E. Brenneman?
BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!1111!
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Not too long ago there was a thread concerning sales of a controversial shirt that irked many. These quotes come from that thread.
Not that I need to--this is a business, not a co-operative...
Hell, makes the shirts super collectable!
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bookie
climber
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Last laugh.
We sold two of our five Manila Ropes at $250 each this week.
We sold them to some old guys who say they only do "trad" climbing, and don't need that new-fangled nylon stuff.
Mike Chessler
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Mike I hope you are joking--I doubt 50 year old ropes would be suitable for anything but the movies.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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I call bullsh#t. Nobody is going climbing on one of your ropes.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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since virtually all the regular posters to this site are notorious gear whores, with enough cordura, ripstop and aluminum on hand to outfit a small 3rd world army, it's always intriguing to see what sort of objects really set off the repressed guilt about consumerism and hoarding.
it seems that anything collectible and anything made by patagonia are reliable triggers.
idk michaael chessler, but have bought a few things from him without any problems and appreciate having a major book dealer / antiquarian specializing in climbing lit actually located in the us. i think it'd be great if he posted here regularly. from the complaints i'm reading on this thread, he sounds like he'd fit right in as one of the regulars.
when i was in the peak, and met the jarvises, they told me a great chessler story. howard told me that chessler, at their home for dinner, had at one point bitten the cat. howard thought it was hilarious.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I guess bookie doesn't realize that this is a climbing site. He must've thought it was a dating site because he brags about making money and uses a thirty year old photo of himself.
Bookie,
nobody wants to date you except Lois.
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mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
los angeles, ca
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A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late.
-T. Tusser
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JMC
climber
the swamp
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Conrad,
Sounds like you feel screwed on the A5/D5 hammer project. What's the story?
Bought old mags and a variety of books from Chessler 4 or 5 times over the past 15 years, all was fine. A few issues got lost in the book rate postal abyss once, and they were replaced/refunded with no hassle. Chessler comes of like a bristly d!ck in electronica, but so do a lot of you.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I don't collect old climbing gear so don't really care about these ropes. But if I did, they seem reasonably priced to me.
What's up with the hammers? I think if you think something nefarious went down you should be clear, rather than cast those involved in a negative light.
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WBraun
climber
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First we yank Chessler's chain and falls for it.
Then he recovers and yanks our chain and you all fall for it.
Hahahah LOL
You all have been own .......
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I've always had good service with chessler books. But that nasty, userous, post of 9:15 last night has convinced me to look elsewhere first from now on.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah Jaybro,
I gotta agree with you.
He sent me a couple of PMs. Bristly dick is right!
Normally I wouldn't post without permission, but the snob thing really shows;
Ron, I have been lucky enough to have dealt directly with Hillary, Messner, Harrer, Herzog, Bonington, RR, Frost, Lynn, Conrad, Hornbein, Whittaker, Houston, Bates, Washburn, Bridwell, and 50-100 more. What was it you think you could have done for me? Or Layton?
Since you have not bought a book from me in over a decade I assume you are not buying books, which is usually due to a change in lifestyle, ie, retired and no money. Having no money or no interest generally means no knowledge of value, certainly not what is happening (read collapse) in the book market since the invention of the internet which has destroyed almost every independent bookseller who was active 15 years ago.
So what DO you know about books and book signing? That Kor was a great climber. Jeeez, thanks for the tip. One thing I do know about "agents", especially self appointed non-remunerated agents. They always f*#k things up. Always. Prove me wrong. Do something that makes somebody some money. Cheers, Michael
Sent by: bookie
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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As usual, Stinkeye sums it up pretty well. Pretty astute character overall, that Stinkeye.
Riley say:
being a sort of librarian of world climbing
You know that's kind of an insult to the AAC library and actual librarians.
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YoungGun
climber
North
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bookie via Piton Ron:
Since you have not bought a book from me in over a decade I assume you are not buying books
All hail the great Chessler, the only source for books and knowledge in the universe. Cocky tw#t isn't he?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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One thing I do know about "agents", especially self appointed non-remunerated agents. They always f*#k things up. Always. Prove me wrong.
If you're f*#king things up from Chessler's perspective . . . keep up the good work!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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There once was a seller named Bookie
Whose products appealed to the rookie
Some said his Manila
Was knot a big thrilla
Now Bookie is off selling some nookie
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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^^^ That makes this thread worthwhile, eh? HoHoHo!
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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I am an actual librarian, and libraries are bookstores where you don't sell the merchandise.
A small bookseller who has been in business as long as Chessler has garners nothing but praise from all the librarians I know.
A business like his is as much a labor of love as it is business. I salute Michael Chessler for what he has done and is doing.
Piton Ron seems like he wants everyone to think that Layton Kor is his property and his best and only friend. Sounds like his ego runs wild. Also sounds like Chessler could probably make a lot more money for Kor with his nationwide marketing. I don't think Ron has that going for him.
For all the haters, well, good luck at Amazon.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Of course nick d has no agenda with me (check her posts on the Rainier thread), but as I said, Layton is a sweet guy who is eager to please, and it pains me to see others take advantage of his naivete.
As such I have offered him some useful advice, but perhaps more importantly I've made sure that when he's caught short on medical expense the gap is filled.
And then there is the quality of life thing, enabling him to get out and see new rocks.
And the sushifests, I didn't see nick d there.
He's not property, he's a friend, and I don't try to profit from him.
How many hundreds of items did Chessler get him to sign and how much will he boost their price?
I wouldn't begrudge bookie a modest profit but the numbers would say whether that was the case or not.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Years ago I bought a book from chessler and found that my credit card had been overcharged for the transaction. I tried calling and sending emails asking politely to have the overcharge corrected and got no response after 3 or 4 attempts over the course of a week and became more concerned. After that, I took a nastier tone and finally got a response. Instead of a simple apology and acknowledgement of the mistake, he accused me of character assassination and started spouting about how he's sold thousands of books with no complaints. It was quite an pompous overreaction from someone who made the mistake.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Wow, this thread is a bag of diks.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 6, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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How many Diks can you get into a bag?
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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I have probably had more experience with Michael Chessler than anyone here, as he sold my books and things starting way back in the late '60s with my guide High Over Boulder. Early on, I realized Michael is a different sort of species of human. I could either take issue with his somewhat unpredictable personality or not. For the most part I chose the latter, and we have had countless mutually beneficial exchanges. I have felt we were friends, for several decades. As Kerwin notes, Michael is an antiquarian of a scholarly sort, in his area of speciality. He can be immensely helpful. And, as many have noted here, his service to climbers is unique and important. Kerwin, that cat story might have originated from Michael's playful relationship with his cats. I have a photo of Michael where he holds a cat in his (Michael's) mouth, and the cat dangles there contentedly, as though Michael were his mother.... Few people can spin a yarn like Michael. He stays surprisingly well up on events in the climbing world. Yet he is like a bear, a big fuzzy, pet of a bear. He has moods. On a given day he will be a wonderful playmate. On another he might simply chew your head off. Thus for me, it never has been a relationship that inspires comfort or, exactly, trust. I mean, one has to be a bit vigilant, on the alert for one of those moods. I know his health hasn't been great, and I know from my own experience with health problems that such a situation can make a person irritable and contentious. Michael has shown real generosity to me at times. Other occasions, inexplicably, he has taken a harsh, businesslike approach and shown me no favor or leeway, as though we had never been friends. He wouldn't hesitate to undercut your prices or do other things that seem in stark contrast to his otherwise professional, honest, and likeable self. I have never known how to assess such behavior and suspect he would have a good explanation for anything he does of a questionable nature. I have watched, however, that switch back and forth through the decades between a mean bear and a fun one, with no apparent explanation. He can be very warm. He can be very cold. Michael has tended to remind me of the favors he has done, and in turn I have held onto the somewhat playful running question as to whom has benefitted more, Michael or I. The answer to that question is not in fact something for which either Michael or I wait. I mean, yes he gives me money for things I sell him. Then, though, he usually makes a profit... somehow. He is amazingly creative at finding people who cater to his propositions. People who fault him for that have no real basis for doing so. That's his business. He does it well. As for the rough edges of his personality, well, one has to decide if it's worth it to continue the involvement. In the past, I have simply tried to be positive, and things have, for the most part, worked. My daughters enjoy Michael. He has welcomed them with gifts, shown them how to feed the foxes outside, and given them the demonstration of holding his cat in his mouth.... He doesn't have to do business with Maren and Anna. Michael has always been frank and straightforward. He knows what he wants, what he can use, and it's my guess every day he runs into someone who isn't easy to deal with. So Michael, in reaction to that, it's my guess, becomes less easy to deal with. There are no such excuses, though, for other occasions when he takes a big, snarling bite out of your back. One must try not to turn his or her back toward the big bear. It's hard for me not to like Michael Chessler, as is it hard not to feel provoked at times. I recall one tender moment in Boulder when he drove down to see my film, "the Disciples of Gill." At the end of the show, he approached me and said he had never before had tears in his eyes for a climbing film. I was touched by that comment, which I saw as a high form of praise, that the film could move someone. That's the better, deeper side of Michael. The antithetical experience would lie in wait later around some other day's curious corner....
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I've dealt with Michael for over 25 years as both a buyer and a seller and have been very satisfied with the experience. If, for whatever reason, you don't care to do business with Michael that's your choice. But, I will continue to do business with him.
Something that hasn't been very well documented in this thread is that besides Michael paying climbers for their signatures(who else is doing that?), he also donates money to climbing-related charities for certain items which he sells.
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bookie
climber
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I can't believe that this thread is still going! If I had know these last thirty years that my eccentric business practices would have been so entertaining to the chattering class, I would have been more of an ass-hole all along! It might even get me into heaven as having been such a delight to humanity.
For those who took seriously my remark about my customers actually using the manila ropes, I was putting you on. That I caused some discomfort to my critics, I am filled with glee that I was successful! As Pat Ament kindly pointed out, I do know which part of a rope is the top and which is the bottom. Or the front and back, I forgot what he told me.
Here is an update for those who are appalled that I am selling old ropes I "bought at the flea market" as old climbing ropes. I have now sold three of the five I had. For those who ever think about pricing, you will recognize that when something does not sell it may indicate the price is too high. When you sell 60% of your non-renewable inventory in 6 days, it indicates your price is too low, so I have adjusted the rope price to market conditions. If you grab one now I will even throw in some old soft iron pins and steel biners so you will be fully kitted out to go climbing!
I love Olevsky! After 15 years of my imploring Kor to sign some books for me, and even having Pat Ament put in a good word for me as well, he eventually granted me 4 hours of his time, for which I paid him $4000, and $1250 a few months later for 5 more signatures. Ron, how much have you given Kor, or raised for him? You are sounding more foolish with every post, you should relax, get off ST and watch you tube or something. I am arrogant and full of pride for what I do, but at least I DO something! You are now in my "past customer" list, and now, no matter what you say, I will never sell you a manila rope.
Or bite your cat.
Michael Chessler
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WBraun
climber
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Hahahaha LOL
You all have been owned by this man .....
LOL LOL LOL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Best chew on all the facts before you spit out a half-baked condemnation of Ron.............Ron has been a friend to many in their times of need.......with no gain in it for Ron except that's what friends do for each other..........(we miss you Kyle Copeland.....)....business is business......and friends is friends;.....it's apples and oranges....
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bookie
climber
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With all respect, Olevsky is the one stating "facts" about what Layton did for me and how much money I made off it, facts he has no acccess to or right to have access to.
How the hell does he know or care what I did, or made? Who asks somebody else how much he makes? Who says somebody else makes too much money? I would never presume to ask you, Olevsky or Chouinard or even Bill Gates how much he personally makes on each computer I buy. It's rude to ask that. He was just hurt that he was left out of something Layton did, so he cannot get credit for what I did for Kor.
It is obvious to everybody that in paying Layton $5250 to sign some stuff for 4 hours I was hardly "using" him. Who the hell pays that much to somebody who is not famous? Being known to rock climbers is not famous. If Olevsky thinks I should have given Kor more money, he should sell some of his assault rifles and give the money to Kor himself.
I once asked Clint Eastwood to sign some copies of "The Eiger Sanction." I really did. In fact, I had been buying hardcovers for years in hopes I would meet him someday. He wanted $400 each. Clearly, no deal was done.
I think some of you people are funnin' by saying a bookseller is "making too much" on anything. Clearly you haven't been near a bookstore in ten years. Either because you don't buy books, or because all the bookstores have gone out of business! I closed my bookshop and fired all my employees in September 2011. Familiar date? Hey, I just consider myself lucky that I still have a job!
And I sell Manila Ropes because Amazon does not! Get the picture now kiddies?
Michael Chessler
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Hey Todd, I'm starting to run out of dinky sport routes at my level... I might ask nicely for you to scribble some stuff on my guidebooks here soon. Just did a few of your routes (and gaines) stuff, been having an absolute blast. Black jack, Freshly Squeezed and Sexy Grandma, to name a few. And some friends visited Siberia and had some nice things to say, and Jake says that there is a bunch of cool stuff out there that ain't even in the newest of the new books.
Anyway, thread drift. Well, guidebook-related.
If I ever get enough cash I want to get a 1962 AAJ from Chessler, but for now I have to save up cash for gas money to go climbing :) I guess I can save that for when I crack my legs climbing and just have my books to look at, which will be fun, because I haven't read most of em....
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WBraun
climber
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Bookie -- "I closed my bookshop and fired all my employees in September 2011."
Huh?
You closed your business and fired all your employees?
What did they all suddenly do wrong?
How's that work?
Normally you let them go.
Oh I get it. You fired them so you don't have to pay compensation?
Nice guy?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Ahhh sh#t, we is all dick heads sometimes....
Word
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2012 - 01:38am PT
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Chessler Books=Bain Capital?
Bookie=Romney?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Chessler- just read your rant to Ron.
Pretty weak considering what he has done for his friends. You should be ashamed.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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'62 AAJ: Chouinard's article? Or was that '63? The one where he predicts Yosemite techniques will be transported to the great ranges of the world.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Todd-
Very well said.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Oh, right. The article was "Modern Yosemite Climbing" and it was '63. That's the one I want.
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bookie
climber
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Leroy Cross, the great old bookseller from Brunswick Maine, was a mentor to me, and told me that the 1962 and 1963 AAJs were classic and valuable for the following reasons:
The 1962 AAJ frostbite article by Washburn that had some full color and totally gross photos of frostbitten hands and feet, and even worse, the damage done to somebody's frozen feet when they were held close to a truck exhaust to thaw them out. They looked like overcooked sausages with peeling casings. I still show it to people.
The article got reprinted as a pamphlet to be sold in climbing shops, but they left the great color photos out of the pamphlet! So to him, and me, that article always stuck in my mind.
The 1963 AAJ started with 4 lead articles about Yosemite, all by Chouinard and Robbins. There had ever been a major article in the AAJ about Yosemite before that, and now there were four. Never before or since has there been 4 lead articles about any one place in that journal, which then as now was the journal of record. Then the next year Roper's guide came out, and as they say, life began.
Roper told me he was in the Army in Louisiana or some other hellhole in 1964, and was not popular in his platoon. But when Brower at the Sierra Club sent him a copy of the Red Guide, and his buddies saw that he had written a book, he suddenly had the respect of everybody.
The 1960s were transformational in so many big ways, race relations, birth control and sex, Vietnam and the anti-war movement, the life and death of JFK, rock n roll, so many things we all think about. But it also changed many things like the new popularity of climbing and backpacking that affected millions of people, but were less controversial and newsworthy. The 1960s changed everything, except Detroit cars.
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bookie
climber
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Werner said "You closed your business and fired all your employees? What did they all suddenly do wrong? How's that work? Normally you let them go. Oh I get it. You fired them so you don't have to pay compensation? Nice guy?"
Spoken like an employee, Werner. Here is what really happened.
My employees were really nice people, I gave them several months of notice, and they easily found jobs right away, and I am still friends with one of them.
In 1994 I sold 20% of the mountaineering books in America, certainly on many major books where I could find the numbers. I sold 1500 of the 7500 Messner All 14 8000 1st editions (1988). I sold about 5000 Touching the Void 1st editons (also 1988), of 30,000 printed. I did $50,000 (wholesale)in one year with Chockstone books, mostly books like Largo's How to Rock Climb that you can now buy in supermarkets. Every time George Meyers had to pay royalties to Largo and Randy Vogel, he would drive over to my bookshop and make me pay up, so he could pay them.
But by 2001 my sales had shrunk to 1/3 of what they were in 1994 due to the internet competition. And my expenses had risen, as I had to pay people current wages, rent had gone up, and do you remember my great catalogs? I did 120 of them and the cheapest ones cost me $2000, the big ones cost $20,000 with postage. And I did 6 to 10 a year. You have to spend millions to make millions, and I did.
My customers were great, they told me to get a good website. In 2002 we put up the site we have now, and I think all the programming, yearly fees, etc for 10 years has cost me less than one catalog in one year used to cost. I am doing the same amount of business that I did in 2001, but with one part time employee. I do everything I was paying two people full time employees to do. And I have been doing it for ten years. For about 5 years I even did it all alone. So you can see why I get pissed off when idiot tells me I am making too much money. On signed books that I still have in stock because I priced them too high!
I was losing $100,000 a year by 2001, and I had to re-finance my house, and sometimes couldn't make my mortgage payments. Sound familiar? I had to close the store fast or get a real job. It wasn't just me. It happened and is still happening to every bookstore in America, and every travel agent, and many other jobs. Even Best Buy is losing money due to internet competition. Borders books is gone, Barnes and Noble is going. Amazon is destroying many retail businesses in America, and due to Federal relaxation of controls on prices in the 1970s, discounting is seen as a boon to consumers. But it is killing businesses and higher paying jobs than Amazon creates. Certainly better jobs.
Yeah, books are cheap now, but how can you browse? And do you really want to stare at a screen every time you want to buy something?
And have you checked Amazon prices on out of print books where their private sellers have the only copies? Here is a good one, a 5 year old book from Climbing Magazine for $72, that should be five bucks. http://www.amazon.com/Glacier-Mountaineering-Illustrated-Crevasse-Revised/dp/1893682129/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326010650&sr=1-2
There is a saying that people do their best thinking under stress. So in September 2001, while I hired a young climber to move my 20,000 books and bookshelves into my barn, I took a gamble. I bought several thousand dollars of new and used books, and ten thousand dollars worth of old ice axes, and spent $14,000 on air freight r/t to send them to New Zealand. Then I flew there for a week, and Ed Hillary signed all that stuff for me. He actually did that for anybody who would contribute to his foundation, that's how he raised money for his charitable work. I gave him a lot of money. Really a lot.
And then I sold the stuff. And then I did it again every year for seven years, and I also flew to Europe to see Harrer, Herzog, Heckmair, Messner etc. I was crossing the oceans so much I started to upgrade to business class, it was so debilitating. Exhilarating, but exhausting. I never in my life thought I would even want to fly in the front of the plane.
But it gave me something to sell that was called a mountaineering book, and it was something that Amazon could not undersell me on. The game had changed on me, so I had to change the game back. Now I sell signed books, and usually for the cover price. I sold 300 copies of Steve House's book at the cover price, and after Fred signs them I will try to sell 150 copies of his new $80 book, that Amazon sells for less than Patagonia will sell it to me for.
So why did I give Kor more than I had ever given anybody to sign books except Ed Hillary? Because I had a lot of books, and pitons, and I didn't think he could do it all. People told me he was sick. So I didn't expect much. But he was well enough for signing books. I was so surprised that I quadrupled my offer.
Here's a good story. Talk about being sick and signing books. I actually lifted Brad Washburn out of his death bed, to sit up in his wheelchair, so he could sign books. Although his last year saw his body and mind failing, I discovered something about authors. They always recognize their books, and incredibly for him, his handwriting stood up until the end. I would spend 3-4 days at a time in Boston, going in to see Brad only one hour at a time.
Barbara, his wife told me that it actually cheered him up, to be with somebody who knew who he was and appreciated him, and gave him something worthwhile to do. That was obvious. My only regret was that I didn't take him out to Friendly's for one last milk shake. But telling this story did remind me of something I had forgotten.
It gave me incredible pleasure to give Barbara more money than I gave anybody except Ed Hillary, even more than Kor. A shitload more. And as my checking account was kind if shaky at the time, I paid her in cash. A thick wad of hundreds. A Mafia roll. Olevsky, you here? A gun show roll! We showed it to Brad, but I don't think he cared. He wanted one last strawberry milkshake.
Michael Chessler
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WBraun
climber
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Well Chessler ....
This thread just might be a blessing in disguise for you?
It's a small reflection of your true self and maybe you learned something about yourself form the reactions here?
Seems to be a huge obsession with money?
But that's business = all about money .... the bottom line?
No wonder I'm such a terrible business man .....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Is there a photo of the cat-bite trick?
In public domain?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Google "Chesslier Cat."
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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I've never dealt with Chessler, and only know the stories, similar as this thread), which pop up from time to time. I do feel that business is business, but there is more to doing good business than maximizing profit on every transaction. I was able to maximize quite well, on a pair of vintage Celluloid buttons which I bought for $7. I ran 11 inches of commercial grade elastic cording through the shanks, tied an overhand knot, and then tied another in the center, to create this hair accessory:
Then I shot images, edited and, similar to Chessler, posted to my eBoutique, Talisman Studios, which you may find here: http://www.TalismanShops.com
A week later, the item sold, for the listed price of $22, plus shipping. Of course, the gross of $15 was whittled down a bit, but it was still a tidy profit.
I have a different style than Chessler - I would NEVER argue with a client, or potential one, with such aggressive pompousity, as I see going on here. Wen someone buys from me, they get a personal emailed confirmation of the order, and then another on shipping, which includes the tracking number. Usually the entire process is handle within 24 hours, though in cases like now, where I will be in JTNP for the next several days, confirmation may be delayed if a purchase is made today. But I make sure to be in touch within 48 hours, or "hang a sign on the shop window" stating why I will be delayed, and when to expect my return. They never have to wonder what the status is on the items they purchased.
And as of yet, I have 100% satisfied customers. Of course I am miniscule, compared to Chessler, but I gotta say dude - imagine how many MORE of your clients would BE happy and satisfied if you just acted a bit more differently! Negative experiences taint the goods. Clients who had negative interactions during the transaction can never fully enjoy the items they purchased, as they will always have that burr under the saddle memory of the bad experience. With Online marketing communication and follow through is KEY!
At any rate - what started me on this post was the following:
Who the hell pays that much to somebody who is not famous? Being known to rock climbers is not famous.
In the world of your customers, he surely is famous! And it is in extremely poor style to diminish the value of the signature write as a person, as you do in this case.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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bookie seems to be his own worst enemy.
He challenges me to state if I have raised anything and when I do he changes the subject.
It is really difficult to assess whether bookie took advantage without knowing how many signatures he extracted and how much he will mark up items accordingly, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for him to be forthright.
If he has deigned to make his entrance to the taco for the purpose of alienating potential customers then he is doing a bang up job.
Just look how endearing his last email to me was (at least I can only hope it is the last):
There are millions of people dying like Layton is. What makes him special, so special that I should give him anything, or Hillary, or RR, or the others I have paid to sign books? Remember, I offered Layton money before he was sick, he took it only because he needs money now. That was his decision.
Profit is the only way I can generate money to spend it. You can be altruistic if you choose and if are rich, but since you are acting so hostile I doubt if caring for others is in you.
It is arrogant and pretentious to tell somebody else to whom they should contribute money, or to what cause. And even more arrogant in America to say there is something wrong with making a profit, in the same breath where you acknowledge that I did give the man $5250. I was not donating money to him, you idiot! I was paying him a stipend for work done! Not because he needs it, but because my customers will buy it.
How dare you tell me to go on doing what I do, but forgo profit? You sound like an imbecile! Would you ever say that to Yvon, to RR, to the guy who fixes your plumbing?
Have you ever seen a rich bookseller? Or rich anybody with book in his job description except for Stephen King? I mean it when I said you are not "hurting" me, if that is your goal. You are painting yourself as a little man who was hurt because you were left out of my deal with Layton, so you could not claim credit for it.
And what is this bullshit that you could have wheedled more money out of me? How the hell do you know, or care, what I make, spend, earn or give away? I don't even ask my friends how much they make. NOBODY DOES! It's just f*#king rude and you know it, so that was your intent, to be rude. I have gotten personal e-mails from people who see that you are over the edge. Better to shut up now, for your own good.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Although it's been maybe over 30 years since I've tied in with Bill, he's a good dude, and so I have to link it again in case anyone is searching for a special book.
http://jpmountainbooks.com/tempindex.html
Chessler. Have you ever heard the phrase "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"? It applies to the internet as well. I will say as a corollary, that although it's true that you'd do much better with rotten meat than honey or vinegar, I don't think the rotten meat would work well on the internet. Although you can keep trying. So, stick with the honey. Still wishing you the best. Seriously here, I'm glad you exist to help make old classics expensive treasures that will then become valuable and coddled, instead of tossed in the trash as worthless garbage. Maybe the rest of the board should consider this idea. Ie, by monetizing and helping to make old things valuable, they become "keepers" and not just more effluent and trash.
regards!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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jpmountainbooks
A GREAT businessman who understands customer service!
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rand0M aXiS
Trad climber
Beserkeley
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Thanks for the link to jpmountainbooks. I'll never buy another book from this arrogant pissant!!!
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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One comment, signatures of authors or other famous climbers only have value if the owner of the book sits down and gets an autograph from the climber/writer in person.
Someday the world will learn that having Kor or Eastwood's signature on a book that you bought off someone else means squat. You have to meet them face to face, ask for their initials, and ideal drink at least 2 beers with each one.
Thanks to the 30+ folks that signed and wrote all over my Phoenix Rock book, most are still here but a couple have passed away.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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My bet is that locker would prefer something from the Blue period.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Back in the 60s and 70s, Dawsons Bookstore in LA was a wonderful source but sadly no longer.
Thanks for the tip on jpmountain books.
Another great source is Top of the World Books with a specialty on mountaineering and polar exploration.
http://topworldbooks.com
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Wow. That email that Ron put in his last post is beyond belief. The attitudes, feelings, and opinions that man expressed were very, very distasteful. I'm sure he could care less, but I'll never buy anything from him again.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Meh. If he's got something I gotta have, he's still my go to guy. One of these days when I'm feeling fiscally reckless I'm gonna buy Ascent magazine #2.
Unless, that is, one of you guys have a copy you want to part with.
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bookie
climber
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Did I say I fired my employees? A small mis-statement of a verb. The point is that selling books is no longer a viable occupation in America. Did you all miss that? I could not afford employees anymore.
I think my statements are much more literate than most of the comments here. Just the length, and depth of facts, and spilling of the truth, should tell you that I use words carefully. But I also use sarcasm, irony and humor. When I said I fired my employees, it was part of a sentence that described how my business imploded the month of 9/11. Get over it.
Am I pissing off my customers in this thread? No, my critics on supertopo are just the chattering class, as Tami Knight was kind enough to remind me. I have sold $5,000 of books (and manila ropes) since this thread started, so I am doing all right now, thank you.
Am I hot tempered? Sure. But look at Olevesky's fake photo along with his posts. What does that tell you about the man? He even criticized my photo! Because I chose a snapshot where I am smiling and still had my hair. He started this feud, with unfounded statements about me. Nothing he said about me, or what I do, or what happened with Kor, or what I paid, or what I made, is true. Nothing. He made it all up. How could he know anything, he never asked me. If I am making so much money, how is that that I am the only bookseller in America still making money?
Am I concerned about money? No more than all of you. This thread had 20+ posts, critical of my prices and choice of products to sell before I chimed in. I didn't bring this up. This is thread is about what I sell and for how much. How should I respond? Apologize to people who insulted me out of the blue? If people started buying books from me again, I wouldn't have to sell manila ropes, ice axes and signed pitons.
I sell pitons, and have sold piton hammers, and other obsolete gear. How should I know what some super topo climbing maven will find offense with? I think the ropes are cool actually, and so do my customers.
Was I wrong in this Kor business? I have been thinking about this all day, why am I so upset about being criticized for being so "cheap with him." A few hours ago I realized what it is. I did not raise the price on one book that Kor signed for me after he signed them, except maybe three copies of his own books that nobody had yet signed.
Kor had told me in letters (we used to write letters to each other before the internet) that he never signs books for people. So since 20 other climbers had written in the book, and they are mostly available, I asked some of them to sign Kor's book instead. So when Kor finally signed my books, they were already priced too high to go higher. I made not extra one cent on Kor signing Kor's books!
Except for those three books, he signed books like 50 Classic Climbs that already had other signatures. Every time I get another signature, I don't go back and raise the price. Check my website, for 50 Cl Climbs, I even give away the first signature for free if there is only one, now the 1 signature copies have Royal, they used to be Bridwell or Denny.
And also, I explained that I get signatures in books, and always have, to enhance the ability to sell them. Because it is obvious that selling a normal book at full price is impossible in America anymore. I am not in the philanthropy business, although personally my wife and I donate to charities when we want to. I never said I was giving charity to Kor or anybody else, others did. It was payment for services. I did not give him money because he needs dialysis, there are millions of people on dialysis without insurance like Layton. I gave him money because he is written about in books, and I sell books. And I first called him 15 years ago, just ask him.
My mistake was paying him to sign books at all, as I made NO money on it, except for the pitons. Which he actually got a kick out of, and I can actually sell (after I get another person to sign the other side, and also I have to buy and clean up the darn things in the first place.)
And I will cheerfully pay Kor another $2000 today if he will sit down with me and sign some more pitons for me. Serious offer, I already talked to him in Colorado and he turned me down, don't know why. Ask him for me please.
Michael
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Bwahahaha.
Weld-it re-emerges a Chessler fan! Hey bookie do you even know what that means?
Oh, and my "fake photo" was explained long ago but for your benefit; it is Pacino saying, "Every time I'm out they pull me back in."
Get it?
It isn't a dating site.
Russ really isn't Vince Schlomo. LOL
Just got off the phone with Shorty.
We're talking about a sailing trip.
He doesn't want to hear about the stuff you said, but I guess you're gonna go bug him anyway.
Pitons, huh?
I'm qualified to show you how to place those,....
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Bob ....(BVB American Legend...that Bob..)..I have Ascent 2.....I'll mail it to you;.....it's not signed, it's sort of beat, and it has one little section cut out of it somewhere....but you can have it......post your address and I'll put it in the mail..........and thanks for the friendship and visits together over the years.....(er...decades...).....todd gordon
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Todd and Bob--two of the most amazing dudes anywhere.
Some good comes from this thread! Cool!
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Man, what a freakin train wreck this one is.
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WBraun
climber
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The point is that selling books is no longer a viable occupation in America.
I think you mean "printed bound books" as "books" seem to be going digital?
No?
how is that that I am the only bookseller in America still making money?
Is this true? You're the only guy making money selling "printed bound books" not the digital versions?
Are the digital version books making money?
Or is this whole thing going down the tubes?
This is a weird thread, LOL
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bookie
climber
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Hey Maui Mark...
Learn how to read! I never said Layton was a friend, I only met him once in a hotel room in Kingman Arizona to give him $4000, and who gives a sh#t what my motive was. (It certainly wasn't for what guys sometimes have to pay for in a hotel room. That is a non sequitur joke for those reading this who don't get my jokes.)
Friends..... Yeah this is the Super Topo Forum, if you want a friend.... get a dog.
Tami,
Yes, I made a mistake writing 2011 instead of 2001. Now you got a job, please proof read my website for me. All 8000 books. Also, please update all my images as I increased jpeg size from 300 to 400 pixels now, tell me which ones I have to re-do. And I won't "fire" you!
Also, as you are bi or multi - lingual Canadian, can you translate Olevesky's last posting, I am sorry but it is so "in" I don't understand what the clown said!
Talking about the death of the printed book, you may have noticed that Costco, who is a major bookseller now, has cut back on their book titles and inventory. I was told that it is because there was so much "shrinkage," which is polite-speak for shoplifting.
My take on that is people are not satisfied with a 30%-40% discount on books that Amazon and Costco gives. Since TV can be legally free, music can be illegally free, movies ought to be free, and some electronic books are free, now they want new best-sellers for free.
One time I was giving away so many free books in orders, people were sending them back thinking I made a mistake. So I had to buy a rubber stamp that says "Free Gift" and use it on post-its on the books.
Mike
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bookie
climber
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Maui whatever your name is,
I just cancelled my supertopo ad campaign. If that was your intent, you achieved it. I recently won a minor battle with the AAC, through the use of public forums and media, so I know how this works. You win, I lose. G'bye.
I did not start this thread, and I do actually have the freedom to say whatever I want, sell whatever I want for how much I want, to whom I want. I am free to disagree with whoever the hell you are, and realize that because this website and forum is so insular, 99.99% of my actual customers will never see or hear about this train wreck.
And they would be puzzled if they did. And the customer is not always right, who the hell said that they were? Nobody is always right. Except me of course. [Sarcasm intended, for the dim-witted who thought I meant that.]
Customers have no allegiance to anybody anymore, so why allow yourself to be used by customers or anybody? Did you know Amazon is now PAYING customers to go into shops and compare prices with Amazon with a free Amazon app on their smartphones that reads bar codes, and if they then buy that items from Amazon they get a $5 discount? That borders on criminal activity, as a store is private property. When this Amazon thing all falls out, remember you heard it here first; "you'll be sorry", and "I told you so."
I tried to enlighten you about the state of the retail world now, especially the book world, using my business as an example of the dramatic destruction of the retail infrastructure in America by Amazon and the Internet, that will make Walmart's destruction of downtown American cities and towns look like small stuff. I guess serious and important is not as sexy as trying to find some negative gossip on somebody of achievement. America's great past-time.
I know that you have to be part of the "crowd" to be believed on this forum, and that is one place you won't find me. I was never a joiner.
As far as losing customers, I also never thought that I would find potential customers on a website forum thread whose purpose started out specifically to ridicule some trivial item that I offered for sale on my own website. I have already lost thousands of customers to the internet, and millions of dollars, as all bookshops did. Punks with threats like you I squish like a bug.
For those of you who thought I was selling fake manila climbing ropes, or offering them to be used in climbing, shame on you. The fact that Werner appears to misinterpret every sentence I write means that either he better go back to English school, or that he was just trying to twist what I said to get my goat. I met him once, I don't think we talked, so such hostility comes from someplace I'd rather not know about. Part of the crowd, so follow the crowd.
There are thoughtful souls who actually know me and who see this forum as the bullshit it is.
So even though I was rock climbing and mountaineering while most of you were in diapers, or not yet born, I never hung with the boys. My bad.
I wish you all a fond farewell.
Michael Chessler
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rand0M aXiS
Trad climber
Beserkeley
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Don't let the door hit you in the @$$ on the way out CHISSELER.....
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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I realize that you have to be part of the "crowd" to be believed on this forum.
Michael, you are quite believable. Back in the day (my day, mind you, I'm in my 30s) (so this would have been high school for me) I dutifully scoured your available pieces for sale. I found it fascinating, that this esoteric and tweaky pastime would have such a viable interlocutor. I found that there was an implied value in keeping things that were of interest to "us," so I did so.
Lord knows your impression of "the crowd" is awfully misconstrued. Are you seriously talking about a half dozen internet tough guys? Some dudes and dudettes, some of them with legitimate FA cachet, that have a talent for satire and critique that buckles your swash?
Unfortunately, you are being a total dick, right now. It might be time to spread your wings and find a real job.
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Conrad
climber
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From the King James version:
John 8:7
"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
We all have our weaknesses and foibles. None of us are perfect.
Michael has found a niche with in the book market and caters to the literary background climbing is based on. The written word is part of our collective heritage. That it takes the form of an online community seems like a logical progression. I have purchased books from Michael, signed books for him and asked questions of him regarding obscure books. I respect Michael.
The degree of animosity on this thread is unfortunate. We are here to enjoy this short life and help people out. Do no harm. This simple axiom is a guiding principle in my life. Is selling vintage Swiss rope doing harm?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I agree with Conrad up thread a couple posts. No sense being nasty like that. Although I will note MC, there was no need to go for the "dead and rotting meat option" to catch the flies even if you didn't want to do the honey over the vinegar. Good luck in your endeavors regardless. (sarcasm absent)
Michael Chessler said: "Maui whatever your name is,
I just cancelled my supertopo ad campaign. If that was your intent, you achieved it. I recently won a minor battle with the AAC, through the use of public forums and media, so I know how this works. You win, I lose. G'bye.
I did not start this thread, and I do actually have the freedom to say whatever I want, sell whatever I want for how much I want, to whom I want. I am free to disagree with whoever the hell you are, and realize that because this website and forum is so insular, 99.99% of my actual customers will never see or hear about this train wreck.
And they would be puzzled if they did. And the customer is not always right, who the hell said that they were? Nobody is always right. Except me of course. [Sarcasm intended, for the dim-witted who thought I meant that.]
Customers have no allegiance to anybody anymore, so why allow yourself to be used by customers or anybody? Did you know Amazon is now PAYING customers to go into shops and compare prices with Amazon with a free Amazon app on their smartphones that reads bar codes, and if they then buy that items from Amazon they get a $5 discount? That borders on criminal activity, as a store is private property. When this Amazon thing all falls out, remember you heard it here first; "you'll be sorry", and "I told you so."
I tried to enlighten you about the state of the retail world now, especially the book world, using my business as an example of the dramatic destruction of the retail infrastructure in America by Amazon and the Internet, that will make Walmart's destruction of downtown American cities and towns look like small stuff. I guess serious and important is not as sexy as trying to find some negative gossip on somebody of achievement. America's great past-time.
I know that you have to be part of the "crowd" to be believed on this forum, and that is one place you won't find me. I was never a joiner.
As far as losing customers, I also never thought that I would find potential customers on a website forum thread whose purpose started out specifically to ridicule some trivial item that I offered for sale on my own website. I have already lost thousands of customers to the internet, and millions of dollars, as all bookshops did. Punks with threats like you I squish like a bug.
For those of you who thought I was selling fake manila climbing ropes, or offering them to be used in climbing, shame on you. The fact that Werner appears to misinterpret every sentence I write means that either he better go back to English school, or that he was just trying to twist what I said to get my goat. I met him once, I don't think we talked, so such hostility comes from someplace I'd rather not know about. Part of the crowd, so follow the crowd.
There are thoughtful souls who actually know me and who see this forum as the bullshit it is.
So even though I was rock climbing and mountaineering while most of you were in diapers, or not yet born, I never hung with the boys. My bad.
I wish you all a fond farewell.
Michael Chessler "
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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add me to the embargo list.
i vow to never purchase anything from this weasle.
and i'll spread my 2 cents liberally
around the non-taco climbing communtiy.
welcome to accountability, sir.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Great post, Conrad........rings true everytime.....thanks...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Friends..... Yeah this is the Super Topo Forum, if you want a friend.... get a dog.
Actually I've made friends with a number of the people here.
Ever been to a party where you know and are cool with most of the people, and then some guy walks in, unknown to most, and starts picking fights with anyone he talks to?
In this case the irony is that the guy is an incredibly learned scholar on the subject central to most here. He could have been a valuable asset, and still could be if he could pull off a shipoopie.
Could it be that, so resentful of what the net has done to the book biz, Chessler has failed to acquire basic net savvy and any troller can hook him with as little as a bent paper clip? If so leave him be. It is like putting up a bolt ladder on a 5.4 slab.
bookie,
thicken up that skin and learn to choose your battles, and use humor to slough off the trolls.
But most important, take a lesson from Steve, admit you were out of line, be contrite, make amends.
I can't say all will be forgiving, but I'm virtually certain that most will.
As for your seniority; just remember that after going from diapers to diaper slings you should consider yourself lucky to go back to diapers.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Chess strategy is the aspect of chess playing concerned with evaluation of chess positions and setting of goals and long-term plans for future play.... Chess strategy is distinguished from chess tactics, which is the aspect of chess playing concerned with the move-by-move setting up of threats and defenses.... This distinction affects the immediacy with which a sought-after plan should take effect. Until players reach the skill level of "master", chess tactics tend to ultimately decide the outcomes of games more often than strategy does. Many chess coaches thus emphasize the study of tactics as the most efficient way to improve one's results in serious chess play.
#irony
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Locker is like a dog with a bone..... and it's always fun to watch a K9 try to kill something that's already dead =)
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Hey bookie, you got any of those manila ropes in bicolor?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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It started innocently enough...
Chessler, are you serious?
My question was both ironic and tongue in cheek. I have never been one to purposely incite a riot. It just seemed an odd antiquarian item as it will have a finite lifetime before it becomes dust with zero value whereas a book, a signed pin, or an ancient ice axe will/should be around forever and will/should appreciate in value.
From that simple OP where I intended no harm we have arrived at this point. If my OP ruffled feathers I apologize. But if it served to alert the community to issues boiling at the bottom of the pot then perhaps my incredulousness at the beginning brought about some painful but deserved results.
Now, about this bag o' tat I have for sale collected from some of the Valley's steepest 5.4 routes... Hmmm, what price should I ask...
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Ball
Gym climber
Alanta
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Jan 10, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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After reading this thread three things come to mind.
Supertopos is full of a$$ holes
Chessler is a dumb a$$
Piton Ron is really an arrogant self important a$$hole
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The community can always count on wise words from someone who has no clue about the community. His first post... way to make your mark!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 10, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
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That pic took me a second!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 10, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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You guys really are a bunch of a$$holes.
I also detect a ton of envy here.
Your job is a bunch of sweat, rocket science and low pay, while this guy is out making more money than you selling discarded crap to dorks, yuppies and noobs. The same people your climbing ego looks down upon have made him a bunch of money.
I'm with Werner. This guy OWNES you.
Carry on. I'm sure calling him names makes you feel better.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 10, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
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JLP, don't you know what ST really stands for?
Super Trotskyites - "Just wait until we come to power!"
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Jan 10, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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Well, one thing I did learn from these posts - This ain't going down like a Fish Detractor's thread!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jan 10, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
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Ball has it (mostly) right
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Mattq331
Mountain climber
Boulder/UK
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Jan 10, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
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Ball is right, but forgot one thing:
Locker is being an a$$ as well.
Pretty sad thread really.
ST is richer for having the likes of Chessler around, and this petty vindictiveness sucks.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jan 11, 2012 - 01:03am PT
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Chessler has been the leading purveyor of climbing related books for most of my life. All the clowns bad rapping him need to realize where the mountaineering world would be without his life's legacy. Thirty years ago you just couldn't get the stuff Chessler sold anywhere else.
Hope the haters can get what they need at amazon.
Take the Chessler challenge Ron and sell one of your multi-thousand dollar guns and just give the money to Kor. It sounds like you are mad that Chessler gave him more money than you did, that seems like an easy way to even the score.
Or, would that compromise your manhood too much? We couldn't have that, now could we?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 11, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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Let's draw the curtain of charity across this thread, shall we? LEB's not here, so there's no need to behave as though she is.
Nothing new has been said in the last gazillion posts. The dialogue -- if you can call it that -- Is stuck in an increasingly degenerative toxic loop. Most of us who have availed ouselves of his services will likely continue to do so. Those of us who never have will likely never do so, under any circumstances, because they are not pathalogical collectors, like me (guilty as charged.) or have no serious fascination with the long and storied history of mountaineering literature.
True story: Long ago (1979) I was on a John Menlove Edwards kick, and wanted a copy Sampson to review. It had been privately published in a miniscule print run and the only public domain copy in the US was held by the Library of Congress. Yes, THAT library of Congress. Somehow the folks in interlibrary loan at The Evergreen State College got it for me. So I walked around for weeks with that priceless volume in my book bag, along with my dried mushrooms and bong and dirty underwear. I was clueless. It was only years later it occured to me I simply could have reported my book bag lost or stolen and just kept it for myself.
But I doubt I could have lived with myself.
Sure wish I'd photographed and photocopied it.
In any event -- Chessler, if you ever run across it (yeah, I know, never happen) I'm your guy.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 11, 2012 - 01:40am PT
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I've also been looking for a first (and only) edition copy of Auden's "The Ascent Of F2" for 35 years. It simply ain't out there. Library of Congress has a copy and New York City Library has a copy. They don't circulate. They're buried in the rare books vault, right next to the Gutenburg bible, and you need some ironclad university recommends to get even brief examination access. Photocopying is not allowed.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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It was never about his book selling or really the rope or any that sh!t.
Even you yanked his chain about the price the rope Bob.
We all well know the value of this stuff to parties interested.
That's a given.
The thread went viral because he's a jackass and nothing to do with his business.
But he spun it in such way to look like it was about his business.
Jim Brennan said up thread "It seems to me that he likes being bothered."
He kept coming back into the hornets nest and stirring up the hornets like the fool he is and got stung back.
He was shooting himself in the foot all along when instead if he had any sense he could of easily made this whole affair a positive one for himself.
He doesn't how because he's a jackass.
He easily knee jerks anything he remotely perceives as a threat to him imaginary or real.
Narcissistic personality, ..... but then we all have our character flaws too.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 11, 2012 - 02:14am PT
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Even you yanked his chain about the price the rope Bob
Actually, I remarked that "I'd wanna know a hell of alot more about the provenance of those ropes before I shelled out $250.00 ducats for 'em!
Once that got cleared up I remarked that two-fitty seemed like a "screamin' deal" (this of course assumed you're in the market for this kind of ephemera at all. If not, they are of no value whatsoever.)
I went on to explore the phenomena and value of signatures; these observations were made in the context of my belief that i could easily secure many of these signatures without any help from a third party.
I'm just sayin'...we're flogging a dead horse here, and the tone continues to degenerate. It's starting to take on that slow-down-while-passing-a-bad-wreck-to-gawk sorta feel. Whick IRL I always do! But I love climbing books, so I guess this particular thread leaves me with a heavy heart. I'd much rather be slandering Roubidox of slaggin' on that circus freak LEB!
Lots of folks pouring gasoline on this fire. Sure is toasty in here!
Peach, Outtie.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 11, 2012 - 07:54am PT
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the problem with chessler is yanking his ad from chris over this nonsense. it implies someone who thinks he can run the world from his backyard. a small businessman thinking small. and i daresay, a bookseller who doesn't understand the books he sells.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 11, 2012 - 08:20am PT
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Tempest + Teapot + Cranky, bored, over-the-hill climbers + Too much Interwebs = Supertopo.
POW! +1
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mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
los angeles, ca
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Jan 11, 2012 - 10:32am PT
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Thanks for driving up the price guys... no I'll never be able to afford it!
VINTAGE MANILA CLIMBING ROPE c. 1950s
Price $350.00 - Item # HW14
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 11, 2012 - 10:33am PT
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All the clowns bad rapping him need to realize where the mountaineering world would be without his life's legacy
You give bad service, you get "bad rapped". Dude promised delivery by a certain date, date approached, dude didn't respond to inquiry emails until deadline had passed, at which point assholio was rude. Intended gift arrived many days after promised and too late to use as intended gift.
And BTW, you're a f*#king moron if your "argument" amounts to "blah blah blah,haters". Automatic FAIL. But thanks for attempting to play anyway.
That said, please PLEASE explain to me how the mountaineering world would be any different if Chiseler was busy chiseling say, the windsurfing community? It wouldn't be. At all. Did little Mikey secretly invent the 10pt crampon or the reverse curved ice tool? Maybe it was him and not Washburn shooting all those pics of the Alaska Range? My bad, I hear it was really little Mikey Chiseler that put up all those FAs Beckey claimed.
Get a f*#king clue...if you can't find one, maybe little Mikey will sell you one, probably one signed by Col Mustard in Library. You can get Professor Plum's ivory tipped pipe too for the right price. Chiseler is a hanger-on to the scene at most, basically a parasite.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 11, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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Since the middle is everywhere. And to bring everything back into focus: The funny thing to me is that WBraun is framing himself as a hornet - an easily excitable boy. That of course explains a few things.
LOL...
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2012 - 10:48am PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 11, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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Jim was right when he said;
The world is better for someone coming along and saying, " I got it, you want it, this is how much.
so elcapinyoaz is out of line calling him a parasite (and BTW parasites perform a useful function in a healthy ecology) unless Col Mustard got the shlt end of that ivory tipped pipe.
Either way, it is sad that somebody, to whom the last of the book buying armchair mountaineers are his bread and butter, stumbled into a campfire where they and even a few of the people IN those books are just trying to pass a little time before the next climb, only to spontaneously vomit with great vigor.
This is what happens when you eat at the Lodge cafeteria.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2012 - 11:13am PT
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This is what happens when you eat at the Lodge cafeteria.
You know, I ate there decades ago and got sick. I ate there again two Facelifts ago and got SICK! I will not be eating there EVER again. Is this a metaphor?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 12, 2012 - 04:16am PT
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IHATEPLASTICAPITALISM.
IHATEPLASTICELCAPITALISMEVENMORETHANIHATETRYINGTOGETTHISRANTRIGHT, SUTOOPIDS.
THAT WAS LIKE DOING FOUR LAPS UNDER WATER AT THE POOL.
MFM
Is this just a big April Fool joke on me, or is this some slimeball used bookseller trick to jack a rich fool like
YOU?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2012 - 09:47am PT
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"Now this is a book whose history may seem written in its binding. The book is very old: it was printed many-a-year back, at the turn of the century! Naturally, with such antiquity, one expects a few imperfections. (The voice took on the tone of one passing information, arcane and valuable.) Without such flaws, the absent label, the tattered spine, the detached cover, the strongly bumped corners, one must be suspicious lest some unscrupulous collector has had the volume rebound. Such badges of honor stand as the book's guarantee of sincerity! They add character.
"But here with this book, perhaps, there is more. (The auditors could visualize Penwaggle glancing round to make certain he and his client were alone as he continued to whisper.) I ask you to mark well yon detached board. (The voice sank further.) It's possible a famous murderer is responsible for this. I mention no names, and I hope Fred doesn't notice I've pulled this book for you to see, but note how viciously the cover's been ripped off. Then too, this large stain: can you not conjecture the source of its crimson color? Further, see how the frontispiece has been torn away, taking part of the title with it, yet neatly put back in its place! Can this not be evidence of the criminal's mad passion? And for this book, quite possibly filled with historical associations unparalleled in the trade, we ask a mere trifle, thirty-seven dollars and fifty cents."
What was the stain? Tomato-soup, replied the self-satisfied Fred; and many smiled. And the book? 'Twas merely an odd volume from the Harvard Classics. This impressed the Council. And the client? Ah, that's the best part: a young, serious, enthusiastic, newly fledged bookseller from a rival society.
from mcgillicuddy the bookseller by h.c. tidian
published by:
http://www.samjohnsons.com/
however, i have a used copy of mcgillicuddy which came into my possession via one of the great poets of our time. samples of his dna are included in the handsome, hardbound cover. i'm offering this to the mouse from merced at $15, plus shipping of course, and to michael chessler for $57, shipping included, provided he rediscovers the romance of literature and restores his advertising campaign on supertopo. i can help him with his ads, which seemed rather, ah, prosaic at the beginning of the short-lived campaign, but he'll have to pay me.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 12, 2012 - 10:01am PT
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Aye, lad, but 'e'll spit in yair eye all t'same.
Auntryprennership's 'is game, your purse's 'is aim.
Stick with poetry.
Free advice, but you know what they say. I just can't remember.
"But it's free..."--Jimmy Fallon
Fifteen, eh? Plus? Gotta think on it.
Rule one in used bookselling: no impulse buying.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
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Mixed messages herein, summarized by "Die, Capitalist Pig"
But Chessler, being one of a dying breed, is obviously not a Romney clone, but a struggling small scale businessman trying to hang on in a marginal niche.
As for the rest of you, well, I have for decades suspected that the ugliest truth about a number of climbers, especially the most rabidly anti-capitalist, is they actually have never displayed any marketable skills, or revealed exactly how they have survived all these decades with no apparent visible means of support.
I mean, really, WTF have full-time bloggers like Werner or Piton Ron, Locker, etc. done to earn an honest living? Todd Skinner used to go back to the ranch for a few months at a time, then scrounged like a frugal dog to make ends meet; John Sherman actually has a degree, smarts, and the ability to live out of a (albeit nice) van when he wasn't working the oil rig gig.
Nothing worse than a rich trust-funder ragging on someone trying to make an HONEST living.
by the way, Locker, you lied -
Jan 3, 2012 - 08:59am PT
"First and ONLY post..."
we should be so lucky.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 25, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
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AE,
when my fellow students were still in HS I had a degree and apartment in NYC supporting myself working full time for a subcontractor of NASA.
Putting up routes I take the 5-10 X as long to place drilled angles because they are better.
I am sick of anonymous flamers questioning my work ethic, and I won't apologize for being a descendant of others who have done well. I am proud of it.
AE, just what have you done for the climbing community?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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Tokerville Ron said: "I am sick of anonymous flamers"
Ditto
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 26, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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I am pissed now! I am supposed to be packing to leave for facelift, alpine start tomorrow, instead I am laughing my ass off reading this thread. I got as far as Tami's remark about people wanting a taste of MC's messages to Ron, that was some funny sh#t.
On a more serious note, I would be interested in a signed LK pin if the money went directly to him, Ron?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Sep 26, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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Oopsie!
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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oooo, looks like I hit a nerve, eh?
First, Locker, your granpa's going to be pissed when he sees his picture in your posts.
It's been days since I checked here, because, like, I had to go to work.
In re-reading I realize I sort of merged two areas into one gripe, so for clarification:
I did not mean to say that anyone living on trust funds, or investments was dishonest - I was trying to clarify how many, especially in Boulder, are so judgmental about others' behavior, occupations, etc. when it is clear they personally have never had to worry about being laid off, or driving an hour each way to the only job they were able to land. The point I meant to make was about the judgmental aspect, not how any one person came into their money.
Ron's father was apparently an extraordinary classical musician, for those who don't know. I don't read anything here suggesting even a connection to him at all, so this "apologize for descendant" thing comes out of the blue. I have no problem with any legacy passed down to you. I never heard the NASA thing before, but sounds interesting.
Ron, you have clearly left a serious resume of routes, but moreover a unique solution to a problem, that evolved into a well-established style for stabilizing the otherwise inevitable damage to popular aid climbs, especially applicable to softer rocks, but appropriate even in places like Yosemite. I would not credit your efforts in this area as philanthropic, because you clearly did WTF you wanted, inciting the ire of many who disagreed with you; only later did the validity of your approach catch on and receive belated credit. I applaud your dedication and perseverance but in no way confuse your play ethic (climbing) with your WORK ethic, since the latter is STILL UNKNOWN. This is where your judgmental attitude intrudes, because if you are living off an inheritance, you are immune to the market vagaries which Chessler has to live with.
This post began with light-hearted jabs at Chessler's business, but RON, you were the first to go personal, way off OP, re: Kor, dollars, personal management, dollars, etc. I have a sore spot for anyone who broadcasts their own "noble causes" to the world. Both Chessler and Ron come up short here, out-shouting about who did more for Kor (hey, that rhymes, let's use it for a Fundraiser).
Let anyone who feels they were personally assisted financially come forth and tell the story, rather than the "Giver" patting his own back. Or, if cheated, say that also.
Otherwise, if you want to help someone, by all means, give them some money, skip all middlemen, and don't brag about it.
There is "Community" and there is "Climbing", and I find it best not to confuse the two.
The only "contribution" I try to make is all I hope other climbers make, which is "don't f*ck things up for the next person."
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| Messages 1 - 185 of total 185 in this topic |
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