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climbnplay
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 27, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
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Just read up about hand drill history - is the Dakota System still being used nowadays at all? Or has it been completely overtaken by the Rawl system (like Petzl Rocpec hand drill and the Hurricane)? Curious about people's thoughts on the two approaches to hand drilling.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Dec 27, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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Interesting link,
Thanks
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Dec 27, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
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climbnplay,
You seem to have the chronology out of order. The older style hand drills were made by both Rawl and Star Tools. They used a steel holder with a tapered hole which accepted a tapered shank drill bit. These were the standard from the 1960s and into the 1980s. It required substantial hammering on a tapered wedge "ejection pin" to drive the friction-fit drill bit out of the holder. Often the wedge would deform before the bit ejected. Changing bits on a route was difficult. Making it worse, bits would sometimes break off in the hole while drilling from a stance. Rawl made an optional rubber grip. Star had a holder with molded-fused grip. The Rawl grip would slide down the holder while hammering. Clearly something better was needed.
Dakota Bolt Works came out with a straight or non-tapered shank drill holder in the 1980s. The drill bit was retained in the holder with set screws. Pika Mountaineering sold a non-tapered drill holder, again using set screws. Hurricane Mountain Works (John Middendorf) invented a drill holder with an adjustable collet retaining system (mid 1990s). The Pika and Hurricane would accept the modern SDS bit, and was another leap in hand drilling. Both Fixe and Petzl ("Roc Pec") now sell SDS bit holders.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 27, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
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Basically no one uses either "Rawl" or "Dakota" systems anymore, there are various drill set ups which take SDS bits (Petzl, Fixe, Pika, Hurricane), and the Hurricane is also adaptable to anything you want with the right collets (particularly HSS bits, which drill much faster but are a lot more labor intensive in preparing - typically used by people drilling a ton of new bolt holes).
Generally the Petzl is light and simple, but pinches your hand unless you add some tape (which then slows down drill bit switching). The Fixe is heavy but is the best for guys with big hands. The Pika is just annoying since the set screws loosen up easily. The Hurricane is the best for those drilling a lot, but requires wrenches - and it's the only option for HSS bits.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 27, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
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How about this hand drill…?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 27, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
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What the heck is that? Looks cool!
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climbnplay
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
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VERY COOL. Anyone has a spare hand drill they want to sell me? :D
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Dec 27, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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I still use a rawl handle.
Leeper drifts are the schinitz and do not deform when driving bits out.
My first handle (borrowed) was a self drive
 then a star #20 (A taper) which was mighty long
-then I got into rawl (#14's) and especially love old 5.10 straight flute 3/8" bits for drilling angles in the desert. I have a handful of 1/4" super drills for rivets.
I bought a new d5 handle but still am looking for 4" overall bits for it with slow twist or straight flute.
and I don't use cordless drills except on construction sites.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 28, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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It’s a prototype that Aric made and it uses a better/more aggressive collet (ER16) than the Hurricane. I’ve had it here for a few months now but haven’t had a chance to use it yet and will post up when I do. Replacing the nylon with a cable wrist loop before use might be good.
The design idea for the drill started in this thread, here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1350513&msg=1362224#msg1362224
Thanks, Aric!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Jan 11, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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Thanks for tipping me off to this thread, Minerals! Somehow missed it.
Yup, the drill he posted is mine and grew out of the Luke Malatesta's thread about doing a new run of Hurricanes. I basically took Duece's design and swapped out the collet for ER16 (from DA200) and added a vibration-isolation system in the grip to help reduce wear and tear on the hand holding it (all while keeping it under Hurricane-weight).
It's actually an unfinished project as the swap to ER16 was to take advantage of it having 3 times the clamping force as DA200 for a given torque on the collet nut, which should make it possible to simply have a collar on the collet nut to make drill changes tool-less (as it is now you use a wrench and the ring at the end of the handle). One of these days I'll find time to make another batch of collet nuts and see if it works as well in practice as it does in theory....
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 11, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
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Keep me posted on how the ER16 collet works. We actually considered that collet type, but chose the DA series--maybe due to cost at the time? Can't remember. Looks good!
Cheers
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 11, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
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Wow...that's a neat looking drill!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Jan 11, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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Will do, Duece. BTW, did you get my reply to your email from a week or so ago? Only thing I'm missing for the other 2 drills I made are collet nuts, so once I find time to make them a drill will be on its way to you. :-)
Oh, and it's quite likely the ER16 was much pricier back then as they were fairly new to the market and not all that common (IIRC it took a while for Rego-Fix to license the design / knockoffs to come out).
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jan 11, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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coool with an extra 'o'
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Jan 11, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
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Looks way good Aric. Nicer than the proto I made. I'd love to check one out. When I made mine I just chopped down an ER16 Collet holder and added an insert to the back and a cable leash.
Machining the collet bore was out of the scope on what I could do with my equipment.
There is a pic of mine in minerals link.
Again. Nice work.
Luke
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Jan 11, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
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Thanks Luke, and same as with Duece; once I get the collet nuts made yours will (finally) be on the way as well...
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jan 11, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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Very cool!
There are many who still use 1/4" hardware on the FA. A no 14 A Taper Rawl holder was my go to. Now I use the Hurricane, for both 3/8 and 1/4" drilling, although there are a few Proto's out there that are shorter.
A big thanks to the MANY tutorials Minerals was so gracious to offer here on the taco, clearly showing how to get up to speed on HSS drilling.
That E16 collet is bound to hold together longer than the DA200, which tend to break at the wrong time!
Aric- Nice drill!
Minerals- Where can we get the good HSS?
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Jan 11, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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Minerals- Where can we get the good HSS?
That's another unfinished project Minerals and I were kicking around offline a while back... I got as far as finishing the solid models and starting on the machining code for a high helix drill specifically for hand drilling, but got sidelined by the yet-unfinished heat treat oven (which is needed for the rather complex heat treat schedule needed by S7 tool steel, which I think is a better choice than HSS due to increased toughness).
Funny how a baby keeps you from getting much done hobby-wise... Sigh.
Anyway, McMaster has all sorts of choices for suitable HSS drill bits (although none with as high a helix as I would like and none in S7)... http://www.mcmaster.com
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