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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
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I've looked at it and accept that it is safe enough for ME. You should only use this if you feel you understand it enough that you feel it is safe enough for YOU. I make no guarantees.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
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It's working in my browser, Richard.
On a Mac using Safari.
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mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
los angeles, ca
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works for me too.
Thanks for the video - Great stuff!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"... the thing that makes it safe ...." in theory
"How could the tag rack fall off its rack?"
Easy! You go falling past it!
If you are on a harder section, you may have to construct a mini powerpoint along the pitch to have something that you feel confident in.
One thing I would strongly suggest is that you first duct-tape closed the carabiner that you use for the slippery overhand knot. Because sooner or later, you will somehow accidentally pass the rope section with which you are tying the slippery overhand knot THROUGH this carabiner, instead of around it. And of course when you go to pull up the tag rack, the slippery overhand knot will release, but the rack won't come up because it's stuck through the carabiner! [This is not Big Wall Theory, this is Big Wall Fact]
So use some duct tape in the first place to prevent this from happening, at least until such time as you are certain you know what you are doing. And then you can stop with the duct tape. Until Big Wall Fact occurs, and you hear my words echoing....
Geez Mark, slippery overhand knot, DMM Revolver, where did you ever come up with such brilliant ideas?? {wink}
Nice work, Mark. You're becoming a real live Wall Doctor.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
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the only thing I created here is the vid, all the other ideas were from Pete!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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What's that hunk of plywood with those funny grey things on it for?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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awesome!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Hmmm. Mac with Firefox. It does work when I look at it with Safari.
Edit: This is probably a result of UTube and Vimeo moving to HTML5 standard, using a codec that is not implemented in Firefox, because of the conflict with open-sourcedness introduced buy royalty fees for the codec. Unless or until this gets worked out, a lot of videos aren't going to play in Firefox. Some people think this a move by Google to force people to switch to Chrome (although for Mac users, Safari also works).
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Where are you bound?
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New application for an old thing. I'm down, where it would be useful.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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I'm lost.....
What's the point of this system?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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It allows you to hang excess gear on a fifi hook while soloing, so you don't have to wear your entire aid rack when starting out to lead the pitch. You could have fifty pounds of gear on a hard aid wall, easily, maybe more. With no partner to zip it up to you, this prevents you starting the pitch carrying too much weight. When you need gear, you can pull up your solo tag rack, hang it on a fifi and carry on.
The slippery overhand knot is a backup to the fifi. The "bag" is a solo tag rack that holds all your gear, your lunch, a can or two or beer if you have packed appropriately, maybe your rain gear if things are looking a little grim, and perhaps an inflatable sheep. The rack also has a bag that holds the remainder of your lead rope. Your excess lead rope is what you use to pull up the rack. The top of the haul line attaches to the bottom of the rack, not to you.
Learn, study, and practise. You definitely want this arrow in your quiver, Paul.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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One man's blankie is another man's sheep.
Geez, Hugedong, you deleted your post.
Voice of Bob McKenzie: "Oh, way to leave me hangin', eh?"
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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Sorry but I saw you had already explained it to Paul.
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SWH
Trad climber
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:13am PT
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So, I'm a solo aid rookie, but why even use a fifi hook at all in this system, why not just use the slippery knot? It seems to me that leaving the hook in the system just increases the chances that the tag bag will get stuck, either on the anchor or while hauling... school me!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:45am PT
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Hmmmmm, never thought of that one. If the rack were hanging on the knot itself, how would that work? It would make the knot pretty darn tight, which could be advantageous. Would it be harder to pop the final knot to release it?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2011 - 01:14am PT
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With just a rack hanging on the knot it might not be too hard to pull out, if you have a bag of any weight, it could be really hard.
Although! Feature this:
On ZM this spring, I was doing the big hooking pitch at the bottom of the Circle, The start of the 9 O'clock Roof Pitch. I was about 20 feet out dead left of the tag bag, on hooks, when all the tag line started to funnel out of the its rope bag, I sat there and watched it, there was nothing I could do, finally the weight of the falling rope popped all the Slippery Knot and the whole deal came tight onto the Fifi hook. Without the hook, the bag would have just gone the distance and then onto my waist with me on a hook!
You want to use a Petzl Fifi so that the force of the falling rope comes onto the bottom of the hook, thereby pulling it even more into the anchor.
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
nevada city, California
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:16am PT
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sarcasm is such a slippery beast in text.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
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Thanks for schooling me. Mark, nice job on the video!
Sounds easy enough. I just didn't take into account the potential rack weight one would need.
So the tag rack is tied to the free end of the lead line and from there the haul is attached to that. So if I understand this correctly, at some point you'll have to pull up the tag rack to continue on up, which if a guess right would be around the half way point of the rope?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
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Paul,
Yes. Let's say I have 200 feet of rope available for the pitch. I can climb 100 feet before having to tag. You want to look up and plan ahead, you don't want to have to tag if you're in the middle of a dicey section. After you tag at 100 feet, you now have 100 feet of rope available and can climb 50 feet before having to tag again. Get it?
I have 40 feet of 8 mill tied to the end of my lead/tag line so that I can climb longer pitches and have to tag only once. Given 240 feet of useable rope, you'll be able to climb any 120 foot pitch without tagging.
If you are going to use this technique, with the tag line extension, you want to sit down and figure out how the whole process works, you don't want to be in, i.e. a free climbing section and run out of rope.
If you are a "take it all" kind of person on aid climbs, you don't really need to tag. Tagging takes time and planning. If that's not your style, there are other ways to skin the same cat.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 10, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
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Give Mark Hugedong full credit for the "slotted" Petzl Fifi - definitely the Better Way.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
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Mark,
Gotcha. What device did you use for self-belay while leading?
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Dec 10, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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@Mark and PTPP,
Why not use a closed ring of some sort instead of a duct taped carabiner. I was experimenting with a black diamond ultralight Figure 8 rappelling device and it worked great. I want to try maybe a Sterling Rope or ABC descending ring which looks like it would be sweet if it doesn't turn out to be too small in diameter.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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A Grigri although I'm getting a Silent Partner for the free climbing on Iron Hawk next spring.
Morgan, a ring would be fine although once you tag, let's say off the anchor, the ring will stay at the anchor and you'll need another for where you leave the bag. You'll need yet another ring if you need to tag a third time. All in all, I've made mistakes but I've never made that mistake, although, I'm not dead yet...
;-)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
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Make some more info videos Mark.
Thumbs up and I like ......
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
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Mark, please excuse my newbishness....
So you'll aid lead on a GG, but free climb on a SP. Why is one device preferred over the other?
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ruppell
climber
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
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Silent partner locks regardless of how you fall. Invert a gri gri and have it catch something well it's kinda like how did that happen
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Dec 11, 2011 - 12:53am PT
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I was looking for a more technical explanation.....
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ruppell
climber
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Dec 11, 2011 - 01:00am PT
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Ok so ur one of those slow folks
Silent Partner = clove around a centrifugal system = unless the clove or rope or device completely fails your ok
GG = rope threaded through a cam = thread it backwards epic fail = thread it correctly and lock down the handle mini epic fail
Thread it properly take a 30 foot aid whip and have that lever get caught up in your rack = MEGA fail
Hope that simplifies it for ya
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 11, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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Thanks Pete and Mark. Good video!
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
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So far, in two solos, and a few small falls, I've had good experiences with the Gri-gri as a self belay device.
Free climbing with it is another story. The thing will feed rope all by itself depending on which side of it is weighted more. You might be leading off the anchor and not know that you have a giant loop of rope on that side. Conversely, when free climbing, you might look up and judge that there is a good spot to stop up ahead, feed yourself out that much slack but half way there find that the rope has back fed and that you've come tight to the device. I'm hoping the Silent Partner is better in that regard.
I'm not too worried about the Gri-gri getting tangled and me taking the giant fall since I tie back up knots every 30 feet or so. Yea, I could hit a ledge and on and on and on but it's a risk I'm constantly aware of and modify my actions accordingly, that's sort of what soloing is all about anyway.
BTW I don't solo A10 either, I'm never looking at giant falls, I'm not that much of a hardman!
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