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Ouch!
climber
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Mar 19, 2006 - 06:17pm PT
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Being Nevada, maybe he went double or nothing with the judge....and lost.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 19, 2006 - 06:37pm PT
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Looks like he and Marnie both went up the river for the murders. You did better than me at finding our anything at all about it the crime or who was involved...
http://prisonsfoundation.org
Richard Hinger, Three Teepees / High Desert State Prison, Indian Springs, Nevada
Richard Hinger, 68, works in acrylic, gouache, and watercolor. Before his incarceration his work was shown in California fine art galleries. He had, he reports, several solo exhibits in Los Angeles and Houston, and he owned a Houston art gallery. In addition to his personal artwork, he now creates prison murals and teaches English to fellow inmates. His watercolors depicting teepees "mean freedom to me," he explains.
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LqdSlvr
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Mar 19, 2006 - 06:38pm PT
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Lois, I don't know anything about the case, but I can answer a couple of your general legal questions. First, life sentences can get handed out for other things as well, such as conspiracy ior kidnapping. Perhaps he kidnapped, then murdered these people. Two counts of eachwould be four felonies, each of which can give a life sentence.
On the self-defense issue, that is RARELY cut and dried. If two people have a long history of animosity and both carry guns, then there is only one survivor of the encounter, it becomes a fact question for the jury. Also, there are "reasonableness" issues. A person, in most states to win on self-defense, must prove that he or she had a reasonable fear for his life. There are a LOT of factors that go into that question that prevent it from being clear cut. Perhaps the decedent didn't actually have a weapon at the time, but the shooter THOUGHT he did. Was this belief reasonable? Depends on a lot of facts and is anyhting but clear cut.
Anyway, hope that helps clarify some of the issues.
Jimmie
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 19, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
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I interact with many artists. Many have mental health issues.
I think more so then the population at large.
I am becoming a fine artist.
Juanito
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Ouch!
climber
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Mar 19, 2006 - 07:13pm PT
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Lois, if you could somehow contact the aliens, perhaps they might tell you. But then, you would probably get locked up too.
Maybe Juan and Rajmit can put you in touch with them.
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Ouch!
climber
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Mar 19, 2006 - 07:31pm PT
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Lois, check for one of the sites that document legal proceedings and you might find a trial transcript.
edit. If you know the dates of trials and appeals, you might locate it on FindLaw site in the Nevada State section.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Mar 19, 2006 - 11:05pm PT
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Maybe just like the owl doesn't make the murder good, the murder doesn't make the owl bad.
In all our lives, none of us are just owl makers or just murderers. Every one of us is both. Even if we pretend that it isn't true.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 19, 2006 - 11:46pm PT
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Yeah...it is a bit of a bubble-buster, when you find out "someone" you admired is a deeply flawed human, and not only that, has gained notoriety for the fact....
The first time I ever learned about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome(FAS) was in reading a book called "The Broken Chord," by Michael Dorris. It was a true story of a young native american man, a college prof who, wanting a son, adopted a native american boy as a baby. He too, had no idea about FAS until that time.....
It is an incredibly heart-wrenching tale of patience, frustration, agony, exctasy - the whole gamut of emotions. The man went on to author a few more books, which told stories of his finding the love of his life(Louise Erdrich, also native american and an award-winning author herself), marrying her, the two(if I remember correctly) daughters in the family, and more on his son as he comes of age and grows toward young adulthood, heavily disabled with FAS. The details of that disorder are utterly astounding. The kid is so damaged that he can't keep time straight enough to save his school lunch sandwich till noon and instead eats it on the bus, every morning, because he finds himself with a sandwich in a bag, every morning, on the bus.
The boy dies, as a young man, when he is walking to work, as a busboy, early one morning, and simply heads right across a multilane highway. Because he doesn't understand the relatiosnhip between himself and the cars on the raod.
What a shock and a half it was to find out that "saint of a man"(the author) was arrested and jailed for sexually abusing the daughters. Repeatedly, for years. And for physically abusing their mother, his wife. We'll never know what he did with the son he made a living off writing about, because the kid couldn't have explained if he was being molested or abused in the first place, and he has died before the "real life" story unfolds.
Oh, and it turned out that Dorris couldn't verify his heritage either. He was on no tribal records, and had, apparently, made up his MicMac ancestry.
On the other end of the spectrum, I remember my first exposure to "things aint what they seem, sometimes, when I found out, to my shocked dismay, that S.E. Hinton, author of "The Outsiders" was not an hot ex-hoodlum guy turned great writer, but..... a lady.
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Ouch!
climber
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Mar 20, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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Lois, forget that convict. Here's an owl for you. His name is Buford Pierre.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:15am PT
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Bet that mouse would beg to differ...
Ouch, tell me now, is this #1 in a series of 2, or maybe even 3?
-Kate.
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Ouch!
climber
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:16am PT
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It's just computer doodling, Lois. Like scribbling on a napkin for 5 minutes. This Microsoft software is fun to play with.
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Ouch!
climber
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:18am PT
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LOL! Kate, I hadn't thought beyond the moment. I was just ragging on Lois and trying to stir Chaz up.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:28am PT
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2 pizza dudes,
they attacked him when he failed to tip. He killed'em in self defense.
IT's cheaper to tip.
Seriously though, you have to decide this stuff case by case. Think how many artists, muscians, entertainers etc, we all patronize that have done all manner of horrible things.
Not Jackson Pollack, James Brown, Hemingway, Miles Davis, nor Picasso are going to get awards from NOW, but still made valuable contributions.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:29am PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:30am PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:32am PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:34am PT
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:35am PT
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does the one with the building depict a real place, Juan? It reminds me of something.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:36am PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:38am PT
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If the Jews in Vienna gave him a chance it could have been different.
Juan
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 20, 2006 - 01:53am PT
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Juan is trying to say that the murderer Hitler could paint to.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 20, 2006 - 02:01am PT
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I got that, but still want to know what the building is.
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LqdSlvr
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Mar 20, 2006 - 09:07am PT
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Been a way for a bit. Lois, Ouch! pointed you in the right direction for finding the details. Findlaw is a good source, but if you know the court, a google search will frequently reveal the court website and they often post at least a docket on the net. Sometimes a limited number of docs are also available and in rare cases, the entire file.
On the other issue, my recollection is that self-defense is an affirmative defense and the burden is on the defendant to establish it, albeit at a preponderance of the evidence standard rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. I have no idea about the statistics, but would point out that, to answer your question, you would have to perfectly know the facts and state of mind of the defendant to determine if it was really self-defense. Clear cut cases are easy and usually the shooter is never even charged. When you get into the realm of trials, you would never know for sure whther it was a righteous shoot or a murder designed to look like self defense. That what the jury must decide and you are really asking "does the jury always get it right?" I'm fairly sure they don't. :) There are also cases known as "imperfect self-defense" killings. These are where some of the elements of self-defense are present, but not all. For example, there may have been a subject fear, but not a fear that was objectively reasonable. In such cases, those facts area mitigating circumstances that can sometimes reduce the charge or sentnce.
On a side note, the Hitler dude could really draw. Too bad he got sidetracked by that whole megalomania-conquer-the-world thing.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Mar 20, 2006 - 10:05am PT
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Sorry, Hitler was not very good as an artist.
The drawings are amateur or student quality.
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LqdSlvr
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Mar 20, 2006 - 10:53am PT
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Yeah, dirt, but I really wanted to make that megalomania comment and that was the best way to work it in. ;)
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Mar 20, 2006 - 11:21am PT
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Come on Lois how old are you? Only now you are starting to loose that warm fuzzy feeling about our society?
Buy the paintings they have nothing to do with the acts of the artist. By analogy how can you participate in this national community knowing of the tens of thousands of victims of Bush’s war.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Mar 20, 2006 - 03:15pm PT
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I think Hitler had some real talent.
Juanito
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 20, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
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Uh, don't buy the painting, if it's that big a deal.
I can think of at least one other, much larger, state that fits the criteria you 'posited.'.
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LqdSlvr
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Mar 20, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
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Lois,
Each state is a bit different, both from a black-letter law standpoint and a public sentiment standpoint, so it's impossible to provide any universally accepted guidance. The LEO's on the forum might have some concrete rules, though. Speaking in general terms, if you are in fear for your life, don't take chances. Most of the stranger-killings fall into the clear cut category, so long as you act reasonably. If someone breaks into your house when you are at home and you have no easy way of retreat (a requirement in some jurisdictions, though not all), then you are likely justified. On the other hand, your hypothetical is likely murder because the law is not going to allow such self-help. The participants should just go to the police.
Where it gets really complicated is that very few killings occur between complete strangers. You are more likely to be killed by a family member, acquiantance, or business associate. Suppose you have two guys engaged in a drug business. Both guys brag to their friends about planning on bustin' caps in the other. The two have a deal that goes bad and one ends up dead. The killer claims self-defense. There are no witnesses. If we had perfect knowledge of what happened and what the killer thought, it would be easy, but we don't. Against the killer's story of self-defense, the prosecution is going to put on evidence of a prior statement about killing the guy. The defense is going to rebut with witnesses who say that the killer knew the decedent intended to shoot first. The jury has to sort it out and it won't be clear cut, even if decedent is found with a gun in hand (planted?). Those are the hard cases. The burglar in the house is typically an easy case.
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LqdSlvr
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Mar 20, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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Lois, Pursuant to US Supreme Court decision (can't remember the cite off the top of my head) the leaving of an escape route is required in any instance where the use of deadly force is NOT authorized. In other words, if you can't just shoot him, you have to leave an escape route. That's not just CA or NJ, but nation wide.
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LqdSlvr
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Mar 20, 2006 - 06:29pm PT
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Lois, you are correct about the uselessness of a barricade with an escape route (in my law enforcement days I watched more than one suspect just drive around the patrol car), but the rules are the rules. The Supreme Court has ruled that a barricade without an escape route is the equivalent of deadly force, rightly or wrongly. Just as you cannot use deadly force against a fleeing felon, you cannot use a barricade without an escape route (unless one could shoot them anyway). Again, however, there are some considerations. For instance, if the suspect vehicle comes to a halt and the police can hem it in while it is stationary, that's something else entirely. You just can't set up a barricade at the base of the off ramp with concrete walls on either side.
I'm glad you found the prior explanation useful. These are fascinating subjects, even if they aren't climbing-related.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 20, 2006 - 06:37pm PT
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Wacky is as wacky does, I guess. It's hard to believe you could use an armed crew to surround someone with no possibility of shooting them. But what do I know?
As far as corrupt states go, don't leave Illinois or Arizona out if it. Richard Daley. Shoeboxes full of money etc. And, Chicago cops have been know to find provocation in a surround situation; ie Fred Hampton & Mark Clark.
Drive around the police car, Really? that is wild.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 20, 2006 - 06:41pm PT
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Chicago (my home town), Philly, Boston, NYC, and Baltimore all have "olde skool" police forces with long, long histories...
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 20, 2006 - 07:13pm PT
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Murder in "Nevada"
Now we are escaping at high speed with Hitlers paintings in tow battling it out with the Chicago NY NJ Arizona and other state/city police in self defense.
Hahahaha
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 20, 2006 - 07:18pm PT
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Wadaya want? Linearity?
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sport freak
Ice climber
las vegas, nv
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Mar 31, 2006 - 10:35am PT
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as im writing this,i have my contacts in las vegas getting me the details of what went wrong with this VERY reserved,sweet & sexxy girl. MARNIE PEOT was a very dear friend of mine, within the last few days i found out the devistating news, i have not seen or heard from Marnie in 20 years. im in the process of getting in touch with her. i have no idea what went so terribly wrong in her life to put her in the situation she is in & where she got involved with Richard C. Hinger, who must have had a huge influence in her life. Marnie was charged with Counts 1 & 2, "MURDER 1st DEGREE, COUNTS 3 & 4 "USE OF DEADLY WEAPON ENHANCEMENT", Count 1, LIFE, with parole eligibility 05-09-2009, Counts 2,3 & 4, sentence "PENDING", i will be very aggressive @ finding out what happened very quickly. if you want to know the details as i find them out, let me know asap. my email DCLV49@MSN.COM.....this is heartbreaking & am shocked by this bizzare news !!!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Oct 30, 2006 - 01:36pm PT
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Take it to a crime forum. And no way he got out because he painted a nice mural..... sheesh! Earth to Lois...... your foil hat is tilted.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Oct 30, 2006 - 02:09pm PT
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Looks like they / she has a forum on her own site... tellya what... email all the Tacos that posted on the original thread and invite them over to HER board.
Locker style edit:
If you think a judge let a murderer out because of a nice mural, it is not only your foil hat that is tilted.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 30, 2006 - 03:12pm PT
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IMHO, her posting information like that on a forum like this would be a very bad idea. There are no guarantees of conversations w/o flame wars or hurt feelings. I don't see much good coming from it.
My $.02.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 30, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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If she has ever been on an internet forum, she knows how to get into one and make a post, and should have no need for instructions.
Plus, it's a little strange that you think, Lois, that you can exact promises from people. One person's funny quip could be another person's painful sting. Ya just can't control things like that.....
But I assume the woman is now following this thread, so I will say to her: I am sorry for your loss, and that after all this time, the wound has been reopened with the release of the person.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 30, 2006 - 05:44pm PT
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She is of course free to post where she wants. but I don't think this virtual real estate would be one of the best choices.
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fareastclimber
Big Wall climber
Hong Kong & Wales
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Oct 30, 2006 - 05:44pm PT
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If this is the same owl artist I think it is, I believe he suffered from severe schizophrenia. Which of course is not an explanation to his crimes, but does explain why he was obsessed with painting owls.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 30, 2006 - 11:38pm PT
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I can think of at least one other.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 30, 2006 - 11:50pm PT
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I think what Lois really wants to know, after all of this bleating around the blush, is "Do you think she should ask the guys to sign the paintings?"
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 30, 2006 - 11:54pm PT
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I am still waiting for Lois to "get a joke".
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:00am PT
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LEB made a joke!
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:18am PT
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Still waiting.
So sad.
Next she will want me to explain her joke to her.
Juan, step in please, and advise.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:31am PT
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a got a giggle, but liked the picking the nose one better.
Lois I am not at liberty to say, a climber, though.
All the other exmarines that I know are remarkable people, each in their own way.
And again I vote that that unfortunate woman not post (and maybe not even surf) here.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:32am PT
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LEB,
How has this affected your appreciation for Richard Hinger's art? Do you still enjoy the paintings you have as much as you did before you found out he was a murderer? Do you still display them? Do you think you can ever bring yourself to acquire more of this works?
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wonderbread
climber
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Oct 31, 2006 - 12:48am PT
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She made another joke-The Deli Llama-hmm, who would that be? Does the Deli Llama oversee the Deli Docs? Perhaps advise them?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 31, 2006 - 07:38am PT
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Deli llama? Here in NYC, we have deli cats, who are supposed to keep the mice away. What does the deli llama do? I'd think they'd be rather cumbersome to have floating about in those cramped little stores.....
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me
Mountain climber
las vegas, nv
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April 7 2007
I'm a friend of Richard Hinger. After spending 12 years in prison, he is out. No parole and no probation. He claimed self defense 2 men broke into his house. Still painting, still kicking. His email is hingerrichard@hotmail.com. May the Force be with you!!!!
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couchmaster
climber
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Either send them to me or STFU and enjoy them for what they are.
thank you for listening:
Bill
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Well LEB, I think you are quite aware of the horrendous nature of the crime. If you think you show respect for the victims family by not displaying his art then you should not.
I would display his art and use it to remind me of both the brilliance and darkness of man.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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You'll never be 100% sure either way in your mind, so quit with the drama and get rid of the damn things for christ sakes.
A whole year of agonizing over this.?
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WBraun
climber
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Oh I looked .....
His art looks like the stuff you see hanging in cheap motels ready to be stolen. His abstract art looks confusing.
But! WTF do I know about art?
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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Well, I don't think I'm capable of doing what he did either. But, I can't say that, if I were to experience his life, I would not have done what he did.
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Off the Couch
Trad climber
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Picasso was an abusive womanizer. He destroyed lives by using and discarding people. All those he abused in this manner had their own families, who were negatively impacted by the painter's actions.
I think they're right, LEB: this is just drama. YOU are the one who has to look at the paintings. You either like them or you don't. They are just paintings. They've already been paid for. So the artist is not being 'unjustly' enriched just through your display.
Maybe you should keep them in storage until you sort out your feelings. We can't do that for you.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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LEB
What is it you want? Opinions?
Keep them, put them up to look at.
But then you ask, what if he's guilty?
The other side of this double edged troll is:
Get rid of them, they were painted by a murderer.
From you again its, what if he's innocent?
what if what if what if what if
A day.....maybe a dilemma.
A week.....maybe an epic.
A year......a drama.
Is it your morals your worried about or public opinion?
You will never find all the answers (agonizing) to your endless supply of questions to the validity of the trial.
I'll give you my honest opinion, and I mean this is the nicest way possible.
Sh#t or get off the pot.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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LEB,
Don't put words in my post.
I didn't say you've been discussing this for a year, I pointed out that it is over a year and you've still got (doubts) questions.
I'm glad you decided to not decide by putting them in your closet, and that you finaly decided to tell people that that is your decision.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 17, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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I'm glad that you found some peace in your heart for art Lois. Of course, the offer to send them to me still stands...LOL!
Take care
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:22am PT
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The Owls are not what they seem
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