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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 28, 2011 - 01:07am PT
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I can get a really good deal on a dewalt 20v hammer drill. Anyone know if they are any good. I do not do a lot of drilling with a hammer drill so if it will do a fairly decent job in granite that would work for me. Let's say 6 to 10 holes per battery, then I think I am good.
TIA
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Nov 28, 2011 - 01:43am PT
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You want a rotary hammer... not a hammer drill.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2011 - 01:52am PT
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what is the difference?
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2011 - 02:13am PT
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Ok, anyone know anything of the Dewalt rotatory hammers?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 28, 2011 - 02:18am PT
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I think Dingus has a dewalt roto.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2011 - 02:27am PT
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Munge,
thanks, you have any idea how it does. works ok?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 28, 2011 - 06:03am PT
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I Have used a 24v Dewalt SDS Rotary hammer quite a bit. it totally rocks. Drilles very fast. much faster than my 36v Bosch. the difference is weight. the dewalt is heavy so it transfers all the energy into the rock. The bosch is super light and has vibration reduction spring in the handle and i feel that is what makes it drill slower.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 28, 2011 - 10:10am PT
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The top end portable drill at the moment is probably the Atlas Copco Cobra Combi, might not be quite what you want though!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 28, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
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I have the Bosch ultra light 36v lithium drill. Good for lead drilling and back country humping. Fairly slow drilling for this type of drill. So far only drilled 3/8ths X3" and it is adaquate for that . have not drilled any 1/2 in holes or 9/16th for glue ins yet but assume that I will need a 2nd battery for that kind of duty. I feel that if you are a serious spurt climber and drilling lots of glue ins you will want a heavier burlier drill. the price with a single battery is decent. extra battery is pricy.
PLEASE Please do NOT buy a drill if you do not know the difference between hammer drill and SDS Rotary hammer. Uncontroled Boschdom can be a real eyesore, political mess and hard to reverse. Please do NOT put up a bunch of crappy routs just because you happen to have a drill. Think Long and hard before placeing any bolts and try to think of the greater good. Is this going to be a 5 star classic that you will want your name attached to or is it a chossheap that was better left untouched? How will this affect access? Is this a squeeze job? Additionaly know your hardware and ONLY use the best equiptment for each situation, rock type, weather conditions, traffic levels. etc. If you do not know what I am talking about Do Not Do IT!!!
Thank You.
Nick
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 28, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
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Yeah Mr. Mud, let the tradman spell it out for you...:)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 28, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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That is good to know. The 24 Dewalt that we use quite a bit is at least 2 to 3 times heavier but seems to fire in the holes about twice as fast as the 36V ultra light and gets at least 8 3" x 3/8th holes in our local rock. have not drilled more than 3 holes in any outing with the bosch so do not know what the limits are?
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Nov 28, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
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The type of rock makes a huge difference. Granite, basalt, and quartzite are all quite hard, much harder than concrete. With my old Bosch Bulldog, I could drill a 1/2" x 4" hole in desert sandstone in about 30 - 45 seconds sometimes.Sierra glacial polished granite may take 5 - 10 minutes to get a 3/8" x 3" hole, with the same drill. Tells you a lot about the rock.
But, you should use the proper equipment if you are going to place any bolts for climbing. I'd say the 24v Dewalt, or the Bosch 36v, or equivilant, would be minimum. You could probably get away with less in soft sandstone though, to be perfectly honest. The rock makes all the difference. The point is to get a good clean hole, nice and straight, with no cratering around the lip.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 28, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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If you're only drilling occasionally, look at flea bay for used drills. That said with any cordless tool, figure whatever battery(ies) that come with the tool will need replacing, though go with a pair of gel cells will be much cheaper than a factory battery pack (though requires some additional wiring and drill mods)
You can also check out your local Hilti dealer, I picked up a used TE10A way back when for a fairly reasonable price at the dealer and it worked fine for the occasional bolt and bolt replacement.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 28, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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And use the right bolt type for the rock medium and the expected traffic that the bolt will see. In most cases SS is best but there are exceptions where it is acceptable to use galvanized with the proper hardware.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 28, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
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I have a deWalt rotary hammer. Great quality, light weight.
Cons: Expensive. Effete yellow color.
Drilled faster, when tested in time trials with new 1/2" bit and a chunk of local, very hard, sandstone, than Verm's much bigger, burly Bosch, in manly blue. Tears might have been shed.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 28, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
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What is the hardest stone to drill in? I put in a bunch of sport routes in limestone and it can be very soft or really hard. Drilling times seemed to vary by about 2-3 times sometimes on the same route. Also drilled in some very hard quartzite with a newish bosch and that seemed harder and got the bit hotter than anything I had done before. I have done some hand drilling in the Needles on Granite and I always thought the if I were to use the power drill it would to faster because of the larger grains in the granite around here.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 28, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
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PLEASE Please do NOT buy a drill if you do not know the difference between hammer drill and SDS Rotary hammer. Uncontroled Boschdom can be a real eyesore, political mess and hard to reverse. Please do NOT put up a bunch of crappy routs just because you happen to have a drill. Think Long and hard before placeing any bolts and try to think of the greater good. Is this going to be a 5 star classic that you will want your name attached to or is it a chossheap that was better left untouched? How will this affect access? Is this a squeeze job? Additionaly know your hardware and ONLY use the best equiptment for each situation, rock type, weather conditions, traffic levels. etc. If you do not know what I am talking about Do Not Do IT!!!
yeah Mud, ya friggin bolt happy over bolter!!
ROTFLMAO at Tradman's post. He just doesn't know the mud...
If the mud can lead this and not put any bolts in and has climbed stuff on Knuckle Ridge without excessive bolting, I think we're ok with him owning a bosch.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 28, 2011 - 08:18pm PT
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You are absoulutly right. I do not know the OP. It is not all that promising though when someone you do not know seems to not know the difference between a rotary hammer and a Hammer drill yet wants to start drilling stone. For all I know the OP is experienced but simply fed up with tendonitus induceing hand drilling. That was my reason for buying a bosch. I do feel that the little blurb that I posted is not a bad list of things to consider when thinking about makeing the move to bolting routs.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 28, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
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It's a bit specious to get hung up on this rotary hammer vs. hammer drill thing. I've seen the terms interchanged over the years, its not like there is some sort of industry standard. You can google either term and come up with tools that are appropriate for the use, and those that are not. Generally if it takes sds bits it's the real deal.
Now if the op is good at nabbing deals on ebay or craigslist, if you come across one of these for a reasonable price
then grab it.
No batteries to need reconditioning, no wondering if the battery has enough juice for one more hole. No slowing down from hole to hole. Drills 1/2" nearly as fast as 3/8".
The only thing I've had to do over the years is rebuild the carb, as the pumper diaphrams dry out when not used regularly. It's a walbro carb and ~$5 for a rebuild kit. Finding the p/n for the kit is the only real bugaboo.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Nov 28, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
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if you have to ask,
maybe (edit: probably) you also don't know enough to be properly placing bolts....
Bosch with Hilti bits.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
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Yeah, that advice is a bit late. I already put up a bunch of crappy routes. Some with bolts, some without. If I have to lug a big heavy roto hammer around I will probably put in even fewer bolts so maybe me buyin a drill will be an improvement for the climbing world.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 28, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
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Screw it, i kind of like wierdly bolted obscure crags. Why not?
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salad
climber
Escondido
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Nov 28, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
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DES! we still gotta finish that high peaks project!
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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Sal,
Most definitely. I think that qualifies as both crappy and weirdly bolted. it was a fun day though.
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salad
climber
Escondido
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Nov 28, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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my feet still hurt. im such a pansy, that last bolt was the most scared ive been in years.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2011 - 12:38am PT
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Good times, off the couch. You were out there on loose, mossy, crud. Next time I am bringing my harness.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2011 - 12:41am PT
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Warbler, thank you for the tip. I will keep an eye out for one of those. that is about my price range.
I'm gonna be dangerous....
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salad
climber
Escondido
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Nov 29, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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haha forgot the harness thing, but as i recall i forgot mine for the column years ago, as well as my helmet! seems like im always off the couch. gotta work on that.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2011 - 12:48am PT
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ran 3 miles today and did a couple planks. Look out!
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salad
climber
Escondido
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Nov 29, 2011 - 01:27am PT
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did 8 yesterday and had to cancel skating tonight cause my legs are toast.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 29, 2011 - 01:43am PT
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> Yeah, that advice is a bit late. I already put up a bunch of crappy routes.
I believe I joined in on several of those!
Mr. Mud, are you gonna powerdrill on lead?
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2011 - 02:35am PT
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Clint, yep you were there with the best crappy ones and I think we have at least one to finish.
yeah, on lead. I may be slipping but I still cannot get into rap bolting. Unless it is to replace bolts. Then I figure what ever it takes to get it right. I suppose it should not matter, but well whatever.
Good to hear from you. I hope to actually climb a couple of times this year.
How many secret projects do you have going? :)
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2011 - 02:46am PT
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Sal,
8 miles, your still a beast. Just started running a couple of weeks ago. Still trying to build up the knee by running on the treadmill so it is a bit mind numbing. Will try out the trails behind work in couple of weeks just to see how the leg holds up. Feels good to be back in the gym. Could barely walk after the 2nd week.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 29, 2011 - 02:53am PT
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For some reason, while a quality build, the Metabo I bought is the slowest thing I´ve ever used. The numbers are good but it just doesn´t seem to get into the rock properly and is now relegated to building work.
This may be due to the hardness of the rock, in marble which is very hard to drill it was piss, in coarse granite good, in fine granite again piss.
When people ask about drills they always forget to tell us, rap drilling or lead drilling. For rap drilling the big Bosch, the big Makita and the Hilti´s (Hitachi also have a good reputation but I´ve never used one) are good but for lead bolting overhanging routes they are arm killers and nearly impossible to use one handed. For roofs and overhanging lead bolting you need to go down to something like a 14V Makita which is what I use. Or you go for the middle ground with a typical 18V drill at about 3 kg which does neither particularly well.
And for all the claimed advantages of Li-ion the batteries are still sh#t, the lifespan is very short compared with Ni-cads (I´m still on an original Bosch Ni-cad in a Bulldog after maybe 10,000 holes and 11 years) whereas my big Makita Li-ion is on it´s second battery after 3 years and a tenth of the work.
For rap bolting being light doesn´t really matter anyway, in fact it makes the drilling slower and harder on your hands as the inertia of the drill is less. All that hammer action comes from somewhere and it is you!
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2011 - 03:08am PT
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JimT,
good input thank you. I was looking at the small roto drills and wondering how they would do. I guess you answered my question. I used a bosch on a slab and was wondering how the sam hill people use those on steep routes. They are a tad heavy. It looks like the answer is to cheat and use a smaller hammer. Most likely takes longer, but faster than by hand plus it leaves one hand to hang on with.
again, thank you
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jack herer
Big Wall climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Nov 29, 2011 - 03:19am PT
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i like my de-walt drill a lot its drilled hundreds of holes and is still very happy
i think i coulda got 50 holes on one battery in this pile... not that it would needed that many but...
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jack herer
Big Wall climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Nov 29, 2011 - 03:21am PT
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de walt all the way!!!
shit but i guess i prolly shoulda just slung that tree
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 29, 2011 - 03:58am PT
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> I think we have at least one to finish.
Yeah, after a little thought I remember it! I wonder if the holds are still there.
One good trick for powerdrilling on lead is to move the batteries off the drill, and connect with an "extension cord".
That way you don't have to lift the battery weight up over your head.
My friend Joel has his Bosch set up that way, and you could probably even arrange to borrow it if you want to check it out.
It has also been explained here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/603971/Bosch-Bulldog-Convertiing-to-SLA-batteries-step-by-step
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 29, 2011 - 06:24am PT
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Mudslinger. no offense intended. just comeing off a bad experience where a friend of mine bought a bosch this summer and placed 100 bolts. of those hundred he managed 2 1/2 pitch routs that are ok and one that is pretty decent. the rest of them are a total eyesore or just rediclously stupid... leaves me a bit nervous whenever someone buys a drill..
the light bosch is 6.6lbs and i took the front handle off to lose a bit more weight. do not know much about the makitas but assume they are good? one trick is to have the drill on a tag line and pull it up when you need to drill. the whole thing where you do have to push on the drill makes it harder to drill from some stances that you could have hand drilled from.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Nov 29, 2011 - 08:01am PT
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One mechanism used in hammer drills to achieve their impact is by offset plate gears overriding each other. I took apart an old Makita hammer drill that quit working. It had two plate "gears" in which the teeth of the gears extended outward radially on the faces of the plates. One plate had torque delivered to it by the motor and other plate could slide along the z-axis to hammer on the bit but this plate could not rotate. The overriding of the power plate gears cause the impact but wears steel to steel which in this case had worn out the face plates.
A pneumatic rotary drill uses a reciprocating piston to compress air causing a small sliding cylinder(the Hammer) to fly against the bit anvil (this is what you see when you look into the back of the center of the SDS chuck. It is amazing that this little hammer can do so much rock crushing. These pieces involved in the rotary hammering show little signs of wear compared to equal time with a hammer drill.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Nov 29, 2011 - 08:20am PT
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Finding hardest rocks to drill can be a misleading experience. It turns out that some quartzites and amphibolites form a very small dust that both gum the carbide (lessening the bit impact) and do not auger very well. Since the carbide on the Hilti bits is butt brazed to the steel shaft and this friction heating causes the brazing to get close to melting leading soon to tip twist off. The carbide tip on the Bosch bits is brazed into a slot on the steel shaft and this design resists twist off torque much better than the $$$ Hilti. Sometimes switching bits styles can alleviate gumming and sometimes so can a fully charged battery with a new bit.
I have taken some of these "hard rocks" home where I could drill them with very high rpm using line 120 volts and seen no problems. The dust and gumming materials spun out.
The hardest rock to drill I have come across was a greenish amphibolite just south of University street in Spearfish, SD.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Nov 29, 2011 - 08:43am PT
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I have had a 24v Bosch bull dog, 3 gas rhyobi rotary drill, 3 Milwaukee 18v's Lithium and one Hilti 24v.
About the time of Lehman Brothers collapse I notice that prices on the Makita 18v lithium were at $130. After testing one I bought two more and got rid of all the above junk. This drill totally outperforms these dinosaurs of the past.
Contrary to what some have said that weight doesn't matter for rap drilling -- IT DOES. Ligther is better when doing overhangs. And so is longer.
The Makita comes in two versions: The Colinear chuck and motor shaft are better for rap bolting overhangs.
For drilling while leading the compact design with the motor shaft at a right angle to the chuck seem better or maybe the lightness of 14 v Makita would sever one best. I have little experience in this area.
Contrary to what Jim T says about weight the 18v Lithium Makita simply outperforms those behemoths of bigness that are out there. Don't go big unless you like to pack such crap(for dilling big holes often > 3/8" in granite) and you got the tool dirt cheap. Some of my friends have such heavies as the 36v Hilti's, 28v Milwaulee's and they are no fun on overhangs (they are pigs).
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Nov 29, 2011 - 09:19am PT
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Yes,
that is great price for the Makita 18v lithium, it was originally $450.
I have put in over 3000 bolts with my most used one of these and it still cuts rock like butter.
Also you can put the tool in chisel mode only. You clean out those lose flakes inside cracks in no time (a trad tactic).
Or you can use the chisel for enhanced hold making on sedimentary rocks( a sport tactic).
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
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Dingus, you da man. I bookmarked the Makita link. It looks like that is probably the way I will go. Light sounds good to me and it sounds like a solid recomendation that will hold up. I will be doing most if not all my bolting on lead and I like steeper climbs. I would rather it be a little less than perfect when rap bolting anchors and have it more ideal when on lead and a bit sketched. Dingus - I also really like the trad and sport examples that had me laughing good this morning with my coffee, nice way to start the day.
Jack, that is an awesome pile, enough to get me excited. However it looks like your bolting next to a perfectly good crack! :)
thanks everyone for all the input. This is a great. Never thought I would head up a thread like this.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Nov 30, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
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For now I love my Dewalt 18V hammer drill. It has placed over one thousand bolts and is still running strong. Very light and compact. Great for 3/8 to 1/2 holes. Cost around 300.00 for the drill, charger, battery, case. What is cool is that additional batteries are only $50 each and the lithium are $80 each. Additional batteries for some of the bigger drills cost $280 and up for each. My 18V is a Hammer drill version, not a drill/hammer. New battery power gets qty 10 bolts in granite 3/8 x 4" summer, 6 bolts winter.
I used to use a 24V Bosch Bulldog which was wired with two 12V gel cell batteries. On one charge we drilled over 75 bolts. Gel cells at a battery store are relatively cheap compared to new mfg drill batteries.
For super anchor bolt holes 3/4" and over with depths to 18" I use a 36V Hilti.
Bolt on! Marty
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