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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:07am PT
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I love the "doublespeak" that states the concern for the health and welfare of the protestors is why we needed to pepperspray, billyclub and rubber bullet them.
OCCUPY POLICE STATIONS!
F*#K THE BROWNSHIRT FACISTS!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:21am PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:06am PT
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It should not be forgotten that this act of using pepper spray is a source of great joy to the protesters.
I have been down to OWS sites, and have watched a number of confrontations on live video. Unfailingly, the protesters are as rude, provoking, and threatening as they think they can get away with, plus a little more.
Their goal is to provoke violence. They carry many many video cameras. I have seen things that I was personally at edited to appear considerably different.
They likely have provoked an incident that will result in damage to police careers (part of the 99%), and damage to the Chancellor's career (likely quite sympathetic to OWS).
They are turning the police against them, nationally. They are turning the Universities, a great natural ally, against them.
Why are Universities a TARGET? They are not part of corporations, nor of corrupt gov't. This is very sad.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:51am PT
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This is how the protests of the 1960's started. I'm guessing that soon,
the establishment will be wishing that the demonstrators could be
contained only to the campuses.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:48am PT
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Ken M,
Your post is surprising and upsetting considering 1) how heavily armed the police are compared to the students, and 2) how there was absolutely, positively nothing they did to provoke that type of violence.
IF you consider it necessary to have police present at this type of demonstration, they could have, especially and the UC Davis campus, kept their distance.
The fact that the police show up and get in the face of the protesters is a provocation in and of itself.
Ironic that the same people who are calling for a small government or to get the government out of just about everything, are the same people who agree with police violence of this type.
Honest question, there were a few cases of police brutality at peaceful Tea Party rallies, did you make the same comments about Tea Partiers provoking the violence?
Reading your post one would think that you would even accuse even Gandhi of hopping that his peaceful marches would turn violent.
These peaceful protests reveal a system and a strategy that was already there, just under the surface.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:48am PT
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"I am the sort of young faculty member, like many of my colleagues, this campus needs. I am an asset to the University of California at Davis."
i'm so wonderful...i'm an associate professor of the english department; you're just a chancellor of an entire university...i read books and publish my non-sensical ideas in obscure journals published by other english professors; you just run a university and consume your time with ever-tightening budgets...i organize protests, encouraging kids to neglect their studies and provoke authority (i even hope to score some activist sex from naive undergrads like my geriatrically juvenile '60 refugee mentors boast about); you bray about student safety and maintaining the academic integrity of this fascist institution that i'm forced to work for because i lack any skills that might be conducive to gainful employment in the real world, as demonstrated by my rambling, redundant, simple-minded, and astoundingly self-laudatory diatribe that, in my delusion of self-importance, i actually published in a forum not limited to bitter academics...now, if you'll excuse me, i'm going down to the ows campsite to troll for co-eds
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:50am PT
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STFU
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:54am PT
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bookworm,
What skills do you have to justify your job (if you have one)?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't with someone like you, right?
You sh#t on those that don't have a job and then turn right around and sh#t on those that do?
Have not read a post from you in the same vein with regard to the NBA strike/lockout. Why is that? If you think an English professor at one the USA's top universities is useless, then you must think NBA players are even more useless than useless.
Funny, you talk about the right to bear arms in order to be able to rise up against the US government if it ever slides towards tyranny, and yet here we are, students and faculty at a university bravely rising up and yet you sh#t on them?
Where' the patriotism you so adamantly demand in others? Must be hidden behind the badge of partisan hypocrisy that you wear so proudly.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 08:41am PT
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"Have not read a post from you in the same vein with regard to the NBA strike/lockout. Why is that? If you think an English professor at one the USA's top universities is useless, then you must think NBA players are even more useless than useless."
huh?
are you equating the nba lockout with ows? actually, i think professional athletes who complain about working conditions that place them solidly in the 1% do not deserve any sympathy (i do have sympathy for the nfl players who sought pensions for players who suffered career-ending injuries or injuries that manifest later but are a direct result of their jobs); but, yes, i do think it's a sign of our society's misplaced values that these athletes are paid so much money...and i think millionaire actors and rock stars who claim "solidarity" with the 99% are only half as idiotic (since doing so clearly bolsters their careers) as the brainless protesters who continue to praise/worship them (i.e. michael moore)
actually, i'm an english teacher...in a public high school...this weekend, like most weekends, i will spend about 6-8 hours grading papers, trying to give my students the skills they will need to succeed in whatever career they choose: critical thinking and coherent writing...my colleagues who support ows don't even assign essays or, if they do, don't critique them; rather, they assign "service awareness" projects and ask the kids to make posters and express how they feel
that "associate professor" claims the students should be allowed to determine what form their protests take...you don't see anything dangerous in that? the fact is, the chancellor is NOT denying them freedom of speech or freedom to gather; she is placing limitations (which scotus has ruled, repeatedly, institutions are permitted to do) on these rights to ensure they do not interfere with the rights of others--like students who want to attend class
one positive thing that may come of this: that associate professor may soon learn the value of respectful disagreement with one's boss when he finds himself out of a job in an increasingly shrinking job market for associate english professors
and i believe in my right to protect myself from a government that is trying to take away my rights, but i don't believe i have the right to provoke the government into "taking away my rights" (which the police/chancellor are not doing) then complain, cry, or retaliate when they enforce the laws/rules that i am breaking
and, as others have pointed out, the ows anger is misdirected...why are they protesting the universities? or wall street? or private citizens? the government takeover of the student loan industry is the cause of increased tuition costs...the government cooperation and bailout of wall street is the cause of the financial distress...and private citizens who work their asses off (or who inherit wealth from relatives who worked their asses off) are not responsible for anyone else being unemployed; in fact, rich people employ poor people
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:26am PT
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I thought Nathan Brown posted here on ST as NFB.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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"an eloquent text"
such praise for such drivel is a damning indictment of america's education system...i'd give that letter a C, and i teach 9th graders; he'd get an F in my ap lit class...if i had a kid at uc davis, i'd demand a full tuition refund...those students ought to be protesting the incompetence of their professors--something the chancellor is actually responsible for...brown comes across as a petulant child encouraging the uc students to throw temper tantrums...he's supposed to be an adult and a scholar...he ought to encourage those students to read alexander hamilton, john adams, henry david thoreau, mlk to grasp the true essence of civil disobedience, and he might inform his students that hamilton, adams, etc., literally risked their lives for their cause--that is if he's even aware of who these men were; i'm guessing his syllabus includes selected works of tupac, jay-z, ice-t, sista soldja and maybe a little csn for old times' sake
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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Bookworm..I'm sure you could do a better job than that UC Davis english teacher...Maybe he will be let go creating possible employment for you...? I'm sure your critical thinking skills would go over big at the university level..? RJ
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
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Given his penchant for ball licking and sperm gargling for the overlords of the 1% it is tremendously hard to believe that Ol' BrainWorm is a public school teacher. Public education and public school teachers are at the absolute bottom of the republiCAN'Ts value list. Teachers are abused and abased like no other group in America by the political shills of the GOP. And yet Wormy want's to defend the 1% at all costs. Working in direct opposition to your own (and your students) best interests is a clear indication of an ignorant WallMart shopper.
Your veracity is in doubt. Unless of course you actually teach "Intelligent Design" in some fundamentalist Christian church school.
Dude SHOW US THE TEACHING CERTIFICATE!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 20, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Why are Universities a TARGET? They are not part of corporations, nor of corrupt gov't. This is very sad.
yeah.
the remarkable thing about the occupy wall street protests in downtown (i.e.business and banking) settings was the way that the provided a venue for folks across the political spectrum to join on the few things that they could agree on.
i hate seeing them move onto uc campuses. ultra-conservatives in california already see the uc as a 1% elitist institution run by the jews, launching tv protests whose effect is to identify uc with hedge funds and bernie madoff is not going to help generate sympathy (and funding) for a system already under siege.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
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I don't think there is anything more constitutionally protected than what the OWS folks are doing.
Speaking, assembling and petitioning the government for redress.
Almost the FULL first amendment right there. Throw in a few folks praying and it would be.
Takes a law degree and tons of educated BS to get around a simple paragraph.
These pictures and the attempts of our government to use force to stop them are a clear form of totalitarianism.
We applaud the Arab spring but we torture you publicly if you try it here.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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Well Sully, you can teach them about George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, the rule of law and what the constitution is yourself. At least they'll learn about Martin Luther King at University.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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Is that true about pepper spray being a vegetable?
I don't know. Maybe I need to go to skool.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
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SOP for law enforcement and propagandists.
Demonize, and accuse the opposition of sexual perversions. Very Historically documented and often effective technique.
Skip please continue with your illustrative demonstration of Goebbels pioneering works.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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Nice touch adding in the disabled bit.. I reccommend a bit of tweaking.. add a photo of an adorable cutely dressed blonde child. Prefferable surrounded by learing darker haired or skinned individuals..
You have much to learn my young fascist.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
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Universities are being targeted??
WTF?!?!?
Universities provide a safe place for students to demonstrate. Universities encourage free speech. Well, obviously not so much now....unless you're not on the "wrong side."
It's really disturbing to hear people who blame the victims. I wonder if white people blamed the violence against blacks simply due to their skin color??
Yet today, we praise people like Rosa Parks and MLK for their courageous acts of civil disobedience.
If the violence committed by the police continues, sh#t is going to get REAL.
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Kevmn
Gym climber
Snob Franpsycho
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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Wow, I figured climbers would have a better sense too see through all the media fact twisting and moulding of events to suit a particular agenda.
I read through all that crap and that's not what happened. These media sources are playing you sparking your anger and outrage. Free speech is a wonderful thing and needs to be protected and exercised or course. But what these news sources are doing is not free speech. They are purposefully manipulating the truth and reporting on false "facts" to push people in a certain direction.
As a credible news source, they should have to check their sources with "facts" that can be backed up. The media needs to be held accountable for running false information like this.
Here's the facts as I was present for much of this ridiculousness and some friends of mine were so close to the action, they caught a little pepper in the breeze.
These protesters were asked to remove their little shanty tent town three days prior to this incident. They had THREE days to comply. They were not asked to stop protesting. Only to relocate their protests to a more appropriate area where another large group was already set up. Where they were was an area that was highly disruptive to students.
Most of the Davis students packed up and left but some protesters (sitters) from outside the campus decided they would come in and resist.
The campus police showed up and asked the group to disperse and remove the tent city or they would be forced to do so. The police talked to the protesters and tried to persuade them to move peacefully. Officials from the school who support their cause came out and asked that they relocate peacefully. Protest organizers even suggested that it would be best if they moved. This all went on for three hours at a great expense to the already financially strapped school.
A dozen or so students had packed up and left but a group of mostly non students intent on resisting any authority for any reason locked arms and sat there shouting at the campus police.
This went on for hours while the police pleaded for them to just move. At one point I saw several officers trying to physically break up the group by prying their arms apart. The protesters were spitting kicking and elbowing the police in defiance. I saw this with my own eyes.
Instead of beating the sh#t out of them with batons to break them up, the police backed off and spent another hour deciding what they were going to do. At that point I got bored and left but apparently what happened was the police got permission to deploy pepper spray in an attempt to avoid physically breaking up the group.
Now remember, these protesters "were" breaking the law because they were on private property and asked to relocate. Several of the protesters were also guilty of battery on an officer for spitting and kicking the officers.
The police once again pleaded with the protesters and told them what they were about to do. They gave them ten minutes to reconsider. At that point the officers pushed the crowd back to a safe distance, pleaded once again then gave them several quick, light blasts of pepper. They did not hose them down as one report stated.
Shortly after the pepper was deployed, the group peacefully broke up. Police ushered them over to an area they had set up where they had wash stations with running water, towels and medical personnel on hand.
That's exactly what happened, no bullsh#t, no buttering the facts.
Now tell me, what the hell were the police supposed to do?
They were disrupting students in class, blocking walkways and needed to be removed.
Most of the students I saw were pretty upset with this particular group, and almost everyone is an occupy supporter.
What should the police have done and still be able to maintain order?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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Americans are stupid and then they're even stupider when they see cops.
In more harsher countries you'll just get beaten harder or shot.
Cops are programmed to act a certain way according to time and circumstance.
Idiots expect them to act their way.
Idiots then get beaten and complain. Hahaha
When you protest and stand in their way you better be ready to take their stick or else fight back.
Instead you get nothing but whinny bitches .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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OK joe can you update us on the status of our efforts to smear OWS?
Yes sir! We have procured at great expense videos that portray the opposition as racist, anti-semites.
We have managed to single out of over 100,00 individuals a couple of sexual predators.
Being that approx 10% of the general population uses marijuana regularly it has been substantially easier to paint them as drug users.
The whisper campaigns of course do not need any actual examples just a few national mouthpeices like FOX News and such.
We are making headway Mein Fuhrer
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
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Disturbing the peace includes such actions as fighting in public, disturbing
another with loud unreasonable noise, or using offensive words in public
which are likely to provoke a violent reaction.
See: California Laws – Disturbing the Peace (California Penal Code Section 415)
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Some men you just can't reach.
So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it...
well, he gets it.
I don't like it any more than you men.
(The Captain from Cool Hand Luke)
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
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Fat, are you seriously saying that the next logical step would be hitting peaceful protestors, like the ones at UC Davis, with fists, flashlights and night sticks? I know that you often play the role of a troll and promote extreme views under the guise of your online persona, but do you seriously see the implementation of that type of force (pepper spray, hitting with fists, night sticks) as bing appropriate?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
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Did you hear the breaking news story?
Herman Cain is a cannibal who prefers the taste of white boy flesh?
And NuttyYahoo is a secret Muslim bent on destroying Israel.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
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Nov 20 1945 the Nuremburg trials started???
Ok Skipt.. I'll admit you lost me completely here.
That being the case I can only admit utter defeat and say i have no clue what you are talking about.
Care to elaborate so I might understand?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
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Newt Gingrich had a semi-successful sex change operation.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
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Skipper, they are protesting a great wrong in this country. Just because the goon squad of the ruling elite says move along does not delegitimize their protest or make them criminals. Speaking truth to power, whether on Wall Street or at the Berlin Wall is never easy.
Based on your undying support for the current power structure I would have to assume you felt that the Germans who tore down the wall were dangerous criminals and the Poles who stood up to the Soviet Union and brought it to it's knees were really dirty hippie communist criminals.
Wake up Dipt, these folks you so blindly condemn are the true patriots!
Is it the opposition to Roveian dogma that upsets you or is it just intelligence that frightens you?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
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A reasonable conversation eh?
Fair enough. I am of the opinion that overall the OWS has an overwhelming priortized right for their actions on public ground. That by the highest law of the land they are defacto following the law as long as they merely occupy chant hold signs set up tents, sleep, feed themselves and so on.
On private property this is not necessarily the case.
UC Davis is a publicly financed institution and is in a grey are somewhat. At the very least a prominent and effective area should be allocated for the protest and camp if so desired.
Perhaps these protesters crossed a reasonable line. However the police certainly could have done a much better job removing them.
Overall however this just appears to be more of the very unconstitutional actions of various authorities nationwide at ending a valid protest.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
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FIGHT BACK!
Goggles, helmets and a couple of layers of neoprene clothing to defeat the coward's tasers. This is OUR country not Wall Street's.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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Idiots expect them to act their way.
Idiots then get beaten and complain. Hahaha
When you protest and stand in their way you better be ready to take their stick or else fight back.
Instead you get nothing but whinny bitches .....
werner, the folks in this slice of ows who actually are tacticians are hoping to provoke police violence-- that's the point of this slice of the protests. (no, this doesn't include all or necessarily even a majority of the protesters, most of whom don't think tactically let alone strategically or the various folks in the commentariet.)
the point is to provoke police violence which in turn forces the audience to take a position, for or against, thus dividing and polarizing. the theory is that polarization will generate sympathy for the protestors.
that theory didn't work well in 1968, but it seems to have a life of its own.
the weird thing is that such a huge chunk of those involved in the protests and many of those watching/commenting seem to be remarkably unaware of the tactical and strategic point to pushing confrontation over tents.
instead we get a lot of ignorant ranting about totalitarianism or weird sideways conspiracy stuff. the sort of sideshow of this thread is exactly why i was not in favor of ows moving onto college campuses. it invites all kinds of semi-psychotic babbling that then gets attached to universities, and especially public research universities, at the precise moment in which the very idea of a public research university is in trouble.
just a trainwreck.
but yeah, the most self-aware of the protestors who got hit or sprayed were hoping for precisely that outcome.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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The usual ST morons mouth off! No surprise there.
But, I am disappointed in fattrad who I thought was educated in the ways of the law and law enforcement. Use of pepper spray is "limited to controlling hostile or violent subjects". This was taken up in one of the tree hugger cases in which non-violent protestors had pepper spray applied to their forced-open eyes. I'm sure you looked at those videos from Davis. Whether you think the protestors are the highest form of patriot or dumb misguided spoiled rich kids, I think you would have to agree that they were completely passive and did not present a hostile or violent threat.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1332957.html
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Ahwahnee Bartender
Big Wall climber
Fog Town
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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I like the police and the job that they are doing. F*#k you guys. More pepper spray in the face of all you ass holes. God willing.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
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OK so you have pointed out that some Neo-Nazi group thinks they will have a chance to benefit from the OWS movement.
LOL They are as always a deluded bunch of folks.
--------------
Regardless how the general public feels about OWS (and I too have some disagreements with it) The Constitution clearly supports their general efforts.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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The 1% is not petitioning for redress of grievances.. the only form of assembly and freedom of speech specifically described as protected in the First Amendment.
SO this suggests that what OWS is doing is especially protected and supported by the Founders.
One might easily argue that the founders specifically felt that this type of action is of the highest priority when there are conflicts between competing freedoms of expression.
Infact they made it protected from any law that might abridge this right.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
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The Chancellor Katehi had the balls to walk out there in front of the students and everyone last night so she gets my kudos.
I hope she doesn't get fired. People are allowed to make mistakes.
She didn't know the cops were gonna do what they did.
The poser English professor is way homo.
Some Gandhi poser all while supporting violent industrialized slaughterhouses.
He's probably eating a burger right now.
Americans are so stupid .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
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OK I retract the Goebles and other Nazi comparisons. But I substitute and double down on general totalitarianism.
Actually i will continue with the Goebbels comparison but in his capacity as a master and pioneer of modern propaganda. Not his specific political allegiances.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
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Those of you condemning the OWS protesters who are exercising their constitutional rights would surely have like wise opposed the brave patriots fighting against slavery or for women's suffrage or against the proliferation of nuclear weapons. History has repeatedly proven your side wrong. It will do so again. Your Rove/Limbaugh approved NON-sense about protesters being violent is in stark opposition to reality. As has become common the COPS are provoking and instigating the violence.
Sieg Heil you un-American bastards!
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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So your point is that if several distasteful foreign or domestic group or nations shows verbal support for a given domestic protest then it is OK to suspend that groups constitutional rights?
You say it is OK for a Foreign Enemy to dictate the rights of American citizens???
That is your Logic??
Hey look at that I opened this up to you accusing the OWS of being made of Illegal immigrants..
Get on it.. you missed that opportunity so far.
I mean you have called them sexual criminals, Disabled Abusers, and Borderline Traitors..
Your missing a few other ways to marginalize them.. stop being so lazy. Your propaganda still has some weaknesses.. Shore it up!!!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
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PROOF SKIPT?????
Your opinion is NOT proof.
HERMAN CAIN DINES ON WHITE FETUSES with 3 million dollar diamond encrusted silverware..
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
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You're stupid.
Of course the cops are going to be violent.
You're idiots to think otherwise.
If you're gonna sit there and not leave when ordered you're gonna get the nightstick up your a*#.
Quit yer whining and suck it up. Ya knew when they showed up yer gonna get it whether it was right or wrong.
When you fight you'll get a bloody nose.
Bunch a pussies .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
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Yeah pussies like Ghandi.
"There are many causes I am willing to die for. None that I am willing to kill for."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
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Hey Werner, what if some of the protesters were in wheelchairs?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:03pm PT
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Like I said when you get into these kinds of conflicts sh'it happens just like war.
You have to expect it.
The whole occupy movements philosophy is good but in the processes ugly sh'it is going to happen.
It's inevitable and expected.
Protect yourself and if you're in the midst of it you better be ready to take the hit.
It's just how it's always been.
Stupid Americans .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
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Yeah skip everyone should just bow down and do what they are told by unconstitutional authority.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
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eat the rich.
sh#t, we put a stack of flaming lumber across the SP tracks in Davis back in 72 and the cops are still lookin for us,
these punks nowadays, all they can do is sit in the quad?
drop a deuce on a rich persons lawn, if everybody does that, then i don't what, maybe a hep C outbreak in beverly hills if were lucky,
i use pepper spray for mouthwash, and i have a steel plate in my head, so the pigs are gonna have to use excessive force to bring me down, which will result in a hefty lawsuit that will make me a 1 percenter, then i can laugh at all the people i use to support,
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
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Skipt has a right to bow down and do what he is told by unconstitutional authority.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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Werner, I would doubt that the protesters are under any delusion that the COPS will respect their human or Constitutional rights. Speaking Truth to Power is a dangerous and messy business.
What is your point? Should all the protesters simply go home because the COPS said to? Should they just meekly comply with the Corporate confiscation of America? Werner, what IS worth fighting for. Do you give up on a rescue because the victim might die? Or do you fight with all you have to do what is right?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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I seriously doubt these dupes were even Davis students.
Anyone stupid enough to believe he can prevail in a street fight against the police isn't college material.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
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Skipt dines on white fetuses with his love interest Herman Cain!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
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Locker....What if some of the OWS were on life support in a bed..?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
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Anyone stupid enough to believe this was a street fight against the police isn't college material.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
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^^^ Exactly ^^^
Chaz, what's it like being a whore for the man?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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notice that the campus police were not involved,
there used to be a pig on the uc davis police force named robert refer, black dude, used to eat at Sambos on E street every night at 10.
ordered a sambos special, which is a lovely breakfast at an affordable price, featuring 1 egg, cooked just the way you like it, 2 strips of bacon and three delicious sambo cakes, all for $1.99.
coffee extra.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
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Skip, all your talk of the Constitution and going to court do not hold water if our country has been taken over from the inside. and it has been. Wake up.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
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It appears Skipt's copy of the constitution is missing a few pages.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
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Herman Cain shares a meal of white fetuses with Skipt. It's all the news.
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
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I love how simple my life in Canada is.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
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Are people on U.C. campus' allowed to exercise their Second Amendment right?
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Bad Climber
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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While I sympathize on many points that the OWS'ers declare, the movement doesn't seem to have a coherent message. At least during the 60's and 70's there was the unifying them of getting us out of Vietnam. Now it's all volunteer military, so the crowds don't seem to care about Americans dying daily on foreign soil, which makes me sad.
I know that one point of contention is the out-of-control cost of a college education. Fair enough. Why the hell aren't those crowds at various and sundry UC's protesting the hell out of executive pay and bloated salaries across the whole UC/CSU systems? The number of hugely fat--like $200K+ salaries--is mind boggling. At the college where I teach, we keep cutting classes but ADDING various executive level positions. Our chancellor makes close to $300k a year! Arrrrgh! Pepper spray the administrators!
BAd
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
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Are people on U.C. campus' allowed to exercise their Second Amendment right? Only if they are attending a TeaBagger reloading rally and threatening opponents with bull's eyes.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:32pm PT
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Why the f*#k can't we complain the way you did? Because Skipt you are guilty of cannibalism.
You are really into clowns and little boys Skipt how do they taste compared to white fetuses?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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I though he did other unspeakable things to babies. Just like those OWS protesters.
Beware the sword cuts both ways...
fortunately this is just tongue in cheek..
not those cheeks!!
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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rich conservatives only worry about one thing, losing all their money.
so when they see threat to their wealth, they get all upset and insecure,
next thing ya know, peaceful kids are gettin sprayed.
don't disrupt the machine, even if it is screwed up.
you know how much money UC pulls in every year?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
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Too busy eating fetuses to notice.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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payed $212.50 a quarter back in 73.
now, 30 grand a year,
so yes, give less money to uc,
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
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Unlike Skipt who has apparently all day to sit around spewing his fascist diatribes.. I must go work for a customer now. Us small business owners try to keep busy ya know.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
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$30,000 a year?
I'll bet 99% of the students there that day wanted the education they're paying for ( or going into debt for ), without having their education disrupted by a bunch of lunatics.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
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where is Bob Dylan when you need him?
CSN&Y?
bring back the protest song,
call off the picnic, the cops are here
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:48pm PT
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Life begins with the first twinkle of the eye...
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
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Talkin' Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues
I saw it advertised one day
Bear Mountain picnic was comin’ my way
“Come along ’n’ take a trip
We’ll bring you up there on a ship
Bring the wife and kids
Bring the whole family”
Yippee!
Well, I run right down ’n’ bought a ticket
To this Bear Mountain Picnic
But little did I realize
I was in for a picnic surprise
Had nothin’ to do with mountains
I didn’t even come close to a bear
Took the wife ’n’ kids down to the pier
Six thousand people there
Everybody had a ticket for the trip
“Oh well,” I said, “it’s a pretty big ship
Besides, anyway, the more the merrier”
Well, we all got on ’n’ what d’ya think
That big old boat started t’ sink
More people kept a-pilin’ on
That old ship was a-slowly goin’ down
Funny way t’ start a picnic
Well, I soon lost track of m’ kids ’n’ wife
So many people there I never saw in m’ life
That old ship sinkin’ down in the water
Six thousand people tryin’ t’ kill each other
Dogs a-barkin’, cats a-meowin’
Women screamin’, fists a-flyin’, babies cryin’
Cops a-comin’, me a-runnin’
Maybe we just better call off the picnic
I got shoved down ’n’ pushed around
All I could hear there was a screamin’ sound
Don’t remember one thing more
Just remember wakin’ up on a little shore
Head busted, stomach cracked
Feet splintered, I was bald, naked . . .
Quite lucky to be alive though
Feelin’ like I climbed outa m’ casket
I grabbed back hold of m’ picnic basket
Took the wife ’n’ kids ’n’ started home
Wishin’ I’d never got up that morn
Now, I don’t care just what you do
If you wanta have a picnic, that’s up t’ you
But don’t tell me about it, I don’t wanta hear it
’Cause, see, I just lost all m’ picnic spirit
Stay in m’ kitchen, have m’ own picnic . . .
In the bathroom
Now, it don’t seem to me quite so funny
What some people are gonna do f’r money
There’s a bran’ new gimmick every day
Just t’ take somebody’s money away
I think we oughta take some o’ these people
And put ’em on a boat, send ’em up to Bear Mountain . . .
For a picnic
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
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Chaz, your statement makes me think of the outcry from the tea party at town hall meetings here in NH leading up to the midterm elections.
Shouting, spitting mad, throbbing forehead veined, red faced people disrupting what was meant to be a meet the candidate session.
They are still the most immature people I've ever encountered.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 20, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
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Well, I guess this story must begin
That fateful day a way back when
I decided I should have a credit card
So I filled out this application
Listed all my recommendations
Sent it off in the mail
And in a month or so the mailman brought me my brand new charge-all card
Better than checks, safer than money, and not near as dirty!
Well it laid around for a couple of days
And finally I thought "What the hay?
Why not see if this thing'll really work!"
So I went down to my favorite store
Picked out three or four shirts or more
A pair of pants and a strip-ed tie
And the man came by and said:
"Yes Sir, cash or charge?"
I said: "Just put it on my credit card
Write that dude up! Ahhh, convenient!"
Now I put that card away in a drawer
And I never charged one dollar more
Then one day in the mail I got this bill
Typed on a card all full of holes
That says do not staple, bend or fold
Was the astronomical figure of thirty-two hundred dollars and forty-two cents... When!
There's been a mistake!
So I got on the phone... "Hello? Hello?"
I got Mr. Black and Mr. Brown
And then I got the run-a-round
'Til finally Mr. Green came on the line
I said "Sir, this may be hard to take
But your computer's made a mistake
It says I owe more money than I've ever seen"
And he said "People like you make mistakes
Computers do not lie
Send us the bread. PDQ!"
Well this had just about done me in
So I grabbed that computer card again
The one with all those holes punched out so nice
And I threw it on the floor and I stomped it twice
And then I whipped out my pocket knife
And punched out a few more holes where there hadn't been no holes before
And I bent it double...
Stapled it across the end...
Drove my car over it...
Stick that up your computer!
I sent her back in and never heard no more
'Til one day the mailman came to the door
With a special delivery from the charge-all place
Inside was a note from Mr. Green
Said: "We ran your card through our machine
And it tells us that you overpaid your bill!
Enclosed is a check payable to you...
For nine thousand dollars!
We appreciate your business"
Well I got back on the phone again, called Mr. Green
And he was I,
And I said: "I think there is something you should know"
Then I told him what the computer had done
And I said "Just remember, you're the one...
That told me computer's do not lie
Thank you!
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
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"an eloquent text" - such praise for such drivel is a damning indictment of america's education system...i'd give that letter a C, and i teach 9th graders.."
good thing they don't let you teach 10th graders. ha ha You'd do some real damage to their growing minds at that point.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
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Conservatives who don't see how the government has been bought by big business and elite money and yet don't see how they have also been screwed by the current system are cuckholders. There is no such thing as "Big Government" that needs to be cut, but corporations need to be deregulated. It's all the same thing. The regulations are often designed by the big corporations to squeeze out the little competitors that can't afford to comply with them.
Some good posts by degaine.. thank you
Amazing how little respect for peaceful protest there is among some. What do you expect? That if people assembled to protest the usurpment of our democracy by big money that they should all just say shucks and go home when the police come and tell them to go away! What kind of wimp sauce would that be? The British would still be ruling if that was the case and the abuse of the British over their own citizens who came here was mild compared to where we are heading.
Here's a positive step that I'd support %100. I'll believe corporations are citizens and people when Texas executes one.
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/11/18/372361/rep-deutch-introduces-occupied-constitutional-amendment-to-ban-corporate-money-in-politics/
Peace
Karl
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 20, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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ok, it was the campus cops, that makes sense,
wanna be pigs.
power corrupts.
but uc davis cops are pretty cool from what i remember, not too much going on in davis,ca as far as crime is concerned.
just a town full of rich students.
this is my biggest concern>
Lee Pockriss (Lee Julian Pockriss) - Died 11-14-2011 in Connecticut, U.S. - Illness ( Novelty - Pop ) Born 1-20-1924 in Brookly, NY, U.S. - Songwriter - (Co-wrote, "Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini" and "Leader Of The Laundromat") -
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
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So all you great protestors,
When do you think life begins?
I mean do you stand with biology and science that says "life begins at conception?"
Or are you all anti-science and just like murdering babies?
Skip
Personally I "just like murdering babies".
Honestly Skipt your latent fundamentalism and xenophobic racism constantly screams from the shadows of your twisted pseudo logic. Believe what You will but don't impose Yours on Others.
Having been intimately involved with my two children from conception through delivery my honest opinion is that life begins at birth when that new creation can breathe, suck and swallow on their own. Before that they are really more like parasites with potential. If you have the absolutist's belief that abortions are murder and women do not have free choice regarding their own bodies then I ask you in all sincerity how different are you than the extremists of other faiths and other countries that you so adamantly condemn?
Actually, don't bother Skippy. I don't expect you to even understand the question.
What I do expect is that you will pull some mistaken out of context nonsense out of this post and spew doodoo like you do.
It is a good thing that most of the world's intelligent believe that life begins at birth. Otherwise your fetus eating would be punishable as culinary gouache-ness.
Skipt why do you and Herman Cain approve of murder for dinner?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
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Thank God for the police brutality to show folks where we really stand with our alleged first amendment rights and ability to take protest to the streets. Blessings on the protesters who bravely take the sticks for our country.
For those who condemn the protesters, the same will happen to you if you take issue with the government/powers that be. Are you really so happy with our state of affairs? Perhaps a change in your fortunes would change your mind.
People sleep until their comfort is threatened, Then they wake up. Prepare for change as it's inevitable. The world economy has already been trashed and looted, the band-aids are just keeping us unaware until it's too late
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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So when we have been screaming that Obama is in bed with Wall Street, bailing them out with trillions of dollars, and it needs to stop....
Where the f*#k have you been?
Skip
I'm right with you on that bro. What's your beef with OWS then? They are saying the same thing. Leave it to the liberals to do your own protesting for you and you get sore just because they are "The other side"
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
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Skipt you ignoRANT whore. Lame accusations make only you look like monkeypoo.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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Gil Scott-Heron famously sang "The revolution will not be televised". He was right; it will be YouTubed. ha ha
What a difference hundreds of digital camera's make. No one would believe what goes down if they didn't have photographic evidence.
Back in the day - anti-war demonstrates were regularly beaten shitless (two cops pulled my friends legs apart while a third wailed on his nuts with a baton) but the comfortable middle class just couldn't believe that such things would happen in America.
But now the tide's turned a bit. Can't deny your own eyes. Even my 80 year old mom immediately wrote a letter demanding the Chancellor's resignation after seeing the video.
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw&feature=related
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
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skipt wrote:
So when we have been screaming that Obama is in bed with Wall Street, bailing them out with trillions of dollars, and it needs to stop....
Where the f*#k have you been?
I've been there from the beginning. Where have you been?
You also need a history lesson, the bailout occurred during Bush's term, not Obama. Perhaps you were referring to the stimulus packing. In any case you wrote bailout, and then used and expletive, so you most certainly meant bailout. In which case I'll state again, that was proposed, voted on and signed during the Bush administration, prior to Obama taking office.
The problem is one of binary thinking (a carry over from GW's "you're either with us or against us"?). No worries you're not the only Republican (or Democrat for that matter) to exhibit this kind of thinking.
You've divided the world into to teams, yours (Republicans) and the other (Democrats). From this point of view you incorrectly assume that if someone criticizes your team they must by default be for the other team.
Anyway, I can't write that I started criticizing Obama on day one of his presidency, but less than one year in it was pretty clear that: 1)He was going to continue GW's foreign policy approach, although softer around the edges in discourse, and 2) He was never going to stand up and push the issues he campaigned on, instead capitulating to Republican demands even before they make them.
I've heavily criticized Obama, if you don't believe me, just read my post history.
What I don't understand are 2 things:
1) Why you are complaining when Obama is clearly governing from the center right. He's a Republican's wet dream, implementing conservative policies but receiving no criticism from the Democrats.
2) Why you think criticizing the right = support for Obama.
Obama is clearly in Wall Street's pocket, just look at who he appointed - one need look no further than Geitner (of course, so is most of the Republican party except for maybe Ron Paul) - or the weak regulatory infrastructure to ensure that Wall Street and the banks return to playing what should be a supporting role to business and industry.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 20, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
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The nearly proper way to conduct a public demonstration.
1 stay on the sidewalk but keep moving
2. have a sign with a message
and
3. no sleep'n in tents, no poop'n, no frack'n, no do'n drugs, no murder.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
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Clearly CornHole has NO future in Graphic arts.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
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Why weren't all the haters telling the Tea Party folks to go get a job??
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
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Every time you masturbate god kills a kitten.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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MeOw
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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bookworm wrote:
"Have not read a post from you in the same vein with regard to the NBA strike/lockout. Why is that? If you think an English professor at one the USA's top universities is useless, then you must think NBA players are even more useless than useless."
huh?
You really don’t get it ?
You wrote this :
that i'm forced to work for because i lack any skills that might be conducive to gainful employment in the real world,
I interpreted the above to mean “useless” to society in terms of utility. I used the NBA example to point out another crowd of people whose area of employ is also “useless” in terms of utility to society.
Your statement carries even more irony given that you are an English teacher.
bookworm wrote:
actually, i think professional athletes who complain about working conditions that place them solidly in the 1% do not deserve any sympathy (i do have sympathy for the nfl players who sought pensions for players who suffered career-ending injuries or injuries that manifest later but are a direct result of their jobs); but, yes, i do think it's a sign of our society's misplaced values that these athletes are paid so much money...
I agree with you with regard to the above (anyone want to join me for a couple of hours of ice skating in hell tomorrow?)
bookworm wrote:
and i think millionaire actors and rock stars who claim "solidarity" with the 99% are only half as idiotic (since doing so clearly bolsters their careers) as the brainless protesters who continue to praise/worship them (i.e. michael moore)
2 honest questions:
1) Can one agree with / praise the message without necessarily having high regards for the messenger?
2) Other than anecdotal evidence, what proof do you have that the OWS protesters worship Michael Moore (or any other celebrity for that matter)?
bookworm wrote:
actually, i'm an english teacher...in a public high school...this weekend, like most weekends, i will spend about 6-8 hours grading papers, trying to give my students the skills they will need to succeed in whatever career they choose: critical thinking and coherent writing...
It’s so bizarre that you would sh#t on your own profession. Why did you do that? Do you realize that his choice of careers and his choice to write a letter to the chancellor asking for her resignation are two different things?
bookworm wrote:
my colleagues who support ows don't even assign essays or, if they do, don't critique them; rather, they assign "service awareness" projects and ask the kids to make posters and express how they feel
What do your colleagues’ choice of teaching techniques and the OWS protestors have to do with each other?
bookworm wrote:
that "associate professor" claims the students should be allowed to determine what form their protests take...you don't see anything dangerous in that? the fact is, the chancellor is NOT denying them freedom of speech or freedom to gather; she is placing limitations (which scotus has ruled, repeatedly, institutions are permitted to do) on these rights to ensure they do not interfere with the rights of others--like students who want to attend class
Those police officers would never have intervened in that manner if they did not have the green light to do so. If the chancellor had made it clear that the protestors were not to be brutalized in any way as long as the protestors remained peaceful (as they did), this never would have happened.
bookworm wrote:
and i believe in my right to protect myself from a government that is trying to take away my rights, but i don't believe i have the right to provoke the government into "taking away my rights" (which the police/chancellor are not doing) then complain, cry, or retaliate when they enforce the laws/rules that i am breaking
In the UCD case the protestors (students and other) were peacefully exercising their 1st amendment rights. What about that do you not understand?
A tea party member to a gun to a town hall meeting Obama was holding, not a peep from you then, yet you cry foul with the OWS peaceful protest at UCD?
Once again, you’re confusing 2 issues that should not be confused:
1) The act of peacefully protesting
2) The reason for the protest
It is possible to support #1 and to not agree with #2.
I supported the Tea Party’s right to protest even if I disagree with their reason.
bookworm wrote:
and, as others have pointed out, the ows anger is misdirected...
In continuing with my statement above, who cares? The issue with this thread is police brutality against peaceful protestors exercising their 1st amendment rights.
Are you really stating that the message must be focused, clear and in accordance with what you (bookworm) or “others” agree with in order to be able to exercise 1st amendment right?
That can’t be possible, so I’ll ask again, what do OWS protestors reasons (valid, misdirected, or whatever) for peacefully protesting have to do with being brutalized by the police?
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 20, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
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Pile-o - OWS's disgusting message of anarchy for anarchy's sake is not
something sane people attach themselves to.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
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Tried on any new bras lately, Corniss?
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
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Pile-o - since 99% of the country is annoyed at the OWS you all
have only 3 possible scenarios in your future-
1 -go home and be ignored.
2- conduct protests lawfully without
violating the civil rights of your fellow citizens and be ignored.
3- be arrested and ignored in a jail cell as you wash pepper spray out of
yer eyeballs.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
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Thanks Sully, I aim to please.
Edit: Neat, Lil Skippy learned how to post photos. Good on ya, fella.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:34pm PT
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At first it was Puppy Love
And then it got serious:
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
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But then, Republicans have long held hands, kissed, and bowed to foreigners"
Part of his "apology tour" when he tried to be President
SUCH an embarrassment, apologizing and bowing and kissing.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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"UC Davis Police Chief Annette Spicuzza told reporters Saturday that the decision to use the pepper spray was made at the scene. "The students had encircled the officers," she said. "They needed to exit. They were looking to leave but were unable to get out."
My favorite part of this chicken sh#t excuse was the videos clearly showing officers casually stepping over the line of sitting students shortly before spraying them. Clearly the powers that be would prefer to spin this as a necessary self defense. George Orwell would be proud.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
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And what's your point, Skipt?
I don't like that Benneton(or whichever company is using this campaign) is doing the same - these people are being diplomatic and following accepted cultural procedures; not a couple of guys on the down-low caught out(though I am pretty sure only one of the two is outwardly against homosexuality.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
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Your wit astounds me.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
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Sure am. I didn't want my name attached to the sh#t show it devolved into.
It's much more fun calling you out on someone else's thread skipper.
Read my above post to you and take it to heart. There is middle ground, you just seem unable to recognize that.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
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It ain't the cops. They're just doing their job. The problem lies with the people who hire the cops and give them marching orders.
The Nazi's at Nuremberg who participated in the genocide used the same defense. Yet, the Powers that be during that time didn't find that as a valid excuse.
Why should we?
The cops are human and they have the freedom to choose not to follow orders that violate the Constitution.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
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he kind specifically meant to find someone dumb enough to
respond.
Do me the favor of letting me know who you are if by chance our paths ever cross in the streets or at the crags. I would like to to look you in the eye and remind you of this statement, and see if you are so callous that you are not ashamed.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
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I've yet to see you concede a valid point made by someone with a differing opinion.
They have been presented to you in the past, and no, I'm not going to waste my time sifting through threads to cite one.
Edit: it seems as if Happie and I are on the same page.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
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Skipt you are smack dab in the middle ground of those enemies of the united states..
You are a clear enemy of the constitution of the United States of America.
You are a shining example of the answer to the question.. how can fascism happen?
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Kevmn
Gym climber
Snob Franpsycho
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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Apparently nobody read my earlier post or just chose to ignore it.
Obviously it is not in line with what you all prefer to believe.
I WAS THERE!
There is a place reserved for the occupy protesters near where these protesters were camped out.
Their camp was disruptive to the students in class rooms and set up right in a major walkway forcing students to walk off path and in the wet grass to go around. They were given three days to move a couple hundred yards to where the rest of the protesters are.
Those that refused (most not students at all) locked arms and were kicking, elbowing and spitting at the police. Coupled with the vulgar obscenities and threats toward the officers it was clear as day these particular protesters were not "non violent".
This sh#t went on for hours. All day in fact until the police had to revert to their obvious last choice. Which was using non lethal, non confrontational means to break up the hostile crowd. They could have just as easily physically removed the protesters with batons.
I've always supported the occupy movement as do most students at UC Davis.
These protesters were out of line and the police did their best to resolve the situation. That was my take of the whole ordeal as well as the opinions of the majority of students that were actually there.
What the media has reported and what you people are buying into is the purposeful deception and falsifying of facts to push a certain agenda.
I think these news sources should be accountable for printing known lies as facts.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
OMG the humanity of it all.. they had to walk on grass to get around the protest..
Dude you are on a CLIMBING forum..
lol
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
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Kinda funny how student debt lasts forever but Donald Trump can repeatedly go bankrupt
and the Government guarantees student loans %100 but lets the banks dole out the money at interest and NO RISK. Talk about a racket for big business
Peace
Karl
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
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You misunderstood my intention from the get go, accused
me of some slights to Gays and you don't even bother to mention it.
Ummm, no. I was not suggesting you were slighting gay people. But that's okay - go right on being whatever sort of human you are. You don't seem like a very happy one though, and I am sorry for you in that.
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Kevmn
Gym climber
Snob Franpsycho
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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No, they were chanting, yelling and using profanity at the top of their lungs just outside classrooms.
They had the walkways clogged up forcing many students to push their way through the mess or walk through a quickly forming mud pit to go around.
You totally missed the point and are way off base. It's obvious you know nothing about whats going on. It's pointless to argue with idiots so I'll refrain.
Point is, they were being disruptive to students and were asked to relocate. Instead of peacefully moving, they chose to provoke confrontation and incite violence then claim victimization.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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Kevmn
Yeah that's what it looks like.
These dumbsh'its here totally ignored everything you said since you were there as a witness.
This how it always is.
This forum is just total knee jerk reactionaries most of the time.
The other guy is lovegasoline as he lives in NYC and he's reliable source also.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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"^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
OMG the humanity of it all.. they had to walk on grass to get around the protest..
Dude you are on a CLIMBING forum..
lol "
Point is, its just as dishonest as what they are "protesting" against.
That is why the majority of Americans are sick of the BS. Why disrupt honest people working or going to class if you are truly protesting the divisiveness of America?
If you are honest about it, set up camp on the Washington Mall and K street. Then we might take the movement seriously.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:55pm PT
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The police did the right thing. Those sit in people were making noise and disrupting the heinously expensive education of the students.
It was a purposely planned sit whose only goal was to get some
video of police brutality which thankfully never happened. They (sit in) lost.
We won.
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Kevmn
Gym climber
Snob Franpsycho
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
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I support much of what this cause is about. But I know, with these tactics, the only thing they will accomplish is burning down their own cities. And at their and everybody else's expense. Except the 1% of course.
Werner's right, Stupid Americans.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
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Pile-o - since 99% of the country is annoyed at the OWS you all
have only 3 possible scenarios in your future-
Where is a shred of proof that "99% of the country is annoyed at the OWS".
And again your opinion or Rush's radio show are not "proof".
You talk out of your ass.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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I like Stich's Seurat.
LovesG,
isn't the kind of wealth distribution in that US map a fair representation of the distribution of intelligence and initiative in a free economy?
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 20, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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Felt like I wanted to do something. Sent some shirts. Hope it isn't too provocative.
I think he said something about letting their heads roll. Turning the other cheek seems a little easier to stomach. Definitely some wisdom. Maybe something like, the strength in meekness, when goodness recognizes injustice... always.
lawyers and their words
glad I never had to march for salt
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
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Skip....And your choice for president would have done a better job than Obama...? McCain -Palin i am assuming..? They lost the election by a landslide because America was fed up with the Cheney Bush dog and pony show and now you are proposing more of the same republican policies..? RJ
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
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Heroes or people that should have gotten a job?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
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Skip writes
You said we should all vote for the current clown in office. You said he
would fix all this. He didn't. You were wrong. Admit it.
I never said he'd fix anything, just that he was a better choice than the other fool.
Both parties are bought and paid for by big business and big money. That's why OWS is important. Until this equation changes, government and big money are the same thing. THey just try to pacify their base with lies and token laws about gay marriage or union rights cause they can only rig the vote so far.
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
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Anybody posted this yet?
What do you think? Are corporations REALLY people and do they have first ammendment rights to use huge money to get their way?
http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/11/18/372361/rep-deutch-introduces-occupied-constitutional-amendment-to-ban-corporate-money-in-politics/
In one of the greatest signs yet that the 99 Percenters are having an impact, Rep. Ted Deutch (D-FL), a member of the House Judiciary Committee, today introduced an amendment that would ban corporate money in politics and end corporate personhood once and for all.
Deutch’s amendment, called the Outlawing Corporate Cash Undermining the Public Interest in our Elections and Democracy (OCCUPIED) Amendment, would overturn the Citizens United decision, re-establishing the right of Congress and the states to regulate campaign finance laws, and to effectively outlaw the ability of for-profit corporations to contribute to campaign spending.
“No matter how long protesters camp out across America, big banks will continue to pour money into shadow groups promoting candidates more likely to slash Medicaid for poor children than help families facing foreclosure,” said Deutch in a statement provided to ThinkProgress. “No matter how strongly Ohio families fight for basic fairness for workers, the Koch Brothers will continue to pour millions into campaigns aimed at protecting the wealthiest 1%. No matter how fed up seniors in South Florida are with an agenda that puts oil subsidies ahead of Social Security and Medicare, corporations will continue to fund massive publicity campaigns and malicious attack ads against the public interest. Americans of all stripes agree that for far too long,
corporations have occupied Washington and drowned out the voices of the people. I introduced the OCCUPIED Amendment because the days of corporate control of our democracy. It is time to return the nation’s capital and our democracy to the people.”
This is what OWS inspired and can rally behind
Peace
Karl
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
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The problem I see with this is that you need a large difference between the bad guys (dictators of syria, lybia, Iran, Iraq, etc) and the good guys to justify going to war.
If you keep taking so many steps in their direction it will be even harder to convince everyone that the bad guys are different, or bad, so you should go to war. You might have to make reasons up, like WMD or something.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
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What does war have to do with this?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
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nothing
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
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The justification and stories you use for getting public on your side for war has always been stories of how bad the dictator is that you are trying to remove. (after putting him there)
When you start taking steps toward treating your own people violently for non-violent protests you start to make your reasons for war weak.
That's what it has to do with this. Watch the changes over the next 4-5 years and compare to how 'the land of the free' used to be. But like a boiling frog, you can't notice the changes if you watch the news every day.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Best post in the whole thread
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
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Okay Tooth, I think I got what you're saying. I'll share my perspective, which I think is the same.
Essentially, our government knows they're a bunch of crooks. So they project all their sh#t onto someone else and label that person as the "axis of evil." And then all the citizens of this country mindlessly follow. They don't even realize that their very own freedoms and liberties are being slowly eroded.
I think this best illustrates what I mean...
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apogee
climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:50am PT
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"In one of the greatest signs yet that the 99 Percenters are having an impact, Rep. Ted Deutch (D-FL), a member of the House Judiciary Committee, today introduced an amendment that would ban corporate money in politics and end corporate personhood once and for all.
Deutch’s amendment, called the Outlawing Corporate Cash Undermining the Public Interest in our Elections and Democracy (OCCUPIED) Amendment, would overturn the Citizens United decision, re-establishing the right of Congress and the states to regulate campaign finance laws, and to effectively outlaw the ability of for-profit corporations to contribute to campaign spending."
It's gonna take a helluva lot more than a cutely-named straw-amendment like that to convince me the OWS movement is making a dent in our corporate culture. Believe-you-me, I'd like to see the whole corporations-are-people concept go up in a Burning Man of flames, but this movement doesn't seem anywhere near that kind of tectonic movement.
This amendment looks like simple politics- a Florida Dem taking advantage of a trendy issue and trying to show his constituents that he's doing something in their interests, but knows full-well that it doesn't have a hope in hell.
That sounds pretty negative. I wish it luck.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 02:21am PT
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Kevmn wrote:
Point is, they were being disruptive to students and were asked to relocate.
That’s the whole point, to disrupt. Going out to an empty field near the primate research center would “miss the point” as you put it.
To get people’s attention peaceful protests are always disruptive.
Plus, you’re being disingenuous, the protestors brutalized by the police were at the quad: 1) an area specifically designed for students to congregate – that’s its purpose, and 2) occupying the quad, while highly visible to those on campus, hardly disrupts getting to class.
Kevmn wrote:
Instead of peacefully moving, they chose to provoke confrontation and incite violence then claim victimization.
It’s called civil disobedience
In addition, those sprayed and brutalized by police did not do anything, they just sat there. The only provocation was exercising their first amendment rights to free speech.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 21, 2011 - 03:17am PT
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that cop is gonna be sittin with the protesters in about 2 weeks.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 21, 2011 - 03:29am PT
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disrupting students, who are not protesting for fear of being deported,
"More than 560 students from the People's Republic of China now attend the University of California, Davis; 225 of them are freshmen paying nonresident tuition of $38,001 apiece – $22,878 more than the $15,123 a year for California residents.
They reflect China's new middle class, increased competition for slots at China's top universities and the growing interconnectedness between the two superpowers.
The globalization of the University of California, Davis, flows from Chancellor Linda Katehi's plan to add 5,000 more undergraduates – both California residents and nonresidents – by 2020.
The expansion of foreign students paying top dollar will provide millions in new revenue, stave off further cuts and help the university hire 300 new professors.
This fall UC Davis enrolled 1,662 foreign students, 720 of them undergraduates, generating about $16.5 million in nonresident tuition. They include 181 South Koreans, 121 from Hong Kong and 101 Taiwanese.
It's a trend playing out across the UC system and at colleges nationwide. In 2010, there were 671,616 foreign students studying at American universities. Students from China were the biggest group at 127,628, a 30 percent rise over 2009, according to the Institute of International Education.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2011 - 10:31am PT
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I went to a pre-thanksgiving diner last night at a friend's house in Davis near campus. My friend lets out rooms to students and as a result has picked up a huge following of young student acquaintances over the years (my friend is in her mid 70's). So 20 or 25 hungry college students show up for a free dinner - ha ha. At least 6 of them where part of the Occupy movement and on the scene when the spray-in-your-face sh#t came down. (by the way - one young girl ended up in the emergency room with a severe reaction to the pepper spray and consequent asthma attack). They were some of the nicest kids I've ever met. Young, intelligent, graceful (and I might say - in some cases - head turning beautiful). Gives one hopes for the future generation. It seems its always the best and the brightest that stick their necks out for justice.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 21, 2011 - 11:28am PT
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Nice kids, but they aren't very bright.
When the cops give you warning that they are going to use force if you stick around, only a fool would stay.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 21, 2011 - 11:37am PT
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When the cops give you warning that they are going to use force if you stick around, only a fool would stay.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 21, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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They sat there, and let the cops spray them, when they simply could have just left.
Seems pretty stupid to me.
BTW, they're not using pepper spray in Egypt. They're shooting 7.62 x 39mm Kalashnikov rounds at people.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 21, 2011 - 11:51am PT
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So was Kevnm (post copied below) the only one of you who were there and witnessed this? He saw it, isn't pissed off. In fact, he makes it sound like the police were very restrained and fair. He was there. Who else was there, and not actually guessing what was done from an out of context video clip or media spin who can confirm or deny Kennm here?
Nov 20, 2011 - 10:42am PT
Wow, I figured climbers would have a better sense too see through all the media fact twisting and moulding of events to suit a particular agenda.
I read through all that crap and that's not what happened. These media sources are playing you sparking your anger and outrage. Free speech is a wonderful thing and needs to be protected and exercised or course. But what these news sources are doing is not free speech. They are purposefully manipulating the truth and reporting on false "facts" to push people in a certain direction.
As a credible news source, they should have to check their sources with "facts" that can be backed up. The media needs to be held accountable for running false information like this.
Here's the facts as I was present for much of this ridiculousness and some friends of mine were so close to the action, they caught a little pepper in the breeze.
These protesters were asked to remove their little shanty tent town three days prior to this incident. They had THREE days to comply. They were not asked to stop protesting. Only to relocate their protests to a more appropriate area where another large group was already set up. Where they were was an area that was highly disruptive to students.
Most of the Davis students packed up and left but some protesters (sitters) from outside the campus decided they would come in and resist.
The campus police showed up and asked the group to disperse and remove the tent city or they would be forced to do so. The police talked to the protesters and tried to persuade them to move peacefully. Officials from the school who support their cause came out and asked that they relocate peacefully. Protest organizers even suggested that it would be best if they moved. This all went on for three hours at a great expense to the already financially strapped school.
A dozen or so students had packed up and left but a group of mostly non students intent on resisting any authority for any reason locked arms and sat there shouting at the campus police.
This went on for hours while the police pleaded for them to just move. At one point I saw several officers trying to physically break up the group by prying their arms apart. The protesters were spitting kicking and elbowing the police in defiance. I saw this with my own eyes.
Instead of beating the sh#t out of them with batons to break them up, the police backed off and spent another hour deciding what they were going to do. At that point I got bored and left but apparently what happened was the police got permission to deploy pepper spray in an attempt to avoid physically breaking up the group.
Now remember, these protesters "were" breaking the law because they were on private property and asked to relocate. Several of the protesters were also guilty of battery on an officer for spitting and kicking the officers.
The police once again pleaded with the protesters and told them what they were about to do. They gave them ten minutes to reconsider. At that point the officers pushed the crowd back to a safe distance, pleaded once again then gave them several quick, light blasts of pepper. They did not hose them down as one report stated.
Shortly after the pepper was deployed, the group peacefully broke up. Police ushered them over to an area they had set up where they had wash stations with running water, towels and medical personnel on hand.
That's exactly what happened, no bullsh#t, no buttering the facts.
Now tell me, what the hell were the police supposed to do?
They were disrupting students in class, blocking walkways and needed to be removed.
Most of the students I saw were pretty upset with this particular group, and almost everyone is an occupy supporter.
What should the police have done and still be able to maintain order?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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Shortly after the pepper was deployed, the group peacefully broke up. Police ushered them over to an area they had set up where they had wash stations with running water, towels and medical personnel on hand.
except in the video, shortly after the pepper spray is deployed, the cops are surrounded and are 'ushered' away...perhaps the above quoted didn't have a clear view through the face shield of his riot gear.
Chaz, I respect your right to an opinion...
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
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Skipt I respect your right to say any assinine thing you want. You're good at it and have made it your trademark. (edited)
Who I voted for is irrelevant to a discussion about police brutality as well as none of your f*#king business...though I will say that every politician is bought and paid for...
Partisan Politics is singing it's death song. Pepper spray is a vegetable and corporations are people too.
Piss off Skippy, If you have a personal problem. you can PM me anytime.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
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After seeing skips post of some of those OWS actions in all those cities looks like both sides are full of brutalities.
From the cops it's to expected as they are the "Arm" of society and are controlled by the "head".
If your heads not screwed on right then you'll beaten by your arms.
I watched the video of the idiot OWS protesters knocking down the 78 year old lady, giving here a bloody nose and injuries, who rode the bus for 11 hours to get to the AP event.
The OWS people better get sh'it together because they seem totally fragmented by many different ideologies.
A lot of idiots in the OWS are making it hard for the more intelligent protesters to get their point across.
They need a national unifying leader with some good brain in his/her head .....
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 21, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
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okay skippy I'll play
NY: 10/9/2011 — Stinking up Wall Street: Protesters Accused of Living in Filth as Shocking Pictures Show One Demonstrator Defecating on a POLICE CAR- debunked
Chicago: 10/17/2011 — COMMUNIST LEADER Cheered at Occupy Chicago-Commies!!!..really?
New York: 10/11/2011 — “You Can Have Sex with Animals.” well...in that case
Los Angeles: 10/14/2011 – Anti-Semitic Protester at Occupy Wall Street...was the Dept of Homeland security notified?
10/27/2011 – Anti-Semitic Tweet From Occupier or Sympathizer...Israel deeply concerned
Boston: 10/20/2011 — Occupy Boston Doesn’t Want Police Involved in Rape...that would be assault and battery .
Portland, OR: 10/18/2011 — Capitalist Offering Jobs at Occupy Portland Finds Few Takers....Recruiter for B Of A?
Dayton, OH: 10/22/2011 — Protester: ‘F*ck The Military, F*ck Your Flag, And F*ck The Police’- free speech
Chicago: 10/14/2011 — Protesters’ Message At #OccupyChicago Rally: ‘Destroy Israel’...free speech
NY: 10/21/2011 — New Yorkers Fed Up With Noisy, Defecating Protesters...New Yorkers don't defecate?
Chicago: 10/26/2011 — Occupiers Under Investigation by FBI for Links to Terrorism- once occupiers are 'terrorists' we can justify a military response
Glasgow: 10/26/2011 — Woman Gang-Raped...sure it wasn't a soccer match
Denver: 10/15/2011 — Occupy Denver Demonstrator Accused of Groping TV Photographer,,,Faux news "he asked for it."
Minneapolis, MN: Bricks, Rocks, ‘Riot Supplies’ Discovered by Police...at local landscaping supplier
Chicago: 10/26/2011 — Unrepentant Domestic Terrorist Bill Ayers Wows Occupiers. Is 'wowing' illegal?
10/26/2011/ — Occupy Protests Have Jewish Leaders Concerned...Alert the media.
San Diego: 10/25/2011 — Flag Used as Chew Toy by Occupier’s Dog...left his other flag in San Francisco
Charlottesville, VA: 11/1/2011 — Underage Drinking at Occupy Charlottesville Site...probably imported beer
Los Angeles: 11/7/2011 — Occupiers Shut Down Burger King — Video...?
Ottawa, CN: 10/29/2011 — Feces, Urine, and Blood Covered Blanket Hung Over Tent...riveting
NYC: 11/17/2011 – Mob of Occupiers Taunt, Bully Small School Children...were they anti semitic, communist. homeless schoolchildren?
San Francisco, CA: 11/15/2011 — Deadly Dog Disease Spreads at Occupy Camp..chew toy flag sharing..
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 21, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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if Locker says you're an okay guy who is just misunderstood I'm willing to consider the possibility.
You all (You are a fake libertarian so it is easy to lump you in with the
rest of the crowd) need to come to grips with the real world.
You don't get to go around and say "assnine" things, call people all kinds of
names, gang up together, and then pretend you are above it all.
If you have a personal problem feel free to PM me.
Like I said, you are far from any type of "liberal/libertarian" that you pretend.
Real Libertarians understand the basic concepts of "property."
I do not pretend to be anything other than a concerned citizen of this country.
It is my right, as it is yours, to go around saying any assinine thing I want to, short of slander or libel.
I called you a dick- I apologize and will edit. Who have I ganged up upon? What have I pretended to be above?
I've been to three OWS actions. How much firsthand knowledge of OWS do you have? And before you label me anti-semitic, commie, liberal, flag chewing hippie- I went to see for myself, to decide for myself and form an opinion, which as you know, is my right.
re: concepts of property= you do understand who owns the University of California?
since you're so readily labeling - care to label yourself? What flag are you chewing on?
A lot of idiots in the OWS are making it hard for the more intelligent protesters to get their point across.
They need a national unifying leader with some good brain in his/her head ..... agreed
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 21, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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When I first saw the video, I didn’t think it was a big deal, they pepper sprayed some people who wouldn’t move. I wondered if they could have moved them without the pepper spray. I wondered what’s the policy. If pepper spray has been proven a less damaging/violent way to remove people than force it may be the best thing. If they crossed their ts and dotter their is and informed people of what would happen maybe it had to happen.
But then I read the response of the head of the police. She said the officers were surrounded and had to use pepper spray to clear an opening to leave. Total B.S. The video clearly shows one cop spraying the people who were peacefully blocking the sidewalk. If the head of the police had to lie, then obviously the way the spraying went down was wrong and against policy. This lie is way more damaging than the spraying in the first place. Her lie makes it so; people can’t trust the police, obvious that they care more about protecting their own who did wrong rather than following the law and protecting the public, and because she has introduced this distrust of the police she put their officers more at risk in the future because people can’t trust them. Great job a-hole!
Look at that photo of the loser, pear shaped, fat pig who sprayed them. I think a lot of cops are great and in it for the right reasons. But there are also many people who want to be cops to control people and enjoy their little power trip. The fat pig who sprayed them looks like the latter. Just the way he showed off the can of spray then made TWO passes spraying them until the can was empty shows what type of cop he is, the pig kind.
Edit to add:
UC Davis Police Chief Annette Spicuzza told reporters Saturday that the decision to use the pepper spray was made at the scene. "The students had encircled the officers," she said. "They needed to exit. They were looking to leave but were unable to get out."
She has now been placed on leave as well. What a dumb fool. How do you lie about something that is so clearly seen to be a lie on dozens of videos.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
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fattrad wrote:
By refusing to move or "peacefully" resisting arrest, their actions become non-peaceful and appropriate levels of force should be used.
So you consider Rosa Parks actions to be non-peaceful (in other words violent)?
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 21, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 21, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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LOL!!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 21, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
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It's so funny to hear the righties who supposedly love freedom justify fascist actions by the police against people who peaceably are demonstrating their right to free speech. Even funnier that they see no hypocrisy in their position. Freedom to them means freedom to do what THEY think is ok, totally not getting the point.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 21, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
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I don't think they should block the walkway either, but that is not justification to pepper spray them.
What's telling is the people who try to justify the pepper spraying. So many people are clearly outraged by what they saw, but it's totally ok with those who are anti OWS. If it was Tea Party people who got sprayed for the exact same thing they would rail about government overreach.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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If you compare what happened at U.C. Davis with the hundreds, perhaps thousands killed in the Middle East for protesting, it's pretty mild, a little pepper spray.
It is somewhat of a testimony to the relative peace and freedom we enjoy here, compared to many places in the world. Possibly a more intelligent response by the police would have been to wait until sun down, then spray with lots of cold water. Better still, bring in a snow making machine.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
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skipt wrote:
Last I checked Rosa Parks didn't sit in a bus for days on end.
Your analogy is bogus.
I don't see how with regard to fattrad's statement.
Here it is again
fattrad wrote:
By refusing to move or "peacefully" resisting arrest, their actions become non-peaceful and appropriate levels of force should be used.
Rosa Parks refused to move. Given fattrad's statement above I asked if he would have considered her resistance to no longer be peaceful.
skipt wrote:
There were other people at Davis and last time I checked they were not
allowed to use the space because it was taken over by people who thought
they had more right to use it than anyone else.
Honest question, have you ever been to UCD? Ever been to the quad? Seen the campus?
I did my undergraduate studies at UCD and during that time there were many protests, events, gatherings, etc., on that very quad and elsewhere. I guarantee you that people occupying the quad, even in the spot where they were, does not inconvenience anyone, at least not relative to the usual goings-on at the campus.
And I guarantee you that no one sitting on the concrete in that video deserved to be pepper sprayed and brutalized by the police in that manner. Why do you feel that they deserved it?
skipt wrote:
You have completely put Rosa Parks on her head.
What would you have done if Rosa Parks wanted to use that space to tell
people of her opinion?
fattrad stated that “by refusing to move …” the students had in effect stopped being peaceful and had turned to violence. So I asked if he considered Rosa Parks refusal to move to be an act of violence.
What about that don’t you understand?
skipt wrote:
Would you have told her that using police to clear it first is wrong?
Would you have told her that she either join the protest first or not be
able to use it to tell her story?
What are you talking about (especially with regard to my post)?
skipt wrote:
Did the thought ever occur to you that you are closer to being fascist
than anyone else?
Skip
How, in my question to fattrad, am I being fascist? In what way are OWS protestors being fascist?
Actually, how about demonstrating first that you actually understand what fascism means.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 21, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
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Skipt as long as you keep pooping out unsubstantiated nonsense your opinions will keep smelling like a litter box. Like a typical Republicant you seem to believe a lie is only a lie if you don't tell it enough.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
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I would be a good mental exercise for those critical of this moment to state what it would take to bring them to the streets in protest and what would be justifiable tactics.
Would the banning of handguns do it? What is unacceptable enough for you to take action?
Just asking.
Karl
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
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The real problem with this incident is that it does nothing to help the University, or the UC system, which is sorely in need of public support. I know that the euphemism for pork barrel spending has long since become "investment," but I think our expenditures on the UC, CSU and community college system have been a good investment in every sense, and have a much higher rate of public return than, say, our heavy incarceration rate for drug offenses.
One thing I learned from my tear-gas-filled years as a Berkeley undergrad, however, is that campus protests produce no positive reaction from those who do not already support both the university and the cause of the protesters. They simply lead those outside the university community to view the students -- and the supporting faculty (and particularly the liberal arts and humanities faculty) -- as spoiled, out of touch children who don't deserve or need any more public dollars.
If for no other reason than that, pepper spraying the students, rather than physically removing them, was a mistake. Yes, I know many law enforcement experts say pepper spray is appropriate, and safer, in that situation, but they don't consider the PR consequences for the University in reaching that conclusion.
That said, the idea that this is a failure of leadership by the chancellor is absurd. If the chancellor is micro managing the method by which illegal obsturctionists get moved, that chancellor doesn't know how to allocate her time. Some pro-union types reflexively think that battling and belittling management helps workers. Baloney, as the University will see when it comes time to seek funds from the legislature.
John
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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Skipt wrote:
Outside of protestors burning buildings. Partnering with terrorists and Nazi's. Shutting down work sites of people who have nothing to do with the protestors demands. And most importantly - splitting people into two groups: 1% against 99% without due process of law (the most despicable thing they have done IMHO)... I can't think of a thing.
Sorry, skipt, but that is not the definition of Facism.
The OWS have not partnered with terrorists or Nazis. As a matter of fact, the OWS protesters do not have any sort of leadership at all. The only thing that links the protest in each city appears to be a name and similar complaints, but the protests are not coordinated by an entity.
Seems you continue to use the "must be part of a team" paradigm.
Skipt wrote:
Answer this:
How do a bunch of cops that over react define "fascism?"
I won't since I never wrote that the cops were fascist. You have a bad habit of erroneously attributing opinions and statements to posters that they did not make.
However, I'm glad that we agree that the cops over reacted.
Skipt wrote:
It doesn't. Fascism is a "Political Ideology." The same type that you find with people who align themselves with Nazi's and don't give a sh#t.
Skip
For someone who has clearly supported the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq under the guise that we're bringing democracy and freedom to these countries - in addition to the fact that you've argued that the US is the greatest democracy on the planet - it's disheartening to see you use the term Nazi.
First, OWS protestors have not aligned themselves with Nazis.
Two, I am not one to use the term lightly ("Godwin's rule") so I'm not sure why you're using it with me.
Three, I have family who was slaughtered in Eastern Europe by the actual Nazis in actual concentration and death camps. I also have family who was slaughtered during the pogroms of Stalin's USSR.
When you write what you do you both cheapen their tragedy and fail to demonstrate what the OWS protestors actually have to do with Nazis or Fascism.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
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My apologies, Skipt.
Tone doesn't translate well and I did not realize until your last post that you were being facetious and joking around just to see everyone get their panties in a knot.
Well done.
Cheers.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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I'd seen that a few days ago, El Cap. Unfortunately, the positives will get overwhelmed by the momentarily sensational.
John
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 21, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
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Pretty cool development, the stuff is supposed to be 100 times lighter than styrofoam, a lattice of some kind of nickel/phosphorus. Big collaboration with funding through a grant from DARPA. So I guess it's socialist metal.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
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DMT, have you forgotten the crop-dusting, helicopter-borne use of tear gas at Berkeley during the People's Park spring? These Davis cops are pikers by comparison. The sad commentary on all this is that when I was a freshman at Cal, tuition (aka educational fees) was zero. We paid a small amount for ASUC and similar campus "services" but nothing whatsoever for tuition.
Now we're causing our best and brightest (I know the students at private institutions will disagree, but they are, of course, wrong) to incur such significant debt that the only way they have any chance of paying it is to obtain degrees that allow them to earn big bucks in large cities. The tuition at UC law schools makes it financially impossible for a student with modest means to take a job in the San Joaquin Valley and have any hope of making a dent in his or her student loan.
Worst of all, the taxpayers don't care. They want more prisons, and many would be happy to send more protesters, and a goodly portion of the UC faculty, there.
John
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micronut
Trad climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 05:38pm PT
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I know lots of yall will probably think this is kinda lame, but if I disobeyed a cop, I would fully expect to get whacked with a club or pepper sprayed or tazed.
Why does this always surprise people?
These kids were asked to move, days in advance, by the authorities.
Did they really think nothing would happen? If I ever make a conscious decision to ignore a police officer's request/command, I'll plan on getting thumped on or sprayed. Its part of the deal here in America. It's the law. I dunno.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
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Micronut,
It must be San Joaquin Valley common sense, but I agree that it borders on insane to disobey a cop and not expect to get tooled.
I'm focusing on the insanity of the toolers, though, not the toolees. Making martyrs seldom helps the martyr makers.
John
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
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proposed federal prison when the OWS gains power - top security
(that's the Goldman Sachs headquarters - lol)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 21, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
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Fatty, couldn't you send those criminals all to China as it's cheaper:-)
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 21, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
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Ouch! would have a field day with this.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 21, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
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You all don't see how funny this incident is.
Look at it as a revealing Darwin test for these OWS sympathizers: are you smart enough not to get pepper sprayed? - yes?/no?
Apparently 'no' this time.
The choice to either stay seated blocking a public sidewalk and get sprayed or stand up and walk away. Are you a criminal or not? Decide.
And these morons stayed seated! Violating the civil rights of the other students trying to get to class.
Get their names and post them so no one ever risks hiring someone so stupid.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 21, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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Is there any truth to the rumor that one of the occupiers was heard to say "Don't tase me, Bro!" immediately before the cop uncorked the bear spray?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 21, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
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We DON'T need more prisons...
We NEED more JUSTICE...
F*#k that, we need more cowbell.
Lovegasoline: Brilliant. Excellent work there.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
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The Occupy Vancouver people moved today. The city had been slowly tightening up on them in terms of what they could do and how, mostly things that were health, sanitation and safety related. Friday the city got a court order that they move by today, and now that the mayor has been re-elected, he has a free hand.
Until now, Occupy Vancouver has been camped in front of the art gallery, which is actually the old courthouse. About five weeks, with the original protest slowly being partly co-opted by various opportunists. The area is the de facto public demonstration and protest space in our city - always somebody there complaining about something.
This afternoon, the Occupyers took down their stuff and marched through downtown, ending up at the entrance to the courthouse, which happens to be somewhat protected from the weather, plus provincial land. And the court order in theory doesn't apply to it, although I suspect that will quickly change. As one of the protesters said, their commute to the courthouse is now half as far.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/occupy-vancouver-moves-camp-to-the-courthouse/article2243719/
Apparently the protesters, with help from unions and others, are doing a reasonable job cleaning up the old site.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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^^^^
The "Bed Peace" sign, made by John Lennon, recently sold for $150,000 or so.
All those who think that Yoko should be pepper-sprayed need to spend some quality time in the car by yourselves.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
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Out of line police thug brutality is disgusting. I agree. And when innocent folks who are obeying the law get abused by ignorant or dirty cops, its a blight on society and mankind.
BUT, if you are breaking the law, even a little one, you can't really complain when you face the reality of your actions. There are consequences to breaking the law. And they sting.
If I someday decide to take a stand for something I believe in and am knowingly breaking the law, I'll take a little pepper spray for the cause....But I'll be up front that I had it coming. Just my honest two cents.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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Lovegasoline,
You even have my family rolling on the floor!
John
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
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LOL, me too, that's stuff is just funny. Thanks Bluering!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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It should not be forgotten that this act of using pepper spray is a source of great joy to the protesters.
I have been down to OWS sites, and have watched a number of confrontations on live video. Unfailingly, the protesters are as rude, provoking, and threatening as they think they can get away with, plus a little more.
Their goal is to provoke violence. They carry many many video cameras. I have seen things that I was personally at edited to appear considerably different.
They likely have provoked an incident that will result in damage to police careers (part of the 99%), and damage to the Chancellor's career (likely quite sympathetic to OWS).
They are turning the police against them, nationally. They are turning the Universities, a great natural ally, against them.
Why are Universities a TARGET? They are not part of corporations, nor of corrupt gov't. This is very sad.
I agree with Ken M on this one.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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In 1997, the "Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation" group, leaders from a variety of countries, met in Vancouver. Leading to the usual protests, and aggressive police behaviours. In this case, the RCMP, who had jurisdiction at UBC, and clearly think they're a law unto themselves. One officer made a show of unnecessarily pepper-spraying some protesters, and was filmed doing so. His nickname ever since: Sergeant Pepper. Here he is.
http://thetyee.ca/News/2009/10/22/MercerPepperSpray/
There was a demonstration at the "G20" meeting in Ontario in 2010, where the demonstrators were blowing bubbles at the cops. One predictably went ballistic, and said to a protester: "If the bubble touches me, you're going to be arrested for assault. It's a deliberate act on your behalf, I'm going to arrest you.” His nickname? Officer Bubbles. Not knowing enough to quit while he was behind, he later sued YouTube for allowing cartoons and video of the incident (and commentary) to be published.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2010/10/16/toronto-g20-cop.html
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
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Hey Fats, what's the proper amount of pepper spray to use on those illegal OCCUPIERS in the West Bank?
They won't move.
They are breaking the law.
They are infringing on the rights of others.
By all the standards you have extolled they should be prepared for any bad thing that happens to them and they better not whine about the dirty hippies.
Should we just dump a couple of fire retardant bomber loads on them or should they be cookeed with your heat ray?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
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Well he made a couple passes, so it qualifies!
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tria
Trad climber
Davis
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Nov 21, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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Kevmn, I have to question the veracity of your claim that you were there. I'm at UCD and so far nothing that you said matches up with other eyewitness accounts, the video evidence (there's much more video available than just the few minutes when the protestors were sprayed), or even the public comments by the Chancellor or (now on leave) Chief of Police. According to the Chancellor she did not have a problem with the PROTESTORS' presence, just the presence of the tents. The tents had already been removed (some by the protestors, some by the police) BEFORE the spraying took place. In EVERY piece of video evidence I've seen the protestors were peaceful. I have seen no evidence of them spitting or being violent. If you can provide other evidence I would very much like to see it. When a few people in the crowd of onlookers began verbally assaulting the officers prior to the spraying incident others quickly shouted them down, reminded them to keep it peaceful and respectful. Your claims that medical stations were set up by the police is also not in accordance with what other witnesses describe, or with what the sprayed students describe (I heard them speak today. Did you?). Your claim that classes were disturbed seems unlikely given the location of the events and the fact that the Chancellor did not mind the protestors being present there. And finally your claim and the Chancellor's claim that this was provoked by outside agitators is a fear tactic, plain and simple. There is no evidence to support this. Only one person was found to be a non-student, and that person was a community member. In case you haven't noticed it in your time here, Davis is a strong, close-knit COMMUNITY.
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tria
Trad climber
Davis
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Nov 21, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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I forgot to add that the protestors were NOT given 3 days to leave, as Kevmn stated upthread. That is false, and even Katehi and Spicuzza have not claimed as much.
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tria
Trad climber
Davis
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Nov 21, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
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Wes were you that guy up in the top of that tree that I saw today :) ?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
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Dr. F brings hypocritical poor taste to new levels.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 21, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
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Yes
Being free to post anything is very hypocritical for me
I usually want more of a Tyrannical Oppression right wing kind of panties
As Locker and others have learned, you ARE NOT free to post whatever you want on a privately-owned website.
And even if you were, there are boundaries of common decency that you fail to comprehend.
Do you understand that maybe some children cruise this site with their parents?
You are a troubled mind if you cannot realize that.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 21, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
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F*#k yer "decency". I got that hanging.
Hypocrite.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 21, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
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Do you ever wonder why more women don't post on here?
And why some who used to, don't show up anymore?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 21, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
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You're not much of a man if you're going to let someone else decide whether you're going to be decent, or not.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 21, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
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I succumbed to peer pressure
pussy
LOL, I miss all the good stuff. Hey, I'd like to commend this Dr F as he at least has more than a 3rd grade reading ability unlike the other one. This one is funny too. The other F is so mentally slow, although it could be that the other one only reads the first 2 words of each post he responds too. This one clearly is much smarter, so cut the new F dude some slack.
What the F?
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 21, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
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I figure you're ALL a buncha dipshits.
F*#k you. I hope you die.
There's your decency. F*#khead. Mostly LEB, Skipt, Rokjox, Weschrist, Blue, & Dr. F.
Assholes.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 21, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
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King of Assholes, perhaps?
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:25am PT
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Point made. Thanks for playing.
I will toy with thee at my will.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:32am PT
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I have wretched PS skills, but I want in on this!
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:39am PT
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:41am PT
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:48am PT
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I haven't the time for this one but imagine Cragman with his bear photo...
...and the cop peppering the bear
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:48am PT
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:57am PT
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:01am PT
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just the cop
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:04am PT
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"SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — The University of California, Davis said Monday that it has placed its police chief on administrative leave amid outrage over widely circulated videos of officers dousing pepper spray on student Occupy protesters.
In a news release, campus officials said it was necessary to place police Chief Annette Spicuzza on leave to restore trust and calm tensions following Friday's crackdown on the "Occupy UC Davis" encampment, which resulted in 10 arrests.
The school has also placed two officers on administrative leave.
Videos posted online clearly show one riot-gear clad officer spraying a line of protesters as they sit passively with their arms intertwined. Spicuzza said the second officer was identified during an intense review of several videos.
On Sunday, UC President Mark Yudof said he was "appalled" by images of protesters being pepper-sprayed and plans an assessment of law enforcement procedures on all 10 campuses.
"Free speech is part of the DNA of this university, and non-violent protest has long been central to our history," said Yudof, who heads the 10-campus UC system. "It is a value we must protect with vigilance."
Yudof said it was not his intention to "micromanage our campus police forces," but he said all 10 chancellors would convene soon for a discussion "about how to ensure proportional law enforcement response to non-violent protest."
Protesters from Occupy Sacramento planned to travel to nearby Davis on Monday for a noon rally in solidarity with the students, the group said in a statement.
UC Davis officials refused to identify the two officers who were place on administrative leave but one was a veteran of many years on the force and the other "fairly new" to the department, Spicuzza said.
She would not elaborate further because of the pending probe.
"We really wanted to be diligent in our research, and during our viewing of multiple videos we discovered the second officer," Spicuzza said. "This is the right thing to do."
Both officers were trained in the use of pepper spray as department policy dictates, and both had been sprayed with it themselves during training, the chief noted.
David Buscho, a UC Davis senior from San Rafael, said he and his girlfriend were pepper-sprayed Friday.
"I had my arms around my girlfriend. I just kissed her on the forehead and then he sprayed us. Immediately we were blinded," Buscho said. "So I was sitting there blind, suffocating. My girlfriend was writhing in pain. I wanted to touch her but my hands were covered in pepper spray."
"He just sprayed us again and again and we were completely powerless to do anything," Buscho said. "This was my first protest. I've never seen any police brutality in person like that."
Meanwhile, UC Davis Chancellor Linda Katehi said she asked the Yolo County District Attorney's Office to investigate the department's use of force. She said she's been inundated with reaction from alumni, students and faculty and also would speed up an investigation that was to have taken three months.
"I spoke with students this weekend and I feel their outrage," Katehi said in a statement Sunday.
Katehi also set a 30-day deadline for her school's task force investigating the incident to issue its report. The task force, comprised of students, staff and faculty, will be chosen this week. She earlier had set a 90-day timetable. She also plans to meet with demonstrators Monday at their general assembly, said her spokeswoman, Claudia Morain.
The UC Davis faculty association called for Katehi's resignation, saying in a Saturday letter there had been a "gross failure of leadership." Katehi has resisted calls for her to quit.
"I am deeply saddened that this happened on our campus, and as chancellor, I take full responsibility for the incident," Katehi said Sunday. "However, I pledge to take the actions needed to ensure that this does not happen again. I feel very sorry for the harm our students were subjected to and I vow to work tirelessly to make the campus a more welcoming and safe place."
The incident reverberated well beyond the university, with condemnations and defenses of police from elected officials and from the wider public on Facebook and Twitter.
"On its face, this is an outrageous action for police to methodically pepper spray passive demonstrators who were exercising their right to peacefully protest at UC Davis," Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, said in a statement Sunday. "Chancellor Katehi needs to immediately investigate, publically explain how this could happen and ensure that those responsible are held accountable."
The protest Friday was held in support of the overall Occupy Wall Street movement and in solidarity with protesters at the University of California, Berkeley who were jabbed by police with batons on Nov. 9.
Nine students hit by pepper spray were treated at the scene, two were taken to hospitals and later released, university officials said.
Meanwhile Sunday, police in San Francisco, about 80 miles west of Davis, arrested six anti-Wall Street protesters and cleared about 12 tents erected in front of the Federal Reserve Bank.
Across the bay in Oakland, police cleared out the city's two remaining Occupy encampments on Sunday and Monday. Authorities say protesters at both locations left peacefully and no arrests were made.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:12am PT
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Why would a university have a police department independent of the town it's in? Are they a law unto themselves? Do they have the capacity to have a private police force? It makes sense that they'd have traffic and security personnel, for basic needs such as parking, traffic, vandalism, break ins and such. But armed cops?
Looking at it another way, a university is something of a cloistered environment, a bit like the Valley in fact. Yes, you have lots of energetic young people to shepherd, and no doubt there are occasional real crimes, but it's hardly east LA.
Up here, "security guards" in places like universities often are either wannabe or retired cops. Zealots or clock-punchers. They're not armed, and have to call in the police for anything serious.
Of course, the schizophrenic mania in the US for both guns and personal 'freedoms', and for authoritarianism, no doubt skews this.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:24am PT
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we kicked the ROTC off campus back in 1970, couple of cocktails on the side of the building
kind of like animal house,
then the beagle demonstrations in 86,
remember Bakke getting into med school?
homeboy from los altos,
"Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, 438 U.S. 265 (1978) was a landmark decision of the Supreme Court of the United States that ruled unconstitutional the admission process of the Medical School at the University of California at Davis, which set aside 16 of the 100 seats for African American students.
The "diversity in the classroom" justification for considering race as "one" of the factors in admissions policies was different from the original purpose stated by UC Davis Medical School, whose special admissions program under review was designed to ensure admissions of traditionally discriminated-against minorities. UC Davis Medical School originally developed the program to (1) reduce the historic deficit of traditionally disfavored minorities in medical schools and the medical profession, (2) counter the effects of societal discrimination, (3) increase the number of physicians who will practice in communities currently underserved, and (4) obtain the educational benefits that flow from an ethnically diverse student body.
Justice Powell wrote the opinion for the Court, which was joined by Chief Justice Burger, Justice Rehnquist, Justice Stewart, and Justice Stevens, ordering UC Davis Medical School to admit Bakke. Justice Powell's rationale, however, did not carry a majority of justices. Justice Powell, writing for himself save Part I and V-C joined by Justice Blackmun, Justice Brennan, Justice Marshall, and Justice White, and Part III-A joined only by Justice White, concluded that while the school had a compelling interest in a diverse student body and therefore could consider race as a "plus" factor in its admissions program (Part IV-D), it could not ex ante set aside seats specifically for a certain race, resulting in the automatic exclusion of others based only on race (Part IV-B).
Chief Justice Burger, Justice Rehnquist, Justice Stewart, and Justice Stevens, while concurring in result, would have not relied on the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, but instead, Title VI of the Civil Rights Act.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:49am PT
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They do UBC and all the "endowment" lands, and used to be (and maybe still are) a subdivision of the Richmond RCMP, that being the nearest of any size. They were never seen much on campus, and mostly did traffic and property crime.
They brought in huge numbers of RCMP for the APEC mess. Because it's a federal government/international event, the RCMP have main responsibility. There were hundreds at UBC. The regular detachment was probably not much involved. Out of their league.
You're right about the local detachments of the RCMP around BC. Unless there's local civilian accountability, we should dump them, and go back to having provincial police. The manslaughter of Dziekanski, and subsequent RCMP perjury, was the last straw.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:50am PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:10am PT
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Adbusters magazine, based in Vancouver, started the whole Occupy Wall Street movement. Here's their current take: http://www.adbusters.org/
It's hard to figure out a magazine that claims to be anti-consumerist, but that's full of glossy, albeit satirical, ads.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:07am PT
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You offer nothing to back up what you appear to assert. Skipt
But, if you are not going to back of your asertions, then you really shouldn't be worried about lack of logic with others. Skipt
Now that's what I call irony.
Lil' Skippy telling others they don't back up their ASSertions.
Hey Fats, what's the proper amount of pepper spray to use on those illegal OCCUPIERS in the West Bank?
They won't move.
They are breaking the law.
They are infringing on the rights of others.
By all the standards you have extolled they should be prepared for any bad thing that happens to them and they better not whine about any of it the dirty hippies.
Should we just dump a couple of fire retardant bomber loads on them or should they be cooked with your heat ray?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 07:42am PT
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/11/19/police-response-to-occupy-wall-street-is-absurd/
By and large, Occupy has been a peaceful affair. Certainly pepper-spraying protesters while they sit calmly in a row like this is a gross abuse of power. It should have our collective blood boiling, whether or not we even agree with the protesters themselves.
And make no mistake, the powers of the police in this country have grown out of hand. I’ve written at length on the militarization of the police, of SWAT team abuses, and the way that the war on terror and the war on drugs have both contributed to what is really just a war on individual liberty.
Occupy Wall Street may need to grow up and evolve, but a far greater and more pressing issue facing this country is what to do about the security state we’ve erected about us at the local, state, and federal level.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
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MS Paint is no substitute for PS. But that's all I have here.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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It's pretty irresponsible to show up someplace where the police are suited up in RIOT gear if you're pregnant.
It's not a good idea anyway, but especially not if you're pregnant.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
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classy...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
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Yeah they're pussies.
Fuking whiny pussies.
They said there's nothing we could do while sitting there.
Stupid Americans .....
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travelin_light
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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On a side note, if anyone is actually interested in acquiring their own pepper spray. I found some excellent reviews.
"I know the first thing you thought when you saw the red canister: That's girly. This isn't the fire department, ladies.
Bro: it's okay. You want your targets to see this coming! They will raise their sumbissive hands to protect their nasal and ocular cavities. LOL. Citizens won't know what hit them. Thanks to the next generation irritants in this product, you will only impregnate their fingers with a fiery blend of liquid hell. Be persistent. Take them down. A half hour later they will be touching their eyes and noses and feeling the burn AGAIN! See you next time!
This is space age domination technology. Works on citizens. AND ALIENS!!
After a long day of citizen suppression you'll be ready to kick back and knock out a few reps of icy cold 12 oz. Coors Light curls. When you're out in the rain with your buds, you need something nice to look forward to. Tasting the rockies. What better prep than holding up a pair of 12 oz. 56895 MK-9 streamers!
Your ability to stand for hours at a time is one of the reasons that you are special. You are mentally tough enough to serve your leadership and deliver the citizen suppression that will keep us safe. Everyone at Defense Technology salutes your service. You were probably trained to keep your cool and administer suppressive justice with a calm professionalism. With the Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 stream, that approach is antiquated. The days of the steely cool tough guy are over. Get angry! Let it out! Squirt 'em down! Shake out the sillies!"
"Whenever I need to breezily inflict discipline on unruly citizens, I know I can trust Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band/1.3% Blue Band Pepper Spray to get the job done! The power of reason is no match for Defense Technology's superior repression power. When I reach for my can of Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band/1.3% Blue Band Pepper Spray, I know that even the mighty First Amendment doesn't stand a chance against its many scovil units of civil rights suppression.
When I feel threatened by students, no matter how unarmed, peaceful and seated they may be, I know that Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band/1.3% Blue Band Pepper Spray has got my back as I casually spray away at point blank range.
It really is the Cadillac of citizen repression technology.
Buy a whole case!"
Here is more reviews guys! Happy spraying everyone!
http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Technology-56895-Stream-Pepper/product-reviews/B0058EOAUE/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt_sr_5?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addFiveStar
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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FAts the protesters have a constitutionally protected right to be do what they are doing.
There is NOTHING legal about Israel.
FatTrad says "Let's start gassing the Occupiers"
I am with you 100% on that one.
We should send all our fat assed power corrupted abusive pigs to Is('nt)real to start gassing those dirty hippie occupiers. You noticed I put "fat Assed" in there so you wouldn't think I was leaving you out BigBoi.
Lt. John Pike & Jeff Elfont Uhmerikaz finest.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
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Look at the difference between this MAN and the flesh rippin' weasel Lt. John Pike.
MEN like Ray Lewis are why I still have a shred of respect for the police.
Elfont & Pike are why I think their uniforms should be emblazoned with bull's eye targets.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
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You're not a hero for getting arrested, you're an idiot.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
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No Chaz, in cases like this it makes you a PATRIOT! Some thing that escapes your goose stepping understanding.
If you want to see a real idiot go look in a mirror. You are an Un-American PIG!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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The only thing he changed is now he has an arrest record.
Dude's an idiot, for getting arrested.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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Yeah, in Chaz's fascist wet dream it would be so much better for him to have a record of police brutality.
Ghaz just because you have been neutered doesn't for a nano second mean those being arrested for speaking truth to power are stupid in the slightest. On the other hand you blanket demonization makes you appear to be a stupid frightened little eunuch.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:16pm PT
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What *truth* was he speaking? I'll bet you don't even know.
All that truth got lost when he stupidly got himself arrested.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
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You mean like the arrests of Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandella and Ghandhi?
Yeah compared to Chaz's staggering intellect those dirty hippies were stupid.
Chaz, open your mouth it's time to change your shoes.
Hey Einstein, "Speaking Truth to Power" is a Quaker tenent and does NOT require speaking words.
Look out Chaz the quakers are coming the Quakers are coming.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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OWS is finished. Let the clean up begin
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
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Philo,
Surely you're not equating these Wall Street Protestors to Martin Luther King, are you?
You're not that clueless.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
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Chaz, Surely you are not equating Fat assed pepper spraying PIG with arrested retired Police Chief?
Your comments are stupid and belie the fear in your blackened little scrotum.
The problem is Chaz that you are not equating the struggles in South Africa and India with the one in America. You seem stuck in the "America is always Right, love it or leave it" dogma of your overlords. Well pimple dick in this case AMERICA IS WRONG! And since you don't love her enough to defend the constitutional rights of her citizens then perhaps you should leave her.
North Korea is looking for some nice new minions.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
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You're not a hero for getting arrested, you're an idiot.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Now The Fet wants to compare the Wall Street protestors with the Black Civil Rights movement.
The two don't compare.
Ask around among your black friends, if you don't believe me.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
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Yes ASSWHOLIO they do!
Were you givin' it up for Goering? He was a fat assed pig/cop too.
Were you a ball licker for Tojo? He loved a good mob control too.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
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Now The Fet wants to compare the Wall Street protestors with the Black Civil Rights movement.
The two don't compare.
Well at least you were smart enough not to use "equate" instead of compare this time. But typical of righties you take a statement and spin it into something else because you don't have the courage to look at the reality of someone else's position.
YES you can compare OWS to the Civil Rights movement. Protests to raise awareness of social ills. People (often courageously) getting arrested to help their cause. Of course you can't "equate" them.
For the record I don't agree with disruptive tactics like illegal camping by OWS or disrupting town hall meetings like the Tea Party.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
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LOL ^^^^^^
Hahaha
"Americans are stupid"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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Fox News Host: “I mean, its like a derivative of actual pepper. It’s a food product, essentially.”
Exactly! Like jalapeno poppers, or queso dip. Delicious. In fact, pepper spray is about 1,000 times hotter than a jalapeno
YES! Let's diminish using Pepper Spray on students, after all its just a "food product"
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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^^^^^ This proves how stupid Americans can be .....^^^^^^
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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pretty questionable whether those bent out of shape actually are climbers.nttawwt
Top 5 FOX myths to debunk this Thanksgiving
MYTH #1: The congressional Super Committee failed because both sides refuse to compromise.
REALITY: The Super Committee failed because Republicans' number one, non-negotiable priority is to protect millionaires and billionaires from paying even one more penny in taxes.1 Democrats repeatedly offered deep spending cuts (far deeper than most progressives would like) in exchange for raising taxes on the wealthy and closing corporate loopholes, only to be refused again and again.2 So even though the vast majority of Americans say they want to protect Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits, and raise taxes on the rich and corporations,3 that won't happen until Republicans put aside their extremist stance.
MYTH #2: Nobody knows what Occupy Wall Street is about.
REALITY: Occupy Wall Street may not have a formal list of demands, but anyone who's been paying attention understands the core problems that occupiers are protesting—that corporations have far too much power in our political system, that Wall Street banks crashed our economy but were never held accountable, and that the richest 400 Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans—156 million people—combined.4
MYTH #3: Occupiers should stop protesting and just get a job.
REALITY: As anybody who's looked for a job in the last few years knows, there just aren't jobs out there. That's a big part of why occupiers are protesting. In September, there were four times as many unemployed people as job openings.5 And for those who are lucky enough to find a job, median wages today are lower than they were a decade ago.6
MYTH #4: Occupy Wall Street is intent on provoking violence, especially against banks and the police.
REALITY: Occupations across the country have committed themselves to nonviolent protest, in the greatest traditions of protest movements. Some of their protests have been met with acts of police violence—tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets7—but in many cases, protesters have reminded police that the police are part of the 99%, too.8 And in the few cases when people have shown up at occupations and committed acts of vandalism, other protesters have even repaired their acts of vandalism.9
MYTH #5: The biggest crisis facing our country is out of control government spending.
REALITY: The two biggest drivers of our deficit—by far—are the economic crash and the Bush tax cuts.10 We have millions of people out of work, corporations hoarding cash, and factories sitting idle. If we put all those people back to work—rebuilding infrastructure, educating our children, and researching new technologies—it'll shrink the deficit and make our economy stronger for the long haul. And we can easily afford it if we make sure the rich—who are taking home a larger percentage of income than any time since 191711—pay their fair share.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:50pm PT
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Or skip on the loose.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
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FET, u r crAcking me up!!!
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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boobies!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
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They're just practicing at the OWS camps, getting ready for Camp 4. Then the Pit at Joshua Tree, and other disgusting scenes of depravity.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
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I do not known if it's politically correct (or if it's UC Davis LEO procedure) but I'd like to see a calender made of Lt. Pike spraying down an assortment of boobs that my mind Occupied.
Best suggestion I've heard all week.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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Site #33 will be the first to be pacified - they'll be looking for the PCM banner, and the investment advisor who doesn't know how to search on the internet.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
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Leave Giada out of this.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
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Ummm, PhatTrad? Why is it you think I should be protesting at the OWS Vancouver event? I agree with some of the philosophy and world view that they express, and have some sympathy with them generally. As they haven't expressed goals in any very coherent way, there's nothing much to support or oppose there - although I certainly support their right to freedom of expression, however ineptly exercised. I have doubts that the OWS group will amount to much more than inchoate disccontent and some anger, though.
Support can take different forms, and hardly requires physical presence, or participating in street theatre. Simply speaking (in part) on their behalf, for example. After all, you said you supported (sort of) the teabaggers - but did you attend any of their protests?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 22, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
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When I see who the OWSers piss off (the same ole same ole bunch, imagine that lol, self-lumping) I want to cheer them on.
DMT
Ooohhh, Dingus is such a counter-culture badass!
F*#king weak. These idiots are lazy hippies. Argue otherwise. They want money for nothing and tricks for free. Yes, tricks.
They are useless members of society. They contribute nill, yet consume goods.
F*#king lame.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
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Oh yea Skippy I love it when you talk stupid.
Like some kind of toothless Southern banjo player.
F*#king weak. These idiots are lazy hippies. Argue otherwise. They want money for nothing and tricks for free. Yes, tricks.
They are useless members of society. They contribute nill, yet consume goods.
Why do you feel this way? There is no truth in what you say and yet you say it over and over.
Why do you feel so strongly about this movement that you are willing to be so clearly exposed as a pathetic liar? How did you feel about the TeaBaggers and their assault rifles and other deadly weapons at political rallies?
Here is your 99%er at the OWS.
Oh and Chaz thinks he is stupid too.
Yeah Police Captains must be stupid, lazy hippies contributing nothing but wanting everything for free.
Scurry off cock-roach the lights are on!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
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Has anyone here been stopped from getting to work or school due to OWS?
Have any college campuses been 'shut down' by OWS?
Has anyone on supertopo been directly affected or involved?
let's hear it..
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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And because protesters are so quick to cry wolf and disrupt society, truly important protest messages are ignored.
can't have society disrupted...that's damned inconvenient.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:08pm PT
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^^^ NO ^^^
Butt Flush DimFlaw said (&^%(^%$I&(&^$#*^%##*@ and he should know!
So **(&^%(^%$I&(&^$#*^%##*@** to you too!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
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The guys in Davis were blocking a walkway.
That's a disruption, especially if you're unfortunate enough to need a wheelchair to get around.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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Who cares if people on Supertopo have been kept from their jobs or kept from class? It doesn't change the fact that blocking streets and setting things on fire puts a strain on society as a whole.
I'm interested in firsthand knowledge of inconvenience, tearing sh#t up, shutting down college campuses etc. Do you (does anyone) have experience or are you just parroting what you've heard on the news?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
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The guys in Davis were blocking a walkway.
That's a disruption, especially if you're unfortunate enough to need a wheelchair to get around.
Cool Chaz, you were there. Now we can find out what really happened.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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Passive aggressive behavior is not peaceful.
They're lucky the cops were able to restrain themselves as well as they did.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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So blocking a walkway, i.e., a relatively minor trespass, requires a violent response from the cops?
ok...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
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You would have to believe that your message is so damned important that everyone needs to stop what they're doing RIGHT NOW and listen to it.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Nov 22, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
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but what about the boobies?
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giegs
climber
Tardistan
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Nov 23, 2011 - 12:20am PT
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Chemical weapons: Fun for the whole family!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 23, 2011 - 12:25am PT
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They call it a human comedy for a reason.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 23, 2011 - 12:28am PT
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Be nice to Chaz. He has dobermans. And goats. I'd be more worried about the goats.
Police forces the world round have a long and dishonourable history of over-reacting to peaceful civil disobedience - particularly if they perceive it as "liberal". As John suggests, what else is new?
Or, as was put so nicely by a Canadian 41 years ago, "Four dead in Ohio".
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 23, 2011 - 12:34am PT
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They are going easy on me, Anders.
They keep pitching me softballs.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland
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Nov 23, 2011 - 12:53am PT
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It's about time we got a decent laugh and some iconic art out of this rebellion.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 23, 2011 - 01:38am PT
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Here's a question for those who think it was ok to pepper spray the people blocking a walkway.
Would it be ok to pepper spray the Tea Party folks who disrupted town hall meetings if the cops showed up and told them to stop?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 23, 2011 - 01:59am PT
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Some people define Christianity by the best in Christianity. Others define Christianity by the worst in that Religion.
Same goes for this movement.
too bad...
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 03:00am PT
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Deadbeat Dad Joe Walsh Calls OWS Military Veterans ‘Anti-American’
November 21, 2011
By Stephen D. Foster Jr.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/11/21/deadbeat-dad-joe-walsh-calls-ows-military-veterans-anti-american/
On Saturday during a town hall, deadbeat dad and Tea Party congressman Joe Walsh said that veterans who have joined the Occupy Wall Street movement to protest the greed of big banks and income disparity are ‘anti-American,’ and don’t ‘represent America.’
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 23, 2011 - 06:38am PT
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skipt wrote:
degain,
I have no idea what you are about or what you are saying.
Of course you don't, and you never have. No worries. You've proved time and again that you don't understand or even try to understand what I or others write. It's a symptom of your "us vs. them" view of the world.
skipt wrote:
You flat out will not answer a single question I ask.
Actually, I've answered every question you've asked, whereas you have not extended my the same courtesy, either dodging my questions (do you remember your bullshit De Tocqueville dodge?) or using ad hominem attacks to dismiss my point of view.
Again, no biggie, it's a symptom of your "us vs. them" view of the world, so instead of responding to me as an individual you lump me in with what you perceive to be as "them" (the opposing team).
It's impolite, but hey, this is the Internet.
skipt wrote:
Good luck to you.
Skip
And to you. Godspeed in your quest to find whatever it that you're looking for.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 23, 2011 - 10:54am PT
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What if a group of Tea Baggers held non-stop continual prayer service at the university?
Would you support their free exercise of religion First Amendment rights?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 10:56am PT
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Yep.
Although prayer and assault rifles are a strange mix except among the illegal OCCUPIERS of Palestinian lands.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 23, 2011 - 11:39am PT
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only if they are inconveniencing society.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 23, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
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no one is getting dispersed for "protesting." no one has been denied right of assembly.
the line is between encampments and temporary assembly.
if you support the demands of the ows protestors to build tent cities on uc campuses, then you had better be prepared to allow the minute men, the tea partiers, the anti-abortion activists, the neo-nazis, homeless-schizophrenics-for-larouche, and every other whack job splinter group in the global world to build tent camps on uc campuses.
that also means that camps on those campuses like ucla and berkeley with major urban surrounds are going to be magnets for mentally and emotionally disturbed and damaged people, in a country with easy access to guns, explosives, and narcotics.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
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Were they really? WOW! The damn dirty humans. Kill them all. To the showers with them. Seig Heil.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 23, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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Wrong as usual klk. Those students who got sprayed were sitting in a walkway, not in an encampment.
i know that they weren't "in" an encampment. the reports i've read and heard (from a handful of folks i knew who were there) claimed that the group that got removed had positioned itself as part of a camp defense line.
those reports could be incorrect. they seemed plausible to me because that had been a co-ordinated strategy on other campuses and was what happened on my own campus. i'd be quite happy to learn that protestors at uc davis didnt make the tactical choices i've seen elsewhere.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 23, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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ffective defense line... as illustrated by the cops stepping over the protesters to spray them in the face.
the defense lines are intended to provoke an incident. that is their tactical purpose-- to get the cops-- or even just one cop --to react in a way that will then provide agit-prop that can be used as a polarizing symbol. the strategic purpose is polarization: to provoke "violent state response" in a way that will force onlookers to choose sides without the possibility of any middle ground. that's the way its worked in this thread, of course.
that strategy didnt work too well in the 1960s-- its immediate result was to help elect ronald reagan as governor and then the election of a democratic successor who ran partly on his contempt for the university of california.
so it sounds like the reports i've had are in fact correct, that the folks at uc davis co-ordinated with the other folks.
i am personally agnostic on the question of encampments at davis, which remains something of an isolated farm town / campus service hub. i'm not crazy about the idea of splinter groups all camped out in warring factions on a university quad anywhere, but don't know if it would be manageable at davis. i know that it's not manageable at berkeley or ucla.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 23, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
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It didn't?
no, southern christian leadership conference did not use that strategy. sclc was a self-consciously centrist organization that adopted a deliberately centrist platform and politics.
sclc's (and mlk's) strategy was later denounced by more radical organizations-- from nation of islam to black panthers -- as assimilationist and accommodationist.
you have in fact seized upon the key moment in 1960s politics-- the moment in which radicals of various kinds decided to break with democratic reformist politics and consensus building in favor of a politics designed to elicit extreme police response and thus polarize the populace. there was some theoretical ground for it at the time-- many of the Left (and it was a reall Left) believed that the world was in a revolutionary moment and that a majority of the populace would side with anti-capitalist and anti-parliamentary sentiment once they saw the state unleash its violence on protestors. the radicals were wonrg. it wasn't a revolutionary moment.
in california, the immediate result of the adoption of radical tactical choices on uc campuses was the election of ronald reagan and the elimination of clark kerr, who as the embodiment of political centrism pissed off the conservatives as much as he pissed off the radicals.
jerry brown rode into the gov's office partly on his open, repeated contempt for the uc and other public institutions. the voters re-affirmed their preferred political direction with prop 13.
the images you've seized upon are actually the textbook (literally) example of centrist and reformist tactics that have been rejected by the radical faction of the folks involved in the 'o9/10 events and the ows on campus movement.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 23, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
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weschrist wrote:
Or was it just a bunch of miscreants who wanted something for nothing and tea for free?
I'm pretty sure that they wanted their MTV.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 23, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
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What a waste of capsaicin.
They shoulda used a fire hose.
Actually they should have just taken photos and names, permanently expelled all participating students forever from the UC CSU system and tagged the non students for future arrest on trespassing warrants.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 23, 2011 - 02:03pm PT
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klk,
Fact and logic have no place in this debate. The emotional impact of a cop pepper spraying a seemingly peaceful person leads to visceral, not logical or thoughtful, responses.
If for no other reason than that, the cops should have known better. I can think of no better way to fertilize a movement than to make martyrs of its members.
As you correctly state, the legal issue wasn't one of speech or assembly, but one of encampment. The pepper spraying allowed the ows-ers to change the issue in the public's mind.
John
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Nov 23, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
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Actually they should have just taken photos and names, permanently expelled all participating students forever from the UC CSU system and tagged the non students for future arrest on trespassing warrants.
Now I know why you post under an avatar.....something those protesters could not do.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 23, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
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It is unfortunate that the main message of steep tuition hikes was buried, but when nobody has listened for years, I suppose any press is good press.
i don't think so in this case, and that's why i opposed extending OWS to campuses.
OWS worked precisely because the focus of the anger was so vague and the platform non-existent, so it could attract sympathy from angry folks all over the political spectrum. my mom tells me that in the small, rural town she lives in (cali), a hotbed of teaparty and ultra-right wing sentiment, the OWS protests attracted cheers from passing motorists of all stripes.
Lots of folks angry at B of A or at "government." But of course, lots of folks, mostly on the populist right, already hate the University of California and similar institutions.
Setting up a campus protest movement that suggests UC = BofA, or that Yudof = Madoff, is about the last thing we need. We already have an active, mobile and angry populist right that believes the country is being squeezed by jewish capital and 3rd world labor. The last thing we need is to focus that set of images on the UC. Whether OWS paints Yudoff as King George, Bernie Madoff or Pontius Pilate, the end result is going to be the same: Identifying UC with whatever demons the average voter hopes are to blame for everything that makes him angry.
The conscious decision by radical factions to go polar is amazingly risky and dangerous. There are folks who genuinely believe that if the UC doesn't return to the structural system of the early 1960s-- more than half its support coming from the state coffers, tuition literally free --that we might as well destroy it. That just seems insane to me. We don't have the pre-global economy of the 1960s. We don't have an ongoing Cold War to drive granting funding for a LLL. We don't have electoral support for a rational tax code. And we have a plebiscatary system that encourages voters to vote themselves more taxes and lower services each and every year and that is easily available to any whackjob splinter group that can attract outsiide corporate funding to finance a media campaign.
What possible upside is there to the current tactical campaign? That the populist right and the Maoists can join forces to fire Yudof? Who then would want the job? It already pays less than half the national comps. How can anyone with a triple-digit IQ, and a day's free time to familiarize themselves with California's budgeting process and recent political history, believe that we could pay someone half Yudof's salaray and have them come in and somehow magically return UC to a state-funded model?
Wes, btw, this isn't directed at you. It's just been incredibly frustrating to watch this play out over the last few years, the more so because the basic structural elements of the larger political and budgeting problem have been so widely visible and so widely discussed over the last twenty years.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 23, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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Thanks for answering my question Fattrad. I might not agree with you on lots of politics but I respect you for being consistent and having a sense of humor.
Chaz however couldn't answer. Telling. But I'll answer him, yes I'd be fine with Tea Partiers or other people doing legal prayer vigils. It's free speech. I have no problem with people exposing their religious beliefs as much as that want, as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples rights. Which is what they don't get. Just like smokers who think their rights are denied when they can't expose OTHER people to their smoke.
As much as the righties like to think the OWS will have no impact it will. Their main point is the superwealthy have too much control of our democracy. With the failure of the deficit super committee due to republicans not allowing the expiration of Bush tax cuts for the wealthy independents will see the republicans are in bed with the wealthy and won't compromise. Because of this nothing is getting done, the markets have lost confidence and the economy will continue to suck. Voters will blame republicans instead of dems and in 2012 not only will Obama be re-elected but a lot of congress will turn Dem.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 23, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
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Are you suggesting that some of the OWS crowd may be as self-righteous and self-absorbed as the teabaggers? Say it ain't so!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 23, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
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They should have sprayed them with warm water with a little yellow food coloring and yelled , "I bet you think this is just water!"
Fukt with their heads.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
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Fulminated Mercury enemas for the fat piggies.
Wouldn't that just blow their sh#t away.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
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Why can't students work their way through school??? Has the number of units required for graduation gone up??????
Isn't the answer obvious? These degrees from these institutions simply are not worth working for. At least not for the protestors.
It's much better to rack up the bill, and stick it to the American people when you can't make it work out. Then you tell people that you have the answer to the way economics should work.
Tuition used to be cheap and now it's expensive. I went to UC Berkeley. I think it costs about 10x more per semester than when I was there. Ten TIMES more! How does a student make $20,000 a year and be a full time student at the same time?
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
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It was hella hard
Have you considered trying to get your money back? Particularly from the English and Communications departments.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
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So Health Care and Higher Education are reserved for the affluent only. Eh FatBoi.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 23, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
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Good lord, there are a lot of ignorant f*#ks.
And I'm not talking about Philo, Weschrist, and a few other like minded folks.
The Occupy Davis crowd is facing a bleak economic condition, not faced in a few generations.
All some of the older folks--who btw, had it pretty damned good and easy--can do is lecture them about belt tightening, working harder, blah blah blah. In other words, "I've got mine, f*#k you."
No...FUKK U.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 23, 2011 - 06:59pm PT
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The fact still remains that nobody is forcing anybody to take UC student loans. Community college is an option for the first 2 years, or maybe go to a college that is more affordable, even out of state.
If you make a business agreement to incur a loan, you're a loser if you choose to opt out of fulflling that 'agreement'.
Not everybody is entitled to attend the college of their willing.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
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Degaine:
Ken M,
Your post is surprising and upsetting considering 1) how heavily armed the police are compared to the students, and 2) how there was absolutely, positively nothing they did to provoke that type of violence.
IF you consider it necessary to have police present at this type of demonstration, they could have, especially and the UC Davis campus, kept their distance.
The fact that the police show up and get in the face of the protesters is a provocation in and of itself.
Ironic that the same people who are calling for a small government or to get the government out of just about everything, are the same people who agree with police violence of this type.
Honest question, there were a few cases of police brutality at peaceful Tea Party rallies, did you make the same comments about Tea Partiers provoking the violence?
Reading your post one would think that you would even accuse even Gandhi of hopping that his peaceful marches would turn violent.
These peaceful protests reveal a system and a strategy that was already there, just under the surface.
Degaine, I have the perspective of one who was INVOLVED in the 60's demonstrations, and who have PERSONALLY seen the OWS protests, WITH MY OWN EYES.
I was unaware of police actions at Tea Party rallies. If there were, I did not see them, so can hardly comment on something I did not see. If I saw Tea Partiers provoking the police to it, you bet your lazy ass I would comment on it.
However, I did not perceive Tea party functions as civil disobedience designed to result in arrests, and hopefully violence against the protesters. I see what I see.
Apparently you see what you are told.
Once the legitimate decision to remove the tent city on the campus was made, the police could NOT stand by from a distance. It was not their job to watch.
In any part of America, under any other circumstances, have a policeman tell you that you are under arrest, and to come with him/her.....do not follow their commands, and see what happens. The protesters knew that, which is why in the videos, the protest leader who interacts with the cop, who is told he is going to be sprayed if he does not leave, has a picture of JOY and HAPPINESS on his face! Would you, if you were told that? Try applying some logic to the situation.
Ironic that the same people who are calling for a small government or to get the government out of just about everything, are the same people who agree with police violence of this type.
Nice to generalize, but there are a lot of people on this forum that will tell you that does not describe me.
Reading your post one would think that you would even accuse even Gandhi of hopping that his peaceful marches would turn violent.
Gandhi, and King, idols of mine, absolutely hoped for arrests, never hid their faces, and wore the violence that occured as a badge of honor. These protesters, who hide their faces, scream with outrage at being arrested, and act like privileged children with their minor injuries, sully their names by comparison.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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Bookworm:
actually, i'm an english teacher...in a public high school...this weekend, like most weekends, i will spend about 6-8 hours grading papers, trying to give my students the skills they will need to succeed in whatever career they choose: critical thinking and coherent writing...my colleagues who support ows don't even assign essays or, if they do, don't critique them; rather, they assign "service awareness" projects and ask the kids to make posters and express how they feel
I salute your service to youth.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
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"The fact is: the administration of UC campuses systematically uses police brutality to terrorize students and faculty, to crush political dissent on our campuses, and to suppress free speech and peaceful assembly. Many people know this. Many more people are learning it very quickly."
Folks, I have three degrees from Davis, as well as graduate degrees from San Francisco and Irvine. I currently spend many hours a week on campus at UCLA.
This guy is nothing short of delusional. I have ALWAYS seen a diversity of opinions freely expressed on UC campuses, all the time. To describe a "systematic" system of brutality to terrorize can only mean that the writer suffers from patholgic paranoia. "To crush political dissent"---must refer to the difficulty conservatives often have on college campuses, CERTAINLY NOT liberals....and in any case not directed towards liberal causes.
I would gather from his rambling, bizzare letter to the Chancellor, that he belongs to the Anarchist movement, who believes that there is no private property, that there are no rights that interfere with his, and that he can take anything that he wants from anyone, at anytime.
Not my cup of tea.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 23, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
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Hear, hear, Ken!
I have an undergrad degree from Berkeley, and a graduate and professional degree from UCLA. Each of my daughters has her undergraduate degree from Davis.
The hyperbole of posts does not astound me only because I've heard it for over forty years.
All it does is hurt the University I love and support.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
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I don't think there is anything more constitutionally protected than what the OWS folks are doing.
Speaking, assembling and petitioning the government for redress.
Almost the FULL first amendment right there. Throw in a few folks praying and it would be.
Takes a law degree and tons of educated BS to get around a simple paragraph.
These pictures and the attempts of our government to use force to stop them are a clear form of totalitarianism.
We applaud the Arab spring but we torture you publicly if you try it here.
You leave out one word: OCCUPY. Where does the constitution protect that right? On property that does not exclusively belong to you?
They CAN speak. They CAN assemble. They CAN petition.
Where does the Constitution talk about tent cities? Appropriating public property for private use?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
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The Police State Makes Its Move: Retaining One's Humanity in the Face of Tyranny
by Phil Rockstroh
Published on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 by CommonDreams.org
For days now, we have endured demonstrably false propaganda that the fallen soldiers of U.S. wars sacrificed their lives for "our freedoms." Yet, as that noxious nonsense still lingers in the air, militarized police have invaded OWS sites in numerous cities, including Zuccotti Park in Lower Manhattan, and, in the boilerplate description of the witless courtesans of the corporate media, with the mission to "evict the occupiers".
Hundreds of NYC riot police forcibly evicted Occupy Wall Street from Zuccotti Park early on Tuesday, Nov. 15, 2011. U.S soldiers died protecting what and who again? These actions should make this much clear: The U.S. military and the police exist to protect the 1%. At this point, the ideal of freedom will be carried by those willing to resist cops and soldiers. There have been many who have struggled and often died for freedom--but scant few were clad in uniforms issued by governments.
Freedom rises despite cops and soldiers not because of them. And that is exactly why those who despise freedom propagate military hagiography and fetishize those wearing uniforms--so they can give the idea of liberty lip service as all the while they order it crushed.
When anyone tells you that dead soldiers and veterans died for your freedom, it is your duty to occupy reality and inform them of just how mistaken they are. And if you truly cherish the concepts of freedom and liberty, you just might be called on to face mindless arrays of fascist cops and lose your freedom, for a time, going to jail, so others might, at some point, gain their freedom.
Comrade F, the above truly sickens me.
Note that the military has not had ANY involvement in the OWS issue, and yet gets painted with a traitorous brush. Why? I believe this is the groundwork being laid for the push for violence desired by the anarchists. He is setting up "Helter Skelter", and is setting the intellectual framework for attacking police and military, just because they exist.
I am not always happy by what police and military do, but I also appreciate they are the sword that is need to maintain order in society. Otherwise, it simply is an issue of who is the strongest, to force their will upon you. Mad Max would be the model of society.
Those who serve deserve our highest praise.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 08:20pm PT
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Universities are being targeted??
WTF?!?!?
Universities provide a safe place for students to demonstrate. Universities encourage free speech. Well, obviously not so much now....unless you're not on the "wrong side."
It's really disturbing to hear people who blame the victims. I wonder if white people blamed the violence against blacks simply due to their skin color??
Yet today, we praise people like Rosa Parks and MLK for their courageous acts of civil disobedience.
If the violence committed by the police continues, sh#t is going to get REAL.
Paul, I hope you see how you have been manipulated.
WHY is this happening on Campuses?
University police departments are small, and the officers generally deal with mainly low-level crime. They are NOWHERE near as trained as big city cops in dealing with riot issues, conflict resolution, and dealing with obnoxious people, nor being surrounded by hostile crowds.
You are FAR more likely to get an incident on a campus. This is why the protester, when told he was going to be sprayed was JOYFUL and HAPPY. They had achieved their goal! You get the sense that the only thing better would have been someone getting killed.
Don't you hate being manipulated in your thinking? Watch some of the live streaming from protests for yourself. You will be surprised how these protesters are acting.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
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A reasonable conversation eh?
Fair enough. I am of the opinion that overall the OWS has an overwhelming priortized right for their actions on public ground. That by the highest law of the land they are defacto following the law as long as they merely occupy chant hold signs set up tents, sleep, feed themselves and so on.
On private property this is not necessarily the case.
UC Davis is a publicly financed institution and is in a grey are somewhat. At the very least a prominent and effective area should be allocated for the protest and camp if so desired.
Perhaps these protesters crossed a reasonable line. However the police certainly could have done a much better job removing them.
Overall however this just appears to be more of the very unconstitutional actions of various authorities nationwide at ending a valid protest.
climb, you had me until the last line.
The major problem that I have, AND I GENERALLY AGREE WITH AIMS OF OWS, is that they are choosing the wrong targets and setting the wrong priorities.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
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How is the use of the military NOT an issue of the strongest forcing their will on others?
Germany and Japan attacked the US on Dec 7th. The military is the reason you don't speak japanese.
How is the USA's invasion of Iraq NOT an issue of the strong forcing their will onto the weak?
I wouldn't have called Iraq weak, but I don't agree with the invasion.
How was the USA's deliberate use of torture on its prisoners NOT an issue of the strongest forcing their will upon, and abusing, the weakest?
I thought we were talking specifically about the American military. Weaker militaries OFTEN torture. Weak gov'ts OFTEN torture. OFTEN, torture takes place outside the confines of the military or police. Rarely do either torture people, although it does happen. However slavery, which happens OUTSIDE of those two institutions OFTEN involves torture, and it is common in the US....but by common residents, not the state. In fact there is more slavery in the US NOW, than at the time of the Civil War.
How did the USA's invasion of Iraq benefit the 99%, who were systematically lied to about the reasons for invading a sovereign nation?
In no way that I can imagine. However, that was not a decision of the military, it was a decision of the Gov't. I note that the first committee set up at all OWS sites, it the SECURITY COMMITTEE. If OWS were made the gov't of the US right now, then they would command the military, and I'm sure they would use it.
How did the USA's complete fabrication of lies in order to invade Iraq, the USA's use of 'shock and awe' to bomb the hell out of a sovereign nation including the wholesale murder of its non-military citizens, the USA's use of torture on its prisoners, and the quagmire that has resulted in Iraq ....how exactly did all this BENEFIT and SERVE our democracy? How was this catastrophic fuk up which was engineered to enrich the 1% and resulted in the death of thousands of Americans of the 99% ... in any way, shape, or form a fight for our 'freedoms'? How was this use of the military anything other than a war of plunder engineered by the 1% to further enrich the 1% at the expense of our democracy?
Actually, there is no evidence that supports your theory of a war of plunder. I don't think it was done for that reason, but for ideology, and "spreading democracy". And I think it was wrong. But it was a decision by the ELECTED GOVT, NOT by the military.
Put the blame where it belongs, not on whoever is convenient.
You anarchist A@@HOLES want to tear down ANYTHING associated with gov't. You want to tear down churches, rescue missions, food banks, public hospitals, EVERYTHING. Pi@@ on you. You want to be the Pol Pot of the US, and let the blood run in the streets.
You will be the death of OWS, and I loath you guys. "Black shirts' says it all. You HUNGER for the violence.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
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werner, the folks in this slice of ows who actually are tacticians are hoping to provoke police violence-- that's the point of this slice of the protests. (no, this doesn't include all or necessarily even a majority of the protesters, most of whom don't think tactically let alone strategically or the various folks in the commentariet.)
the point is to provoke police violence which in turn forces the audience to take a position, for or against, thus dividing and polarizing. the theory is that polarization will generate sympathy for the protestors.
that theory didn't work well in 1968, but it seems to have a life of its own.
the weird thing is that such a huge chunk of those involved in the protests and many of those watching/commenting seem to be remarkably unaware of the tactical and strategic point to pushing confrontation over tents.
instead we get a lot of ignorant ranting about totalitarianism or weird sideways conspiracy stuff. the sort of sideshow of this thread is exactly why i was not in favor of ows moving onto college campuses. it invites all kinds of semi-psychotic babbling that then gets attached to universities, and especially public research universities, at the precise moment in which the very idea of a public research university is in trouble.
just a trainwreck.
but yeah, the most self-aware of the protestors who got hit or sprayed were hoping for precisely that outcome.
FINALLY, someone understands.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
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Sullly:
Couchmaster, we do teach them MLK, Walden, Malcolm X,C. Chavez, Gandhi, civil disobedience in both Eng. and His. departments. Cal. state standards and no child left be behind require it. Bookworm has to adhere to the same standards.
I'm sad my daughter chose sorority pin over protest the other day as my father (WWII vet) brought me up going to SF Vietnam War protests. BUT my family did side with UC Davis's Allen Bakke in'78.
My classmate! Anesthesiologist at the Mayo Clinic.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
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Wow can't keep up with this thread.
Here was my post today, in the LA Times:
Occupy needs to return to sanity.
It can go around chanting and yelling, provoking police and elected officials. If that is it's goal, it has been effective. If it wants to do something else, it needs to change what it is doing.
One often stated goal is to wake the American people up about it's corrupt gov't. Note to Occupy: in polls, voters rate Congress as a NINE PERCENT approval rating. It was there before you started, you didn't need to do much. Goal accomplished.
Another is doing something about Corporate Power and executive compensation. This requires changes in laws.
Another seems to be dealing with the rollback in school tuition support, school funding, and community safety nets. This requires changes in laws.
There are only two ways to achieve these changes: using the power of voting, or violent revolution.
I do not believe the American people will support violent revolution, and if you do, you better think about who owns the guns. It isn't the Occupy movement.
That leaves voting. The Tea Party, a MUCH smaller faction than Occupy, has successfully used this to cut gov't services, and block all tax increases on the wealthy.
The lack of an adequate tax structure in Calif, has resulted in the cuts to education and the safety net you see. The blocking of the small increases in tax that would result in much better funding is the result of FAR RIGHT REPUBLICANS, who even though a small minority, has the power to block any legislation.
Instead of OCCUPYING downtown LA, if OCCUPY used it's muscle to organize voters IN THE DISTRICTS where the obstructionist Repubs are located, and vote them out, the power shifts, taxes can be adjusted, and goals can be reached.
VERY FEW PEOPLE VOTE in the elections. This means that it would not take a huge number of new voters, to change the outcome. Heck, just get the students (those lazy idiots that don't vote!) to vote, and YOU WILL WIN.
This is how you do it, accomplish OCCUPY goals.
So, back to the endgame. Get off the lawn, you are accomplishing nothing, and pushing supporters WITH POWER away. Accept the city offer, you now have organizing space for a campaign to get the powerbrokers out of office that are preventing your goals from being accomplished.
PEACE is the way.
Bravo to the City, for an innovative approach.
As many have come out for the GOALS of Occupy, even if not agreeing with their tactics, this is a solution that facilitates the movement taking a positive direction---towards accomplishing goals of social justice, equitable compensation, and honest gov't.
It also avoids violent confrontation, and probably saves the taxpayer a lot of money in the long run, by eliminating all the costs involved with the police and other services.
VIOLENCE IS IN NO ONES INTEREST, EXCEPT THE ANARCHIST FRINGE, AND THE RIGHT-WING INFILTRATORS.
Peace is the way.
I posted the same thing on the OCCUPY LA facebook page. It was deleted. So much for concerns about FREE SPEECH.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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Maybe it was less about infringing your free speech and more about the your gibbering foolishness.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:43pm PT
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That's what fascists always say, Philo, before they begin the slaughter of those whom they've gained power over. I shudder to think what some elements of OWS would do in charge.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
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Latest from LA. I think I'll go down for the eviction.
Occupy L.A. protesters walked out of a meeting with city officials Wednesday after they announced plans to evict the protesters sometime next week, according to several protesters at the meeting.
Protester Jim Lafferty said city representatives told them that they plan to announce the eviction date to the public soon. He said officials promised to give demonstrators at least 72 hours notice before the eviction.
Lafferty, director of the National Lawyers Guild of Los Angeles, relayed the news to the rest of the camp on the south steps of City Hall. He said he walked out of the meeting in anger after the announcement and told city officials they "have not been operating with good faith."
PHOTOS: Occupy protests around the nation
The office of Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, whose staff members are leading the talks, did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
On Tuesday night, a spokesman for Villaraigosa would not comment on the date, saying only, "We're still in negotiations, and no date or deal points have been firmly established."
According to Lafferty and others who have been in the negotiations in recent days, officials earlier this week offered the protesters work space in a city building, along with other incentives, to encourage them to peacefully abandon their camp.
But protesters said city officials on Tuesday wavered on that offer. Lafferty said the city had not given the liaisons enough time to discuss the offer with the protesters.
"They are not willing to give us time to have that discussion," Lafferty told the protesters. "I said, 'The democratic practice here may be slow but it is beautiful and it works.'"
Lafferty and Mario Brito, another city liaison, also talked about strategies for dealing with the eviction.
Lafferty explained that if a protester goes limp while being arrested, he or she may be charged with resisting arrest. Brito urged nonviolence, and said protesters should rid the camp of marijuana and other drugs so that police don't discover them while evicting protesters.
"I'm urging you to do what needs to be done to clean up this camp," he said.
Lafferty said that when it comes time for eviction, a representative from the Los Angeles Police Department "promised not to do what they did at UC Davis," where campus police used pepper spray while evicting protesters.
Lafferty said the National Lawyers Guild would work to defend the protest, and said it would continue even if demonstrators are forced off of City Hall Lawn.
"This movement is bigger than this dead grass," he said.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
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That's because you are a simpleton.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
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Philo, I don't believe I've ever treated you disrepectfully. Is this the best that you can do, in opposing my arguments and concerns? You have no arguments, no logic, no facts? Only personal attacks?
I cry for what is about to happen to OWS, it's self-destruction.
You appear to celebrate it.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
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Well Skip as long as you repeat the same old hackneyed unsubstantiated lies, and then become incensed when some one to the left doesn't cite a source, You should be the subject of ridicule and derision.
And Ken I am sick to death with the lies and deliberate obfuscation of the wrongwingers.
As long as you intimate your support for their lying ways you receive no respect.
Regardless of what you or the neo-fascist pinheads like Skipt, Blew, TGT and Fattrad think the OWS movement has only started. Get ready you are about to have your socks rocked. The Cops are jack booted brownshirts doing the bidding of the 1% and violating the civil and Constitutional rights of the 99%. They need to be shamed. Ken if I have misinterpreted you I am sorry.
http://mockthedummy.com/2011/10/12/how-dummies-respond-to-occupy-wall-street-video/
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
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So SkipyDippy why wont you post credible links to the outrageous claims you spew as gospel.
Is it because there are none?
There you go Skip Karl Rove says Herman Cain eats babies
.Karl Rove to Herman Cain: True or false? - MJ Lee - POLITICO.com
Oct 31, 2011 ... Karl Rove said Monday that Herman Cain has failed to properly .... all sort of accusations made about Cain from eating babies to stepping on ...
See I can misconstrue reality too.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Nov 23, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
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To all the families of those who've been impacted economically by the OWS anarchists;
To all the customers prevented access to the business of their choice due to OWS mobs blocking the doors;
To the university students who could not make it to classes because OWS prevented them entrance to school buildings;
To all the public servants prevented from commuting to their offices because of OWS illegally closing streets;
and to the people of America:
I have posted here tonight as an American who, like all Americans,
hope and pray with you that these OWS tards will either go home or chose
to become instant organ donors to further the cause of freedom.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 23, 2011 - 10:42pm PT
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I don't understand the mindset of people who have to stoop to name calling, like some illiterate 2nd grader. Regardless, I thought this was well written, and that both sides would agree with it.
Support Your Local Police State
by William Norman Grigg
“Which is better – to be ruled by one tyrant three thousand miles away, or by three thousand tyrants not a mile away?” –
~ Attributed to Boston physician Mather Byles, 1770.
“Do you see this soldier in this checkpoint?” Iraqi Wael al-Khafaji asked a Reuters reporter, pointing to a spot just a few feet from his Baghdad barbershop. “He can do whatever he wants to me right now and I can’t say a word. Is this democracy?”
Before the U.S. invasion, this businessman – like millions of other Iraqis – was ruled by a distant dictator who had little direct influence on his life. Today, everything he does takes place under the shadow cast by armed men who have given themselves permission to brutalize or kill anybody who refuses to obey them.
For Mr. al-Khafaji, it makes no material difference whether the checkpoint is manned by U.S. soldiers, State Department-employed mercenaries, members of Saddam’s Republican Guard, or elements of a local sectarian militia. The problem is the presence of people who claim the right to use aggressive violence to force him to submit to their will. The problem is not one of geography or affiliation; it is a matter of institutionalized immorality.
Americans who supported the Iraq war would be scandalized by Mr. al-Khajafi’s ingratitude. They would be wise to ponder his insight while examining the extent to which our own country is becoming a garrison state. They would also do well to emulate his habit of looking with acute suspicion – and no small measure of resentment – on the oddly dressed armed men who presume to exercise authority over us.
Democracy is the art of inducing victims of government power to focus on the question of who controls the government, rather than what it does. The same can be said of the perspective encapsulated in the slogan “Support Your Local Police” (SYLP).
As sociologist David Bayley pointed out, “The police are to the government as the edge is to the knife.” The police are an implement of coercion wielded by the political class, whether they are operationally under the control of Washington, D.C. or City Hall.
From the SYLP perspective, the police and the “criminal justice” system they serve exist to protect life and property against criminal violence and fraud. If this were true, it would follow that most of those arrested and punished would be found guilty of crimes against person and property.
According to the most recent available statistics regarding incarceration, however, people convicted of actual crimes compose a very small minority of America’s vast and growing federal prison population. As of 2009, crimes of violence accounted for roughly eight percent of that total, and property crimes contributed a bit less than six percent. More than half of all inmates were convicted of non-violent drug offenses, and thirty-five percent were caged for what are called “public order” offenses.
Libertarian activist Michael Suede points out that eighty-six percent of all federal inmates were punished for what are called “victimless crimes” – that is to say, offenses not properly described as crimes at all. It is reasonable to assume that similar trends exist at the state and local level as well.
There are instances in which police act in defense of persons and property. Those are genuinely exceptional, because rendering that service is not part of their formal job description: The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that police have no enforceable duty to protect individual rights. This helps explain why, as economist Robert Higgs pointed out roughly a decade ago, “there are three times as many private policemen as there are public ones.”
In choosing to pay for private security assistance, Americans freely spend more than twice the amount stolen from us each year to pay for the government’s armed enforcement caste. This is because the government that takes our money fails to provide the promised social good – protection of life and property.
Writing nearly a century ago, when our contemporary police state was in its infancy, the immortal H.L. Mencken protested that the government supposedly protecting him was actually the most rapacious and tenacious enemy of liberty and personal security. While it is possible for the typical American to repel the aggression of private criminals, “he can no more escape the tax-gatherer and the policemen, in all their protean and multitudinous guises, than he can escape the ultimate mortician. They beset him constantly, day in and day out…. They invade his liberty, affront his dignity, and greatly incommode his search for happiness, and every year they demand and wrest from him a larger and larger share of his worldly goods.”
The one refinement we can make to this otherwise flawless polemical gem is to note that the terms “tax-gatherer” and “policeman” are functional synonyms. Both offices exist to extract wealth from the productive at gunpoint on behalf of the political class. The only substantive difference between them is that the latter are granted slightly wider latitude in inflicting aggressive violence, and equipped to do so.
As Carl Watner pointed out in “Call the COPS – But Not the Police,” a seminal 2004 essay published by The Voluntaryist, gathering taxes has been a core police function since the institution was first imposed on the Anglo-Saxons following the Norman Conquest. The feudal order implemented by William the Conqueror was built upon the “frankpledge,” which was the institutional foundation for a a police system designed to collect revenue for the monarch.
The Anglo-Saxon tribes had provided security through kinship-based groups called “tithes” and “hundreds,” who defended cattle herds and other property and acted as posses to apprehend thieves. Anglo-Saxon courts emphasized restitution, with any punitive damages being used to compensate volunteers who had tracked down the offenders. Under the frankpledge, however, the “justice” system diverted all revenues into the king’s treasury.
Royal courts worked tirelessly to expand the king’s jurisdiction, which was enforced by royal appointees called shire-reeves (from which the term “sheriff” is derived). Eventually, royal enactments criminalized efforts by victims to seek private restitution; since such arrangements deprived the treasury of revenue, they were seen as a form of theft. This concept of the “King’s Peace” could be considered the distant but recognizable ancestor of the modern notion that the disembodied abstraction called “society” is a victim of criminal offenses – even those in which no individual has been injured.
A heavy residue of Anglo-Saxon tradition endured into the 18th Century. A French visitor to London in the mid-1700s was astounded when none of the local residents could direct him to the police – or even recognize the term. “Good Lord! How can one expect order among these people, who have no such a word as police in their language?” he exclaimed.
In fact, the term was familiar to educated 18th Century Britons, who – as historian Leon Radzinowicz points out – considered it to be “suggestive of terror and oppression.” A 1785 Police Bill proposed by William Pitt the Younger shattered against an iron wall of opposition to what was regarded as a “dangerous innovation.” Until the second decade of the 19th century, the British government’s ambition to create a standing police force was confined to its Irish colony, where its heavily armed Royal Constabulary field-tested methods that would later be imported to the homeland.
During the same period, Napoleon Bonaparte, the armed evangelist of the Jacobin revolution, created the first modern police force. Bonaparte’s ascent to power began with a brutal police action: The massacre of 13 Vendemiaire (October 5, 1795), during which the young Corsican general used artillery to slaughter Royalist protesters on the streets of Paris.
By 1812, writes David A. Bell in his book The First Total War, large areas of Europe under Bonaparte’s rule were afflicted with “pervasive bureaucracy, particularly new agencies for tax collection and conscription…. To implement the new order, there came new police forces, often staffed largely by Frenchmen.”
Presiding over this apparatus of regimentation, extraction, and coercion was secret police Chief Joseph Fouche, the Jacobin fanatic who prefigured Felix Dzherzhinsky.
Bonaparte’s star was in eclipse by 1814. However, as British historian Paul Johnson observed in his book The Birth of the Modern, “the golden age of the political police” had just begun. The Congress of Vienna gave birth to what one contemporary critic called “All sorts of wild schemes of establishing a general police all over Europe.”
At the same time, Robert Peel, the military governor of Ireland, introduced the so-called Peace Preservation Police, a centrally controlled paramilitary auxiliary to the 20,000-man military force garrisoned on the island. Peel explained that the force “was not meant to meet any temporary emergency” but rather intended to become a permanent institution. In 1829, Peel was England’s Home Secretary. With Parliament’s resistance at low ebb, Peel proposed the creation of the Metropolitan Police.
“The new police institution had many supporters in government, but opposition was to be found in the wider society,” wrote Watner in The Voluntaryist. “The fundamental principles behind the force were seen as … anathema to Whig political principles, which emphasized `liberty over authority, the rights of the people against the prerogatives of the Crown, local accountability in place of centralization, and governance by the “natural” rulers of society instead of salaried, government-appointed bureaucrats.’”
Populist parliamentarian William Cobbett, an outspoken foe of “tax-eaters,” was among the fiercest critics of the Metropolitan Police, which he saw as the vanguard of a country-wide army of occupation.
“Tyranny always comes by slow degrees,” Cobbett declared in an 1833 speech in Parliament, “and nothing could tend to illustrate that fact [better] than the history of police in this country.” Less than a generation ago, Cobbett pointed out, the very term “police” was “completely new among us.” Now, owing to Peel’s innovations, London was now overrun with “Blue Locusts” – “a police with numbered collars and embroidered cuffs, a body of men as regular as the King’s service, as fit for domestic war as the redcoats were for foreign war.”
In 1783, the last of King George’s occupation troops were evicted from New York. In 1844, New York City’s municipal government became the first in America to embrace Robert Peel’s system of paramilitary police. This amounted to exchanging Redcoats for “Blue Locusts.” Other major cities – New Orleans and Cincinnati in 1852, Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago in 1855 – soon followed. State police agencies began to appear in the last decade of the 19th century, and first decades of the 20th.
While those police agencies were locally controlled, they were not servants of the public; they were instruments of the political class that created them. On the western frontier, where political power was either radically decentralized or entirely theoretical, security for person and property was “protected by private policemen who were paid by – and, so, responsible to – the community where they served,” notes libertarian writer Wendy McElroy.
Unlike the European gendarmes and royal British “shire-reeves,” McElroy points out, “Western sheriffs did protect people and property; they did rescue schoolmarms and punish cattle rustlers. Their mission was to keep the peace by preventing violence.”
Most importantly, in the Old West, sheriffs and marshals didn’t claim a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Thus when corrupt sheriffs like Montana’s Henry Plummer or Idaho’s David Updike used their office as cover to operate as “road agents” (horse thieves and highwaymen), they were arrested, tried, and punished by private “committees of vigilance.”
The only legitimate role for a peace officer is to interpose himself on behalf of individuals threatened by aggressive violence. That is a role that can (and should) be carried out by any law-abiding individual – including instances when the purveyor of aggressive violence is a police officer or other state official.
In the recent nationally coordinated police crack-downs on “Occupy” protesters we have seen the following scenario play out numerous times: Peaceful demonstrators confront riot police; individual riot policeman commits physical aggression against protester, then immediately escalates the conflict by using potentially lethal force; when the crowd reacts, the other police officers – rather than coming to the aid of the victim – form a protective barricade (I call it a “thugscrum”) around the assailant.
It is all but impossible to find an example of a police officer who interposed himself on behalf of the victim of criminal violence inflicted by a fellow officer. This isn’t surprising: A policeman can refuse to render aid to a crime victim without legal liability, and abuse innocent people without alienating his professional peers – but “going rogue” by intervening to prevent a criminal assault by another member of the punitive priesthood is a career-killer. Former Austin Police Officer Ramon Perez can supply the details.
Anytime a police officer commits an act of aggressive violence he is engaged in a criminal assault. If his fellow officers won’t intervene to stop him, law-abiding citizens have the moral authority to do so. But this simply won’t do, tut-tuts the program manual for the national Support Your Local Police campaign:
“The local police are not your enemy. Your committee is not here to attack them, blame them for violating the Constitution or your civil liberties because they are enforcing a measure of the Patriot Act or conducting a joint Federal and State anti-terror drill. Those are federal issues, which the local police in some cases may have already have little to no say if they are to continue receiving their additional Homeland Security funds, new equipment and weaponry…. We urge all responsible citizens in this community to work with us to …[s]upport our local police in the performance of their duties [and] oppose all harassment or interference with law enforcement personnel as they carry out their assigned tasks.... [We must accept] our responsibilities to our local police, to defend them against unjust attacks, make them proud and secure in their vital profession, and to offer them our support in word and deed wherever possible.” (Emphasis added.)
It apparently didn’t occur to the author of that passage that claiming citizens have “responsibilities to our local police” is to assume that the people exist to serve the government, rather than the reverse. Furthermore, it’s pretty clear that from this perspective, the police have no reciprocal “responsibilities” to the citizenry.
Does that “responsibility” to defend the police and “make them proud” extend to supporting local police when they carry out lethal paramilitary raids, like the one that resulted in the murder of Jose Guerena? Would it include support for firearms confiscation of the sort carried out by local police (as well as National Guard personnel) in post-Katrina New Orleans?
At the very least it would mean refusing to interfere when an armored bully carries out his “assigned task” of brutally assaulting a helpless, unarmed citizen, rather than carrying out the moral duty to do whatever is feasible to prevent the crime or end the attack.
“When law and morality are in contradiction to each other,” observed Frederic Bastiat, “the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing respect for the law – two evils of equal magnitude….” The “Support Your Local Police” perspective undermines morality by enshrining unconditional support for the police – who are, as SYLP admits, simply local affiliates of a nationalized Homeland Security system – as a supposed civic duty.
No individual or institution has the moral right to use aggressive force. That principle applies not only to the Federal Leviathan, but to the loathsome little replicas of that vile beast found in every city, county, and state. Rather than helping to consolidate the existing police state, supporters of the rule of law should work to end their local government’s monopoly on the police power – with the ultimate objective of abolishing it outright.
Reprinted with permission from Pro Libertate.
From here: http://www.theburningplatform.com/
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 23, 2011 - 10:42pm PT
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I have posted here tonight as an American who, like all Americans,
hope and pray with you that these OWS tards will either go home or chose
to become instant organ donors to further the cause of freedom.
Quite delusional to imagine YOU speak for ALL AMERICANS.
Clearly You are not paying attention. You are in the minority.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:20am PT
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However slavery, which happens OUTSIDE of those two institutions
Slavery also occurs within those two institutions.
Gasoline, please substantiate this statement. I am unaware of any slavery in the US Military or any US police dept.
Remember that I am talking in all of my discussions about the US, unless I specify otherwise.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:29am PT
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The thing you posted about OWS on the LA Times is absolute rubbish. I can understand why it was removed from the OCCUPY blog. Why not just advise them all to join the Republican Party? Or put them to work canvassing for Obama?
Your mind is preOCCUPIED with an old paradigm, which of the vertical hierarchy of the mainstream Left. OWS is not the mainstream left.
OWS is a horizontal model, with structural affinities more in line with the Arab Spring, for example.
All the trappings that you fault OWS for are in fact its greatest strengths. There's no leader. There's no head or headquarters to cut off of co-opt. Maybe they should move the OCCUPY movement into the LA office space. Does it come pre-outfitted with state of the art surveillance equipment?
OWS is an open source model. Furthermore, it had just begun. It's barely a couple months old. It's endlessly ductile. Just when you declare it is defeated you will realize OWS has evolved in its form.
But you just don't get it, do you?
OWS: "We are our demands"
Prepare to be OCCUPIED.
Clear enough. You are appointing yourself as the new fascist fuhrer of the US. You are attempting to attack the middle class of the US. You will fail, because if you do not approach this by winning votes.....you are LOSING votes.....you will have to do it through armed revolution.
You will find that you are now on the side of the guy who just tried to assassinate the President, tried to assasinate Gabby Giffords, Tim Mcveigh, and the 911 terrorists. Your goal is the violent overthrow of the US. You expose that to do that, you are very willing to suppress even speech that questions your tactics.
As I said, you are not the ones with the guns. You are attacking other members of the 99%, and they don't like it. Continue on this path of violence, and you will have a sad ending.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:34am PT
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Gasoline, (he is too cowardly to post under his name), your assertion is that the military and police are nasty things, because they impose strength upon something less strong.
Forgive me if I misunderstand, but in your various rants, that claim that OWS is just getting stronger, are you not threatening that OWS will win in the end, by imposing it's strength upon weaker institutions?
It seems like you aspire to become the exact thing that you hate.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:42am PT
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Actually, there is no evidence that supports your theory of a war of plunder. I don't think it was done for that reason, but for ideology, and "spreading democracy".
No. You are peddling revisionism.
At least I know with whom I am conversing.
There are scores of undemocratic nations that we have not invaded nor will we invade. The reason for the invasion of Iraq was made clear. The reason for war was to protect the USA and it's allies, and by extension to protect western civilization against the prospect of immanent attack of 'weapons of mass destruction'. Furthermore, the USA government had been in the business of supporting the undemocratic tyrant Saddam Hussein militarily by supplying him with weapons. The excuse of 'Spreading Democracy' was a later add-on to satisfy fools such as yourself. We went to seize their oil. The plan was a delusional right wing wet dream compounded by their endemic incompetence. Nonetheless, they made their money. And the 99% paid for it.
Uhhhhh......where's the oil? I mean, oil is pretty hard to hide, particularly in large quantities.
You have a theory, sure, but where is your EVIDENCE. let's see your citations.
You don't identify yourself, so you have no personal credibility.
You say you are the son of a slave, I find that hard to believe. Surely you know that is a rather remarkable claim. However, that does NOT make you an expert on that topic, anymore than a son of a doctor is an expert in surgery.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:43am PT
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And I think it was wrong. But it was a decision by the ELECTED GOVT, NOT by the military.
The best democracy money can buy.
OCCUPY WALL STREET!
If you don't rise to power via election, you are a fascist dictator. You know what happens to them.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:51am PT
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Let me see if I follow your logic:
A) I disapprove of abusive cops pepper spraying peaceful protesters in the face,
B) I disagree with going to war based on lies,
C) I have difficulty with the institutionalized practice of torture by the USA,
D) I do not subscribe to your revisionist views of history,
...so therefore. I am an anarchist A@@HOLE?
Furthermore you assert that:
A) I "want to tear down churches, rescue missions, food banks, hospitals, EVERYTHING"
B) I "want to be Pot Pol"
C) I "want blood to run in the streets"
D) I "HUNGER for the violence" and
E) I'm a 'Black Shirt'
Piss on me?
Ken M, you are delusional.
You are paranoid delusional.
Please be so kind and intellectually honest, as to quote back to me specifically where I have written anything in support of the libelous claims you have just made about me.
So much for trying to hold a reasonable dialogue with you. Your have affinities with Lt. Pike, but you wield libel where he wielded pepper spray.
Reasonable? With a Black Shirt? Name of Gasoline? That name give a pretty good idea of what you want to do. Who is too cowardly to post under his name?
You either achieve your goals through the vote, through democracy, which will require the support of the majority of the citizens of this country.....or through violence.
There is no other way. You are rejecting democracy, so you have chosen the only other path. You intend to Occupy the US. That is what an armed invader does. I don't think Americans like that.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2011 - 03:36am PT
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OWS sure has skipt spending vast amounts mental energy.
Working as intended.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 03:40am PT
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skipt wrote:
I am saying, I will bet none of the bull sh#t protestors who were pepper sprayed have ever worked a day in their life in a field.
And I bet none of the people they are protesting against - notably those working in the Wall Street Banks and the politicians in their pockets - have ever worked a day in their life in a field. What's your point?
UCD is an ag school. While a student there I met plenty of people from rural areas who worked on a farm as kids, so maybe UCD isn't the best example to use in your self-congratulatory post.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2011 - 03:45am PT
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OWS is just a start skipt. It must and will evolve and perfect itself. It is a part of the inevitable expression of a deep justice that cannot be denied.
Once that justice expressed itself in the Hamarabi's Code, then the Magna Carta, Later The Declaration of Independence, then South Africa, WWII, India, The Civil Rights Movement, South Africa Again, The Arab Spring.. and dawning in America.
There are always folks like you on the wrong side of history desperately picking and clinging to the imperfections of such great movements towards freedom. I am not sure why. What deep dark psychosis moves a human to fight to the bitter end that which serves his good?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2011 - 03:50am PT
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I repeat
There are always folks like you on the wrong side of history desperately picking and clinging to the imperfections of such great movements towards freedom. I am not sure why. What deep dark psychosis moves a human to fight to the bitter end that which serves his good?
Not a big fan of the french revolution. Too imperfect even for me.
What is the reign of terror?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:04am PT
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I see quite a few possible futures. The world very well may be embroiled soon in a vast war that makes WWII look like a piker. World depressions have historically led to such terrible uphevals.
I do have hope. There seems a path to avoid this. The USA plays the key role if we are to succeed as a race in avoiding such a fate.
Our power economically and in all other ways far outstrips any other nation. However it no longer serves it's citizens first.
The priorites must be seized by the people. If the government actually served the peoples interests the path to a great war or other severe meltdown would be much more difficult to travel.
-----------------
Ok what you call the reign of terror I was aware of and simply considered a part of the convoluted French Revolution. You might as well include Napoleon.
------------
Ok I begin to see your fear I think.
You seem to think that OWS is a step towards real socialism. Wheras I see it as a step away from RObber barons.
Both those being perversions of the law in order to gain unjust aquisition of an individuals natural right to their property.
------
However OWS is following the Highest law of this land. There are some much lower city ordinances that are in violation of the Constitution.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:33am PT
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It's getting late but I want to write this while it's on my mind.
Free Market. No such thing.
There are simply markets. They range from nearly unregulated to severely regulated.
They are highly competitive to government owned monopolies. The extremes in both directions are best avoided if one wants to see the best products provided to the most customers at the best rates while ensuring a thriving customer base.
They are efficient or inefficent. (efficient being better for the customer)
a VAST amount of regulation in the USA is designed and has been acquired via lobbying by individual business for the express purpose of destroying their competition.
Lack of regulation is a dangerous as over regulation. Again no such thing exists as a Free Market.
Or nations economic laws are severly out of balance. Balance being approaching policies that best serve the public by ensuring the best products at the best prices and providing a large customer base.
---------
Basically the foundation of our government (for the people) has been hijacked by the highest bidder in various ways. The most severe way is the campaign system by which wealthy interests pick the candidates first and then the people get to vote for them.
If we don't fix that then everything else is perverted for special interests that only coincidentally and occassionally coincide with the public interest.
OWS has some chance of changing this.. Nothing else i have seen in 40+ years has had any chance of correcting this fundamental flaw in America.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:41am PT
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Gnight man. Look forward to real (non-trolling) discussions :)
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 05:50am PT
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skipt wrote:
Maybe since you went there and know everybody you could just name the
names of the protestors who actually worked in a field.
[crickets]
You can't. They didn't. You are a poser.
First, what's with the ad hominem attacks? Is that all you got?
Second, you're the one who made the accusation, how about you name the names of those who have never worked in the fields?
As you put it [crickets]
I graduated from UCD a dozen or more years ago, so the people I knew who attended UCD that grew up on farms in the Central Valley have long since graduated.
Anyway, as I stated, UCD is an ag school, so a lot more likely to have students who have worked in the fields as kid.
That's neither here nor there and has nothing to do with the police brutality so clearly visible in the videos.
skipt wrote:
These clowns were wiling to be pepper sprayed in order to have their
student loans forgiven and there is no amount of sugar coating that can
cover that up.
This isn't the Vietnam war. There will be no troops coming home if you
finally win.
All you will get is a bunch of whiny babies getting their student loans
forgiven when everybody else doesn't get that. And, worse are having to
pay for it on top of everything.
Again, the reasons for protesting and the police brutality exhibited are two different issues, why don't you get that?
In any case, student loan default for public universities has risen slightly since 2008, just as default on housing loans has (as well as other loans). What's your point? That you don't agree with the protestors?
skipt wrote:
I'm sorry. It isn't going to happen. You all are chasing windmills.
Skip
You're the one who seems to be going after arguments that no one is making, isn't that the definition of chasing windmills?
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 05:55am PT
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skipt wrote (in response to climb2ski):
Thank you for letting me have my say and not telling me that I eat dead
baby fetus'.
I can assure you I am not a harsh guy all the time.
I've let you have your say, have never insulted you, even asked questions politely and out of genuine curiosity for an explanation of your point of view, and yet have received only insults and ad hominem attacks.
Why do you note reciprocate and only show disgust and disregard for my point of view all the while complaining about the very same thing from others?
I explained to you that I had family killed in the Holocaust and by Stalin's programs and you responded with a f*#king insult!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 24, 2011 - 07:46am PT
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Degainne, welcome to Skippity Dippity's world.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 24, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
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California Penal Code Section 12403.7 (a) (8)
"(g) Any person who uses tear gas or tear gas weapons except in self-defense is guilty of a public offense and is punishable by imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months, or two or three years or in a county jail not to exceed one year or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, except that, if the use is against a peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, engaged in the performance of his or her official duties and the person committing the offense knows or reasonably should know that the victim is a peace officer, the offense is punishable by imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months or two or three years or by a fine of one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment."
That fatass cop need to be put in jail, like the law says!!!!
All you dumb ass law+order republicans should be up in arms, but you're not, mainly because you are hypocrites
They say that the students should be dealt with because "they are breaking the law"...
But when an officer breaks the law.... you're mysteriously silent or just want to talk about some other pointless topic
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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There are always folks like you on the wrong side of history
desperately picking and clinging to the imperfections of such great
movements towards freedom. I am not sure why. What deep dark psychosis
moves a human to fight to the bitter end that which serves his good?
This is what Engles meant when he called his first draft of The Communist
Manifesto a "faith."
You have faith. You have hope. I bet you voted for Obama.
More to the point: You do not have knowledge of the future at all. No, you
don't.
In fact, you are so naive you don't even see it coming right at you. You
are too busy waiting for something else....That elusive something else...
Skip
Skip, thank you for your kind words in several posts. It gives me hope when those of different pursuasions can find common ground and respect, even when they disagree about fundamental things.
I would take issue with the post you made, above (not directed at me)----I would bet they didn't vote.
One can disagree about ideology, but when someone doesn't vote, I consider that unpatriotic, and really don't consider they have an opinion worth listening to, since they won't do their duty for their country.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
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You guys have no idea what "Anarchy" even is. I used to think that it means what most of you probably do: total lawlessness and everyone on a personal rampage.
That is the general definition in the U.S. In reality, it means the lack of a centralized government in the sense that it is some massive entity.
People come together and agree on rules,laws, whatever. They can even have a military and negotiate treaties with other nations.
So, Anarchy is a word that isn't really used properly. The Republicans lean in that direction a little, in the sense that they don't like the federal government for much, except for the military.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
Base104, the purpose of writing is to communicate. If people use "the general definition in the US", in speaking to one another, are they not communicating effectively?
What you are perhaps unaware of, is that dictionary compilers CHANGE definitions to add those which are generally used.
You cite Wikipedia, which is NOT a dictionary, a repository of word meaning. You apparently are unaware that a wiki is something that anyone can write to, including overtly wrong information. It is basically an opinion.
Merriam Webster, a dictionary says this:
Definition of ANARCHIST
1: a person who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power
2: a person who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order
Definition of ANARCHY
1a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order : disorder <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature — Israel Shenker>
Examples of ANARCHY
-Anarchy reigned in the empire's remote provinces.
-When the teacher was absent, there was anarchy in the classroom.
-Its immigration policies in the last five years have become the envy of those in the West who see in all but the most restrictive laws the specter of terrorism and social anarchy. —Caroline Moorehead, New York Review of Books, 16 Nov. 2006
-Fueled by booze and the euphoria of having seen their school win a share of its first … title in 36 years, a mob of Beavers fans hurled itself at the cops, breaching both chains and creating anarchy. —Austin Murphy, Sports Illustrated, 27 Nov. 2000
-But by the early 1800s, the mines began to play out, and the colonists challenged the Spanish throne for independence. The Silver Cities survived not only the bloody revolution of 1821 but also the ensuing century of anarchy and bloodshed. —David Baird, Continental, February 1999
-The anarchy of the Internet may be daunting for the neophyte, but it differs little from the bibliographical chaos that is the result of five and a half centuries of the printing press. —Fred Lerner, The Story of Libraries, (1945) 1998
So, sorry to correct you, but the posters have been using the term CORRECTLY.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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Also, BASE104, just as an illustration, take another look at your citation in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
If you look under "Criticisms", you will see I have added something:
Criticisms
Main article: Criticisms of anarchism
Criticisms of anarchism include moral criticisms, consequentialist criticisms, and the criticism that anarchism could not be maintained.
Also, inappropriate usage of definitions creating confusion, such as by BASE104 ( http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1670538&tn=660#msg1674632);
As you can see, Wikipedia can be easily manipulated to say what one wants. That took me 1 minute.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
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Karl,
Should anyone be at Berkeley when they can't afford it and their degree will not lead to a high paying job???
How about a Cal State campus, I think they are up to $6000 a year, perfect for Art, Ethnic Studies, etc.
The evil one
Knowledge, Culture, history, and understanding ourselves and Life are high expressions of society and should be addressed in our higher institutes of learning. The premise that "everybody" has a chance of excellence and success is negated when college privileges are passed down with the same money that rules our politicians. (How many presidents of our recent presidents have gone to Yale?)
Our passage through life is more than about money. Institutes of higher learning are our tools of advancing a society that understands itself and explores itself.
Life is about more than money. The Rich have their private schools. Pubic schools ought be be vehicles of the people.
And Cal State regularly raises their tuition as well at rates triple (or more) the rate of inflation.
We are gutting our fine society just to give the uber-rich tax cuts (meant as "stimulus" but just used to finance outsourcing and off-shore trusts)
OWS is getting people to wake up and smell the sh#t
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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What you are perhaps unaware of, is that dictionary compilers CHANGE definitions to add those which are generally used.
I've been trying to get this point across for a while. People too often go to current online dictionary definitions to validate their points. But they fail to use common sense or the original context of certain words. Entymology is interesting.
I personally disagree that word definitions should be modified. It muddies the waters of communication, especially when people take things out of their proper context.
Big problem nowadays. Most Latin-based languages (Italian and Latin specifically) have several words to describe what we call 'love', for instance.
I love pizza. I love my son. Not worthy of the same word.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
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Apparently, there's no evidence at all that Dr F's girl ( the one who claimed Seattle Police caused her to mis-carry ) was ever pregnant!
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/11/jennifer_fox_miscarriage_occup.php
She even made the exact same cops-killed-my-fetus claim just two months ago. At that time, she also claimed she was "three months" pregnant.
"Obviously Fox can't be three months pregnant in September and then still three months pregnant in November."
Assuming she was right in September when she said the cops killed her baby, and immediately went out and got knocked-up again ( I can see her doing that ), she wouldn't have had time to be three months along when the cops worked her over this time.
Even her own mom calls her a "compulsive liar".
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
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^^^ And yes it is interesting ^^^
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
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Isn't entomology the study of insects and teabaggers?
Etymology being the study of the latter's misuse of language.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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Well cut him some slack he did watch a science special on FoX.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
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Here's to TGT's NEWTocracy.
Hey, Cleatus Fetus Eater you've mistaken itinerary with geography.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
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A word for Ken M to ponder:
Libel
1. To make libelous accusations or statements; to spread defamation
Is it possible to libel a person who does not exist?
I'm not worried, bring it on.
You will find, that the affirmative defense, is that what was said was TRUE.
But I'm still not worried, because for their to be a suit, one has to reveal one's identity. :)
I'm still waiting Ken M. Step up and become a man.
Everyone here knows I'm a man. I'm not sure that you're even a human. Increasingly, I think you are a Republican troll, and not.
Get a life, Black Shirt.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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Ken M
Lovegasoline is for real and he's been here for years.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
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Ken M
Lovegasoline is for real and he's been here for years.
Actually, a fictitious name is NOT real. It is a fake identity.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 24, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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TGT,
don't you just love Hansonspeak;
the ossification of thought and the proliferation of the mediocre
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
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Ken M -- "Actually, a fictitious name is NOT real."
My name here is "wbraun" and is fictitious.
These are all just avatar names and most of the people here with avatar names for their identity we know anyways.
But I'm real at least I believe that since I bleed when I get cut.
Hey Ken M mellow out man you bleed too .....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 24, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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Why don't we regularly test all COPS for Steroid use and abuse? A whole lot of them appear to be suffering from Roid-rage. This country gets all bent out of shape when grossly over paid athletes who do nothing more significant than play with there balls or peddle bikes take them. Why not test the PIGS who carry weapons in public? The results would likely be startling. Or is it sufficient justice to wait for their testicles to turn black and fall off and their brains to go al swiss cheese like Lyle Alzedo? Of course the collateral damage of police brutality might be a problem in the interim. I think ALL COPS & PIGS should be regularly and randomly tested for illegal substance use like steroids. Any COP caught should be sent to prison immediately.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 25, 2011 - 12:16am PT
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OMG! Werner plays Shylock!!
"Does not a Werner bleed?"
ROTF
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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Ken M,
I have registered the name Lovegasoline on Supertopo for my exclusive use and as such it is the representation of a real person. Many readers and participants of this forum know me and my identity and read the malicious lies that you are spreading about me.
I ask you again to be a man, and to substantiate with facts the malicious comments that you are publically circulating about me.
I guess I add to your list of defaults, your general moral abuse of women.
After all, if you are making the assertion that doing the right thing is what "a man" does, then what does that leave for those that do wrong: I guess that would be women. Nice backhand insult to them.
Your assertions are archived in this thread, where you have posted your desires, your inclinations, your hopes for what happens with the OWS action.
Live with what you write.
Werner, if WBraun is not a variation of your legal name, then I don't know who you are.
Ol' gas does not have that luxury. Some may know him, but that is not a name he could sign a contract with. WBraun most certainly is. If your LEO friends came upon him doing something, and he only identified himself that way, he would be considered uncooperative....AS YOU KNOW.
Oh, and Werner, if you want someone to back off, talk to your buddy. Inasmuch as YOU are a member of the "establishment", you can prepare to be OCCUPIED. Why are you defending a scum troll?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 01:15am PT
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Interesting perspective on OWS by the Dean of UCLA Luskin School of Public Affairs:
Occupy: Flash Mob Politics or Social Movement?
by Frank Gilliam on October 9, 2011
Occupy
One of the most interesting and entertaining phenomena of this political season is the so-called “Occupy” trend. Started a few weeks ago by a group generally referred to as Occupy Wall Street, people have been gathering at city halls, corporate headquarters, and other institutions of power across the United States to protest a wide range of social and economic ills.
Journalists, pundits, celebrities, and politicians have been offering their views on these gatherings. Some, such as Rep. Eric Cantor, have criticized them for inciting Americans to turn against Americans. Others, like LA Mayor Antonio Villaragoisa have issued statements of support for the Occupy participants. Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain says the participants need to quit complaining about corporations and take individual responsibility for their employment status. Even President Obama has recognized Occupy as representing the sentiments of many Americans.
What everyone wants to know, it seems, is what is this all about? Do these gatherings represent anything significant or are they simply the shenanigans of the idle unemployed.
One way to think of this is what I call flash mob politics. As anyone under 30 knows, a flash mob is a group of people who assemble in a public place and act out some random performance. The “mobs” are organized by social media and other forms of electronic communication (email, Facebook, Foursquare, etc.) but with little or no apparent leadership. The first flash mob started in 2003 at Macy’s in Manhattan when a group of about 70 people gathered around the rug department with the ostensible purpose of shopping for a communal “love rug”.
Occupy certainly shares some of the elements of a flash mob – they assemble suddenly in public spaces, they utilize information technology to organize, and the gatherings often have a performative aspect to them (e.g., people sing, dance, chant, drum). Where Occupy differs, however, is that it has vaguely political undertones. In many instances the target of their wrath is corporate greed; other times it is the plight of the under/unemployed; sometimes the focus is on a specific issue like climate change, the Afghan war, or medical marijuana; and in yet other cases it is all of the above and more.
As a vehicle for long-term social and political change, however, flash mob politics has severe limitations. In other words, social networking and coordination may not be enough to produce significant changes in society. For instance, how long can Occupy maintain its activities without material resources? Likewise, Occupy will ultimately have to develop a core narrative that explains its preferred policy and action agenda. Finally, it is hard to imagine that Occupy will be able to sustain its efforts without a leadership structure and a “face” of the group.
What American history has shown is that a social movement is the type of group action that can lead to significant change. Perhaps the biggest difference between social movements and flash mobs is that social movements focus on a specific goal and issue area. Although they share some things with flash mob politics – informality, diffused communications channels, and a list of strains and grievances – they pay much more attention to the identification of resources, continuous leadership, and strategic political opportunities all wrapped into a core narrative structure.
An example of a potent social movement is the modern civil rights movement (1950-73). Its narrative was about America living up to its fundamental values; it had resources and a strong leadership structure through the black church and civil rights organizations like the SCLC, the NAACP, CORE, SNCC and even the black Panthers (I would remiss at this point if I did not recognize the passing of Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth – a key and unsung hero of the Movement); it had charismatic leaders (e.g., Martin Luther King, A. Phillip Randolph, Ella Baker); and it was able to take advantage of a number of significant political opportunities (e.g., black voting power; general economic prosperity; shifting party politics, and international freedom movements).
To this point, flash mob politics is not a social movement. To be sure, increasing numbers of Americans are experiencing the type of anomie or social dislocation that is often present when social movements arise. However, for the flash mob model to become a social movement it must develop a clear core story of social change. And it has to be something more than generalized discontent or a hodgepodge of grievances. It has to put forward a value proposition outlining what is at stake; it has to identify what the target problem is; and it has to forward a set of actionable remedies. Resources, leadership, and strategy then follow. Then, and only then, is significant change possible.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 02:37am PT
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Actually, Skip, what is ironic, is someone who screams about "the Gov't", and American institutions in general, when he doesn't like something, threatening using THE GOVT as his way of getting satisfaction.
I imagine he spits on the police, until he wants someone's car moved.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:21am PT
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I dunno, gas.
I posted my thoughts. You attacked me on that basis, calling names, etc. You never addressed my assertions, other than to call them names, too.
To me, and I spend a lot of time with people who acually do have advanced educations and intellect, when you can't attack a person's arguments with counter arguments and facts, you have declared that they were right, you have no legitimate argument, and that they have won.
Thanks! I appreciate that you have conceded.
This is the sort of thing that violence-favoring folks always end up doing. I fully expect the threats of violence against me to follow. That's ok. If the only language a person speaks is swahili, that is what they'll speak. In your case, it is the language of threats, provocations, belittling.
by the way, if this is how you argue with me, by abuse, a person that you assert is weaker than you, it fully would predict how you would react to what you must view as the "weaker" sex. You must be fun with a few drinks in you.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:44am PT
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Ken M
Los Angeles, Ca Nov 20, 2011 - 12:06am PT
It should not be forgotten that this act of using pepper spray is a source of great joy to the protesters.
I have been down to OWS sites, and have watched a number of confrontations on live video. Unfailingly, the protesters are as rude, provoking, and threatening as they think they can get away with, plus a little more.
Their goal is to provoke violence. They carry many many video cameras. I have seen things that I was personally at edited to appear considerably different.
They likely have provoked an incident that will result in damage to police careers (part of the 99%), and damage to the Chancellor's career (likely quite sympathetic to OWS).
They are turning the police against them, nationally. They are turning the Universities, a great natural ally, against them.
Why are Universities a TARGET? They are not part of corporations, nor of corrupt gov't. This is very sad.
Lovegasoline
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY Nov 20, 2011 - 12:36am PT
What we are seeing here is the true face of the USA.
We are witnessing the government's policy to use torture against its external enemies, now extended to a policy of using torture against its own citizens.Make no mistake about it: we are witnessing the government's torture of United States citizens for exercising their rights to free speech and peaceable assembly.
If you do not understand fascism, look carefully as this is its manifestation.
It will be justified, excused, spun, and legalized so as to confuse you as to what is up and what is down. Just like waterboarding the USA's prisoners isn't torture.
Make no mistake about what you are seeing at UC Davis.
DItto for UC Berkeley, Oakland, NYC, and elsewhere.
Note in the above, how he states that it is the POLICY OF THE GOVT to torture citizens. This presents a problem: If the Chancellor of the Univ was obeying the orders she was given (By Obama, I'd guess), then she is not really responsible. If there was an official policy of the Govt, it must be written somewhere. Where is it? There must be a whistleblower, someone, somewhere, who can point to this! where is Wikileaks????
Or perhaps she was not directed by superiors or a policy? It was on her head to have made the decision. Or.....the police actually made the decision, and she was not involved.
The movement that Gas identifies with calls for immediate resignation/removal. No investigation, no due process, no fact finding, no finding of truth. No identification of blame.
this is what disturbs me about this movement....the immediate leap to suspension of due process and protection of those who may be innocent of blame. This is the action of a mob.
How very very sad, for a movement that has some real potential.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:44am PT
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Ken M have you paid any attention to Skipt's MO and SOP?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:51am PT
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Lovegasoline
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY Nov 20, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
This was a peaceful protest in the American tradition.
.....................The tide has already turned and we have OWS to thank for it!
The 1% has already lost their control of our minds. Otherwise, they would not have to resort to the use of force and torture on the public. They have lost control of our minds and very soon they will lose control of the streets, because the streets is were this is all gonna go down.
They are at Bloomberg's house in NYC (for a tea party?) as I write this.
Here is the first clear threat of what he suggests is (and should) happen. The streets are where this is going go down. There is no way that can be interpreted as a call for peace. It is a call for violent revolution, clear as day.
Followed by the clear implication of forceable takeover of Bloomberg's house.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:53am PT
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What you smell Skipter is the sh#t drooling out of your fetid mind.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:56am PT
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RELEASE THE NAMES OF THE PIGS WHO PEPPER SPRAYED AND TORTURED THE STUDENTS
THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW WHO ITS DOMESTIC ENEMIES ARE
IN THE LOGIC OF HOMELAND SECURITY THESE TWO PIGS ARE TERRORISTS, THREATENING THE HEALTH, LIFE, SAFETY, AND LIBERTY OF AMERICANS THROUGH THE THREAT OF, AND USE OF, VIOLENCE
ARREST THEM, PLACE THEM ON TRIAL, CONVICT THEM, AND SENTENCE THEM TO LIFETIME SENTENCES
here is his next call for violation of civil rights. Doesn't bother with an investigation, have a pretend trial, already has them convicted and sentenced.
Why does he want the names, now? They will be obviously revealed at any trial. What is that needed for, a little street justice?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:01am PT
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Why are you such a defender and apologist for the Koch Brothers?
Why does the lawful exercise of citizen's rights frighten you so?
Why does the unlawful abuse and torture with chemical weapons of American citizens give you such glee? Why can't you comprehend simple language?
You are on the wrong side of history. But that is familiar terrain for you isn't it?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:01am PT
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If the powers that be cannot marginalize the protesters, cannot marginalize their protests to a tightly reduced message, cannot pin it on a single leader or leadership group to co-opt, buy-out, or discredit, cannot sequester them and/or herd them like cattle, cannot diminish their impact by interfering with their right to free speech, assembly, and petition, cannot shut them down by intimidating them by arrest and exaggerated charges, then they'll have no choice but to use violence to try to shut them down. But that's not going to work either.
The above was followed by the charming picture of the bull, roped by many ropes. What is going to happen to that bull? Slaughter is the clear implication. Fighting fire with fire, clearly. What part of non-violence is that emulating?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:04am PT
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As has become the norm of the police state the violence is coming from the PIGS not the protesters.
You are projecting your fear on to what you don't understand.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:05am PT
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Kevmn, since you have made yourself a mouthpiece and authority on the protest movement at UC Davis, can you please tell us some more in detail about what the protesters are and what they are protesting about specifically? Also, can you be more concrete and specific about the identity of the protesters. You've told us they are not students.
Also, why is the leadership of the school, now in hindsight, publically declaring their outrage at the abhorrent treatment of the peaceful protests and the assualt on their rights?
Thanks.
Here is an example of fabrication (telling lies). The leadership of the school did NOT declare outrage at "the assault on their rights." That is him manufacturing words that did not exist.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:06am PT
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Yes they did.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:08am PT
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Lovegasoline
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY Nov 20, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
.........
PS: The Nazi's too had a really resourceful and intelligent scheme for recycling homes within land controlled by the German Reich. And when that program was insufficient to meet demand, a resourceful program for recycling housing in the East. Lots of people complained but what do you expect from sore losers and whiners? And still whining 65 years later. Also, a dirty bunch of folks from what I've heard.
Now he is comparing the US Govt to Nazis. That is pretty far out.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:10am PT
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Look up Prescott Bush.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:15am PT
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Lovegasoline
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY Nov 20, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
Walking on wet grass is a bummer.
It makes me think of all those deeply inconvenienced white women who had to walk to the back of the bus when the (smelly) negroes took the front seats in protest.
And all those interrogators who have to now refrain from indulging in sadistic torture and have to use humane techniques. What's the point of even bothering being an interrogator these days now that all the fun has been taken out of it? Think of all those poor interrogator trainees who paid their dues and are now stuck in a career path where they can't torture.
Two interesting assertions, here. Note that in his earlier post, that it is the OFFICIAL POLICY of the Govt to torture citizens. But wait, in this verse, he admits that it is not! Contradiction!
The second is his historical fabrication. He totally ignores that it was interrogators who blew the whistle on the torture, and fought through the bureaucracy to make it stop. Interestingly, he reveals an assumption that interrogators are specifically trained as torturers...in other words, he reveals that HIS idea of effective interrogation IS torture. If fact, the FBI was highly critical of the torture in the war, and assert very strongly that it is NOT an effective way to get information.
But you can't help but think what is going to happen when his faction is doing the interrogations, since they'll want confessions and they'll want to be "effective." The chinese fascists have shown him the way to do this.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:19am PT
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Ken M you suffer from the same delusional comprehension that Skipt does.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:23am PT
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Lovegasoline
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY Nov 21, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
COINTELPRO (an acronym for Counter Intelligence Program) was a series of covert, and often illegal, projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic political organizations.
COINTELPRO tactics included discrediting targets through psychological warfare, planting false reports in the media, smearing through forged letters, harassment, wrongful imprisonment, extralegal violence and assassination. Covert operations under COINTELPRO took place between 1956 and 1971; however, the FBI has used covert operations against domestic political groups since its inception.The FBI's stated motivation at the time was "protecting national security, preventing violence, and maintaining the existing social and political order."
The program was successfully kept secret until 1971, when a group of left-wing radicals calling themselves the Citizens' Commission to Investigate the FBI burglarized an FBI field office in Media, Pennsylvania, took several dossiers, and exposed the program by passing this information to news agencies. Many news organizations initially refused to publish the information. Within the year, Director Hoover declared that the centralized COINTELPRO was over, and that all future counterintelligence operations would be handled on a case-by-case basis.
Here he is, celebrating the use of burglary as a tool. Most people consider burglary a violent crime.
Same technique used on Daniel Elsberg's psychiatrist.
Note that the burglers did NOT know that information was there...that was not why they broke in. It was simply an attack on the govt, they hit paydirt, and made the best of it.
I believe the argument is: The end justifies the means. Be careful of putting people in charge who believe that.
Covert operations under COINTELPRO took place between 1956 and 1971;
Note that he is using something that happened a LONG LONG time ago, to justify doing something against the gov't now.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 11:29am PT
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Passive resistance is not violence.
Except perhaps to donut stuffed, steroid raged, power crazed Piggies.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 11:33am PT
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Is this a surprise to you or justification.
Look if shoppers do it the why can't PIGS?
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 25, 2011 - 11:39am PT
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cops attempted to tea-bag students. students put their heads down, refusing. pepper-spraying ensues from pent-up, latent homosexual frustration. cop becomes laughing stock of every website imaginable, surrogate penis in hand.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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Eat PIG, the other white supremacist meat.
Pulled Pork in Pepper sauce.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Nov 25, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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Loves Gasoline has spent a great amount of time presenting valid and credible points of information, and facts, on this and other OWS threads. Personally, I appreciate his efforts, which are backed up with resource links, or else clearly stated as his(?) opinions.
Spinning a person's words, or simply making stuff up and attributing it to him, as some have done with LG posts, is a defense strategy of those who either know well they are in the wrong and are trying to obfuscate, or disillusioned by propoganda.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
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Without our 1st Amendment/Bill of Rights and our ability to peacefully protest, using non-violent civil disobedience, think Jesus, Gandhi, MLK, Howard Zinn, John Lennon etc. then we have nothing.
Yes, it will piss-off TPTB. That is the point.
The point is to wake up TPTB and to wake up the people of our Nation, the World, to the civil right loses and abuses, and to the social injustices, and to the insanity of those that have political power and economic power that hold everyone else down, and wield it corruptly.
Power to the People.
John Lennon-Power To The People-Offical Video-HQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtvlBS4PMF0
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
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Skippity do-da,
You forgot the full qoute . . .
Without our 1st Amendment/Bill of Rights and our ability to peacefully protest, using non-violent civil disobedience, think Jesus, Gandhi, MLK, Howard Zinn, John Lennon etc. then we have nothing.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 25, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
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The UC Davis brats were unlawful, not violent. Both are actionable by LEO.
You may argue that the LEO should have just 'removed' them peacefully, but I'd argue that could have gone very bad. In typical brat fashion, they would have leg-dragged, flailed about, and probably injured themselves.
If a cop tells you to disperse or else...you'd have to be a fool not to do so. You cannot have protesters behaving this way. After letting them do their stupid protest, they were instructed that enough was enough. Time to disperse. They disobeyed LEO instructions.
You cannot do that in this society without consequence.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 25, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
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the cops are always right,
don't buck the System.
lay down and crawl like sheep.
obey your master.
this is a slow news week,
i mean the Watts riots, 100 blocks of LA completely torched, snipers on roof tops shooting cops,
it took major rex applegate to organize the riot police in order to stop that one.
pepper spray?
bad, but not like watts or detroit city rock city.
has anybody ever been to a KISS concert?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
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Sprock, let me know when you get into my perimeter down here again. We got slabs to hike in Devil's Canyon and Aquarian, Bra!!!!
Over and out...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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Skip and BASE,
I'm going climbing. I'll be quick.
You guys don't know your Bible.
Jesus constantly made the TPTB in the Jewish faith and as well as the Temple High Priests in Jerusalem, and King Herod of Antipas of the Roman Government et al., up-set, mad, put them on the spot and he called them out constantly speaking truth to power, so much so they conspired to kill him and they did. They hated what he had to say and the threat to their corrupt authority. They hated him.
They were very envious of his truth, his message, and his supernatural powers over nature, and his ability to relate to the people in truth, without violence and an iron fist, but with love, peace and compassion.
He was a constant threat to their corrupt power and authority. They plotted constantly against him. Jesus was an awesome public debater. They could never fool him. He knew their hearts and thoughts. He used their own words against them. Jesus is the best example anyone could ask for on how to live our lives. That was the purpose of his life was to give us a model on how to be Holy and how to live, and then he took our place on the cross and died to save us. He loves us with his life. But he is the conqueror of death. "Death where is thy sting?"
He was all about peaceful protest. He was all about civil disobedience. They asked him by what authority does he do the things he does? They also asked him to stop doing it. He didn't. You can't stop the truth and how to live right, no matter who asks you to do so.
We Christians know there is a limit to what the government can ask us to do and that we will comply. If Obama or another asks me to stop worshipping GOD, I won't. If they ask me to worship a man or idol I won't. If they try to take my Bible away from me I will resist. If they ask me to deny Jesus Christ I won't. If they ask me to go against the 10 Commandments, I will not purposefully do so (I might screw up accidentally now and then because I'm human, but there is forgiveness). If they ask me to accept any kind of sin as a way of life I won't. If they ask me to implant or take a mark so that I can't buy or sell without it, I won't. I would take death instead, if it ever comes to that. At some point in our future it will come to that. I don't know when that will be. I'm not looking forward to that period of time. The Book of Revelation goes into great detail about that awful period of time. It's coming.
Jesus Christ's death on the Cross by the Roman Government did two things: it proved the corruption of man's rule and government, he was innocent and blame-less and without sin, but like a cosmic 4D chess game that was prophesied thousands of years before in the word of GOD that it would happen just as it did, GOD used the opportunity to die for the sins of the World, thereby giving salvation to mankind for those who ask freely of him and then follow him. He also established his Church and his Kingdom. He's coming back to make it all right. However, he has given mankind time to make up their minds and to chose who they will serve.
Will you serve Lucifer or will you serve Jesus Christ? You can't serve two masters. I choose the Creator and my father GOD, and his son Jesus Christ.
He was/is Emmanuel, GOD with us. He will be back. He won't be so nice to those who are evil the 2nd time around. Chose wisely.
We have a right and an obligation to stand up and protest corruption and social injustice and the loss of our civil rights and to do so peacefully and to use civil disobedience. Yes, it can come at a cost. GOD expects nothing less from us. GOD is against corruption and social injustice. He expects us to stand against it and to call it out, and to help those less fortunate.
"What does it profit a man to gain the whole World but to lose his soul?"
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
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Skip,
They are not asking for the government to pay for student loans. They are asking for social justice. They are asking to make things right.
TPTB can spent Trillions of dollars for War, and to bail-out Banks, and then with our money!, yet they can't provide decent social services like health care, affordable education, jobs, livable wages, etc. etc. etc. the list goes on and on.
This is what the entire OWS and Occupy college campuses is all about.
It is about social justice. It is about doing the right thing for people. It is about the rich holding down the poor. It is an on-going corrupt condition of the humankind that has been going on for thousands of years and people are tired of it in our era and in our time of history.
It is wrong. If you can't see it, then GOD help you.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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Nice posts, Base104
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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You may argue that the LEO should have just 'removed' them peacefully, but I'd argue that could have gone very bad. In typical brat fashion, they would have leg-dragged, flailed about, and probably injured themselves.
Not necessarily so:
Compared to the reported mayhem (and journalist beatdowns) in New York today -- where Occupy Wall Street is orchestrating a similar day of action against America's financial institutions -- the Los Angeles arrests were pretty mellow, according to witnesses at the scene. Still very emotional, though, as protesters were carried off, one by one, by LAPD officers in riot gear.
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/11/lapd_arrests_23_occupy_la_protesters.php
Give them turkeys not pepper spray!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/lapd-gives-occupy-la-protesters-thanksgiving-turkeys.html
Beck occupies a unique position in the world of Occupy protests and is one of the only Police Chiefs in the country to establish a relationship with protesters that is based on respect and dignity.
Los Angeles stands alone in its deferential handling of the Occupy LA protest, demonstrating a commitment to the constitutional rights of the protesters that is in stark contrast to the violent behavior in cities such as Davis, Portland, Oakland, and New York City.
http://soapboxla.blogspot.com/
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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I'm sorry, in the grand scheme of things being pepper sprayed in order to get your student loans paid for is definitely worth it.
There you go again Fetus Eater.
When you choose to stop lying your words may have some value.
As of now they are maggoty sh#t bombs.
You are Vile and so far from Christian moral teachings that Jebus himself would kick your worthless self so bad you'd be wearing your ass for a hat.
BASE 104, great posts, very reasoned, very articulate.
Sadly wasted on the mouth breathing flat Earthers of FoX viewers.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
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!3 million to redress grievances is a small price to pay and much less than the tax payers money wasted by the Republican goon squad of hypocrites who went on a White House witch hunt for blow jobs.
Are you attempting to make a point FrogFart?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 25, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
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Well, the Occupyers may get their wish soon. With the foreordained failure of the so-called bipartisan debt reduction panel (more Republican intransigence/fantasy), won't the Bush tax cuts for the rich automatically cease to be in force at the end of the year?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
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But the Truth will set you Free.
Try it sometime.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 25, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
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The 2 year extension of the tax cuts the Kenyan Musim President Obama signed into law expire in thirteen months, at the end of 2012.
The "automatic" cuts, across the board, are scheduled to take effect at the same time, in January of 2013.
So, congress now has over a year to come to some agreement themselves to reduce the national debt some 1.5 trillion dollars, and if they don't, then the automatic cuts happen.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
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Why don't we line up the RepubliCant congress and pepper spray them till they move. Their resistance is violence to America and Americans.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 25, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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I bet the "Kenyan Musim President" is back in office next election. Did you watch the, hahah, Repulican Debates? Seriously, who do they have? Seriously?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 25, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
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Bachman/Perry
2012
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 25, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
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I like Mitt the Mormom with his mannequin gaze and fiberglass hair. So resolute and steely in his endless, fish-out-of-water flipflopping. You guys have to do better than that....maybe the Salamander Gingrich, who was getting bj's from a non-spouse while trying to impeach a president who was getting bj's froma non-spouse...lol
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
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The Newt-erd one.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
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Next to FuX Noise it is his favorite show.
Even though he doesn't get it and misinterprets it all the time.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 25, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
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a muppet would be a better candidate than anyone presented so far.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
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Good for her Sully.
Authority needs to be held accountable.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
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Klimmer,
The banks paid the money back. And, social justice is a socialist dream.
The evil one
Fattrad,
Social justice is GOD's desire and GOD's will. It will happen whether you like it or not in the long run. Things won't continue indefinately as they are now. GOD will destroy Lucifer's NWO. GOD's Millennium is coming and it will be a 1000 years of social justice and peace -- Theocracy from the seat of GOD in Jerusalem. And then following that period of time, the Great Judgement will occur of all mankind.
I long-fully look forward to that very peaceful time here on Earth. I wish it were right now. But we have some serious darkness to go through before the dawn.
But in the mean time, we are to still do the right thing always and to fight for social justice and to tell people the truth. We are not to accept injustice and lie down in the face of corrupt opposition to doing the right thing.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
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Klimmer,
The protestors are specifically asking for their student loans paid for. Why the heck do you think they were sitting in the middle of a college campus, blocking the way and demanding to be heard?
I have another question: Do you think the Nazi's, the Communists, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, Ahemdindjad,...
Would ever have "teamed up" with Jesus?
And, more importantly, he with them?
He didn't even like the money changers at the Temple. And, unlike you, I don't think he and the terrorists, Nazi's, and anarchists would have gotten along all that much...
Just sayin'
Skip
Skippy,
That is not why the college occupy protesters are protesting. They are fighting for Social Justice, and affordable education is a big part of that cause.
No. Those who listen to Lucifer and hate, kill, do violence, lie, steal and who are corrupt etc. for whatever purposes have nothing to do with GOD, Jesus Christ. No matter by what name they go by or call themselves. "You will know them by the fruit they bare."
And likewise he has nothing to do with them.
Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. It isn't GOD's way. (Don't confuse what took place in the Old Testament with the New Testament. GOD was cleaning house in the Old Testament. He had to rid the Earth of, and cleanse the bloodline of Mankind from the Fallen Angels and their evil offspring, the Nephilim.)
Are you trying to equate and call OWS and Occupy College Campuses with Nazis and Terrorists? Get real dude.
The 99% are you and me. They are the young through the very old. They are normal and average citizens of the USA who love their country. They are calling out the wrong, the corruption, the greed, and the social injustice of the 1%ers and those like them.
I mean, you can feel free to discuss it, there is nothing wrong with that. But, to tell everyone else God want's us to impose "social justice" at the point of a gun is nutty.
Where does GOD demand Social Justice at the point of a gun? That is not what Jesus Christ taught us to do nor is it how he lived his life.
Not everyone who calls themselves Christians, or call themselves "of GOD" are.
They have to do the will of GOD as found in The Bible. The Bible does not advocate violence or killing. GOD's message, Jesus Christ's message is a message of peace, love, and caring for others. Once again, "You will know them by the fruit they bare."
There are indeed many hypocrites out there. And just like Jesus called them out when he walked on Earth for 33 or so years, he calls them out also today. GOD isn't fooled, so neither should you be.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 09:53pm PT
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But, to tell everyone God want's us to impose "social justice" at the point of a gun is nutty.
The only nutter saying anything that stupid is you fetus eater.
You rearrange words and add others to fit your delusion.
You have been corrected and brought to task hundreds of times. Yet rather than admitting you are wrong you go on attack and repeat the same BS. And then whine like a spoiled child that everyone is piling up on you.
You are the least liked, least appreciated poster on ST.
And you believe everyone else is wrong.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 10:05pm PT
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Gud Gawd you jebus blower you are so deluded it is laughable.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 25, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
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Skiptotheloodipt the great ecumenical scholar.
HAHAHAHAHA!
The problem with Christianity is cuckold cretins like you perverting the message.
If you grow up you might make it to be an excretion.
And that would be a world of improvement.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
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That is not why the college occupy protesters are protesting. They are fighting for Social Justice, and affordable education is a big part of that cause.
When Jesus was in front of Pontius Pilot he never lectured him on social Justice.
You keep saying this as if it is true. It isn't. At least there are no records of it.
It may be true to you. I respect that. Feel free to believe anything you want. But, respect that it isn't what many believe Christ's message to be.
In fact, many believe you water down the message by shifting responsibility of taking care of the poor and needy onto a few people. In this case, the 1%. (Who by the way already pay the bulk of Income tax in this country. Which makes the OWS message so convoluted.)
There is ZERO evidence that Jesus ever asked for Rome to take care of the poor.
In this country we do take care of the poor. We should do a better job. Unfortunately, we have morons sitting on sidewalks, willing to be pepper sprayed for "affordable education," getting in the way, screaming at everyone that they are the message. They aren't.
Skip
Skippy, Skippy, Skippy . . .
Read a Bible sometime. Go get a free Gideon Bible from a hotel or motel dresser drawer and read it.
Here is just one simple example and there are many, many more.
GOD, Jesus Christ has much to say regarding wealth and what to properly do with it throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament. There is a right way to be wealthy. You are to share it and help others. Whole books are written on this subject, looking at the word of GOD, and what GOD has to say about it.
Yes, the greedy rich do not like hearing this and often turn away from GOD and those in need . . .
Matthew 19:16-31 (KJV)
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[22] But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[24] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[25] When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[26] But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
[27] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
[30] But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Luke 12:48
"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
Here are good articles on wealth and helping the poor from a Biblical perspective . . .
What does the Bible say about money and wealth?
http://www.twopaths.com/faq_money.htm
What Does the Bible Say about Generosity and Duty to the Poor?
http://www.twopaths.com/faq_generosity.htm
The Bible on the Poor or, Why God is a liberal
http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html
A correct Christian attitude toward wealth . . .
What is the right way to be rich?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow_qrK655C4&feature=related
Songs of social justice by The Fixx:
The FIXX: "How Much is Enough?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xcuGBQWswg
The FIXX: "No One Has to Cry"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dlhTr9H50
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
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SkipttyDippty the bible thumper gets thumped by the bible. Priceless!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 25, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
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“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give it to those who would not”
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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Riley,
So let me get this straight.
So you're calling GOD and Jesus Christ stupid? And those who believe in him and know him stupid?
You exist because of GOD. You love because of GOD. You enjoy the things you enjoy, ie climbing, because of GOD. The fact that you have any morals at all is because of GOD and his laws. The fact that you might care about others is because of GOD.
You might just want to show a little respect.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 12:59am PT
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Klimmer with all due respect he didn't say anything of the kind about God Or Jesus.
Rather he decried the process of religious indoctrination.
Take the cretins of the Westburro Baptist church as an example of what he is referring to.
God is not religion. God is spirit. Man with all his failings makes religion, for better or worse.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 26, 2011 - 01:35am PT
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Skippy,
There are many, many examples from the Old Testament where GOD directs Kings of Nations to care for and to provide for their citizens that they watch over and to do the right and noble thing for all. Social justice.
Look at the story of Joseph in Egypt. People and Nations would come for help from long distances due to droughts and lack of food, and the Nation of Egypt through Joseph provided due to their abundance in food and resources, and having done proper preparation for hard times. GOD told Joseph through dreams to do so and to prepare for the coming hardships. And as a result Egypt at the time prospered, but it did well for other Nations too. Egypt took care of them.
Rome was a very powerful, ruthless, brutal, and greedy Nation/City on the whole face of the Earth at that time. Interesting how Jesus Christ came to Earth during that Nation's corrupt rule. It speaks volumes to our period of time and to our Nation.
It didn't fare well for ancient Rome. It was destroyed from within due to its own corruption, immorality, and greed.
What are the 2 Great Commandments that all of GOD's Laws hang upon?
--- To love the Lord thy GOD with all your heart, mind, and soul.
--- And the second is like unto it, to love and to treat others as you love and treat yourself. The Golden Rule.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 26, 2011 - 02:12am PT
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STUDENT editorial in the UCLA Daily Bruin excerpt:
The Occupy movement has become more about the violence taking place than the goal these protesters were initially fighting for. Even at UCLA the attention has been more focused on those arrested during the Wilson Plaza and Wilshire protests rather than the ideals of the movement.
“Protesting and being angry won’t solve the problem of the wealth inequality, a real diffence must be made,” said Peter Lewis, a second-year chemical engineering student.
These protesters have drawn massive media attention to their cause, a great feat indeed, but now what? The top 1 percent will not be so quick to change their ways – not after years of comfortably living in this society.
Protesters should be trying to take steps to improve the future of society instead of attempting an all-out war. The best attempt would be for these protesters to solidify a political identity for themselves. In less than a year, the Tea Party grew from a sect of the Republican party to its own entity. Now, candidates are altering their positions to appeal to these Tea Party voters.
If the Occupy movement can unite to form a political machine, candidates and the government would have no choice but to change their stances in order to appease the 99 percent.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 26, 2011 - 08:45am PT
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lol, he was even wearing his leather jacket when he jumped that f*#ker...
shouldn't somebody's face be superimposed over the Fonz's? that seems to be de riguer on here...
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:03am PT
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NO SkiptSquat that is just another Hebrew "Cry for our victim-ness Myth".
The Jews of that time were known as the Hyksos and they were invaders and occupiers. At first they took advantage of the disintegrated nature of the Egyptian state. The indigenous Egyptians appreciated the stability the outside rulers initially brought. Eventually Their reign became oppressive and totalitarian. They were eventually driven out and the country purged of all their influence. The notion that they were slaves is total myth. They were the enslavers. And they were hated for it. But true to Jewish tradition they perverted truth to their pathetic victimized narrative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Hyksos
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/joseph.htm
Sorry to burst your BS bubble but the truth of history is there to those willing to open their eyes and free themselves of the Zionist narrative.
quote]I like reading the bible for what it is.[/quote]
And what is the BIBLE? Please don't try and say it is the undeniable word of GAWD. Because it isn't.
At best it is a loose interpretive historical narrative written for political influence by fallible men.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:22am PT
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Guess who is a fetus eater, a homophobe and a gimp hater?
When Skip grows up he wants to have a penis.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:28am PT
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There is not one shred of archeological evidence that the Hyksos/Hebrews were slaves in Egypt.
A blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly from the regions of the East invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land. By main force they easily overpowered the rulers of the land; they then burned our cities ruthlessly and razed to the ground the temples of the gods and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility -- massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others ..... (Author and Egyptian Priest Manetho)
Hey Lil Skipper, what is the definition of Semite?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:17am PT
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Not wanting to corrupt the pepper spray thread with more religious twaddle, but...
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/hyksos.html
And further provision was made for the poor. There is nothing, after their recognition of the claims of God, that more distinguishes the laws given by Moses than the liberal, tender, and hospitable spirit enjoined toward the poor. Although God had promised greatly to bless His people, it was not His design that poverty should be wholly unknown among them. He declared that the poor should never cease out of the land. There would ever be those among His people who would call into exercise their sympathy, tenderness, and benevolence. Then, as now, persons were subject to misfortune, sickness, and loss of property; yet so long as they followed the instruction given by God, there were no beggars among them, neither any who suffered for food.
The law of God gave the poor a right to a certain portion of the produce of the soil. When hungry, a man was at liberty to go to his neighbor's field or orchard or vineyard, and eat of the grain or fruit to satisfy his hunger. It was in accordance with this permission that the disciples of Jesus plucked and ate of the standing grain as they passed through a field upon the Sabbath day.
Why are you so anti-Christian?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:23am PT
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Tell us again why you deride gimps?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 26, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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Skippy I can see you don't want it to be true but it is.
There is great secular pressure to invalidate the Bible. Because if you can invalidate GOD's word, well then, it must all be a myth and not true. GOD doesn't exist. Its all fantasy.
But, as times goes on, more and more archeological evidence and other empirical evidence supports the Bible's truth, even the recent discovery of Bible Code. Even Newton looked for it, knew it had to exist, because the Bible even hints about it, but he didn't find it. It was meant for our time with the advent of the computer, near the last days of this era of time. It's not the end, but a change, a New Beginning (The Millennium is coming) . . .
There are many who do not want the Hebrews/the Jews to be proven to have been enslaved in Egypt and that the Exodus told in the Old Testament is true. But they were, and the Exodus did happen.
But the real big truth that you are missing is the fact that GOD indeed expects us to abide by the 2 Great Commandments. And we are our Brother's Keeper. In fact, many would argue that the entire Bible is about doing the right thing and being our Brother's Keeper and taking care of others out of love and our personal abundance and wealth, or not, so then giving what we can afford even if it isn't much. That goes for governments too. That is what the entire Bible is about from beginning to end. A return to GOD, living our lives properly and doing the right thing. That completely includes being our Brother's Keeper, taking care of others less fortunate or in need. Governments rise and fall by what they do or don't do morally and ethically. GOD sees to it. Those Governments that obey GOD and do right by their people and other nations prosper. Turn your back on GOD and do evil and that nation will fall.
Skippy, read your Bible. Its all there and its true.
Two good articles on the evidence that the Hebrews/the Jews were indeed enslaved and that the Exudus did happen:
2 different views both very interesting . . .
The Date of the Exodus: 1440 BC
Pharaoh who killed Hebrew children: Amuntotep I: 1526-1505 BC
Pharaoh's Daughter who adopted Moses: Hatshepsut: 1520 BC
Pharaoh of Moses' flight to Midian: Thutmoses II/Hatshepsut: 1492-1479 BC
Pharaoh of the Exodus: Thutmoses III: 1479/1458 - 1425 BC
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-date-1440bc.htm
Is there evidence of the Exodus from Egypt?
http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/exodus_egypt.php
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
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I think it is much funnier.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
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Back to the point of this thread...
Abuse of power by the COPS.
What about my suggestion that all LEOs get tested for steroid use and abuse and fired if caught?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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Locker that is the grimmest picture of Fattrad imaginable.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 26, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
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Hey Skipt, why are you hating on Fred Astaire?
He was a life long Conservative Republican after all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Astaire
Politically, Astaire was a conservative and a lifelong Republican Party supporter,[42] though he never made his political views publicly known.[43] Along with Bing Crosby, George Murphy, Ginger Rogers and others he was a charter (founding) member of the Hollywood Republican Committee.[44] He was churchgoing, supportive of American military action and was dismissive of the more open sexiness of movies in the 1970s.[43]
Your kind of man I would think. Except for his abundant talent, skill and intelligence which is sadly lacking in Conservative Republicants of today. Oh now I get it, it's because of his talent, skill and intelligence.
What's on FoX?
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Nov 27, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
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Dear Ken M.,
I apologize for not fully understanding all of what you have said thus far. I am having some trouble understanding you completely.
I am trying to find out how you define the U.S.A. as to what runs it. What is it that is the reason for government, *what* does it represent?
In your very own words and personal opinion is there or is there not a place for peaceful protest?
And, what did you think of the civil war, where violent *protest* was used. Is violence ever an option in your own personal opinion?
Thanks,
DJP
PS Sorry again that I am asking the question. Can you give me a little help here?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 28, 2011 - 12:31am PT
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That's fattrad on the gas...RJ
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 28, 2011 - 10:38am PT
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And interesting perspective.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/if-the-social-protest-dies-out-israel-to-see-a-new-feudalism-1.398151
Published 02:44 28.11.11Latest update 02:44 28.11.11
If the social protest dies out, Israel to see a new feudalism
The U.S. has a tradition of civil protests that lead to significant changes: women's suffrage, equal rights for blacks, pulling out of Vietnam. There is reason to fear a social protest that is rapidly catching on. In Israel there has yet to be a social protest that led to a policy change.
By Merav Michaeli
Full text below.
After being arrested when helping nonviolent demonstrators to realize their freedom of expression and their right to protest, the well-known writer Naomi Wolf discovered that freedom of expression and protest in America is not what it used to be ("The shocking truth about the suppression of protest in the United States," by Naomi Wolf, The Guardian, November 27.)
In addition, she discovered that in violation of U.S. law, the Department of Homeland Security advised 18 cities as to how to suppress this protest. In fact the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations were suppressed with pepper spray, beatings and arrests, which led Wolf to wonder why such a popular, hapless protest led the federal government to react with such violence.
She discovered that although the media described the Wall Street protest as unfocused, its demands are actually very focused on three legislative changes that are highly threatening to legislators and their allies: limiting the sums of money that interested parties can donate to candidates in elections, a reform in the banking system that will prevent fraud and manipulations for which small depositors pay the price, and canceling the ability of members of Congress to legislate laws concerning corporations in which they have investments. According to Wolf this third demand is the most threatening, since more and more Congressmen entered the political system as members of the middle class and emerged very wealthy - and she claims they have no intention of endangering that.
Here too, the elected exploit their status to enrich themselves and their friends. The list of MKs and ministers who have become wealthy - or at least well-off - is a long one, and here they are doing it even though it is in violation of the law.
Changes in legislation won't improve our situation. Civil servants also exploit their status to enrich those who will soon be giving them the tools to enrich themselves. The list of CEOs, senior executives and advisers of tycoons impressively coincides with the list of former regulators and senior government officials. Therefore, here too both groups are interested in seeing the socioeconomic protest disappear.
But here there is no need for violence. In the United States there is a tradition of civil protests, which have led to significant changes: women's suffrage, equal rights for blacks, pulling out of Vietnam. There is reason to fear a social protest that is rapidly catching on. In Israel there has yet to be a social protest - peaceful or violent - that led to a policy change. From the Black Panthers to the encampments this summer, in Israel the protests are only another tool with which the government can divide and rule. The government managed to split even the most recent protest, which clung to solidarity, and presented it as a hostile factor with vested interests.
In this way the Israeli controllers of money and power can simply ignore one tenth of the population, which took to the streets to express a heartfelt protest about life that is becoming increasingly hard and burdensome here - and neither their power nor their money will suffer. Also thanks to the media, which may have provided broad coverage of the protest when it was too big to ignore, but is once again describing it as unfocused at best and bizarre at worst. The media moguls are also among those who find it convenient to exploit the majority for the benefit of their own wealth.
Yale anthropologist Prof. David Graeber claims that capitalism is falling apart, and the only question is what will follow it: a system of authoritarian rule of minorities over the majority, or "a genuine democratic system, in which we will all have a genuine opportunity to decide?" ("Capitalism is based on constant growth, and we have reached the limit," Asher Schechter, TheMarker Hebrew website, November 26 ).
In Israel, already now the system is National Capitalism. If the social protest really does die out as did its predecessors, Israel will probably be the first country in which the concept "neofeudalism" will turn from an expression used by leftist economic philosophers to the name of the type of regime practiced in it: Neo-National-Feudalism.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 28, 2011 - 11:38am PT
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There must be space for civil disobedience on our campus.
That's funny. It's not disobedience if it's legal and allowed.
Dave
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Sep 26, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/09/uc-davis-pepper-spray.html
UC to pay nearly $1 million in UC Davis pepper-spray settlement
The University of California will pay damages of $30,000 to each of the 21 UC Davis students and alumni who were pepper-sprayed by campus police during an otherwise peaceful protest 10 months ago, the university system announced Wednesday.
The agreement, which must still be approved in federal court, also calls for UC to pay a total of $250,000 to the plaintiffs’ attorneys and set aside a maximum of $100,000 to pay up to $20,000 to any other individuals who join the class-action lawsuit by proving they were either arrested or directly pepper-sprayed, a university statement said.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Sep 26, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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Is Fattrad still banned? I wish he could see this.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Sep 26, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
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He'd float the river denial even if he could....
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 26, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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UC to pay a total of $250,000 to the plaintiffs’ attorneys
I wonder how many they had. If there were 10 then the payout was better for the sprayees.
This would then be another case of parasitic moochers getting more from the state than hard working practitioners.
Ow, I just got something in my eye.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 24, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
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http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/10/24/pepper-spray-officer-uc-davis-john-pike-compensation?hpt=hp_t3
You might not know John Pike by name, but you'd likely recognize him from the video that made him famous -- or more accurately, infamous.
Now widely known as the "Pepper Spray Cop," thanks to the viral video that earned him his notoriety, the former UC Davis police officer was filmed casually firing off pepper spray at close range into the faces of seated Occupy protesters during a November 18, 2011, rally on the northern California school's campus.
Pike might have lost his job over the incident, but he's now being awarded more than $38,000 as a result of it.
An administrative law judge ruled last week that the University of California must pay Pike $38,055.79 (don't forget the 79 cents) in workers' compensation for the depression and anxiety he suffered as a result of the video's popularity.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Oct 24, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
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I dunno, this image might be worth 38k to me.
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