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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 17, 2011 - 10:55am PT
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I know most people think this is a dead issue, and most have already made up their mind and refuse to approach the issue with an open mind. The implications are frightening I'll admit. But I ask people - especially if you haven't watched any of the various longer versions of the movie - to watch this short clip on the collapse of the World Trade Center number 7.
Politicians say it was caused by office fires. Scientists say by controlled demolition. Who do you trust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw
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sempervirens
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:04am PT
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I don't know what to believe about the whole 9-11 affair. But I do believe we have not gotten the full story. As for Building 7, I've heard this explantaion. There were some very large gas tanks (natural gas and/or propane I think...?) at the bases of several of the WTC buildings. They caught fire at the bases of the large towers and the fire spread undergound amongst all these tanks. When those under building seven finally exploded later in the afternoon of that day building seven collapsed. Plausible. Truth...?
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:12am PT
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Sempervirens-
That was diesel storage tanks for emergency power generation under building 7.
Sure, that could make a 47 story steel building with a floor area roughly equal to the (SF) Bankamerica building and the Trans-america pyramid combined collapse in 7 seconds.....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:26am PT
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That was diesel storage tanks for emergency power generation under building 7.
The original FEMA report on WTC 7 tried to say that the diesel gas was an accelerator. After the report was released, it basically got laughed out of existance by anybody with any type of engineering degree. The job of explaining WTC 7 was quickly handed over to NIST.
They did very "scientific" studies and created computer models showing how WTC 7 collapsed. It's all there for you to read.
However, you cannot check their "proof," the data they used to determine WTC 7 collapsed by office fires is under lock and key. So the scientific method, where you can check the "proofs" and rerun the computer models, is thrown out the window. Nobody can check their work.
Nothing fishy there.
Oh, and Appendix C of the original FEMA report talks about the melted iron found at the site. They show pictures and all. The NIST report completely ignores this part of the FEMA report.
The Believers will never address these points.
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fosburg
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:34am PT
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I think WTC 7 is the "magic bullet" of 9/11 even more that the "757" hitting the Pentagon. The bottom line seems to be that a huge number of people have allowed themselves to be dumbed down so far that they don't even believe their own eyes or trust their own powers of reason.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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"people ask me, 'is there a smoking gun?' last i counted, there were about 45 of them." -- david ray griffin
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:52am PT
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The Bush Cheney Cabal hung the sword of Damocles over the heads of NIST. They were threatened with draconian budget cuts and huge personnel loses if they didn't play ball and lie to America ala Colin Powell.
Face it your OWN government pulled the biggest "false flag" of all time on America.
And then look at the Hell they created.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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Building 7 was not taken down by a controlled demolition
That is a Fact
There are many other possibilities for it falling
Specifically, the debris from the falling Twin Towers fatally injured the foundation, and the diesel fires finished it off.
Fire has taken down many steel Buildings, its a fallacy that fire doesn't weaken steal
Dear Doctor, how do you know that it was not taken down by controlled demolition? You state this as "fact," but you have zero proof.
The specifics that you give were thrown out by NIST as causes. Why do you think they did that?
If you don't believe the NIST report, which you contradict in your statements, then why would NIST lie? Doesn't their lying mean something to you?
Guess not.
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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everyone one of those engineers is wearing a tin foil hat.
I mean just look at them.
they even look like kooks.
nothing to see here folks... move along. trust your government. certainly we all agree they are the ones we put in power for a reason. because we trust them with all aspects of our lives.
/irony
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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,,GOOD GAWD!!!good greif,,,and good golly waLLY! PLUS A GREAT GOOGILY MOOGILY! It's about time some thing intelligible came out of your pie hole. lol
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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The engineers and scientists not only have tin foil hats, they have pocket protectors! And slide rules! Proof that they're part of the conspiracy.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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apogee
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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Within the human psyche lies a never-ending heap of highly-combustible irrational fear...all it takes is a spark, and the flames erupt again!
Thanks for this thread.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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i volunteered for richard gage for a year or so. his web page has a current count of those he's been able to convince:
http://www.ae911truth.org/
i can vouch for one thing, these are hard numbers. the 1600 architects and engineers are real professionals--he vets every one of them. what i found very interesting was some of the statements made. so many professionals figured they weren't expert enough in this "area"--in this case, steel-framed high-rises--to make the judgement. then they realized, after taking a closer look, how thin the government story is.
gage is probably the only technical figure of any prominence in this aspect of 9/11 truth, and he guards his role so jealously that i eventually tired of working with him. however, he is totally credible. he has long experience as an architect dealing with large steel-framed structures, albeit relatively low-rise, and he has also worked extensively in construction management. the issues involving building 7 and the other WTC buildings are not that difficult to understand. the government story is a complete snow job.
when gage speaks--yes, generally sympathetic audiences (who else would listen?)--he takes a poll before and after. of those who don't believe or aren't sure, he gets a 90 percent conversion rate, at least to the point where they think there ought to be a much more credible investigation. he actually began his activism with fellow architects in bay area firms where he worked. he was able to convince just about every one of them. but he has to have an hour--you have to sit down, take a good look at it, look at the reasoning, hear the rebuttals. no one will debate him.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
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Here's how it works.
There's nothing wrong with the engineers, nor NIST nor all the other so called experts.
But when you have a select key individual/individuals putting a gun to their heads or clamping them down your truth will be nothing.
Then public hears "looky here these are the experts and they know".
Just see the drooling public lap it up and believe everything their told by the controlled experts .....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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Sounds a bit like YOSAR, doesn't it? :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
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Dr F -- "That could Never Happen"
Famous last words .....
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
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I was there and saw most of it.
The entire NYC Fire Department was in shock after watching nearly 350 of their members disappear in the horror. When they knew there was no one in the 7WTC, they simply let it go. A relatively minor fire was allowed to consume the entire building. As simple as that. No controlled demo. No conspiracy. They were emotionally and physically spent. Any energy they had was in a futile effort to locate survivors across Vesey Street in the perimeter.
The 7 collapsed in the evening. Hours after. There’d been explosions all day and this was simply one more.
Fact is, the NYC “bunker” was in the basement of the 7. As well as a telecom switching station. The building was only finished in the ‘90s IIRC. The collapse of the 7WTC also sheered the façade off a Community College annex which is only getting repaired now a couple of blocks from where I am atm.
The building I was in, the 6WTC, was between the collapsed tower and the 7WTC which was across the street. Much of the 6WTC was still standing after until it was torn down about 3 months later. So a much closer building is still standing and one further away was allowed to collapse. So there will always be this suspicion to casual observers. But the buildings inside the GZ perimeter got the hoses. Try and cool it down to get at possible survivors.
The government hasn’t helped themselves with the wall of secrecy that the government traditionally shrouds any of its less than stellar performances. Like the non WMD in Iraq. They want their pensions. They just slap down all questions by screaming about the dead. It will always be that way until some sort of system of accountability is installed.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 17, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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Just a side note here (as an engineer with some background in structural, I don't buy the conspiracy, controlled demo tin foil bs)...Architects are about as qualified to comment on structural analysis of steel frame as I am to comment on circuit design for computer chips. I might have some vague idea of how it works and the names of parts, but would be completely ignorant of the details and specifics.
Having to work with architects daily, I have a pretty low opinion of their "skillset" such as it is. Pre industrial revolution the architect/engineer was rolled into one position called a "master builder", since the late 19th when modern structural analysis methods were developed, the field is subset of civil engineering. So archictects are basically sketch artists with a penchant for metrosexual eyewear.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 17, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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Congrats on accepting that credible source Dr F, 100% redeemed my ass. "John Duffield, Mountain climber New York" has exactly ONE post. This is it below:"
Nov 17, 2011 - 09:55am PT
"I was there and saw most of it.
The entire NYC Fire Department was in shock after watching nearly 350 of their members disappear in the horror. When they knew there was no one in the 7WTC, they simply let it go. A relatively minor fire was allowed to consume the entire building. As simple as that. No controlled demo. No conspiracy. They were emotionally and physically spent. Any energy they had was in a futile effort to locate survivors across Vesey Street in the perimeter.
The 7 collapsed in the evening. Hours after. There’d been explosions all day and this was simply one more.
Fact is, the NYC “bunker” was in the basement of the 7. As well as a telecom switching station. The building was only finished in the ‘90s IIRC. The collapse of the 7WTC also sheered the façade off a Community College annex which is only getting repaired now a couple of blocks from where I am atm.
The building I was in, the 6WTC, was between the collapsed tower and the 7WTC which was across the street. Much of the 6WTC was still standing after until it was torn down about 3 months later. So a much closer building is still standing and one further away was allowed to collapse. So there will always be this suspicion to casual observers. But the buildings inside the GZ perimeter got the hoses. Try and cool it down to get at possible survivors.
The government hasn’t helped themselves with the wall of secrecy that the government traditionally shrouds any of its less than stellar performances. Like the non WMD in Iraq. They want their pensions. They just slap down all questions by screaming about the dead. It will always be that way until some sort of system of accountability is installed. "
Does anyone on this board know this guy? Ever met him at facelift etc etc? I suspect we are all paying his salary. LOL! He was there and saw it! LOL! Sure thing buddy. First post? He may (or may not) be a real person and a real climber, ie, what he says he is.
Uhhh, credible? 100% redeemed Dr F? Nope. For myself, I've climbed with 2 who have posted on this thread and met one or 2 more. It's a small community....with a few extras now:-)
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 17, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
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Building 7 collapsed because the firefighters were emotionally spent.
That's a new one.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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building structure is important in this debate. you have to understand what's inside a big building. the simple introduction is the old style playground monkeybars--our generation will remember them. steel pipe in a grid structure, a lattice. every two feet or so you have a three-dimensional connecting joint, the x, y and z axes. walk up to those monkeybars, grab them, and try to shake them for all you're worth. no flex. total rigidity.
that "grid" structure is the way every tall buiding in the world is built, up to about 70 stories high. at that point, wind becomes a factor and engineers have to undertake different strategies. the twin towers were soundly built according to an innovative ultra-high strategy, much copied after that. it was basically a core tower, a shell surrounding it on the outside, and the floors suspended between them.
it's interesting that thomas eagar, an m.i.t. structural engineer, came out the year after the attacks and tried to explain away the catastrophic collapses as "pancaking". that became a regular laughingstock within a couple of years. not even the government will give you the "pancake" theory any more. but take note, dr. F, eagar was a professor of structural engineering at m.i.t. can you beat that "credential"? at a certain point, one has to lay aside the resumes and look at the arguments themselves, as every jury in the country does in cases which involve warring "experts". even if it's hard to understand, a real expert will get the truth across to the layperson. beware those who assert their credentials and then ask you to take their word for it.
building 7 was a 42-story building, built with that steel grid structure. no airplaine hit it, although truthers like to note that one of the hijacked planes crashed in pennsylvania and it took a few more hours before building 7 was, essentially, instantaneously dissolved. steel grid structures simply do not collapse catastrophically from "minor fires" which "somehow" get out of control. look at a burning wood frame building if you like, much more vulnerable to fire. how does it come down? the fire eats away, but the framework is the last thing to go, and when it goes, it never goes all at once. it crumbles here and there, weaknesses taking out pieces. even towards the end, framework will be sticking up. towards the end of building 7's eight-second collapse, there was nothing but rubble.
you also have to look at what it takes to melt or weaken steel. heat has to be trapped, air has to be force-fed. think of a blast furnace or a blacksmith's forge. but the way to melt it quick is with thermite, the preferred demolition material for steel structures, and thermite has to be planted in the right places and detonated in a controlled manner.
i said that gage was the only technical person in this area--i should have said building professional involved in architecture and engineering. there are several other truthers with solid scientific credentials, prominently dr. steven jones, former professor of physics at BYU, who was shouldered out of his job for not keeping his mouth shut. jones continues to find plenty of evidence for thermite in WTC dust.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
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jeeziz, craig. the "cop no one knows" was larry silverstein, owner of the entire WTC appearing on national television. go away and do some homework.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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there is a large body of knowledge about controlled demolition and building behavior. the government would have us rewrite building codes to conform with its myths of 9/11 "anomalies". steel frame buildings don't collapse due to fire--except on 9/11. the editor of fire engineering magazine--you don't get more expert than that--was fired from his job for trying to make a point of it.
this is all old material for me, and i tire of dealing with ignorance. i do agree that this is a dead issue, as the OP suggests, not because of lack of evidence but because of a truly withering power structure which prevents the issues from coming to the fore, where they belong. be content to accept what is foisted on you. you will never beat them. there is no rule of law, there is no place for truth. there is only power, as the romans knew. the victors write the history. if there is hope, it is the hope of mice and weasels who scurry to survive in the shadows of great dinosaurs.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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Anyone else here know John Duffield in real life?
This was his first post:
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Ozs_Ozc9ISUh
Sorry if you're a real dude, but since we're talking conspiracies and all, it's well known that US government agencies pay people to steer Internet forum conversations in more desirable directions to sway crowd actions and beliefs. But of course, that is only supposed to happen on Arabic language forums?
At any rate, it seems that the technique is effective.
John if you're a real climber dude, sorry! I'm just having fun on a thread that would make me cry if I didn't laugh.
Edit: scooped by couchmaster!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
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"steel frame buildings don't collapse due to fire"
Bird, you're just wrong. A cursory look in 10 sec refutes your claim.
"On May 10, 1993, the 4 story Kader Toy Factory in Nakhon Pathom, Thailand collapsed after fire broke out on the first floor and spread throughout the complex. The factory was in full production at the time and all fire exits were locked. 188 people were killed and over 500 others were injured. The building was a steel-frame design.[10] "
If you're tired of dealing with ignorance, I suggest you address your own.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
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a four-story toy factory in thailand?
you have to look much closer, in-your-arse. this issue was hashed out for years. i was involved in it. yes, a few selected "steel frame buildings", by loose definition, might collapse, but far more steel frame skyscrapers survive their fires spectacularly. one red herring which comes to mind is mccormick place in chicago--a vaulted convention center which collapsed in a fire--a far cry from grid structure. please re-read what i said before about grid structure.
to reply to kos's question, grid steel buildings don't "fail". to bring them down, you have to plan a demolition and place the thermite in exactly the right places. then you get a free-fall collapse, and that's exactly what we have with these three buildings of the WTC, free-fall collapse, no hindrance to things coming down, as you would expect with something accidental. astoundingly fast. and rubble which was amazingly pulverized. i'll never forget what one of the firemen said: you couldn't even find an intact telephone in the rubble. the biggest piece of a telephone he could find was a couple inches long. everything blown to smithereens by tremendous energy--and then quickly carted away, buried in landfills and structural steel sent to china to be resmelted, all in flagrant violation of the laws governing forensic evidence. now tin hat people can argue about things which no longer exist.
you get into it a little further, and it becomes almost laughable. there is footage of a BBC television reporter telling live on screen of the building 7 collapse shortly before it actually happened. in the background you see building 7 standing tall. when this came out, 3-4 years ago, the footage started playing hide-and-go-seek within the BBC archive. it was so embarrassing it was eventually released and forgotten about. as with larry silverstein, you can put the bald truth out in the open and the spin doctors will take excellent care of it.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
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Dr. F just doesn't get it. Or the thought has never crossed his mind.
No one in a million years would put demolition explosives in the Building 7 before 911 happened
The destruction of building #7 WAS PART OF 911. Jeez, it's not like anyone is saying somebody put explosives into the building to take it down, and then coincidently 911 happened and building 7 was just brought down as a complete seperate incident.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
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Who put the exposives there?, Why?
I don't know. So we could have a good, no questions asked excuse to bomb the shite out of Afghanistan and build natural gas pipelines to the Persian Gulf? That the Taliban refused to cooperate with us once they assumed power? You tell me? You've got the facts, right?
Arne
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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The fact that all of the evidence was so quickly whisked away and destroyed is the most damning event in 9-11.
There should be no debate or theorizing over how those building collapsed because the exact story of their collapse was written in the steel and debris of the aftermath. But they destroyed it all. They shipped the steel very speedily to Korean and Chinese steel mills where it was melted down.
It is a crime to destroy evidence of crime and that is just what happened on a grand scale.
Plus from an engineering standpoint, all the building remains are needed to fully understand the details of the failures, in order to build better buildings. So it was also criminal of them to destroy the engineering evidence.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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Re: John Duffield post-
"There’d been explosions all day and this was simply one more."
This is not generally part of the official narrative- the observations of explosions have been actively suppressed.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
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And let's not forget that the BBC (and Fox) reported "Building#7 has just completely collapsed", 20 full minutes before it even collapsed! That's not part of any conspiracy theory. No one disputes that, not even the BBC. So, you have to accept that and continue your dogma.
Arne
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
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There was nothing "grid" like about WTC7 - it was a complete hack-job shell around existing structures and fell asymmetrically as one would expect.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Nov 17, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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it was a complete hack-job shell around existing structures and fell asymmetrically as one would expect.
Oh, OK.
Funny, I just watched the clip. Didn't see anything asymmetrically as I would expect.
By the way, I don't state that explosives brought down #7 because I don't know. All I believe to know is that things didn't go down on 9/11 the way our government told us it did. And when the media tells us "building #7 has just collapsed and there is nothing left" 20 minutes before it actually did, it kind of makes it all hard to swallow.
Arne
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 17, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
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it sure looks symmetrical to me
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 17, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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Bird:
"steel frame buildings don't collapse due to fire"
Bird, 5 minutes late having been conslusively proven wrong:
yes, a few selected "steel frame buildings", by loose definition, might collapse but
But nothing. And you wonder why nobody takes you clowns seriously. You throw up the fact that you wasted years in some circle jerk with other tin foil hatters as some form of credential, "this issue was hashed out for years. i was involved in it". We're laughing AT you Bird, not with you.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Nov 17, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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Yeah, I get that Silver.
I tend to look for answers though. Shite doesn't just happen. You and I were told a story that's not real.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 17, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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it's not like anyone is saying somebody put explosives into the building to take it down That is exactly the implication of the repeated mention of "thermite" explosions. There's a strong implication of cover up and conspiracy throughout the video. That's the whole point of it.
So how would they explain that all the thermite charges would be detonated at the same time assuming they were pre-planted. After 8 hours of fire? The didn't go off separately earlier?
If not pre-planted, how did they get planted during the fire?
I'm not going for planted explosives.
The video is rather deceiving about the time it took to fail: it started buckling 2 1/2 hours prior to the collapse (which is why NYFD evacuated their personnel) which took 37 seconds.
And it started in the mechanical spaces.
Some firefighters entered 7 World Trade Center to search the building. They attempted to extinguish small pockets of fire, but low water pressure hindered their efforts.[32] Fires burned into the afternoon on the 11th and 12th floors of 7 World Trade Center, the flames visible on the east side of the building.[33][34] During the afternoon, fire was also seen on floors 6–10, 13–14, 19–22, and 29–30.[28] In particular, the fires on floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13 continued to burn out of control during the afternoon.[35] At approximately 2:00 pm, firefighters noticed a bulge in the southwest corner of 7 World Trade Center between the 10th and 13th floors, a sign that the building was unstable and might collapse.[36] During the afternoon, firefighters also heard creaking sounds coming from the building.[37] Around 3:30 pm FDNY Chief Daniel Nigro decided to halt rescue operations, surface removal, and searches along the surface of the debris near 7 World Trade Center and evacuate the area due to concerns for the safety of personnel.[38] At 5:20:33 pm EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center started to collapse, with the crumble of the east mechanical penthouse, while at 5:21:10 pm EDT the entire building collapsed completely.[39][40] There were no casualties associated with the collapse.
If there's a "smoking gun" in my mind it's here:
Mechanical equipment was installed on floors four through seven, including 12 transformers on the fifth floor. Several generators in the building were used by the Office of Emergency Management, Salomon Smith Barney and others.[1] Storage tanks contained 24,000 gallons (91,000 L) of diesel fuel to supply the generators.[9] Fuel oil distribution components were located at ground level, up to the ninth floor........ the fuel in the building is today not believed to have contributed to the collapse of the building. Not the fuel, but the generators and 12 distribution transformers. If the power hadn't been cut outside the building, there'd have been massive arcing as the systems failed. This would have caused thermite-like pellets and spheres.
Architects are not structural engineers. I studied architecture for two years in university. I took all the required engineering classes. I could calculate the loads and stresses in a pin connected truss bridge. That's elementary statics and strength of materials not structural engineering.
One thing we did learn is that heat is the enemy of structural steel. Even at normal fire temperatures. When you see the shiny metal exterior of a steel frame building, it's a facade. The steel beams and columns inside are coated with concrete mixed with fireproofing as a fire protection and then covered again with the trim that you see. Even then, the protection is not meant to last for hours. They are designed to stand long enough for the people to get out. 7 WTC succeeded at this. Even at 1 and 2 WTC, 10's of thousands of people got out.
The NIST didn't do all their own structural engineering either:
The investigation, led by Dr S. Shyam Sunder, drew upon in-house technical expertise as well as the knowledge of several outside private institutions, including the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), the Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), the American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC), the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY). These organizations know their stuff. They determine the specifications AND do the materials and processes testing.
The analysis of the collapse of 1 and 2 WTC
NIST vindicated the design of the WTC, noting that the severity of the attacks and the magnitude of the destruction was beyond anything experienced in U.S. cities in the past. NIST also emphasized the role of the fires, but it did not attribute the collapses to failing floor joists. Instead, NIST found that sagging floors pulled inward on the perimeter columns: "This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers."
These buildings were not designed to survive this kind of attack. Period. They weren't even designed to survive earthquakes. They are expensive to build and there is no significant structural redundancy. Once one part of the building starts to fail, the rest comes down quickly. This is why demolitions experts can bring down a big building with a few dozen pounds of explosives.
And why is NIST keeping so much data secret for national security reasons? Precisely because there are thousands of similar buildings in the US.
There's a lot of appealing to our emotions in that video. Yet there were no casualties caused by the 7 WTC collapse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 17, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
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it sure looks symmetrical to me Look carefully at the video. The (equipment) penthouse region collapses first. It's on the left side of the building as seen in the video. It pulls down the rest with it.
healye's sketch is revealing, as is the floor plan:
The video specifically doesn't show the severely damaged side of the building away from the camera. Was this video cherry picked? Are there any in the public domain of the other side of the building?
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 17, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
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Hightraverse-
"These buildings were not designed to survive this kind of attack. Period. They weren't even designed to survive earthquakes. They are expensive to build and there is no significant structural redundancy. Once one part of the building starts to fail, the rest comes down quickly. This is why demolitions experts can bring down a big building with a few dozen pounds of explosives."
Seriously??
Here's a radio interview- largely about put options and alleged hijackers, but bears on Bldg 7 as well. Very clear, evidence-based. One hour.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23122.htm
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Nov 17, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
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I usually stay out of this stuff - fighting ignorance and faulty logic is a difficult task.
Me: I have a BS and a MS in structural engineering and have taught structural engineering since 1984. During the cold war days I worked for a research company that developed ways to prevent buildings collapsing due to nuclear attack. We blew up buildings to see how it worked and we worked with demolition companies to learn more about how they cause buildings to collapse. I have spent many years testing structures, models and elements of structures to destruction.
1) Buildings and large buildings in particular are not as robust as the pubic thinks. They are generally capable of resisting expected conditions but the unexpected can be devastating. In a sense, large buildings are actually fairly fragile.
2) Modern computer aided design and analysis has not resulted in more robust buildings, quite the opposite. Comparing the Empire State Building to WTC7 is not reasonable. More detailed analysis has resulted in both more refined designs and more refined loads. In the old slide rule days designers had to make more conservative assumptions than they do now. Old buildings are harder to knock down than new buildings.
3) Find and listen to the real experts. It takes competence to recognize competence. The incompetent are generally over confident while to truly competent tend to be under-confident. The guy who hesitates and qualifies his opinion often knows much more than the one who is absolutely certain about his opinion. Ed Anser??
4) Construction and design errors result in structures that are weaker than the designer intended. Factors of safety in structural engineering are something between 1.5 and 3.0. Once built, the actual safety factor will be something less. Just because a building has stood for many years does not mean it was properly constructed, properly designed nor has adequate safety factors.
5) Size effect. Galileo recognized that a long rope will almost always be weaker than a short rope since a long rope has a higher probability of including a defect or defects. This is that same as the chain is no stronger than its weakest link. A long chain has more links and probability theories say that it also has a greater chance of including a weak link. A large building has a greater probability of including more defects and may be weaker than the designer thought.
6) Imploding a building with explosives requires not only a lot of time and work but modification of the structure. Structural elements are removed or weakened. The columns to be cut need to be exposed, etc.
7) Steel rapidly looses both strength (yield stress) and stiffness (modulus of elasticity) as it heats up. The fireproofing is usually only good for a few hours and then the steel goes.
Ed Asner doesn't know sh#t from shinola. Ed Anser keeps talking about architects and the AIA. Architects do not necessarily know anything about structural engineering.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 17, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
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There is no evidence of explosive use, NONE
-- Dr. F.
FEMA report, Appendix C. Plenty of evidence.
Now, what is your evidence, Doctor? Other than a line of reasoning, you have zero.
The NIST report hides the data from which they form their conclusion, so that cannot be labeled "scientific" nor can something unseen be labeled evidence.
BTW, Coz was in NY that day, he confirms that Lots of folks knew the building was being brought down by explosives. Odd, no? Also, this dude that shows up today, to quote "just one more explosion."
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 17, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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The Only reason you people think they used explosives is because some cop, that no one knows, said that they are pulling Building 7
Thats It.
Who is this Cop, What did he really say, is there a recording?
-- Dr. F.
Goes to show you how much the Doctor knows about this subject.
A cop? Really dude?
BTW, that ain't the evidence that people look at, and that wasn't no cop.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 17, 2011 - 07:29pm PT
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Jay
Seriously?? See Banquo's post as well as mine.
It's a bit different here on the Left Coast where buildings are required to stay standing after significant earthquakes.
Even here, they're probably not much different for fire. It's expected that localized fires within/outside large buildings can be managed and extinguished in a short period of time. Meanwhile the occupants are evacuated.
They are not built to withstand large fires inside the building that can't be brought under control.
The video very specifically doesn't show you the significant damage on the side of 7WTC that was hit by the falling 1WTC.
It's also interesting they show just small areas burning. The entire South side of the building had been on fire
Here's a picture that gives a more realistic view of the fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wtc7onfire.jpg
As the North Tower collapsed on September 11, 2001, heavy debris hit 7 World Trade Center damaging the south face of the building[29] and starting fires that continued to burn throughout the afternoon.[8] The collapse also caused damage to the southwest corner with other possible damage including a large vertical gash near the center of the south face.[8] The building was equipped with a sprinkler system, but had many single-point vulnerabilities for failure: the sprinkler system required manual initiation of the electrical fire pumps, rather than being a fully automatic system; the floor-level controls had a single connection to the sprinkler water riser; and the sprinkler system required some power for the fire pump to deliver water. Also, water pressure was low, with little or no water to feed sprinklers.[ Given that the fire systems in 7 WTC were not fully automatic, and the entire area had low water pressure, the conclusion is not surprising. Remember the fires burned in the Pentagon for several days. The Pentagon area that was hit had already been strengthened against terrorist attack and couldn't really fall to the ground anyway.
It's economics. Require all large buildings to remain standing after such major assaults and there'd be no more large buildings.
This is a pretty good debunking. These photos and videos show clearly that the collapse of 7 WTC was nothing like a demolition and shows how carefully the skeptics cherry picked their videos and images.
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
Rather like "Oswald couldn't have acted alone". 48 years later, there's still no convincing evidence he had assistance in the shooting of JFK.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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Codes usually require commercial and industrial buildings to be built to a standard that allows them to resist earthquakes and fires for long enough for the occupants to get out. Survival of the occupants, not the building, is the goal. With any serious damage, it's usually cheaper to demolish the building and replace it, given that insurance pays for it.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 17, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
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The 9-11 conspiracy had to be approved and planned at the very top.
Nice to see that Dr F is coming around to our point of view.Bush did it
He rigged it with explosives
waited for 911 to happen
Then set the explosives off to take the building down
The conversation below is the start of the whole planning process.
Bush: I am bored. I want to invade somebody.
Cheney: There are plenty of things for you to do here at home.
Bush: No, I am really bored. I want to invade Iraq. Maybe Afghanistan too. Afghanistan sounds like some place just itching to be invaded.
Cheney: Well, you can't just invade somebody without some excuse!
Bush: Awww.... why not?
Cheney: It would not look right.
Bush: How about if we say they shot a torpedo at one of our ships!
Cheney: No one would ever go to war on a flimsy excuse like that.
Bush: What if they assassinated one of our top officials?
Cheney: Maybe if we had a crown prince or something, but I'm not so sure.
Bush: What if their leaders are drug lords? Would that work?
Cheney: Naw! We could never attack another country just cause the leader is a drug lord.
Bush: Well, we could say that American students are in danger.
Cheney: That might work, but I think we need something big, with explosions, smoke and fire. Lots of people dying. That would get American fired up and ready to fight.
Bush: How about we just go to the UN and say that they have weapons of mass destruction.
Cheney: Don't be ridiculous! No one would ever buy that nonsense. Besides we need something to get peoples emotions going. You know.... Clinton mentioned this Bin Laden fellow talked about flying airplanes into the world trade center. Maybe we could encourage him to actually do that.
Bush: Who?
Cheney: I'm not sure it would be enough though. Only a few hundred people would die. It would be like a typical holiday weekend on the highways. But what if both towers collapsed after-wards and killed thousands of people? Now that would get everybody excited. We could invade anybody we wanted after that!
Bush: Don't we want to keep one tower as a spare?
Cheney: Absolutely not! If only one tower goes down, people will forget within a week!
Bush: If you say so.
Cheney: Now airliners filled with thousands of gallons of jet fuel won't be enough to bring down a high rise building, so we will have to install hundreds of pounds of high explosives in strategic spots in the buildings. Now who can we get to do that? I'm too old, so it probably needs to be you. The question is, can I trust you not to blab in the long run. It could ruin my legacy.
Bush: Me?? Don't we have the CIA and secret service and the marines for this kind of work?
Cheney: Well in other countries, certainly, but for domestic work it is a little more tricky. Maybe the mafia would do it for us. They can keep a secret.
Bush: That is a good idea. But couldn't we just put a lot more high explosives in the airplanes?
Cheney: Don't get side tracked! I wonder who can tell us how much explosives to put in the buildings and where to put it for best effect? I wonder how many people it will take to put the explosives in there? Then how much will we have to pay, to keep them quiet?
Bush: Hey! I know some structural engineers that are rock climbers! They could do the deed, then all we have to do is give them some new gear and a few free meals!
Cheney: My boy, you are onto something there. That is perfectly brilliant. Then for the rest of their days they will lie about it on internet forums. One thing still troubles me though.
Bush: What's that, boss?
Cheney: I just don't think that blowing up the two World Trade Center Towers and killing a few thousand people will be enough excuse to invade a backwards country that had nothing to do with it. We need something more......
Bush: Well what if we blow up some more buildings, like say, building 7?
Cheney: By golly, you are smarter than I thought! New Yorkers and all of America absolutely love Building 7. If that building goes, there will be no stopping us! Forget the Alamo! Remember Building #7!!!!
Bush: Lets go for it!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
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None of you mental speculators were even in the building to witness what really happened.
Instead you all sit around and drool on the internet guessing how it happened all while believing some computer simulation some rascal programmed to make the result conform to the theory.
But in reality ya don't know sh'it.
Do you you even have a clue who was running the NIST investigative crew?
Nope ,,,, you all just drool bullsh'it on the forum.
Even the NIST investigative crew were unhappy with the sh'it heads who were ordering them around and preventing them from doing a real scientific investigation.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
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None of you mental speculators were even in the building to witness what really happened.
But you do, oh wise one?
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new world order-
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 09:50pm PT
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Pardon me please the double post. I feel it applies here.
I've found the more a person works for the Man, the less likely he is to believe in OWS, 9/11 being an inside job (and the whole host of so-called conspiracy theories).
So, folks like Mighty Hiker (a lawyer), doctors, dentists, government employees, police, teachers, etc. etc., would never even consider investigating said, conspiracy theories, let alone believing them. They are....the Man. Their minds are made up. They have been programmed. Sad, that. The mind (like a parachute) works better when it's open.
war, what's your excuse?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
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government employees, police, teachers,
HAHAHAHAHA
WRONG.
Klimmer, our resident kook, is a teacher.
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new world order-
climber
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Nov 17, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
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^^^^ Hmmmmm, that. Perhaps "teachers" was too all inclusive.
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fairweather
Mountain climber
Roseville, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
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I just can't believe I finally stumbled onto a post where Dr. F is making sense. I may have to put on my tin foil hat, remove my brain and start believing that Bush planned all of it.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 17, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
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how many buildings in between 7 and the plane targets? Zero.
1 WCT (the first tower hit) collapsed in the direction of 7 WCT and did significant damage to it. On the side away from the conspiracy theorists' video. They never show a vid of the side that was struck and was on fire from about the 6th floor to the top.
See the link I provided earlier for pictures of 7 WCT from all directions.
And now I'm over and OUT.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Nov 17, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
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WBraun, the news rascals video showing the collapse did not show what
I first saw in 2008. What I saw makes sense that the building collapsed
from severe damage behind the side shown in the news video and the damage
was caused by falling debris from 1 of the World Trade Center towers if
not both. That side of the building was probably not hit by debris or
very little. The roof had huge holes and there was severe damage to the
other sides.
This made sense all the way up to this next quote....
Im still wondering if it was the Manhattan Projects research
center?
You guys ought to listen to Banquo. You should really stop and ask, would you call in Werner to rescue you from El Cap? Or an internet expert thats never climbed let alone rescued someone. Because thats what this discussion sounds like. Experts that have no clue.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
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Have any of you that think this was done by demolition or some sort dark magic ever asked the question why does the code require fire protection of steel?
Steel becomes plastic and loses its strength with heat. The vertical gravity support of a floor or more failed, the columns were turned to rubber by heat and triggered a consecutive failure by impact loading of all the many floors above. It was a classic text book structural failure, sorry WB no engineer had a gun to their head......how do you come up with this stuff???
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:14pm PT
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they said that joe frazier was somehow responsible,
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
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Steel becomes plastic and loses its strength with heat.
you have to get specific about that. how much heat? how much strength? you know more about this than you think. put a gallon of kerosene--that's what jet fuel is, essentially--into a metal wheelbarrow and set it ablaze. will the steel melt? or as someone said above--do cars melt when a car fire goes out of control?
and even if the fire was hot enough to do steel damage, how would the damage occur? would it go whoomph all at once, or would it buckle and topple gradually? it went whoomph all at once. you can't spindoctor that. and three buildings--the twin towers identical structurally, but building 7 quite different--all went whoomph all at once.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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Banquo-
Good post, thanks. Can you cite any example of any similar "fairly fragile" building collapsing completely and rapidly from a non-explosive cause?
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
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There is some pretty good discussion in this thread. None of it is coming from Dr. F. He's committed so many fallacies of logic it's perplexing.
The short of it for me is something doesn't add up. Bury your head in the sand like Ron tends to do. fine. But the answers to the questions posed to the people that should conduct a real investigation don't exist.
Something stinks. I'm not pointing fingers but if this whole thing was so cut and dry that high jacked plains as reported and believed by most caused all of this than why all the secrecy and dodging of a real investigation?
It smells like a cover up to me. Yeah, a far fetched one and certainly one difficult to believe. But if what we are being told really happened than why all the secrecy?
My god.... release all the video that got confiscated from around the Pentigon (within hours).
What's to hide if the story we are being told is what really happened?
What's to hide?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
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Yes, I'm a teacher and proud of it.
No, I don't talk about "forbidden secret knowledge" with students. Not the place to do it, nor is it the time.
However, I'm a US citizen, and I have Constitutional/Bill of Rights as you do, and I will exercise them as long as I can before the corrupt powerful elite takes them away, outside the classroom.
We can go round and round on this. Many sources have been given and discussed before. The evidence of LIHOP/MIHOP is overwhelming.
I prefer to listen to one very important honest eye-witness who was actually in WTC 7. Barry Jennings . . .
http://jenningsmystery.com/
He knows the truth.
So do these American Heroes . . .
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Can governments kill their own? They sure can. And they have many times throughout history. Sometimes they think of us as canon fodder.
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 18, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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I've yet to read anything in this thread from you that I regard as science.
and realize.... i've always been "on your side" in just about every discussion on this forum.
but you lost me in this thread. completely.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 18, 2011 - 02:17am PT
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That is a great post, Dr F. I call the results of 9-11 an allergic reaction. The big damage to our country came from our own over reaction rather than from the destruction of those buildings or the loss of life. In terms of actual damage, Katrina was far more devastating. Katrina took out a whole city plus numerous smaller towns.
The sudden, unexpected nature of the attack created a heightened emotional reaction. Then everyone mentally searches for causes that match the intense emotional charge of the results. The too simple story of 19 guys with minimal weapons persuading passengers and crew to passively surrender is just too bland. It can't be that. There must be more to it. The simple solution to tell passengers and crew to never again submit to a hijacker is even worse. We can't just do that! We have to take action! 9-11 was horrible! We must do something big; with explosions and smoke and fires to match the horror of 9-11 itself!
If we were in an actual war, the loss of a few buildings, no matter how big, would be considered a modest cost. Compare the destruction in New York with what we did to many cities in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yet we are still not satisfied.
--------
I am pretty bummed that no one commented on my joke story. I was hoping for at least a chuckle or two.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2011 - 02:23am PT
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Little green men from area-51 put on stealth suits and wired up the trade towers + one extra little building with Antarian micro thermite explosives.
All this from idiots who wouldn't know how to prove the world is round.
Seriously.
Jeez .. must be flat i guess.
Unless you can show me one simple example of how an average person with readily available items they probably already own can measure the circumference of the earth fairly accurately. I don't even want to hear your BS physics "proof"
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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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Nov 18, 2011 - 04:48am PT
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High Traverse thanks for this link - http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm - clearly building 7 was heavily damaged and burned hard before it collapsed on it's own. The conspiracy theorists never showed us those videos and images.
I definitely got suckered in by the WTC7 misrepresentations. The knowledge of how fragile these types of towers really are explains the secrecy surrounding some of the investigation results.
Lastly the post showing the possibility of getting hit by lightning in the US, is nearly twice as great as being killed by a terrorist attack anywhere in the world. Thats an eye opener too.
Great posts, thanks everyone. We are very fortunate they didn't target a nuclear reactor.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2011 - 09:44am PT
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I prefer to listen to one very important honest eye-witness who was actually in WTC 7. Barry Jennings . . .
http://jenningsmystery.com/
He knows the truth.
And we have the science and the visual evidence of a controlled demolition.
We also have several news networks admit on camera that WTC 7 had fallen, yet it was clearly standing in the background while on camera when they said all this. OOooopppppssssiiieeeee. Let the cat of of the bag early.
We also have Silversteen and his infamous admission on camera in an interview " . . . Let's pull-it . . . and we did . . ." blah-blah-blah. OOoooopppppsssiiieeeee. Let the cat out of the bag again. Dang the truth just leaks out at really inopportune times. Bummer.
Sorry, but you can't just dismiss the truth no matter how hard you try.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Nov 18, 2011 - 09:56am PT
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you gonna argue the map?!?!?!??
google the images folks,
building 6
right inbetween 1 and 7
was pummeled to death with the explosive debris of 1
didnt collapse
Yes
I don't own this photo, I found it on the 'net. If this violates TOS, I apologize.
6WTC was only about 8 stories high. So it didn't have that preponderance of weight to bring it down. I saw it several times from above in the months after. A big chunk torn out of it. The Federal paperwork had burned merrily for some time as well. But it wasn't carrying the weight of say another 30 stories on top as was the 7. But the 7 was much further away. I'm willing to accept something hit the 7 that was on fire.
An aircraft engine plunged 92 floors down near the front door of the 6WTC and was still running. So pieces of aircraft were sprayed around the vicinity.
The Government never had a hearing on the circumstances. So there will always be those who suspect foul play. The 7 didn't have to come down IMO.
Quick work probably could've saved it. Was probably worth about a billion dollars but the decision to let it go wasn't made by the owners. It was made by people who had just had their brains blown out by the enormity of what they had just witnessed.
The real crime on 9/11 was the number of first responder deaths. It is, IMO, something people would prefer not to discuss and why no public hearings.
There were engineers in NYC who knew instinctively the towers were coming down. They were never consulted. In my younger days, I ran the stairwells many times rather than take the elevator. They were narrow. So you had firefighters carrying up about 80 - 100 lbs each, making roughly 30 -35 floors per hour, colliding with people trying to get down. Most of this in the first tower struck - the 1WTC.
The first plane had hit around the 92d floor and poured roughly 20,000# of jet fuel down the elevator shaft immolating people in the elevators and in the lobby. So only the stairwells could be used. Tight narrow stairs with heavily laden firefighters going up and thousands of office workers from the 90th floor and below, coming down. A nightmare.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2011 - 11:15am PT
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Lastly the post showing the possibility of getting hit by lightning in the US, is nearly twice as great as being killed by a terrorist attack anywhere in the world.
That says a lot. Especially when you consider the budget of our Homeland Security Department.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Nov 18, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
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Werner knows. It was an "inside job."
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 18, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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Thank you for posting Mr. Duffield. You bring up some really good points that are ignored normally and even more so in conspiracy discussions like this.
I had not heard about the jet fuel going down the elevator shafts, but it makes perfect sense. If the impact blasts open the elevator shaft, then it acts as a perfect drain.
If you have some knowledgeable engineers who are pretty sure tho towers are going to collapse, but they can't or don't communicate with the emergency people going into the building, then we have the greater disaster that we had. From a social or communications perspective, what could have been done different? Were any of those engineers frantically calling the city and fire departments, trying to persuade them that the building were going to collapse? If so, what road blocks did they hit.
In hind sight we know that everyone should have evacuated as quickly as possible and no one should have gone into the buildings. The people above the impacts could only go up to the roof in the faint hope of rescue there. I recall hearing stories that many people were told to stay put and wait for rescue, or perhaps many people felt they should stay put and wait for rescue. I keep wondering are there potentially better systems for evacuating people from buildings of this size, especially the people trapped above such a fire?
For those who question Mr. Duffield's actual existence, I do not know him, but I note that he has posted on Summitpost.org since about 2005. From my point of view, the quality of his posts speaks for itself.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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small point, but the elevator shafts where not continuous. Different shafts for different floor sectors.
"Ever persistent, the defenders of the 'official story' have blamed the towers' elevator shafts for the lobby's damage. The idea is that the explosion from the impact of the airplanes created huge fireballs of energy which funneled down through the buildings via the elevator shafts, eventually exploding out into the lobby and creating the visible damage and destruction.
As with so many of the official explanations for unexplained anomalies in the 9/11 narrative, this elevator shaft theory is ridiculous. And surely it is just idle, noise-filling fluff. Something to sound vaguely intelligible to the general public. Because five minutes of research will show that the WTC Towers' elevators and shafts were not stacked vertically one on top of the other. "Instead of building enough elevators to move everybody from the ground floor to their destination, (the designers) decided to split the trip to the upper floors between multiple elevators. If people wanted to get from the ground to the top floor, they would need to jump from elevator to elevator, in the same way you might switch cars on a subway system."
from http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_10.htm
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 18, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
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As with so many of the official explanations for unexplained anomalies in the 9/11 narrative, this elevator shaft theory is ridiculous. And surely it is just idle, noise-filling fluff
yes of course....unlike your fact filled narrative!
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Nov 18, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
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Wow,
I must be really bored today to even respond to this stupid sh#t. Our government murdered thousands of it's own people? Even if they were smart enough, their just too fuken lazy!! Who do you think the government is? They are our sons and daughters. They are our neighbors and those kids we grew up with. Sure, many of them are stupid and lazy and do all kinds of stupid sh#t, but they are not cold blooded killers. I am sure their are a few of them floating around out there, but not in the numbers it would take. We never had to resort to murdering thousands of our own people for a reason to go to war before, and we won't have to, to do it again. War is a money maker and as this war winds down, they are already looking for the next one. Maybe we should focus our energy on stopping this Iran sh#t, if we can. OK I'm done,
sorry for the rant:-)
Roger
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
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Most all the "Official Version" proponents here are too stupid to see the total evidence proving that key govt. figures allowed and were proponents of the 911 events.
It's all right there in the official 911 reports of how they did it and pulled it off.
Instead they waste their time looking down elevator shafts.
Stupid fools .....
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Nov 18, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
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“The most characteristic feature of stupidity is not the inability to think or the lack of knowledge but the certainty with which ideas are held. This certainty which easily reaches the level of arrogance is based on unique rightness.” Edward De Bono
David Perkins regarding errors in thinking: "I found that most of the weaknesses did not reflect classic fallacies formal (like “affirming the consequent”) or informal (like “ad hominem argument”) but rather reflected simple narrative models of situations with little elaboration and hardly any attention to alternative perspectives. The problem, in other words, was not so much logical error as simplistic envisioning of situations and events.”
The trouble with conspiracy theorists is that they do pretty much what Perkins describes then get all worked up and self righteous about it as De Bono describes.
Another issue that conspiracy theorists seem to be unable to live with is that we cannot prove anything absolutely - although these people believe that we should be able to. Read Karl Popper's work - he describes how the scientific method cannot prove anything absolutely although if we are lucky we can occasionally disprove things absolutely. Outside of faith, there really is no truth.
So, I have looked at the data and since it is within my area of expertise I have evaluated it and I have come a conclusion that I believe is the most probable and most reasonable one. I won't say that I know the truth but that until new data becomes available I can forget about it. At least I could forget about it if the ignorant would quit clamoring on and on about it.
As Wayne in Wayne's World correctly says, "It might happen. Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt." Yes, WTC7 may have been destroyed by planted explosives but it is so unlikely that I dismiss it, it is not plausible. If you want to believe it, OK by me so long as you don't expect me to.
Let me know when there is something new to evaluate. I would be very interested in hearing if anybody found the wires that set off the charges. These wires usually lead several city blocks to a control point. If you come across a report of people spending weeks opening walls to expose the columns and then removing the 8 inches of fireproofing wrapping the column to place the charges. Usually, the columns to be cut are weakened by cutting notches with cutting torches so I would like to hear if anyone saw workmen with torches.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Nov 18, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
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Looks like many people realized the buildings were going to come down and it became more and more obvious to those inside and nearby as the buildings got weaker and closer to collapse.
http://sites.google.com/site/911stories/accountsoftowerstructuralinstabilityande
It was unexpected for those of us watching TV, since we couldn't see the leaning, couldn't hear the noises the buildings were making, and couldn't see the flexing of the structures.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
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I repeat . . .
I prefer to listen to one very important honest eye-witness who was actually in WTC 7. Barry Jennings . . .
http://jenningsmystery.com/
He knows the truth.
And we have the science and the visual evidence of a controlled demolition.
We also have several news networks admit on camera that WTC 7 had fallen, yet it was clearly standing in the background while on camera when they said all this. OOooopppppssssiiieeeee. Let the cat of of the bag early.
We also have Silversteen and his infamous admission on camera in an interview " . . . Let's pull-it . . . and we did . . ." blah-blah-blah. OOoooopppppsssiiieeeee. Let the cat out of the bag again. Dang the truth just leaks out at really inopportune times. Bummer.
Sorry, but you can't just dismiss the truth no matter how hard you try.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 18, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
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Simple structural engineering experiment.
Hollow drinking straw, putting a pressure on top of the straw to see if it will carry a load.
1.4 liter bottle with liquid [water].
Straw: 97.62 mm [3.84 inches]
Book or Magazine cases to hold bottle upright so to stabilize bottle.
Nothing happens.
Pinch/kink straw with index finger and thumb anywhere [in this case the middle]
Now put pressure on the straw, it bends and bottle falls. Why because you put or added weakness or breaching to the structural integrity of the member of that building.
What have we learned? Do we build structures out of hollow drinking straws; no! now I have to get another one to cut and use for………………..
Klimmer: Concrete contains water even in a harden state for years/years [usually 5-7%]. When the water in the concrete starts to heat up to a given temperature [high], it creates a gas [steam], this encased gas now has to find a way to get out. This is why concrete will explode.
As for your concrete works like a ceramic. If you use this for your analogy and have earthquakes they will all come down.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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not that it settles anything here - since we're all old enough to be in pain - but I always liked the quote
"you can tell how old you are, by how painful you find new ideas" ha ha
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
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they only put that specific ammount in the tanks
Pretty dang interesting.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 18, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
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As I asked the know-it-alls before - what were the conspirators' motives?
To make us paranoid about arabs? To invade Iraq and thereby stem islamic
hegemony? Please illuminate me.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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Project for a New American Century
From Wiki:
"The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American think tank based in Washington, D.C. that lasted from 1997 to 2006. It was co-founded as a non-profit educational organization by neoconservatives William Kristol and Robert Kagan. The PNAC's stated goal was "to promote American global leadership."[1] Fundamental to the PNAC were the view that "American leadership is both good for America and good for the world" and support for "a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity."[2] The PNAC exerted influence on high-level U.S. government officials in the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush and affected the Bush Administration's development of military and foreign policies, especially involving national security and the Iraq War."
Section V of Rebuilding America's Defenses, entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force", includes the sentence: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor"
signatures include
Elliott Abrams
John Ellis "Jeb" Bush
Richard B. Cheney
Steve Forbes
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Donald Rumsfeld
Paul Wolfowitz and most other well known neo-cons
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
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Since we're talking about WTC 7, thought this section from the original FEMA report on the building's collapse might lend to the discussion:
APPENDIX C : Limited Metallurgical Examination
This line is particularly fun:
This sulfur-rich liquid penetrated preferentially down grain boundaries of the steel, severely weakening the beam and making it susceptible to erosion. The eutectic temperature for this mixture strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached 1,000 °C (1,800 °F), which is substantially lower than would be expected for melting this steel.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Nov 18, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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And steel has lost 90% of it's strength at 1800 degrees F.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 18, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
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I have been in a few hot high-rise fires and have talked to other fireman who have been in other much worse fires, we all can't see how just a fire alone would cause a collapse without some type of force or impact. Look up the Madrid high-rise fire a few years back, total burn out from the 2nd floor up and no collapse. I don't know what caused 7 to collapse but it just doesn't make sense, there was just not that much fire in the building.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
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Madrid building was totally different architecture. Concrete core, several strength/firewall floors. Still, the steel only portion collapsed to the strength/firewall floor.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
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Losing strength =/= melting.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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Losing strength == collapse
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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Perhaps collapse, but not simultaneous failure of all the supporting members. Remember, free-fall speeds for over 100'.
And the steel is melted.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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Losing strength eventually leads to overall failure.
When one support is no longer available, the load is transferred to other supports. Continued transfer leads to collapse.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:10pm PT
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Including supports that have not lost a significant percentage of their strength.
It's the simultaneous failure that is a give away. Another is the melted steel. Or did you forget about that already?
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
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So what are you saying?
Did steel melt at 1800 or 2700 degree F?
You seem to be making the case that steel is even more susceptible to heat then we thought.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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As a doctor, you'd think you'd be interested in the scientific method, where fact trumps opinion. Yes, even Your opinion, Dr. F.
You seem to be making the case that steel is even more susceptible to heat then we thought.
Don't be a fool. We know through study the scientific properties of steel. The FEMA report shows that something was very fishy, as in steel melting at 1,000 degrees C.
Forget that office fires don't get close to that temperature.
There is evidence to suggest explosives. Why not test for them?
Or are you afraid what the results might show?
We know what independents have found. Maybe they were wrong.
You know, Fact vs. Opinion.
All you have is Opinion, the Truthers are asking for Facts.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
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This sulfur-rich liquid penetrated preferentially down grain boundaries of the steel, severely weakening the beam and making it susceptible to erosion. The eutectic temperature for this mixture strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached 1,000 °C (1,800 °F), which is substantially lower than would be expected for melting this steel.
What was your point, K-Man?
Are they saying that the steel 'melted' at 1800 F?
Are you saying the temps were higher then 1800 F?
There is little structural difference between 90% strength loss and 'melting'
They seem to be saying that under some circumstances, 'melting' can happen at lower temperatures, but why does it matter?
BTW, it is recognized that highrise office fires can reach 1800 F.
'
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Betelnut
Mountain climber
So. California
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Nov 18, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
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Oh no, the Santa believers are back on ST.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
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They got away with the biggest crime in history because some morons just won't think outside the box. We don't have to layout the sequence - the point is just that it didn't happen anything like the government says.
And a point I've made before, one of the worst outcomes of the whole event - including the blatant cover-up - is that the government managed to completely destroy the faith that most Americans once had in their government. Even if you accept the idea that 17 Saudis with box cutters can defeat the most powerful and expensive defense system ever seen in the history of humanity, you can't justify the cover-up. Hell, even members of the hand picked 911 commission resigned they were so disgusted with the procedures and insincere examination of the facts.The cynicism and distrust of the government has reached such a degree that people won't even take flu shots. How can a country stand when there is no faith left in our leaders. If it was the biggest crime, why was it buried? The destroyed evidence is IN ITSELF a crime.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 18, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
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Look at the video of bldg 7 collapse.
The side opposite the fires/damage, where there is no plane, no heat, no falling debris, falls to the ground in the same span of seconds.
Quibbling over temperatures obscures the fact that the majority of all three structures would not have had any heating at all, yet this mass of engineered steel is supposed to have collapsed like a house of cards because there was a fire on the other side of the building?
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Betelnut
Mountain climber
So. California
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Nov 18, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
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Have another (hic) drink, Jolly!
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Betelnut
Mountain climber
So. California
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Nov 18, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
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Jolly, what planet is "here and there"?
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:50am PT
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http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=101352
Post-construction fires in WTC buildings 1,2,& 7 prior to 9/11/2001
47 significant fires occurred- activating, or being capable of activating 1-3 sprinkler heads, not including the 1975 WTC1 fire, or the 1993 bombing.
The 1975 fire burned 9,000SF on floor 11, with damage to floors 10-19. There were no sprinklers.
The fire was put out by firefighters.
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=861610
Final Report on the collapse of WTC7
"Other than initiating the fires in WTC 7, the damage from the debris from WTC1 had little effect on initiating the collapse of WTC 7. The building withstood debris impact damage that resulted in 7 exterior columns being severed and subsequently withstood fires involving typical office combustibles on several floors for almost 7 hours. ....Even without the structural damage, WTC 7 would have collapsed from fires having the same characteristics as those experienced on Sept. 11, 2001. "
"Since WTC 7 was not doused with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, large areas of any floor were not ignited simultaneously. Instead, the fires in WTC 7 were similar to those that have occurred in several tall buildings where automatic sprinklers did not function or were not present. These other buildings did not collapse, while WTC 7 succumbed to its fires."
"This was the first known instance of the total collapse of a tall building primarily due to its fires."
"The transfer elements such as trusses, girders, and cantilever overhangs that were used to support the office building over the Con Edison substation did not play a role in the collapse of WTC 7."
"The installed thickness of the thermal insulation was consistent with the fire ratings required by NYCBC."
"Within the building were emergency electrical power generators, whose fuel supply tanks lay in and under the building. However, fuel oil fires did not play a role in the collapse of WTC 7."
To summarize this information from the official investigation:
 A fire burned 9,000 Square feet of WTC #1 with no sprinklers.
The debris damage to WTC 7 was not a factor in it's collapse. No huge gash in the south face was noted.
The fires in WTC 7 were typical of those that have happened in other non-sprinkled buildings, which did not collapse. In fact, no other tall building has completely collapsed from fire.
The convoluted lower structure of WTC 7 was not a factor in it's collapse.
The fireproofing was to code, and what was displaced in the structurally damaged area was not a factor.
The fuel and fuel tanks were not a factor in the collapse of WTC 7.
The fires started at the debris damage in the Southwest corner, only fires on floors 7-9, and 11-13 continued burning, and the 'probable collapse sequence' was thought to start in the 'Northeast region' almost 7 hours later.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 20, 2011 - 02:20am PT
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Hundreds of eye and ear witnesses, many who are exceptionally credible, say there were many explosions separate from the planes.
DrF, considering your utter disdain and distrust of the Republicans I am hard pressed to understand your blind and blanket acceptance of their flawed explanation. The shear number of blatant misrepresentations, impossible physics and conflicting facts would seem to be enough for you to doubt the legitimacy of this the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the world.
Why is it important for you to accept without question this Republican fairly tale?
It simply did not happen the way they want and need you to "Believe" it did.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 20, 2011 - 03:08am PT
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OK, down to the core NIST (final report on bldg 7) explanation for WTC 7 collapse:
"The initiating local failure that began the probable WTC 7 collapse sequence was the buckling of Column 79 (sic). This buckling arose from a process that occurred at temperatures at or below approximately 750˚F."
There you have it. It all came down from plain old office fires heating some steel beams not much hotter than you'd cook a pizza.
The idea is that the steel floor beams expanded- even though they're attached to 5 1/2" concrete slabs- and pushed a girder off its seats- even though there are floor beams and concrete on the other side of the girder- and then that poor column 79 didn't have enough support, and buckled, and suddenly the 80+/- other columns that support the floors- about the size of a football field, gave way and collapsed in 7 seconds.
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Quasimodo
Trad climber
CA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 08:56am PT
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After reading all the posts I realize not one person on this thread got a clue about the structural design of WTC 7. As a real structural engineer who actually designs large multi-story buildings one can just look at the structural system and understand why it collapsed. Good design of mid and high rise structures starts will a regular system. Unfortunately, architects like dramatic very tall lower floors with much less offensive columns. I have regular arguments with architects about good design practices. Architects like to push us structural engineers to design thinner, lighter, less conjested and highly irregular buildings. My job is to design a building that is focused on public safety not to massage the architects large ego.
Structural engineers in high seismic zones like in California understand that a good system does not have vertical irregularities. Typically, most structural engineers will make the architect happy by compromising the structural system to actually make money and get work. Being a Prima Dona about a consistent structural system will only lead to designing dog houses. The building code allows the engineer to design a high rise building with vertical irregularities. Codes allow the designer to exercise his/her own good judgement. Good judgement is very subjective. In regions of low seismic risk vertical irregularities are more the norm than the exception because the risks are lower. We never considered terrorism as a design consideration before 911. Now the Fed requires all Federal buildings to consider Progressive Collapse.
Look at the NIST study and carefully look at the many transfer beams that create a strange and irrational gravity load path to the foundation. If the WTC 7 design was submitted to OSHPD (hospital jurisdiction in California) today they would tell the owner to find another competent structural engineer. Vertical irregularities with large transfer beams creates a house of cards. If one column below the transfer beam level buckles the entire system becomes unstable. Imagine a marble on the crest of a hill. One slight touch either way sends the marble screaming down the hill. The combination of an intense fire and a crappy structural system caused the collapse. Klimmer and the conspiracy theortist are dead wrong.
The biggest threat to our future is our current instability in the US. I would instead focus on the 15 Trillion in debt with 1.5 Trillion, excluding interest, added each year for the next decade or so. Then add the entitlements of SS, Medicare and public pensions in the next few decades. We could be Greece very soon.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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The whole NIST report is worthless.
But since some of you haven't got the slightest clue as to why and you blindly take to it without even researching NIST and the 911 commissions history related to this event makes your analysis useless too except to keep feeding the illusion.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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(Oddly enough in the same fasion as the other 2.)
A joke? The collapse of tower 1 and 2 really don't look like the collapse of wtc 7. The towers fel down from the impact floor and down and didn't look at all like control demolitions that I have seen. The collapse of WTC 7 at least look like a control demolition because it seems to fell down from the ground and up.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 20, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Quasimodo-
You design large multi-story buildings, and yet you liken this one to a marble that one touch will send screaming down the hill?
Wow.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
\Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
Blah blah blah blah blah politard non climbing crap.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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Betelnut-
Interesting video, and concept.
However, it still boils down to the argument "I can't believe otherwise, so this must be true".
If the guy holding the umbrella at the hearing is 'the umbrella man', he looks a bit young to be concerned with political issues of 1938-9.
He shows up 25 years after the Kennedy assassination and says "I'm the guy, and this is what I was thinking...".
And Errol Morris says it must be true, because it's weird.
I'm underwhelmed by the rigor of this.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Nov 24, 2011 - 10:07am PT
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Now Quasimodo be nice to architects, they butter your bread! The better ones start with the structure in mind and collaborate early with all the engineers. Thanks for the post, but I'd bet there isn't a soul on this thread whose perspective has been changed. Screw it, here's a real change of perspective:
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 11:47am PT
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MH, healyje, Quasi, High Traverse, etc are all mental speculators and guessing fools just like you pertaining to this subject matter.
YOU DON"T FUKING KNOW THE REAL TRUTH ULTIMATELY
Just theories and conclusions based on other peoples theories.
The other side (so called truthers) are doing the same thing.
Even the official reports are theories, speculations, manipulations, tons of omissions, tons of disinformation with no real absolute conclusions.
Only an insane person would accept the nonsense you guys are accepting ......
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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Thus you are officially insane since you do not have privy to the required people who initiated the 911 events.
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
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it's nice to know i'm not highly educated.
and WB is helping this thread more than ANYONE else.
it doesn't have to be "truthers" VS believe everything the gov't told you about what happen.
There's the folks who state that they clearly don't know and want more questions asked and a real investigation. but it's a pipe dream to believe for a second a real investigation will ever happen.
the only truth about all this that I know is that I don't know and that something stinks. And if you just sit by idly and miss that fact than, well, i'm kinda having a hard time with the "highly educated" classification.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
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I DON'T beleive the "Conspiracy theories" either...
???
everyone believes in a conspiracy - its either 17 Arabs with box-cutters conspiracy, or its US Government insider involvement.
I mean get a grip; NORAD was having practice drills that day (nice coincidence) and didn't notice a hijacked 707 headed its way? get real...
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
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everyone believes in a conspiracy - its either 17 Arabs with box-cutters conspiracy, or its US Government insider involvement.
bingo!
though that's not entirely true. there are some, like myself, that don't buy any of the story at this point. the whole thing stinks and begs for many more questions. and if you quit asking those questions it's hard not to ponder why you question so often the republitards and their approach to this world and this country....
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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If the conspiracy is true... then ... what?
I didn't hear anything on that video talking about motive etc.
If someone blew it up, then it was the 3rd one that day.
Is that new?
Nobody was in it by then.
What's the big deal? (meaning... someone should be talking about WHY)
Anyone?
Why level it? No loss of life in WTC #7 (weren't they all evacuated by then?)
So someone brought down a building. If it was terrorist... then all they got was a building. If it was US Gov.. .then why?????
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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Locker said . . .
Regardless of our differences...
I am WITH YOU 100% on this one...
"I can not believe that explosives were used in the TT, Building 7 and that the Pentagon was hit by a missle
I can not accept these things as true
Not without some one coming forward and saying that they put the explosives in the buildings"...
BINGO!!!...
Sorry, but that isn't how justice in a court of law operates, nor is it how science operates. If it did then no one would be found guilty, and we wouldn't learn anything through the scientific method.
All the evidence is taken into account: the means, the motive, and the opportunity. All the physical empirical evidence is taken into account. All the eye-witness testimony is taken into account. We don't rely on or wait for confessions to convict someone when the evidence is overwhelming that the party is guilty.
The 9-11 Truth Movement has shown without a doubt that the OCT as stated by the 9-11 Commission Report is invalid. As an official Hypothesis/Theory (the OCT) it has been overwhelmingly invalidated. Therefore, it must be rejected with prejudice.
Investigate 9-11, properly, openly, and honestly and internationally, since the outcome has had a negative global impact on everyone. That is what we are asking for. That is what the World is asking for.
TPTB, "they" do not want that to happen and they will continue to forever to resist 9-11 being investigated properly, and ethically, and openly. They know they are guilty and we know it too.
Edit:
Totally disagree with the below statement. It can be. We have a tremendous amount of evidence. We also know where to look and who to put on the hot seat if the international World is ever given the chance to properly do so. We know where the skeletons are hiding. We just have to call them out.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Why???
Why blow up WTC #7?
you can continue to chase your tails after you answer me :)
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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Why do it?
Here it's only a game.
If you want to do it for real you probably will get killed, or made into a molester, pedophile, or you'll mysteriously disappear, etc etc, if you find out the truth and try to reveal it.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Nov 25, 2011 - 09:24am PT
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Why blow up building 7?
In February of 2002 Silverstein Properties won $861 million from Industrial Risk Insurers to rebuild on the site of WTC 7. Silverstein Properties’ estimated investment in WTC 7 was $386 million. This building’s collapse alone resulted in a payout of nearly $500 million, based on the contention that it was an unforeseen accidental event.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/bombshell-silverstein-wanted-to-demolish-building-7-on-911.html
Follow the money . . .
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 11:23am PT
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Reeotch,
Thanks for that article link. Very important. Hadn't seen that article before.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Nov 25, 2011 - 11:32am PT
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So an insurance company or whatever rigged the building with explosives and coordinated it to happen on the day that two airplanes were run into the Towers so they could make some money?
Really?
OK thanks, I'm done. I get it.
Have fun here. I got stuff to do.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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I begin to think we have some paid trolls here - trying to discredit the conversation. No such thing you say? One firm hired 800 people to post some 20,000 comments to a particular forum. What better way to sway the climate of opinion...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15869683
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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Yes, I have heard about this over the years and it does seem to be happening more and more.
It wouldn't surprise me that it is happening here at ST, considering the topics we like to wrap our heads around and debate, ie "Forbidden Secret Knowledge" topics.
I have often really wondered if certain "leg-humpers" (as WB calls them) here at ST are paid to do such.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15869683
"The US military is known to use fakes to infiltrate chat forums to gather information about potential terror groups."
I doubt that is all they visit. Also, I'm sure the US intelligence alphabet agencies are involved deeply also: CIA, NSA, DEA, etc. etc. to name a few. It's called disinformation. And they are really good at it.
I think a good way to avoid this on ST is to know the users here at ST. The climbing community is pretty tight knit. One climber knows another climber etc. "The Brother/Sisterhood of the Rope." I may not know everyone here, but I know of them, and then they know users here that I don't know. I trust that they know them.
The users that I don't trust here at ST are those who are very anonymous. They will never divulge who they hang out with or climb with, never. Can't really be sure they have ever climbed. And then they seem to pursue certain ST members with a vengeance. A few come to mind.
Some people here at ST know me. Some have climbed with me. You might think I'm nuts, but I'm a very honest, fun, and a likable guy in person. Opinionated for sure (aren't we all while on-line?), but at least I back it up. I'm very peaceful. I don't hate. I know how to share. Learned that in kindergarten. I know how to get along well with others in person.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
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You got Bush, Cofer Black, George Tenet, Middleton, Wilshire, and others totally getting caught red handed lying about the the whole 911 events both leading up to it and after you know it was an inside job.
It's all there in the official govt, docs.
But you're all too stupid to look it up.
Instead you all just spew bullsh'it at everything that isn't towed in line to the Bullsh'it "official" reports since you never read em.
Thus all you dumbsh'its who support the "Official reports" are also part of the conspiracy along with being completely owned.
You'd be really surprised how this was played out.
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Betelnut
Mountain climber
So. California
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Nov 25, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
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And Werner seems like a normal human being most times, a resident of Earth. Who woulda known?
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Nov 25, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
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Slater, that is just the tip of the iceberg. You should look in to what sort of jucy stuff was stored in Building #7.
But, I'm sure you got better things to do . . .
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
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Werner I respect you but like Caylor said your use of blanket statements condemning all of us to the same ignorance is beneath a supposedly enlightened being such as yourself.
I for one saw through the charade even as it was going down. You do yourself a great disservice by lumping all turds into one pile.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 30, 2011 - 12:21am PT
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^^^
Note that he spelt it "cheque", despite claiming to be from Los Angeles. Real red-blooded Merrycans spell it "check". Only godless socialist Canuckleheads with lots of oil and other stuff that they charge the US too much for say "cheque". He's undoubtedly part of the conspiracy, false flag and all. Probably planning to spray some chemtrails tomorrow, too.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:09am PT
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Check this out.
Confessions of a Former CIA Asset
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/08/30/911-confessions-of-a-former-cia-asset/
For her attempts to expose the truth about 9/11, Susan was arrested and prosecuted under the PATRIOT ACT, only the second US citizen to endure such a fate.
She was incarcerated and tortured for five years and denied the right to legal counsel, even though she was innocent of any crime.
This is a stunning indictment of what the United States has become, which our Founding Fathers would not recognize: a neo-fascist, militaristic police state, where surveillance is ubiquitous.
Susan Lindauer.
I submit this sworn affidavit as evidence of criminal actions by President George Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney, Attorney General John Ashcroft, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales; Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and National Security Adviser, Condoleeza Rice.
This affidavit will prove beyond any shadow of doubt that those officials in the Bush Administration knowingly and deliberately practiced “command failure” to thwart the 9/11 attack.
It will prove that those officials hyped a War with Iraq as a probable outcome of the attack, exciting motive and opportunity for an orphan intelligence team to lay explosives through the Towers to maximize damage and guarantee the outcome.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 05:42am PT
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I am blissfully ignorant of this conspiracy .
I am proud to be a batsh#t, paranoid, tinfoil, dog-abusing, drug-abusing, baby-sitter-hating, batsh#t, terms-of-service-accepting American climber but I'm not stupid!
I'd say anything over a trillion dollars is worth a cover-up, but it's not. I'm not that stupid, even if I were stupid, which I'm not. This is just gonna end up being another Dallas joke, starring Kevin Costner.
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Betelnut
Mountain climber
So. California
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Sep 12, 2012 - 06:29am PT
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Werner, are you in Yosemite or meeting other members of your
group at the Denver Airport?
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 07:41am PT
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Do a two minute research on Susan Lindauer, read the Judges decision-making when deciding to dismiss the Govt. case against her.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:06am PT
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"same time next year--"
it was fun sparring with dr. F up there, who has since admitted to LIHOPpery.
klimmer mentions david ray griffin, who was a point of contention between me and largo the year before. you see, largo had griffin for a philosophy professor in graduate school. griffin and largo's graduate advisor, john cobb, established the center for process studies at the claremont graduate school of theology, a rather intellectual mainstream protestant seminary. their schtick involved applications of the philosophy of alfred north whitehead, pretty esoteric stuff.
griffin authored more than 20 books in the course of his long academic career. when he began writing about 9/11 truth, his wife remarked: "you used to write books that put people to sleep. now you keep them awake."
griffin since persuaded cobb to join him on the dais at 9/11 truth conferences. cobb will now admit to being a "9/11 truther", but i think you have to back him into a corner and talk about your martial arts skills.
my erstwhile co-author, richard gage, keeps doing his schtick and claims quite a bit of airtime this year:
http://www2.ae911truth.org/actionalerts/2012/09/action_ESO_PBS.php
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:34am PT
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To answer the question:
What Was In Building 7?
Curious is this:
One of the most interesting tenants was then-Mayor Giuliani's Office of Emergency Management, and its emergency command center on the 23rd floor. This floor received 15 million dollars worth of renovations, including independent and secure air and water supplies, and bullet and bomb resistant windows designed to withstand 200 MPH winds.
How curious that on the day of the attack, Guiliani and his entourage set up shop in a different headquarters, abandoning the special bunker designed precisely for such an event.
Ever wonder why Guiliani left his bunker?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Sep 12, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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I know most people think this is a dead issue, and most have already made up their mind and refuse to approach the issue with an open mind. The implications are frightening I'll admit. But I ask people - especially if you haven't watched any of the various longer versions of the movie - to watch this short clip on the collapse of the World Trade Center number 7.
Politicians say it was caused by office fires. Scientists say by controlled demolition. Who do you trust.
As if you have an open mind to the possibility that it was what is seemed and nothing more.
The open mind thing goes both ways.
Dave
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 12, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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How curious that on the day of the attack, Guiliani and his entourage set up shop in a different headquarters, abandoning the special bunker designed precisely for such an event.
Ever wonder why Guiliani left his bunker?
Because it was to close to the attack?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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The bunker was put there because the WTC was considered to be a target. If they didn't want it close to where an attack might occur, then why put it there to begin with? Also, the bunker was bomb-proofed, and the attacks were more or less over--WTC7 was not a target, not tall enough.
Remember: "..., abandoning the special bunker designed precisely for such an event."
Got a better answer?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
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As if you have an open mind to the possibility that it was what is seemed and nothing more.
It seemed like controlled demolition. Even news anchors thought so.
Funny, that was one cause that was never researched or investigated ...
An open mind considers all possibilities. Controlled demolition was not considered in the investigation because of closed minds (or perhaps for other reasons).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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PBS has released a video, which has become viral, documenting expert testimony from explosive professionals regarding World Trade Center #7. Not sure what they're saying cause I'm loading up up now to watch later, but here's the link
http://video.cpt12.org/video/2270078138
Peace
Karl
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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Don't confuse them with the obvious answers Raymond, let them circle jerk without distractions.
It's their special time of the year.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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that's richard gage's recent work, karl, which i have also linked above. as i've said earlier on this thread, all gage needs is an hour of your time, and an open mind, and you start to see the light.
as someone noted previously, open minds work both ways. however an open mind which also happens to be curious will investigate, ask questions, and think for itself. eventually "both ways" ceases to be relevant.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Even news anchors thought so
wow, thanks. now i too know that it must be true...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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I have been a career fireman for the Los Angeles Fire Dept. for 25 years and a registered Republican almost as long. After 9-11 I was pissed and wanted someone to pay the price of the fallen. Over the years my view about the events that happened have changed dramatically as have most of the guys i work with who have started asking questions and not just blindly buy the conclusion presented to us by our government. The year I was hired there was a highrise fire in the First Interstate building in LA, then the highest building on the west coast. The fire burned for hours at high temps with little structural compromise. Over the years around the world other modern buildings have burned for hours and even days yet none fell. I will admit that having a jet slam into the towers changes things and might account for their collapse, but what about Building 7? Firefighters in both the Towers and Building 7 said they heard and felt blasts and a few in the basement areas the buildings minutes prior to the collapse. That Building 7 fell from fire alone smells pretty fishy. That the debris was picked up and sold immediately and did not undergo forensic study in fishy. Stuff just doesnt add up.
I have lost faith and trust in our leaders and their explanations of events past and present.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Well, there were scientific studies done on what happened. On both WTC 7 and the Twin Towers. Certainly one can say that those were part of a cover-up, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.
And yes, the First Interstate building and other large buildings didn't collapse. But they weren't necessarily built the same way as WTC, and they didn't have loaded jetliners fly into them and dump hundreds or thousands of gallons of jet fuel into them. Not an apples to apples comparison.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
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If there was no conspiracy we would not be having this debate because all the evidence, especially the steel frame, would have been saved both for analyzing the crime and to develop better engineering for future buildings. There would be no speculation on how the buildings failed because the steel remains would tell the exact story.
All the evidence was gotten rid of with great speed and efficiency. The steel was all shipped to the China and Korea and melted down in steel mills. It's a crime to destroy evidence of a crime. And it's a crime to destroy evidence needed for an engineering examination.
The only reason to destroy all the evidence was to cover up a big crime committed by the US Government.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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Seeing it proven in a court of law that there WAS a conspiracy to execute Martin Luther King, and that there was sworn testimony from several sources that there were 2 Army sniper teams of 2 soldiers in the area (one filmed the event from the roof of the fire station across the way, per court testimony from the fire captain who physically let them into the building) has made me disbelieve other things our government is saying.
However, this is way out there.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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wow, thanks. now i too know that it must be true...
Hawkeye
Nothing like a smug reply, eh?
Apparently, you and Raymond can't open your minds enough to ask the obvious question, which is, "Could it have been controlled demolition?"
If you are open enough to ask this question, then you will begin to see that yes, it could have been. From there, the idea is to investigate whether or not it was.
The "officials" never asked, and they never investigated this path. Your minds, like theirs, are closed to the possibility. Not only that, but saying that you now "know that it must be true" reveals you to be less than inquisitive.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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All the truth is in Popular Mechanics.
It's the god damn gospel truth of what happened.
All the sheep read it along with the NY times ......
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 12, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
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Apparently, you and Raymond can't open your minds enough to ask the obvious question, which is, "Could it have been controlled demolition?"
Or could they have moved out of the emergency center because it was to close to large buildings penetrated with airplanes?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Sep 12, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
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If you are open enough to ask this question, then you will begin to see that yes, it could have been. From there, the idea is to investigate whether or not it was.
You also need to ask if the Spaghetti monster did it. Or how about the French. They could have done it. Investigate EVERYONE! maybe Werner did it. He should be investigated too.
And of course, everyone gets to play expert. It'll be so much fun!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 12, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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Well, there were scientific studies done on what happened. On both WTC 7 and the Twin Towers. Certainly one can say that those were part of a cover-up, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.
This documentary has engineers and demolition experts detailing why the investigation was a flawed whitewash
http://video.cpt12.org/video/2270078138
The evidence makes saying the investigation was a cover-up, not just happy or sad talk. Getting rid of the evidence is a cover-up and not even trying to investigate an alternative to "it caught fire so it collapsed from that" is a cover-up. The official investigation even concludes it can't explain some stuff even while it says "no worries, look the other way"
and the whole 9-11 investigation was a sham as well, even the leaders of it admit they wree swayed by political consideration. I mean come on, when you admit you don't bother to follow the money, you're a either the biggest fool in the world or covering stuff up.
People just can't face the fact that our government and system is as flawed as it it so they put their head in the sand and refuse to look openly at the arguments. There are some wacko theories out there and perhaps even disinformation but that doesn't invalidate real evidence
Peace
Karl
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 12, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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So if it was a big heinous conspiracy why did they wait until it was fully evacuated?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 12, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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"it takes months, therefore this event must have been planned in advance"
Just about says it all.
There was a plan (successful) to fly planes into the Twin Towers. The backup plan was to blow up WTC7 if the first plan failed so several months were spent rigging it with explosives. When the first plan succeeded, the planners thought, WTF, blow up WTC7 so all our rigging efforts would not be in vain.
or
There were two groups planning independently. One, two fly planes into two buildings, the other to blow up a single building. As chance would have it the two d-days coincided.
Sounds plausible.
Urban planning run amok.
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sharperblue
Mountain climber
oakland, california
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Sep 12, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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jeebus. Honestly, why the f*ck does anyone have any questions about this - ? what do you mean 'why' - ? the Saudis have been lying about their proven reserves for decades, and for good reason. this world and our (US) currency are both based on oil; boots-on-the-ground real-world control of the oil is all that matters; that, and preventing it's control from passing to China. that is all that flipping matters.
no one on the f-ing planet questions any of this stuff except the spoon-fed americans.
need major boots on the ground in the ME; ergo: justify 'war'. the end. turn off the retard box and read your history or have a chat with a DC-based attorney sometime. there has ever been only one strategy since John D enabled the modern western world with regards to the ME: Divide and Conquer. Set Sunni against Shiite (sorry, you thought the 'arab spring' was spontaneous?) step in and clean up. we and our allies get the cheap oil, the arms guys have a wet dream, ancient hatreds are perpetuated, the media pushes the message of choice, the poor kids from the south and inner cities get their legs blown off, and the banks loan the money to enable the operation. frankly, the western intelligence agencies are balls-to-the-wall badasses for pulling this off. sucks many innocent people were collateral. i assure you those guys sleep well at night.
there is nothing you can do about this. US politics on a Federal level have been a joke since Eisenhower. get over it and get on with your lives.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
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You also need to ask if the Spaghetti monster did it.
Some folks are just too smart for their own britches.
Yes, the Spaghetti monster.
Because it's a well-know fact that the monster, like controlled demolition, has been know to take down buildings, and there are signs everywhere that that is just what did it.
Mind if I call you a schmuck?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
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Or could they have moved out of the emergency center because it was to close to large buildings penetrated with airplanes?
Actually, I stand corrected--they moved out after the first plane hit, but before the second.
I suppose that might be a reason. But to me, it doesn't seem like it would have been a big enough threat to move our of the bunker that was designed for just such an indecent. Remember, it housed all the communication controls.
Think about it. Would you have moved out of that bunker just because a tower was hit by a plane? I know I probably would not have, given that the bunker was build for just that type of episode.
To me it's suspicious. To you, it's exactly what a coward might do.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Sep 12, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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BES,st
Any fireman laughing at the scene of a tragic incident is not suspicious IMO, I have been in some pretty hairy situations in my career from dodging drive by shooting rounds in South Central LA, climbing out a window to save my ass at fires and jumping off roofs during roof collapse at a fire and I can honestly say a few of those incidents had me laughing or rather smiling and shaking my head in disbelief at what was happening to me and realizing that I was most likely going to survive. My wife gets pissed at me sometimes because I have a smile on my face while describing some horenous incident I went on during my shift. I think it's a coping mechanism more than anything. I have seen that shot of th chief running and can relate.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
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Commercial airliners have strobes.
None on the so called flights into the WTC towers.
Ho man .... they'll now have to Photoshop those in also to make sure all the sheep remain in the corral with Popular Mechanics ......
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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i will get right on the photoshop work.
i will also show a little more debris headed to WTC7 just to make ti look a bit better.
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
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"So-called flights into the WTC". WTF? So you believe a missile flew into the Pentagon, and dont believe planes flew into the World Trade Centres? And you think we're all weird?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 12, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
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Werner, you're not Juan de Fuca. But it is a good try!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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What about the people that died when their plane hit the Pentagon?
Good question Dr. F.
However, just because many folks don't believe the official story put forth by the 9-11 Commission doesn't mean they know the answer to questions such as these.
For this reason, there are thousands of people who want a real investigation into 9-11.
Now, here's a question for you: Why did Bush have to be forced into creating the 9-11 Commission?
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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"Questions such as these". K-man, putting aside our little bad-tempered exchange from a while ago, there is no question. They died in the crash. Their relatives will attest to that if you contact them. Why not research that?
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
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What about the people that died when their plane hit the Pentagon?
Excellent question seeing as the plane did not hit the Pentagon! Why don't you ask Dick Cheney.
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
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Kalimon - why don't you ask the relatives of those who died in that plane what they believe?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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They died in the crash. Their relatives will attest to that if you contact them.
The relatives of those on the plane might attest that those passengers were killed that day. This I certainly believe could be true.
Yet still, I still don't believe the official story. And you know something--many of the folks whose loved ones died that day don't believe it either.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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Jaytee, you clearly did not understand my comment.
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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Evidence K-man? Interviews with such doubting relatives of those who died in that crash?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Jaytee, I don't have evidence, and neither do you. How on Earth is somebody who was not on the plane, nor nowhere near it after it left the airport, going to know what actually happened to it.
Yes, for a second there I bet you thought you were pretty smart.
BTW, ever heard of the Jersey Girls? Without them, Bush would have never formed the 9.11 Commission:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Girls
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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Everything is just speculation without a real investigation.
We know, from many sources, that the 9/11 Commission was a dog and pony show. Yet folks will suspend disbelief in order to convince themselves that they believe it.
The funny thing is, if you actually begin to look at the facts behind the report(s), the whole ball of wax starts to stink like rotting fish in a harbor.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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Wasn't Bin Laden trained by the CIA in their insurgency camps to counter the Russian occupation of Afghanistan? I am pretty sure you will find documentation. Bush's henchmen took deception to a whole new level in case you are not aware.
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
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K-man, I'm not trying to be smart, I just wonder if you've actually looked into the possibility that that the relatives of those who died in that horrific crash have the same beliefs as you do. Sorry if I pissed you off before, sounding sarcastic in our previous exchanges, I didn't mean to. I just don't believe any of this stuff, and I'm the most cynical bastard around. I spent a year or two boring everyone senseless about JFK after reading the Garrison book until I finally realised it was all horseshit & Oliver Stone was gullible.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Sep 12, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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Jaytee . . . where have you been? Many of the people that have questioned the "official" record since the "incident" have been family members of 9/11 victims. This is well documented in case you wish to confirm this fact. Maybe you need to aim before you shoot.
Please review the video evidence and notice how the buildings drop straight down in a nice controlled demolition fashion. Don't you think a reckless collapse is much more likely if civilian aircraft and aviation fuel fires were the actual culprits. Really now!?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Sep 12, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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^^lol^^
Which direction does gravity work?
Did you think the buildings should have toppled over when they were struck?
The tops of wtc 1 and 2 rotated slightly in the direction of most damage, then came straight down. That's how gravity works.
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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Kalimon- maybe you should aim before you shoot. I was addressing the Pentagon missile fantasy. Any relatives of those who died on the plane believe a missile hit too? It's all horseshit man. Werner doesn't believe planes hit the WTC, believes a missile hit the Pentagon. Ho man!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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Thx Jaytee.
I understand that things could have happened very close to the way the Official story tells. But I also see the changes that happened as a result of 9/11, the reactions of those in charge after it happened, and all the absurd coincidences that happened in order for things to play out as the story tells. It's like watching a Hollywood movie--You know that it could never happen in real life, but you go along with it anyhow. And maybe that's why I have a hard time with those types of action flicks--I can only suspend my disbelief for so long before I get bored.
There are so many things that make sense only if there was something screwy going on that my sensitivity meter started to get hair-triggered. Oh, this? Now that? What, they don't want to follow the money trail?? The puts on AA? The Bush had to be forced to convene the 9/11 Commission, than he stacked the deck with pigeons, on and on.
We know it didn't go down the way the the Official story tells it (those on the commission itself tell us so). So where does the fantasy story fade and the real one kick in?? Somebody knows, and they ain't telling.
And, for what it's worth, I don't believe in the Magic Bullet either.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
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All scientific analysis of the way the building fell say that it was completely natural for them to fall that way W/O explosives or any kind of demolition
No, not "all". In fact, most analysis did not produce the results that the Official Story claimed. That's why FEMA handed over the analysis to NIST.
And isn't it odd that you will never know how they conducted their scientific analysis? You know, that sh#t be sealed.
"Believe me, it was totally natural."
OK, but isn't part of "science" being able to reproduce the results?
No, not here my friend. Take my word for it...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 13, 2012 - 12:18am PT
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fyi, a number of relatives of the victims of 9/11 have become quite prominent in the truth movement. some of the first to do so were nicknamed "the jersey girls," several widows from new jersey who prodded president bush to establish the 9/11 commission. when the commission had done its work, its two principals, thomas kean and lee hamilton, pointed fingers at each other and beat their chests and called their own work a miserable failure. two of its glaring omissions were a complete failure to mention the issue of building 7 and a complete exclusion of the testimony of norman mineta, who witnessed dick cheney's standdown of defenses as the plane approached the pentagon.
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Sep 13, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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Cheers K-man! Yep, I'm sure there are many unpleasant stories lurking in the undergrowth, and many questions needing answers. Much as I find the Bush /Cheney /Rumsfeld cabal deeply unpleasant, it just seems staggeringly unlikely that they were ' responsible' for 9/11. Maybe I'm staggeringly naive :) Best wishes.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 13, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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Isn't it instructive that the Project Bojinka trial run was on December 9, a mere two days, after the anniversary date of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor?
Isn't it also interesting that Bush-Cheney completely disregarded this information when it was recapped to them?
Could it be that frustrated Project Bojinka recruits actually wired up WTC7 with explosives, leading to it's collapse in order to "show up" binladen for abandoning them?
Filipino authorities foiled a January 1995 plot to simultaneously explode 12 commercial jumbo jets on an Asian-Pacific route to the United States. It was uncovered after an apartment fire in Manila exposed the details.
Manila police discovered the plans on a laptop while searching the apartment of Ramzi Yousef, who would later be convicted of organizing the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. The search was conducted two weeks before the scheduled attack dates, Jan. 21 and 22.
The plot was dubbed Project Bojinka by its planners. It was developed by Yousef and his uncle, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was identified by US officials as a rising aide to Osama bin Laden.
The plan was to use liquid explosives to down the planes over the Pacific , including United and Northwest airliners.
A trial run of the explosives was conducted on a Dec. 9, 1994, flight from Manila to Tokyo, prosecutors said.
Investigators said the bomb was assembled from liquid explosives, stored in a bottle of lens cleaner, and components from a modified digital watch. The bomb detonated under a seat, killing a Japanese passenger and injuring six. The Philippines Airlines flight made an emergency landing in Okinawa, Japan.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 13, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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9/11 - the big cover-up?
Even the chair of the 9/11 Commission now admits that the official evidence they were given was 'far from the truth'.
...
The chair and vice chair of the 9/11 Commission, respectively Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, assert in their book, Without Precedent, that they were "set up to fail" and were starved of funds to do a proper investigation. They also confirm that they were denied access to the truth and misled by senior officials in the Pentagon and the federal aviation authority; and that this obstruction and deception led them to contemplate slapping officials with criminal charges.
Despite the many public statements by 9/11 commissioners and staff members acknowledging they were repeatedly lied to, not a single person has ever been charged, tried, or even reprimanded, for lying to the 9/11 Commission.
There is certainly more, if you care to look...
Like here:
9/11 Commission report is a lie
...
Following are two of the more than 40 reasons why the official story about what happened on 9/11 is untrue.
First, who were the hijackers? We do not know. None of those named appear on any of the passenger lists released by the airlines. Most important, six of the men named by the government are still alive and have never even been to the United States. We know that because European media (as reported by The Associated Press, the London Telegraph and the BBC) have interviewed them. It is not a matter of mistaken identity not being noticed or someone using a false passport. The commission insists that the people they named were the hijackers but that claim is demonstrably false.
...
Second, in the months after 9/11 all of the surviving New York City Fire Department personnel who were on the scene were interviewed. Those oral histories were recorded and withheld from the public until Aug. 15, 2005. Only after losing in court three times did the city of New York finally release them. All 503 are now posted on The New York Times Web site. Why did the city fight so hard to keep them from the public?
It turns out those oral histories reveal details about what was happening in the World Trade Center buildings that are completely inconsistent with the tale told by the commission. Dozens of firefighters and medics reported hearing, seeing and feeling explosives going off in the buildings that collapsed.
I don't know about you, but it raises my curiosity when firemen and medics report large explosions, yet all those eye-witness reports are subverted. For me, that's a RED FLAG.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Sep 13, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
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Sparky,
Thanks for the video. Pretty thought provoking.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Architects & Engineers - Solving the Mystery of WTC 7 - AE911Truth.org or the video above with Ed Asner in the first 23 seconds explain “Now look at modern steel framing in buildings” and explains how they last forever and architects and engineers of today design buildings today that will endure the forces of nature like earthquakes, fires, and hurricanes.
CIA insider or asset Susan Lindauar is now back in custody for leaking new information:
CIA secretly welded the steel anchor rods to the new San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge knowing that they would especially become brittle and snap. The idea was for the bridge to collapse so it would be considered a terrorist attack since everyone knows steel never breaks under any condition including an earthquake, blast or fire.
They knew by not creating expansion joint and designs to better dissipate the energy of a blast/fire would look like the work of a terrorist cell. Plus the sound of the cables breaking would be like bombs going off.
She said the idea was planted by our own government to create chaos for new infrastructure since our bridges are aging with the recent one in the state of Washington north of Seattle and another by a train.
The CIA denied any thing to do with this because their work is exclusively for foreign and not domestic issues.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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700 experts from outside the U.S. all say that all three buildings were controlled demolition.
The owner, Larry Silverstein, said "We're pulling it" right before # 7 collapsed.
The leading U.S. expert initially said it was controlled demolition, but then changed his mind. Hard to say if he meant it, or was pressured or threatened to do so.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
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damn that UFO girl is hot!
bump
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Sep 10, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
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After 13 years Paul Craig Roberts
September 10, 2014 |
The tragedy of September 11, 2001, goes far beyond the deaths of those who died in the towers and the deaths of firefighters and first responders who succumbed to illnesses caused by inhalation of toxic dust. For thirteen years a new generation of Americans has been born into the 9/11 myth that has been used to create the American warfare/police state.
The corrupt Bush and Obama regimes used 9/11 to kill, maim, dispossess and displace millions of Muslims in seven countries, none of whom had anything whatsoever to do with 9/11.
A generation of Americans has been born into disdain and distrust of Muslims.
A generation of Americans has been born into a police state in which privacy and constitutional protections no longer exist.
A generation of Americans has been born into continuous warfare while needs of citizens go unmet.
A generation of Americans has been born into a society in which truth is replaced with the endless repetition of falsehoods.
According to the official story, on September 11, 2001, the vaunted National Security State of the World’s Only Superpower was defeated by a few young Saudi Arabians armed only with box cutters. The American National Security State proved to be totally helpless and was dealt the greatest humiliation ever inflicted on any country claiming to be a power.
That day no aspect of the National Security State worked. Everything failed.
The US Air Force for the first time in its history could not get intercepter jet fighters into the air.
The National Security Council failed.
All sixteen US intelligence agencies failed as did those of America’s NATO and Israeli allies.
Air Traffic Control failed.
Airport Security failed four times at the same moment on the same day. The probability of such a failure is zero.
If such a thing had actually happened, there would have been demands from the White House, from Congress, and from the media for an investigation. Officials would have been held accountable for their failures. Heads would have rolled.
Instead, the White House resisted for one year the 9/11 families’ demands for an investigation. Finally, a collection of politicians was assembled to listen to the government’s account and to write it down. The chairman, vice chairman, and legal counsel of the 9/11 Commission have said that information was withheld from the commission, lies were told to the commission, and that the commission “was set up to fail.” The worst security failure in history resulted in not a single firing. No one was held responsible.
Washington concluded that 9/11 was possible because America lacked a police state.
The PATRIOT Act, which was awaiting the event was quickly passed by the congressional idiots. The Act established executive branch independence of law and the Constitution. The Act and follow-up measures have institutionalized a police state in “the land of the free.”
Osama bin Laden, a CIA asset dying of renal failure, was blamed despite his explicit denial. For the next ten years Osama bin Laden was the bogyman that provided the excuse for Washington to kill countless numbers of Muslims. Then suddenly on May 2, 2011, Obama claimed that US Navy SEALs had killed bin Laden in Pakistan. Eyewitnesses on the scene contradicted the White House’s story. Osama bin Laden became the only human in history to survive renal failure for ten years. There was no dialysis machine in what was said to be bin Laden’s hideaway. The numerous obituaries of bin Laden’s death in December 2001 went down the memory hole. And the SEAL team died a few weeks later in a mysterious helicopter crash in Afghanistan. The thousands of sailors on the aircraft carrier from which bin Laden was said to have been dumped into the Indian Ocean wrote home that no such burial took place.
The fairy tale story of bin Laden’s murder by Seal Team Six served to end the challenge by disappointed Democrats to Obama’s nomination for a second term. It also freed the “war on terror” from the bin Laden constraint. Washington wanted to attack Libya, Syria, and Iran, countries in which bin Laden was known not to have organizations, and the succession of faked bin Laden videos, in which bin Laden grew progressively younger as the fake bin Laden claimed credit for each successive attack, had lost credibility among experts.
Watching the twin towers and WTC 7 come down, it was obvious to me that the buildings were not falling down as a result of structural damage. When it became clear that the White House had blocked an independent investigation of the only three steel skyscrapers in world history to collapse as a result of low temperature office fires, it was apparent that there was a coverup.
After 13 years people at home and abroad find the government’s story less believable.
The case made by independent experts is now so compelling that mainstream media has opened to it. Here is Richard Gage of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth on C-SPAN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zbv2SvBEec#t=23
After years of persistence a group in New York has secured the necessary number of valid signatures to put on the ballot a vote to investigate the cause of the collapse of the three WTC buildings. The official account, if correct, means that existing fire and building codes are insufficient to protect the public and that all other steel high rise structures are subject to the same failure. The group has been clever to frame the issue in terms of public safety and not in terms of 9/11 truth.
New York authorities, of course, continue to oppose the initiative. The question now rests on a judge’s ruling. It is difficult to imagine a judge going against the government in such a major way, but the group will have made the point that the government has no confidence in the truth of its own story.
Over these 13 years, physicists, chemists, architects, engineers, and first responders have provided massive evidence that completely disproves the official account of the failure of the three skyscrapers. The response to experts has been for non-experts to call experts “conspiracy theorists.” In other words, the defenders of the government’s story have no scientific or factual basis on which to stand. So they substitute name-calling.
9/11 was used to fundamentally alter the nature of the US government and its relationship to the American people. Unaccountable executive power has replaced due process and the checks and balances established by the US Constitution. In the name of National Security, executive power knows no restraints. Essentially, Americans today have no rights if the government targets them.
Those Americans born after 9/11 were born into a different country from the rest of us. Having never experienced constitutional government, they will not know what they have lost.
The anthrax attacks of October 2001 have been forgotten, but Professor Graeme MacQueen in The 2001 Anthrax Deception (Clarity Press, 2014) shows that the anthrax attacks played an essential role in setting the stage for the government’s acquisition of unaccountable police state power. Two Democratic Senate committee chairmen, Thomas Daschle and Patrick Leahy, were disturbed by the Bush regime’s overreach for carte blanche power, and were in a position to block the coming police state legislation and the ability of the executive branch alone to take America to war.
Both senators received anthrax letters, as did major news organizations. The TV network news anchors, such as Dan Rather, who compared the collapse of WTC skyscrapers to buildings brought down by controlled demolition, had not yet been fired by Republicans on framed-up charges.
Initially, the anthrax letters, which caused the deaths of some USPS employees, were seen as the second stage of the 9/11 attack. Fear multiplied. The senators and media shut up. Then it was discovered that the anthrax was a unique kind produced only by a US government military facility.
The response to this monkey wrench thrown into the government’s propaganda, was the FBI’s frame-up of a dead man, Bruce Edwards Ivins, who had been employed in the military lab that produced the anthrax and was driven to suicide by the false charges. The dead man’s colleagues did not believe one word of the government’s false story, and nothing in the dead man’s past indicated any motive or instability that would have led him to such a deed.
Initially, the US government tried to frame up Steven Jay Hatfill, but despite the best efforts of the New York Times and Nicholas Kristof the attempt to frame Hatfill failed. Hatfill received $5 million from the US government for the false accusation that ruined his life. So the corrupt US government moved on to Ivins.
Ivins was dead and couldn’t defend himself, but his colleagues did.
The entire episode stinks to high heaven. Justice is something that exists outside the borders of the United States. Never expect to find justice within the United States.
Most Americans are unaware of the extent to which the federal government owns the experts who can contradict its fairy tales. For example, no competent physicist can possibly believe the official story of the destruction of the three WTC buildings. But physics departments in US universities are heavily dependent on federal money. Any physicist who speaks his mind jeopardizes not only his own career but also the career of all of his colleagues. Physicist Steven Jones, who first pointed to the use of thermite in the destruction of the two towers had to agree to having his university buy out his tenure or his university was faced with losing all federal financing.
The same constraints operate in the private sector. High rise architects and structural engineers who express doubts about the official explanation of the collapse of three skyscrapers are viewed by potential clients as Muslim apologists and conspiracy kooks. The clients, of course, have no expert knowledge with which to assess the issue, but they are indoctrinated with ceaseless, endless, repetition that 9/11 was Osama bin Laden’s attack on America. Their indoctrination makes them immune to facts.
The 9/11 lie has persisted for 13 years. Millions of Muslims have paid for this lie with their lives, the destruction of their families, and with their dislocation. Most Americans remain comfortable with the fact that their government has destroyed in whole or part seven countries based on a lie Washington told to cover up an inside job that launched the crazed neoconservatives’ drive for Washington’s World Empire.
See also: http://www.globalresearch.ca/no-airliner-black-boxes-found-at-the-world-trade-center-senior-officials-dispute-official-911-claim/5400891
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 10, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
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It really is incredible, the Official Story has become a mainstay in the media--but you look at certain parts of the story and you just wonder how anybody can swallow what they pitch.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Sep 10, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
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I love these 9/11 Truther threads!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 10, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
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My cousin spent a few tours in the desert as a demolition engineer.
I asked him about the towers.
He looked at me and said "thermite dude"
The pro's know.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Sep 11, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Sep 11, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
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While filming today I finished an interview and ask the talent the date. His assistant looked aghast to hear that I didn't know the date and blurted out,
IT'S 9/11, NEVER FORGET !!!
I replied; oh yeah, I forgot.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Sep 11, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
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How did they get the explosives in there?
Sounds a bit like 'How do they get the ropes up there?'
LOL
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