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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 3, 2011 - 06:55am PT
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My trusty Blazer ate its flywheel after 200,000 mi - put a sign on it "runs good, but won't start". Someone gave me 100 bucks for it. Not working now and trying to justify the capital/operating cost of another 4WD.
You don't need 4wd at the Gunks, or Red Rocks. Not in the Valley, nor Tahquitz/Suicide, nor most of the Sierra Eastside. Not for Eldorado, Boulder Canyon, RMNP. Not for Owens Gorge, Smith Rocks, Rifle, Shelf Road. Went all these places in my 2wd 77 Dodge Van.
Trying to think. The only places I can remember engaging 4wd were to get to Glitter Gulch at Queen Creek, the approach to Mt Humphreys near Bishop (although I saw hi clearance 2WD at the trailhead)...
What am I missing?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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You're missing a lot of the stuff that's not on the "national radar" and therefore devoid of the unwashed (2WD) masses.
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SeaJellie
Trad climber
Booolduh
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A question I contemplate a lot these days myself, as I dream about 2012 adventures.
I think high clearance scores a few more points than 4WD overall. Black Velvet Canyon at RR and the Sore Heal parking at RRG, for example, don't require 4WD but even a couple more inches of clearance over 5" is nice. (I know, because I tried to get my four door sporty sedan into those places with not great results.)
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Hart Draw, Utah ( 50 pitches)
Its 10 miles of 2 track through several washes sometimes washed out. I have got stuck with an AWD gmc Safai and used a pull. B. Scarpelli made in with his 2 wd pickup with many scraps and higher speeds, but needed a pull on the way out.
Reese Mt WY (200 pitches) in the Spring. 5 miles of 2 track through 2 mud holes or over some terrain too steep for 2wd. After a rainstorm I could not make it over the steep hill in 4 wd as the rocks were too slick. I now have a winch on each vehicle.
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lars johansen
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Most of Central Nevada
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jfailing
Trad climber
Lone Pine
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I've been thinking a lot about this recently, as it's looking like I'm going to be ditching the 4WD rig for a 2WD wagon with better gas mileage...
Posters above are right, at any of the main climbing areas, it's not absolutely necessary. If you're driving long distances in between climbing spots, the value you'll be getting from a car with better mileage will probably pay off. At least that's how I'm justifying my position...
Off the top of my head, the times I've used 4WD at climbing spots are: to get farther up the roads into the Buttermilks, Tuttle Creek Canyon, driving up near Mammoth in the snow, getting closer to Black Velvet Canyon up some rough road...
The way I see it, some of my climbing partners have 4WD rigs, so I can hopefully just hitch a ride with them when the going gets rough.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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White Rim (most), incl. Monument Basin
Henries crags
Sister Superior, or walk
crossing North Cottonwood Wash, sometimes
Sixshooters
some Utah West Desert crags
some crags in the Beaver Dam mtns
others in marginal weather
you don't ski or ice climb?
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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Mostly thinking about fair weather rock climbs these days.
Used to ski alot. Always saw 4x4's that spun off the road racing to ski the powder. Better traction, yes, but you can't really drive any faster. And if someone ahead is stuck, you are too, till you get them out.
Ice climbing not so much. Next life maybe.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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It helps for plenty of western Sierra areas, but I can't say it's necessary. Then again I don't own one. I figure with my sedan, if I ever get stuck, someone with a 4WD can pull me out. Knowing my tendency to do things to excess, if I ever got a 4WD, I would probably find a way to get completely and permanently stuck.
John
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
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Dingus
I stand corrected. Once the chains are on, you have to crawl... and ain't it fun putting the chains on in a storm!!!
So yes, if you ski powder, you'd better consider the best 4WD you can afford. And if yer a city fed yahoo, don't drive it too fast.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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I think if you put it in 4Low you could probably 4WD right up the 3rd Flatiron but the Naked Edge would require a good winch. does that count?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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"The Sixshooters"?
Really? How close do you try to get? I'd say "any" car for those.
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strangeday
Trad climber
Brea ca.
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Shuteye ridge seemed to require 4x4, but I don't think most places in California really need it. I've seen a lot of jeeps and such around Moab though, there's gotta be some stuff out there where you need it... Maybe ibex too?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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My guess to the OP, almost none.
A good driver in a VW bug can get to almost any climbing area a 4X4 can and with a lot less impact and pollution. Hell, I used to take my fully gear loaded MGB with only 3" of ground clearance, up and down roads past stuck 4X4s because I know how to drive. Be kind to Ma Nature, back away from the Hummer and learn to drive. If you need to DRIVE any closer to a rock then you should just stay in the gym.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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I was talking about the Urban Commandont's Ding.
Believe me I fully know the value of a stout 4X4 and a good driver.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Plenty of places on the west side of the sierras between Yosemite and Inyokern 4x4 is really a good idea (or a complete lack of care for beating the crap out of your vehicle.) Some places it's required - car just won't go there. Also if you're hitting these types of places 20+ times per year then it's great. It also makes life easier - no worries about much of anything in places like Cochise where it's not required but people routinely have road related issues.
Shuteye for example....I once took a volvo to High Eagle in Shuteye (the camp just before the road becomes the bidness. I will never do that again - I'm amazed (and so many others are too) I made it. You can't go past the gate without it. Grey eagle: many people back off early on with a car. Many of my camp sites up there are 4x4 access only.
EDIT: It wasn't my car I took up there - no wonder she's an ex...
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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philo,
A good driver in a VW bug can get to almost any climbing area a 4X4 can
you must be clueless what a locking differential 4x4 can do. Some time ago a bug driver made such a statement to me. We made a pass over and back on the terrain challenge. He did not even bother trying the terrain but you can come out here Philo with your bug and I'll show you the run.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dude,
You're asking about forbidden secret knowledge.
Can't say. But yes, these places require 4X4 and them some.
There are hidden "paradises" out there away from the masses.
And they should stay that way.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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I did not say a VW bug could go everywhere a 4X4 could.
I did say a good driver could get one to virtually all US climbing areas.
To assume that your misinterpretation of my words indicates I am unfamiliar with off roading and 4X4 driving would be foolish.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Buttermilks in winter (sometimes)
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Plenty of areas in the eastern California desert require a 4x4, but many of those areas are little known and rarely visited which is kinda nice. I like the fact I can really get away from the crowds and explore new areas that I couldn't in a low clearance vehicle.
The fact that I can make it out to the Saline Valley Hot Springs during any month of the year, that fact alone makes owning a 4x4, or two, all the more worth it.
Roxyjoxy,
Prett broad statement about Kali folk, while there are plent of idiots with big lifted trucks that couldn't drive over a dead cat there are also plent of Kali folks with well set up sensible vehicles that know how to use them the way they were meant to be used.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I would add:
What area does 2WD not cut it, when the approach is OVER 1.5 hours added by not having 4WD. Black Velvet canyon, Humphreys, areas in back country San Diego... 4WD is NOT a necessity. Just saves time. So is the money you save worth it, or do you plan on waking up 2 hours early and saving thousands of dollars? and hiking ain't all that bad.
-Chevy Cavalier owner
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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edited because I'm trying to be less of a hater
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Gdavis makes a good point - a lot of places only 'require' 4x4 to save 2 hours plus of nar on the approach.
Batrock - don't feed the troll..
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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just hike in.
or not.
depends on the baggage.
4 wheel only necessary about 5 times in my total life,
so much gas wasted on non used 4wd.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I have about 4-5 places that can only be reached by 4x4 or a full day hike or more. I prefer to spend the time climbing instead of hiking. All these areas are high desert and would require lots of water to be carried in, another benefit of being able to drive in.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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rubicon trail?
i can hike faster than those stupid jeeps,
jus sayin, wtf, over?
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I would never go near the Rubicon, too many knuckledraggers, trash and noise. The Whites and Inyos and beyond are full of great climbing areas that need a 4x4 to get to. Way worth it.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Yeah, but also true is sometimes in the mud or ice or snow you screw up and 4wd helps you get out. Rhyang can certify that I almost got my FWD Volvo wagon stuck in mud on a bluebird day dispersed-camping outside of Yosemite. Miwoksurfer can certify that I polished the undercarriage on the road to Table Mountain. Others drive better than me, which is why my next car will be a Unimog.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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dang that makes my penis large,
now what?
911...it has been more than 5 hours...
gotta quit the zollaff
bang bang bang, all night, nuthin comes out...
jus sayin, wtf, over?
the ol lady goes to sleep and i feel like a chimp in a zoo cage,
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Murcy, now that is the real deal off roader. Makes the Hummer look like the crap show it is.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I have spent enough time on unpaved roads to know that sure, a 2WD will make it fine, but a vehicle with modern 4x4 really smooths out the washboard. Your kidneys will like you.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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For those that think if they get stuck, I wouldn't automatically assume the next guy in a large rig is going to be willing to screw his vehicle up to get you our of your predicament.
As others have mentioned, higher clearance and good driving skills are worth much more than 4wd. Hatcher Pass in Alaska requires a higher clearance vehicle although I've seen some old Loyales and maybe a beater Camry back there. Seen a few oil pans clearly destroyed on roads like that too.
For mileage and off road capabilities and price, newer Outbacks simply can't be beat. Subarus with good tires are also the best vehicles I have ever driven in snow, by a long shot. (Discalimer: I have never driven a Quattro)
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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All you need is this ride. Then add a winch and a locker in the rear and you can go most places.
Though I am leaning towards this one..
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I'm ridin' with Moosie.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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You know you'll never get a straight answer to this. Not like the people who know are going to share their secret areas.....
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2011 - 07:24am PT
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According to the SUV and truck advertisements, all of them.
I'm guessing that 1% of 4x4 buyers in the general population really need one. Maybe 30% ?? of climbers get their money's worth from owning one.
Also if you're hitting these types of places 20+ times per year then it's great.
Agreed. Then you're one of the 30%.
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2011 - 07:37am PT
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You know you'll never get a straight answer to this. Not like the people who know are going to share their secret areas.....
Lets just consider the ones everyone knows about, where duffers like me hang out (mostly).
... I just thought of another place I pushed the magic lever. Approach to elephants perch in the sawtooths.
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NA_Kid
Big Wall climber
The Bear State
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Not sure about the rest of actual 4WD owners out there, but i sure am damn happy i own a 4WD, with a locker, with skid plates, with large tires, lifted, with a winch, with bumpers, and a comfy drivers seat.
I could not have it any other way
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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I once took a 68 Datsun 510 sedan to the TOP of the 4wd road going into the Crestones. Everybody that saw it there thought I'd helicoptered it in. Of course when I got back to Gunnison, the mechanic that looked at it said I needed a new clutch and that the "toe-in" was out 2 1/2 inches, the worst he'd ever seen. I wore out a fairly new set of tires just on the 120 mile trip back
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Rhyang can certify that I almost got my FWD Volvo wagon stuck in mud on a bluebird day dispersed-camping outside of Yosemite.
No, your Volvo was definitely stuck. Took four guys pushing to get it unstuck.
Bluebird day ? It was near midnight .. not easy to see anything. That should teach you to drive carefully offroad :)
That area has plenty of areas without mudbogs. I've bivied there a lot. But for those of you who don't get out of the city much .. beware >:)
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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I think if you aren't skiing or ice climbing 2wd is sufficient with decent clearance. Beyond that just bring your mountain bike if you don't want to hike the extra bit of the ways in.
And yes, Murcy could probably get his vovlo to 90% of the climbing areas in the US, but who doesn't want a European Military Transport Vehicle.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I love a good 4X4 and am completely sold on AWD for every day driveing but BINTD I went a shiton of places with 2wd.
rental sedan into black velvet, Honda civic into county road 16Z down by durango.. rental sedan all the way out to thr rim of Torro Weep on the Grand caynon...
I used to have a Syncro Vanagon and that 4X4 was as agressive as any that i have ever experienced includeing my F150 W Chains. Problem was it caused VW anxiety on long roadtrips w/ full toolbox..
MY dream rig is a Sprinter for sheerheadroom and useable space but the lack of 4X4 makes me want Dingus's rig.. seems like the cargo van has a lot less room than a sprinter but heck, you can not have everything....
Crestone needle is real rough, Airport tower was pretty rough and Cleopatras Chair real rough. Those are the only 3 spots that I remember where a rental car with Extra insurance would not get you there ;)
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
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Totaled my honda CRV when I hit an Elk last year.
Drove everything, subaru outback is the best current AWD, and has 8.7 inches of ground clearance, 29 mpg highway.
I ended up buying a toyota 4-runner as Elk insurance, great vehicle, but kinda wish I had bought the out back. Subaru/honda CRV is MUCH better in the snow IMO.
A well drivven out back will get you to 99% of us climbing areas!
-e
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2011 - 06:48am PT
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And just EXACTLY where did you find an approach to EP that uses a VEHICLE??
Rokjox -alert as usual. I dug out my logbook ready to prove you wrong. But it was the approach to Finger of Fate, not EP. I haven't spent much time in Idaho, but if that approach is representative a 2wd just won't cut it there. I actually felt like I was abusing my poor Blazer...
BTW, I just added EP to the list of places I can still access if I can't get a 4x4.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Many. I would love to tell you but then I would have to kill you.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Just one of the areas a 4x4 comes in handy.
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2011 - 05:36am PT
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Tough lookin' rig, Batrock.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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No bugs allowed:
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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Whatta canyon!
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gonzo chemist
climber
from CO Springs at the moment...
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Turkey Rocks, in the South Platte? Or maybe just anything high clearance would work there.
what about Big Rock Candy Mountain? also in the south platte.
I guess individually those don't count as areas, so much as just "formations."
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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You'll want HC/4X4/Locking Rear Diff if you wanna get into a lot of the really good obscuro routes in SoCal and Utah and greater Flagstaff. Last 2WD car I owned was in 1993, and I'm never going back. When I was living in Southern Utah and Northern Arizona I slipped into 4X4 very often.
Rockjox is right -- stay in 2X4 until you are into, or about to get into, a recovery situation. Like trying to get out of the Henries after a rainstorm. Even then there are no guarentees. When Bentonite clay gets lit up with snow or rain you're pretty much hosed.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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As others have said, the issues are greater than just 2wd, 4wd and AWD, there is ground clearance and tires to contend with, and most importantly if you're staying on the pavement, or leaving the pavement.
If you don't go off pavement, then 2wd with all season tires, supplimented with chains and realizing you'll have to stay off the roads in some winter conditions will suffice.
If however you venture off pavement, higher ground clearance and all terrain tires are a wise choice, adding a locker in the diff is even a better choice, 4wd is the best. Even though you you may have rarely used the 4wd in your blazer, you had a much more capable off road vehicle than an AWD sedan or wagon due to the ground clearance and likely the tires you had on the blazer.
The fuel efficiency difference between 2wd and 4wd, or 2wd and AWD really isn't that great for the same type of vehicles with the different drive trains, figure 2mpg tops. But, when comparing a truck type vehicle to a sedan, then yes the larger heavier truck with it's larger heavier engine and drive train is going to have dramatically worse mileage than a sedan, or sedan based suv/wagon.
Personally I can't see living in an area where you spend a signifigant amount of the year in winter driving conditions and not having AWD or 4wd. I've done so for a few years, you do what you have to do.
You can head out a nice dry dusty dirt road to a climbing in your sedan, and have a thunderstorm arrive before your departure. What got you out there, might not get you back.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I'm with dee ee.
But I will say that it is 49% vehicle and 51% driver.
I've seen Mondeau take 2WD where new Jeep owners foundered.
Used to be only one way in here, and it was burly.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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stay in 2X4 until you are into, or about to get into, a recovery situation.
Crawl in 4x4 to avoid getting into or near a recovery situation. Getting
into 4x4 isn't always instantaneous. Sometimes it takes a second or two of driving for it to engage (at least for a 4x4 tacoma), and sometimes requires
going back to neutral and retrying the engagement. Don't think I want to try that on top of being near a recovery situation.
But yeah most peeps don't need it where they go. But for those of us who do it isn't really an option unless we really want to curtail some of our locations.
EDIT:
Plus we all know I won't agree with RJ ;)
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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There's a great old photo of Fowler at the base of Monster Tower on the White Rim Trail. Looks like they drove a beater ol Chevy Malibu or some such out there. Assuming the oilpan was still intact, dude had skillz.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Getting to a rock climbing area is not the only reason to get a 4x4 . I love checking out old mining roads , forest service roads , mountain passes, in my old Toyota. Add a locking diff in the rear and you can do even more . I also sleep in the back with the g/f about 30 nights a year . I get about 20 mpg . I do wish that was better....
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Dapper Dan, what year is your Truck? My Toyota looks to be the same year (93) as yours, unfortunately the timing chain went kapoot and took out the engine. Loved that truck and would have never been able to do all the things I did without it.
Truly got my use of the 4X4.
Now that I have a 2-wheel drive that has zilch clearance can no longer camp in the areas I was able to access in my truck. Bah!!!!!!!!
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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bummer about the timing belt , I have a 93' . How many miles on your truck when the T Belt went out ?
I currently have 230,000 , I'm trying to get one more summer out of it , before an upgrade to an 04' Tacoma .
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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The 4 bangers use a timing chain, the V-6 uses a timing belt.
Loved my 93 toy truck, but it burned a valve at 140k, and the rebuilt healds did a repeat within 2k miles :( Very capable trucks, and pretty tough to get them stuck.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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I find I use the 4 wheel all the time now that I have it.
You can get a lot of places in a 2wd, but you can also get stuck a lot of places. When you are dealing with snow, I found that I often had to chain up to park even though the roads were workable.
When it comes to AWD, like a Subaru, I found that it doesn't take very a big rock to eat up the clearance.
The place Batrock shows was my standard for purchasing a new vehicle. There's a good size rock there on the road that pretty much eliminates a Subaru and I wasn't brave enough to take my 2wd pick up down the steep stretch that follows.
I bought a 97 4 Runner. It's a four banger so the mileage is pretty good, it has an awesome turn radius for the rough roads, it's great in snow, and the clearance is great for a truck that works with the kid (and soon to be kids.)
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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For me the big question is snow. If you live in a snowy state or ski alot, then 4WD or AWD is very nice to have.
Absent the frozen white stuff, 2WD and skills will get one to many places.
For example, this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYIJpzo2RVY
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Awesome Dingus , not much left of Aurora these days , it was allowed to be pilfered with no government protection , unlike Bodie which was made a state park in 1962 ...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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This is a pretty funny thread. Lots of people saying there's no need for 4WD... probably because they've never gone anywhere that required it.
Yes, a good driver in a 2WD will get to places a bad driver can't reach in a 4WD, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of places you're not going to reach without all four wheels driving.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Yes on the 4WD. This is Toyota 4-Runner car-camping in a mountain area in Idaho at about 9,000 Ft.
Only higher-clearance 4WDs could make it to this car-camping spot on an old mining road. Highest nearby peaks are 10,200 ft.
I've owned a fair number of Toyota 4-Runners. My 1986 one had 186,000 miles of no-problem miles on it-------- when I panicked and sold it-----for damn near nothing.
I now trade them around 70,000-80,000 miles, and do pretty well.
I never have had a 4-Runner die on me on the road.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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You all are going to laugh, but I have gotten my awd 2000 cr-v into some truly heinous places. Drive well, carry speed, and ignore those unpleasant rock bangings. Going on 200k + and still going strong. Independent soft suspension can't be beat on those wash boarded roads. The transmission has been its only limitation. Brought it into fordyce lake a few weeks ago to much surprise. Big 4 wheel drive solid axle vehicles really suck on most marginal roads , unless you like your fillings getting knocked out that is. Oh and it is a dream going up highway 50 when it is whiteout.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I wanna go out and buy a four-wheeler. I am so sick of saving gas money in my beater Escort.
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2011 - 06:17am PT
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The transmission has been its only limitation Agreed -doesn't have a low gear so you have to drag the brakes to keep your speed down...can't crawl like my (late) Blazer (in 4L). Also the fuel tank hangs low which limits clearance. Otherwise great car and superior on the highway.
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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Lots of people saying there's no need for 4WD
Maybe we're in denial - I know I am. But I also know I spend a lot more time on-road than I do off-road. Its a difficult thing...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
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Do you climb on the white rim?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Sep 22, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
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Okay, I know this is an old thread and this post is OT. Back when I was in my late teens working on an offshore rig I bought a 74 Landcruiser. That sucker could go anywhere I pointed it. I remember one time with some friends driving it on Arkansas timber trails. We came upon a pool of water in the road. I thought no big deal and proceeded to drive into it. Next thing I knew we were in 4' of water and had water coming over the hood and in the doors. Nothing to do but gun it and hope for the best. Good times.
Later I was with a friend jeeping in CO at 12k in winter with lots of snow. That sucker was solid.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 22, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
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Only if you're paid, Locker.....
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Sep 22, 2016 - 05:01pm PT
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old Land Cruisers kick ass. new Land Cruisers kick ass. Land Cruisers kick ass.
as stated previously, good all-wheel-drive with good ground clearance (read: Subaru) is good for 98% of stuff I'd be interested in climbing.
but to go deep into the Buttermilks (e.g. the approach to Humphreys) or to go ice climbing in the Ghost Valley, say, there simply is no beating 4wd with locking differential, good tires, and better-than-Subaru ground clearance (i.e. at least 9 inches off the ground)
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 22, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
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What is the best gas mileage you get for 9" ground clearance and 4WD with locking differential?
I've about maxed out the possibilities in a Prius (Shuteye, deep into Jackass Meadows through the river and a few unreasonably high dirt ridges), all over Eastern Sierra, Escalante - Hole in the Rock Road through the deep sand bogs and to end of the side-road for Peak-A-Boo and Spooky Canyon that has signs for high clearance 4WD, Wild Rose Canyon exit from Death Valley out to Trona via roads washed out by rivers and covered with large polished stones). Black Velvet Canyon at RR is no problem... but I was a bit too casual last time I was there and bend a metal frame support to the point that it rattled on the muffler. Just got it straightened out yesterday after several months and many thousand miles of driving with a silicone hot mitt to act as a padding to stop the rattling (thanks Ritwik for coming up with that solution).
But I am MIGHTY envious of high clearance 4WD rigs. Plenty of places I'd like to go that I can't. It's a conundrum because every time I'd do a big adventure, it would include about 1000 miles of asphalt driving on roads like Interstate 5. So gas mileage and highway performance matters a lot to me.
I've been thinking a Dodge Ram Promaster was the compromise to get decent mileage, front-wheel (2WD) drive for snow and sand handling, and lots of space for gear and adult-sized kids on extended adventures.
But now I'm thinking of less camper-van space and more badass access to remote spots. With good gas mileage.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Sep 22, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
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"What is the best gas mileage you get for 9" ground clearance and 4WD with locking differential?"
Also add: a stock full size spare.
a good comparison on mpg would be the different versions of Jeep models. Only the trailhawk has the locker. No Subaru compares for offroading.
Even the "limited slip" on a Subaru allows a lot of slip, since it's meant for snow & gravel, not for crawling.
Outback & Forester 4 cyl with CVT rated 28mpg combined.
Cherokee
FWD 25 combined
4WD 23 combined
Trailhawk 22mpg combined, 9 speed, with the 4 cyl, 21mpg for the 6 cyl.
Renegade Trailhawk 24mpg combined with 2.4 liter
Grand Cherokee Trailhawk 2017 21 mpg is for regular 4WD, not for the Trailhawk, however they decline to rate the Trailhawk separately. four-corner Quadra-Lift air suspension, 10.8 inches of ground clearance, Quadra-Drive II 4WD, rear electronic limited-slip diff, 265/60R18 tires.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 22, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
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Pacfico Rocks in the Angeles Ntl Forest used to be FWD access but I think they pegged the trails some time ago.
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 22, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
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Pssst Spider, FWD is the acronym for Front Wheel Drive. 4WD and FWD are not the same. lol
I get 22MPG with a 97 4Runner. No locking diff yet but it's gonna get an ARB airlocker as soon as I can save the cash. It goes anywhere as is but lockers are just fun to have.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Redwood City
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Sep 22, 2016 - 09:07pm PT
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Front and rear ARB's , what a great investment ....
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 22, 2016 - 09:19pm PT
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Dapper
Is that your rig?
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Redwood City
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Sep 22, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
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Yes , a 90' 4Runner with a Dana 60 rear and Dana 44 solid front axle. A bunch of other mods that I won't bore you with , but the ARB's get used on nearly every 4x4 trip I do ...
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 22, 2016 - 10:06pm PT
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Nice man. I noticed the SAS you added to the left of SR5. Dana's are a beast. I just picked up my 97. So far it's only gotten a 3" toytec/eibach lift. Plans are in the works for a rear ARB, front bumper, sliders, and skids. It's also a DD for the wife. Luckily she didn't even notice when I pulled the factory running boards off.
And bore away with the mods man. I actually need to extend the diff breather in mine fairly soon. I'd love to put a Marlin Crawler tacobox on it but that's gonna be a long way off. I need to get another vehicle for the wife first. lol
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Sep 22, 2016 - 11:07pm PT
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TBC- If that was closer that crack would be my mistress. I don't think I could climb it, but I know I could sit under it and have a good think...
Oh yeah, 4WD...
Tons of places require 4WD. That gets your approach down to about 9 miles for example.
And another thing, I won't tow your Camry, Prius, or other inappropriate vehicle out of the ditch. (Winter, ice climbing areas in particular)
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
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Sep 22, 2016 - 11:09pm PT
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old El cap road
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Sep 22, 2016 - 11:59pm PT
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North East Side of the Bighorns.
I guess you could walk for 20+ miles...In addition to the 9 miles from the wilderness boundary.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Sep 23, 2016 - 02:58am PT
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Nut again, the current model Toyota 4Runner gets 22 or so on the highway, 17 in the city, and will be waaaay more reliable than a jeep.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2016 - 05:42am PT
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Yes randis, you hall monitor, in theory you can get anywhere on the planet w/o 4 wd. But in real world practice there are are a lot of them that just won't happen unless you have unlimited time and energy.
Thus 4 wd.
Would you walk or bike to Century crack, with the rack it requires? Twenty #5's alone ( I may be rounding up). Would be a full pack...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 23, 2016 - 08:08am PT
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4wd is mostly a man-toy. It's so unnecessary for climbing.
I've traveled the most remote 4wd roads anywhere via other means. I've found them to be full of fat people. A few grand for a vehicle and a tank of gas turns out to not be much of a barrier for a man to live out his boyhood fantasies of far-flung adventure to the edge of the unknown.
If you are looking for solitude, a pair of shoes and a small pack is best.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 23, 2016 - 08:30am PT
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Cars should not even be made without AWD. Everytime I have to drive a 2wd rig in the winter it sucks.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Redwood City
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Sep 23, 2016 - 08:34am PT
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Excellent and timely Seinfeld referance DMT !
Ruppel here's the specs on my 'Runner...
rebuilt 22re with 40k miles
Dana 44 front and Dana 60 rear
5.29 gears with f+r ARB's
Goodyear MT/R's 37x12.5x17 tires
Dual cases with Marlin 4.7 rear case and Toyota 2.2 case
Twin stick on rear case
Trail gear sliders and tube bumpers
Warn 9500 winch
Here's my youtube channel , I got a bunch of off-road videos on there...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi8ppDZiz45KNtned7w1jgQ
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Sep 23, 2016 - 09:29am PT
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It's so unnecessary for climbing.
Seems to be common thinking, judging on the number of stuck in the ditch cars I see every year.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 23, 2016 - 10:05am PT
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Yeah, a Prius would have been great here.
That was the easy part.
Nah, didn't need 4x4 here either.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 23, 2016 - 10:34am PT
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Yeah, a Prius would have been great here. The discussion is about what climbing is at the end of such a road, not that these roads exist and what you need to run them.
If you want to discuss 4x4 roads, the pix thus far are weak and incapable rigs, really, if you want to discuss 4x4 roads. You might run a Moab 5 or 6 rated road out of 10, at best, and then only with a willingness to accept significant damage.
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kief
Trad climber
east side
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Sep 23, 2016 - 10:38am PT
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Reilly — Saline Valley?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 23, 2016 - 11:10am PT
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There were several times this summer when we were 50 miles from pavement. Once it rained on us in UT and the dust turned to grease. barely made it back to pavement. AWD was only really put to the test a half dozen times or so but it was peace of mind every time we went deep.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 23, 2016 - 11:52am PT
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Kief, the first pic was Cottonwood Cyn, which was pretty rough and those
side canyons DO have climbing on pure Carrara marble in at least one of them.
The second pic is Wingate Pass. Not a lot of climbing around there.
Burch, I admit I'm not manly enough for a rag top Jeep - it messes with
my coiffure. In addition I would never own one because when I park it
to go climbing I want my margarita blender and microwave to be relatively
secure.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Redwood City
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Sep 23, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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Burch , what trail is that?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 23, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
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Reilly,
Those pics show why you need clearance. But it's not clear to me that 4WD is required there.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Sep 23, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
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4wd is not required, if it snows. But you will need chains. Enjoy.
I carry chains and put them on once every two or three years. A mild nuisance but pretty cheap compared to the extra expense of 4WD when you take original cost, gas mileage, and maintenance into account.
I've spent a lot more time wishing for another inch of clearance than I ever have wishing for 4WD.
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Sep 23, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
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Those pics show why you need clearance. But it's not clear to me that 4WD is required there.
When you drive over imbedded rocks like that in 2wd you have to carry momentum over some of the rocks to avoid getting stuck. This increases your chances of mechanical issues, tears up your tires and prohibits a semblance of control. In 4wd you can typically "crawl" over the rocks in a controlled fashion.
This anti 4wd sentiment is weird. Yes you can walk (or bike) from your house to anywhere. Yes you can get 99% of the places you want to go in 2wd, but you can do it so much more efficiently with 4wd. I'd rather spend my time at my destination than dicking around with an inferior rig.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2016 - 04:19pm PT
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Did DMT just call me NEWMAN? 😎
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Sep 23, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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"This anti 4wd sentiment is weird."
What's weird is driving a vehicle that gets half the fuel economy ALL the time when you only need 4WD 1% of the time (for most people with only one vehicle).
Ever heard of global warming?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 23, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
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I have a Prius, a Suby, and a F250 Super Duty Turbodiesel 4WD. I win.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
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What sort of mileage do you get in the f250 diesel?
Better than, or comparable to a lifted Tacoma / 4Runner, I'm guessing?
There clearly are climbing areas that require 4wd, the white rim is just one of them. And yes there are environmental problems with driving 4wds. All of these things are taken into the equation. When I bought a 4Runner I lamented to a fiend, about the looming, increased, gas bill . He said " so? It'll be your adventure mobile, while in daily life you'll be a bike commuter."
I pretty much do this, and I live less than a quarter mile from work.
On the other hand, you should see where Nut Again! Has gotten his Prius!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 23, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
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The dirt roads in southwest Wyoming often devolve to parallel track with ruts that assume you have a monster truck. Seems like everyone there does. I considered myself lucky to get to this spot, somewhere northeast of Kemerrer outside of Fossil Butte.
Places like this (somewhere east of Benton?) are easy as heck to find for free bivies near good obscure climbing, and don't need 4wd at all:
This place I chickened out at about 1:30am when I encountered a 9" vertical step in the rock. That night I had already been buried up to the axles (front and back) in a deep sand bog, spent 20 minutes on my belly with a shovel digging out when I got lucky and a couple of lads come by with a Wrangler. I had choked within the first 30 feet of very deep sand, and when I had the choice for the jeep guys to tow me back out or forward, I doubled down and had them yank me through on some of my 1" nylon tubular webbing. After that the road was better, but I hit a spot calling for high clearance 4WD and still pressed on, fairly extreme sideways tilt straddling gullies and leveraging momentum and careful steering sequence to keep wheels on the crests between gullies while dodging rocks and going diagonal over berms to avoid high-centering. But I camped at this spot, and next morning I saw some family SUVs cruising along like no big deal, and past where I chickened out, and then final insult was a 2WD sedan with a couple of young guys pulling it off. Of course I had to proceed at that point.
Putting on chains is not a big deal when you get used to it. It's a job that can be done in flip-flops. I did it a bunch last winter for Badger Pass skiing. Worst time was trying to do it on an incline after Wawona Tunnel. Now I'll be more careful to scout out flat spots. I think this was in C4 parking lot:
I recall getting to Benton Crags was a bit sketchy because the sage was about 2 feet tall in between the parallel track, and the burning sage smell was pretty thick as I plowed through it. The actual correct path wasn't that bad but I made a wrong turn-off into a dead-end canyon and that got pretty dicey. Must have been a good cleaning scrub for the undercarriage. No pics.
Batrock's camp spot in Saline Valley was questionable for the Prius in the best of conditions. Any rain and I'd be utterly screwed. He's taken me another place that would require a huge walk-in that I would never consider in my Prius.
I got pretty sketched out looking for dispersed camping outside Sequoia/Kings Canyon. The dirt roads off of Hwy 168 get pretty serious. I had kids sleeping and bouncing around the back for an hour before getting turned back at barbed wire fences across the road.
One time I left Pasadena (near Los Angeles) at about 2am, drove to SF Bay to pcik up kids and load camping gear, then south around the horn and back up to Lone Pine, to meet Mungeclimber and gang at Alabama Hills. It was my first time there, out on the dirt roads at about 7pm by moonlight, and I turned around in the wrong spot. First time I buried sand up to both axles. I didn't have a shuttle, but did have two hungry and tired kids. So I thought I did a good job keeping the mood light, telling them to check out the pretty moon while I was on my belly pulling out armfulls of sand and using some sticks to dig a bit. Only took an hour before I met up with the gang and all was well.
Another time, the river crossing at Jackass Meadow was almost my undoing. 60 miles out dirt roads with two little kids and no room for error driving through 12-18" of water with potholes to dodge and a steep muddy embankment that required full momentum while precisely weaving through a couple of potholes. That was the moment that made me more cautious in what I'm willing to attempt.
Main thing that makes me want the 4WD is winter access to eastern sierra, driving up closer to snowline for backcountry adventures. And getting to some really out-there family camping spots.
All that said, I work from home but still have almost 170,000 miles on a car from 2009. That would be about 8,500 gallons of EXTRA gas if I had a 20mpg 4WD vehicle, roughly $30,000 of higher gasoline cost for the benefit of maybe 20-30 days where I would have really used it. I guess I should be OK paying a few hundred bucks per day to rent a 4WD when I want it?
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 23, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
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Nut
You can own both. lol I have a 4Runner for driving around town and for when I want to go off-road. I have a 2003 Jetta TDI that get's 48MPG for when I want the gas savings. Win/Win.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Sep 23, 2016 - 07:37pm PT
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Absolutely nothing about the driveline, various filters and case vents, bearings, seals, etc in a low clearance passenger car are designed for off road. Very few trucks and SUVs are either. Eventually, it's only a matter of time, everyone will learn this through repair bills, though you may not immediately connect the two. A real 4x4 hobby is way more expensive than just the extra gas. Personally, I can't stand the perma-dust.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 23, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
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I like Dingus's logic. Tried to go deep when possible and always have the rig pointed out and the camp chairs, table and stove stowed away before we crash so we can bail in a hurry if we have to without getting out of the vehicle or haveing to turn arround etc...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 23, 2016 - 07:55pm PT
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been deep in honda civics and rental sedans. Much less stress w 4x4.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 23, 2016 - 07:59pm PT
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JLP. i live 4 1/2 miles down a dirt road that has a very real mud season and washboards and pot holes the rest of the year. I figuer I pay an extra grand or so a year in vehicle wear and tear from 9 miles of dirt road every day...
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Sep 23, 2016 - 11:28pm PT
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Which climbing areas require a pedal pub?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 24, 2016 - 12:51am PT
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My F250 diesel gets up to 19 mpg if all freeway at 65 mph. Usually I get around 17 mostly highway. With a 9.5' truck camper or towing I get around 13-14.
The suby gets around 24.
Both of them have lots of miles but run great.
The Prius gets around 44. It's our go to car for most driving.
We probably paid less for all 3 vehicles than most people pay for a new SUV.
I had a 4Runner or Toyota pickup for years, really hard to beat if you need one vehicle to do everything.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 24, 2016 - 12:56am PT
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Tradman you need a kubota with a box scraper. I finally got one and did my driveway. It's so satisfying and nice to drive down now.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 24, 2016 - 04:17am PT
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our private road is only 1/4 mile of the trip. My neighbor has use of a tractor and York rake so we keep it in decent shape. The 4+ miles of town dirt roads get graded etc by the town half a dozen times a year but its wet in the east so they pot hole up pretty quick. then there is mud season...
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