Why are Republicans Wrong about Everything?

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Messages 40301 - 40320 of total 45480 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Mar 7, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
Norton,, come on now, you speak only for yourself. I respect JE.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Mar 7, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
well JohnE, you are just a stunningly ignorant and highly partisan hack

how you could conclude what you said above is devoid of all logic and common sense

keep it up John, you used to have some respect and credibility here, not any more

We are all a bunch of misfits here.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 7, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
You could learn sh#t-tons from him, too, Ron, if you could just stop talking and start listening.
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Mar 7, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
Tvash

climber
Seattle

Mar 7, 2014 - 02:21pm PT
Those are all opinion pieces by pundits, Sketch.

Looking for journalism or original studies, reports here. Objectivity and all that.

Sorry, but so far, you get a failing grade.

Take it up with Jammer.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
Ex-CIA Pilot Gives Sworn Testimony That No Planes Hit The Twin Towers

April Fools!!!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 7, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
But with prime evidence from Philo above, youll notice they excuse the current by pointing to the past.

As opposed to excusing the past by pointing to the current?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 8, 2014 - 01:26am PT
Oh come one, Norton. You don't need to hold back. Tell me what you really think. I can take it!

John
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 8, 2014 - 05:36am PT
Who are the real gay marriage bigots?
A nasty intolerant streak runs through the argument of some gay rights supporters
By Damon Linker | March 7, 2014 Published March 7, 2014, at 6:05 AM

Allow me, dear reader, to walk you through a little internet contretemps that gives us a glimpse of the depths to which the battle for gay rights is rapidly sinking.

Last weekend, Ross Douthat of The New York Times wrote a column reflecting on what its headline described as "the terms of our surrender" with "our" referring to those (including Douthat himself) who continue to believe for religious reasons that marriage should apply only to heterosexual couples. Note: Douthat was conceding defeat in the fight against gay marriage, and merely discussing how the losers should be treated by the victors, including the expression of a meager hope that his side not be uniformly consigned to the category of bigots.

For Mark Joseph Stern, this was an unacceptable outrage. Writing in Slate, Stern denounced Douthat for daring to suggest that opponents of gay marriage deserve anything but contempt for their hateful views, which must be understood as expressions of "raw hatred" and "base bigotry."

This, in turn, inspired The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf to mount a defense of Douthat's position. Stern's article "is implicitly trafficking in its own sort of prejudice," Friedersdorf wrote, because it assumes that "homophobia, anti-gay bigotry, and hatred are obviously what's motivating anyone who declines to provide a service for a gay wedding," when in fact, plenty of gay marriage opponents merely reject it because they regard "marriage as a religious sacrament with a procreative purpose." And that is fundamentally different from bigotry.

And finally (for now!), Friedersdorf's post provoked a sharp response by Henry Farrell at Crooked Timber, a political theory blog. Like Stern, Farrell believes that those who oppose gay marriage are obviously displaying bigotry and that Friedersdorf's position amounts to saying, absurdly, that the true bigots are those who denounce that bigotry.

As I've made clear repeatedly in my writing, I support gay marriage and am cheered that advocates for it have made such stunning legal and cultural gains so quickly. I consider these gains to be broadly harmonious with recent legal precedents and cultural trends, as well as the deeper political implications of liberal democratic government and theological implications of Christian egalitarianism.

But I'm also troubled by the equally stunning lack of charity, magnanimity, and tolerance displayed by many gay marriage advocates. This very much includes Mark Joseph Stern, Henry Farrell, and others who are cheering them on.

Roughly speaking, for all of recorded human history until a couple of decades ago, virtually no one even entertained the possibility that homosexuals might seek to marry, let alone advocated it. In that brief span of time a figurative blink of an eye in cultural terms gay marriage has gone from being an oxymoron to a lived reality in several states and an institution accepted by majorities or pluralities in most demographic categories. If that isn't a cultural revolution, then nothing is.

Yes, it's still underway. But at this rate, Nate Silver's 2009 prediction that gay marriage would be accepted in all 50 states by 2024 is going to prove to be too pessimistic.

And yet, that appears to be insufficient for some gay marriage proponents. They don't just want to win the legal right to marry. They don't just want most Americans to recognize and affirm the equal dignity of their relationships. They appear to want and expect all Americans to recognize and affirm that equal dignity, under penalty of ostracism from civilized life.

That is an unacceptable, illiberal demand.

As I've argued before, liberal democracy is a political theory designed to allow people who disagree about the highest human goods to live together in peace and civility despite their differences. Like it or not and a certain militant class of gay marriage proponents clearly do not like it at all traditionalist religious believers are our fellow citizens and neighbors, and the United States is as much their country as it is ours.

That's why the premier liberal virtue is toleration and not recognition. Toleration is perfectly compatible with indeed, it presupposes a lack of unanimity, or even majority consensus, about ultimate goods. It leaves the diversity of views about ultimate goods intact, forcing consensus on as few issues as possible, so that people belonging to specific regions, classes, ethnicities, and sociocultural and religious groups can build rich, meaningful lives together in freedom.

Recognition, by contrast, requires much more from one's fellow citizens because the end it seeks is far more demanding. Instead of aiming to "live and let live," as toleration does, recognition strives for psychological acceptance and positive affirmation of one's vision of the good from all of one's fellow citizens, including from those whose vision of the good clashes with it. That makes it a zero-sum game.

Don't believe me? Check out the remarkable (and moving) clip that Farrell embeds in his post, showing public remarks by an Irish drag queen named Panti who makes it very clear that he believes both that homophobia is omnipresent (including in himself), and that this informal, extralegal, often purely psychological form of "oppression" simply must be eradicated.

That's recognition's goal: to stamp out rival visions of the good when they stand in the way of unconditional acceptance.

And that brings me to the sloppy way the most strident gay-marriage proponents have been throwing around the term "bigotry." A bigot is someone closed-minded in some respects someone who evaluates or judges certain groups of people on the basis of prejudice, or pre-judgment, about them, who does not greet all people and ways of life with complete and unbiased openness. Someone, in other words, who does not grant automatic recognition and unconditional affirmation to everyone.

I submit that, measured by this standard, virtually everyone involved in the gay marriage battle is a bigot. Someone who considers homosexuality an abomination that should be a criminal offense is certainly expressing bigotry. But so is a traditionalist religious believer who professes to hold no animus toward homosexuals and yet opposes gay marriage because she conceives of marriage (in Friedersdorf's words) as "a religious sacrament with a procreative purpose."

And so, also, is a gay marriage supporter who can see no relevant moral distinction between these two positions and is willing and eager to hurl insults as a means of bullying them both into submission.

Bigotry is endemic to social life, and it will be until there cease to be serious differences among conflicting goods and ways of living.

Which is, once again, why liberal toleration is such a crucially important ideal. Now as much as ever.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Mar 8, 2014 - 08:44am PT
Which is, once again, why

Oh shut the f*#k up.

DMT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 8, 2014 - 08:49am PT
bookworm posted
Who are the real gay marriage bigots?
bookworm posted
Who are the real racists?
bookworm posted
Who are the real misogynists?

Notice a pattern? Here's a tip: If your political allies are constantly saying bigoted things, proposing bigoted legislation and espousing bigoted political strategies and your response isn't denouncing and condemning them...you might be a bigot. This "you guys are the real bigots" strategy only helps you defend your own egos against the reality of your political positions. It does literally nothing to convince anyone of your position because your actions are so clear.

You can't work this hard to disenfranchise various classes of people from the electoral process/economy/society and then also imagine that those people are going to buy these excuses.

The people opposing gay marriage are the gay marriage bigots. It's pretty much that simple. Stop being a douche. "Religious freedom" means that you can live your religious ethos, not that you can project it onto others.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 8, 2014 - 09:39am PT
CPAC update:

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/03/paul-ryans-heartwrenching-story-about-hungry-kid-also-appears-heartwrenching-book/358902/

Paul Ryan told a story about a kid who refused his free school lunch because he thought bringing a lunch in a brown paper bag meant that "somebody cared about him." Turns out the story was stolen and reappropriated (shocker!). Secondly, holy poor shaming (if you have to make your kid get free lunch at school it means they think you don't care about them!). Thirdly, if your food stamps get cut you don't have any food to put in that brown paper bag, do you Mr. Ryan?

But in reality it's the liberals who are biased against the poor because
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Mar 8, 2014 - 09:51am PT
On a positive note we can now start calling Lyin Ryan - Plagerizing Paul.

Oh was that impolite of me? Shucky darn I do hate to hurt the feelings of "Compassionate Conservatives".
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 8, 2014 - 09:58am PT
Of course we liberals are bigots for not protecting the bigots and allowing them their bigot laws. Makes sense to me.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2014 - 10:08am PT
My religion says I must spit on Conservatives and right wing faux Christians

Too bad I can't express my religious freedoms because of all the stupid liberal oppression, If only we the Arizona freedom to be bigot law here in California
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2014 - 10:10am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Here, have a fish.
Here, have a fish.
Credit: BG
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2014 - 10:17am PT
For JE
Credit: Dr. F.
Credit: Dr. F.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 8, 2014 - 10:28am PT
It's true, Obama's policy of "not doing everything we tell him to" has been a horrible failure for Republicans.
WBraun

climber
Mar 8, 2014 - 10:34am PT
Tell us something we don't already know.

You lazy cows surfing the news media and then regurgitating it here.

Think big and bold, broad and far.

Not always like your narrow dried up trickle of drool .....
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Mar 8, 2014 - 10:38am PT
How's the weather up there today WB?
WBraun

climber
Mar 8, 2014 - 10:39am PT
Typhoon rock climbing is coming coming on ........ :-)

I scoped out a new route!!!

I'M gonna call it "Warbler isn't here"

Hoooorrrahhhh ......
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