Why are Republicans Wrong about Everything?

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JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
The ACA will become a single payer program - like most of the rest of the civilized world.

Most of us on the right came to that conclusion when the law was passed, though probably for different reasons from yours. We saw the Affordable [sic] Care Act as giving us the worst of all worlds, because it maintained our disconnect between price signals and treatment, just like our current system, but also did much to impose one-size-fits-all treatment, as single-payer systems do.

The other question Ron is asking, about modifying a law, is a Constitutional question that, thus far, the Administration's apologists have ignored. May the Administration unilaterally modify a law in contravention of its explicit terms? If so, please explain how doing so is consistent with the Constitution, giving the POTUS veto power, but not a line-item veto or the power to legislate.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
I'm sure someone with more constitutional law background can answer that latter question, but our former POTUS sure stretched those powers, didn't he?

Anyway...I find it interesting that you believe 'most of those on the Right' concluded that the ACA was going to be a poorly structured step to a Single Payer system...I sure don't remember any of you making such observations. It was pretty much 'No action is the best action', as I remember it.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
John...instead of making a back-handed swipe please just state if Obama broke the law. :-)

Yes or No??

Funny to hear the right talk about any healthcare reform...they had none.

Again, Yes or No?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
Bob,

Of course the delays in implementation of the ACA broke the law. I'm unaware of any decision that allows the executive branch to modify an effective date set either by legislation or by court decision. I suspect the only reason we don't already have a court decision saying so is that his delays in the effective date, which are tacit admissions of the ACA's problems, have few if any natural enemies that would have standing to sue in federal court.

And Apogee, to what "stretches" are you referring? My right-wing memory can't seem to recall an instance in which Bush explicitly defied statutory language. In any case, at least since I was in elementary school, "he did it, too" was never a defense.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
Just one of the many times Obama attempted to circumvent laws, like when he said in an interview that he "might" go ahead into Syria even without Congressional approval and or actions. That plan was thoroughly kerPUTTINED.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
John, I say Ron and you are wrong...prove it...I say you are wrong.

"In fact, applicable judicial precedent places such timing adjustments well within the Executive Branch's lawful discretion. To be sure, the federal Administrative Procedure Act authorizes federal courts to compel agencies to initiate statutorily required actions that have been "unreasonably delayed." But courts have found delays to be unreasonable only in rare cases where, unlike this one, inaction had lasted for several years, and the recalcitrant agency could offer neither a persuasive excuse nor a credible end to its dithering. In deciding whether a given agency delay is reasonable, current law tells courts to consider whether expedited action could adversely affect "higher or competing" agency priorities, and whether other interests could be "prejudiced by the delay." Even in cases where an agency outright refuses to enforce a policy in specified types of cases -- not the case here -- the Supreme Court has declined to intervene. As held by former Chief Justice William Rehnquist in a leading case on this subject, Heckler v. Chaney, courts must respect an agency's presumptively superior grasp of "the many variables involved in the proper ordering of its priorities." Chief Justice Rehnquist suggested that courts could lose their deference to Executive Branch judgment if an "agency has consciously and expressly adopted a general policy that is so extreme as to amount to an abdication of its statutory responsibilities." The Obama Administration has not and is not about to abdicate its responsibility to implement the statute on whose success his historical legacy will most centrally depend."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
Of course the delays in implementation of the ACA broke the law.


prove it

cite the exact "law" and section language

and then explain how your Repubs did NOT break that same law when they bungled and delayed the implementation of Medicare Part D

and how that relates to every single other Federal legislation throughout history that did not proceed exactly according to a "timetable"

prosecutions? etc
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
Ron, in foreign policy, including limited troop commitment, the POTUS has extensive authority. If he chose to send troops to Syria, there are many ways he could have done so without Congressional approval. What he could not do was send troops there if Congress explicitly told him not to do so.

Incidentally, an example of a Republican excess of executive power would be the Iran-Contra affair, where Congress explicitly forbade aid to the Contras, but the Reagan administration did so anyway. I don't think either Bush administration did any such thing.

John
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
Ron gets slapped down by JohnL.

What happened to Reagan for breaking the law? Nothing.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
The acceptable borders of presidential powers seem to vary according to which Party is in power at the time, and one's own ideology, doesn't it?

The Bush Administration (note: not 'Shrub') was historic in it's open interpretation post-9/11. Do we really need to revisit this? OK...here a quick blurb:

“If we know this much about torture, rendition, secret prisons and warrantless wiretapping despite the administration’s attempts to stonewall, then imagine what we don’t know,” says a senior Democratic congressional aide who is familiar with the proposal and has been involved in several high-profile congressional investigations.

“You have to go back to the McCarthy era to find this level of abuse,” says Barry Steinhardt, the director of the Program on Technology and Liberty for the American Civil Liberties Union. “Because the Bush administration has been so opaque, we don’t know [the extent of] what laws have been violated.”
http://www.salon.com/2008/07/23/new_churchcomm/
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
JE, granted, but he also knew what the public and Congress was thinking on that very item. Hence his comment towards Congress..
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 7, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Ron/JohnE...what laws have Obama broken. Easy question.
Sketch

Trad climber
H-ville
Mar 7, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Section 1513 of the Affordable Care Act requires all large employers to provide health insurance for their employees. “Large employers” are those with at least 50 full-time employees, and “full-time” is defined as averaging 30 or more hours per week.
Section 1513’s “Employer Mandate” is one of five parts of the ACA that are absolutely essential for this government-run system to work, with the most well-known of those five being the infamous “Individual Mandate” upheld by the Supreme Court as a tax by a controversial 5-4 decision in 2012.
And the Employer Mandate is mandatory. The law Congress wrote explicitly commands that this provision takes effect in January 2014. The ACA does not permit the government to grant a reprieve or an extension.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 7, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
^^^Source?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 7, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
Still waiting.

Again...""In fact, applicable judicial precedent places such timing adjustments well within the Executive Branch's lawful discretion. To be sure, the federal Administrative Procedure Act authorizes federal courts to compel agencies to initiate statutorily required actions that have been "unreasonably delayed." But courts have found delays to be unreasonable only in rare cases where, unlike this one."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 7, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
Not holding your breath, are you? That could be dangerous.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 7, 2014 - 02:10pm PT
To me this become a issue of holding this president legal actions way above those of the past.

Racism comes to mind. Really sad when you think about it.
jammer

climber
Mar 7, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
If it's worth anything to the debate Bob and Ron are having, I know a poly sci professor very well and it is his well researched and objective non-partisan as possible judgement that the ACA was passed into law by the legal route through which republicans, particularly congressional republicans, got to touch or amend it the least.

The republican strategy regarding the ACA should be obvious to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention. They want to f*#k it up and make it a disastrous piece of legislation, keep calling it Obamacare, and hope and pray that we as Americans, instead of reflecting on the fact that all the republican modifications to the bill were things designed specifically to make it dysfunctional, will instead actually think that the ACA was in fact designed to f*#k us all over and vote GOP in the next election so they can continue f*#king us over.

What should be done instead is you all (republicans) should accept that the majority of this country wants everyone to have healthcare, so instead of discussing whether or not we all want it (this is clearly a settled issue), we should be talking about the best way to implement it so that it serves all of us Americans instead of the health care industry exclusively, which is what the current health care system pre-ACA definitely does, and what the GOP are trying to make the ACA do. In fact, the whole nature of their "discussions" regarding it is one big distraction in order to prevent them from doing just that. Wake the f*#k up. Seriously. America needs your ACTUAL participation.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Mar 7, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
Nice post jammer...they rather whine like little babies then actually do anything. They rather have the one-percent have it all than actually increase a livable wages for Americans, They rather have women go back to the stone age when it comes to abortions than pass a law that provides proper care for them. They make me ill. They are the problem with America, not Obama.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 7, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
"What should be done instead is you all (republicans) should accept that the majority of this country wants everyone to have healthcare, so instead of discussing whether or not we all want it (this is clearly a settled issue), we should be talking about the best way to implement it so that it serves all of us Americans instead of the health care industry exclusively, which is what the current health care system pre-ACA definitely does, and what the GOP are trying to make the ACA do."


Worth repeating.

Instead, you can count on the the Republicans to continue to work against the will and best interests of the American people so as to regain power, and wreak their unique brand of havoc on us all once again.
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