John M
climber
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If you prefer, we can raise the taxes on those still working, so that each worker supports one non-worker. Won't that make us as great nation?!
If you are speaking about medicare then the numbers would not be one to one. Many workers are already supporting more then one person simply by paying for their families healthcare.
What I believe Dr. F is trying to get towards is a single payer system for healthcare. Something government run like medicare which would cut out the profit. That profit could then be used to help cover those who currently don't have health insurance.
Since we already pay for a lot of them through programs like medicaid, and because hospitals already are required to treat them, the cost of which is already passed onto anyone who has insurance, then between the savings on profit, and the savings from not treating people in expensive hospital emergency rooms, there shouldn't necessarily be that much increase in overall cost.
If you plan to use medicare when you get old enough, then it must not be as bad as many imply. And since it already has a method for getting more options by purchasing your own private insurance over and above medicare, then those who want more could get more, but those who can afford insurance could then be covered.
Its a matter of removing the profit taken by insurance companies and the waste generated by treating people with no insurance in the most expensive way, which is emergency rooms.
Once this is done, then your health insurance would no longer come through your employer, saving them this cost and making them more competitive against every other first world country that has socialized medicine. This would make it easier to create jobs as that cost would go away. It would also be possible to pay higher wages.
Would taxes need to go up? Yes. but if you are already buying private insurance, then that cost would go down greatly. Otherwise, if your insurance is provided by a company, then you would need to get them to pass the cost savings they would get on to you which you could then apply towards the tax increase.
I do understand that it is a bit more complex then this, but that seems to me to be the gist.
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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OK, cap payments too
Fixed
insolvency in 20 years does not mean they are insolvent now, correct?
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Riley Wyna
Trad climber
A crack near you
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Beelzebub laughs heartily....
How do you humans communicate it on the web?
LOL.......
Ahahahahahahahahah
You do some of my best work Dunghole..
We are proud of you..
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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John M,
I agree that health insurance though employment is a big part of our problem, but I think the single-payer system isn't really the fix for it.
The real issue I see has been the gradual removal of the physician and patient as the primary decision-makers in health care. Under our current system, bureaucrats, either private (for private insurance) or public (for public assisted health care) make the real health care decisions, unless you pay a rather large premium that allows the patient more flexibility. I don't see how having just public bureaucrats making the decisions gives us a better system.
I've posted about what kind of health care system I'd like to see many times over several years, and I still will advocate for it. In my opinion, we make a mistake when we agree to a health plan that prepays for routine expenses. The administrative cost of such a system will eat up any savings. We should pay for those directly, and only rely on insurance for catastrophic events. We'll make better decisions, and spend our money more wisely.
If people believe that single-payer systems will allow us to spend money more wisely by, for example, spending less on end-of-life-care, I would ask them whether most end-of-life care isn't already under a single-payer system, viz. Medicare.
There's no free lunch, but at the very least, there are quite a few middlemen that could stand to eat a little less than they do under our current system.
John
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Lezarian..Yet you vote for the very party that wants to maintain the status quo of private insurance profits...?
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John M
climber
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In my opinion, we make a mistake when we agree to a health plan that prepays for routine expenses.
In one sense I agree with you, making people more directly responsible for their choices, but what I see is that this would simply mean that people would continue to avoid the doctor until their health was catastrophic in nature and the insurance would kick in. This has been shown to be a very expensive way to treat people. Much like treating them in hospital emergency rooms. So even though you would get a savings from not covering routine expenses, you would lose money from having to cover people with more extreme health issues that could have been avoided. A cost benefit analysis would need to be done. The last one I remember seeing some years ago said their was quite a savings by helping people prevent major illness. If I remember correctly Canada has done a number of these studies.
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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Health Care Insurance should be not for profit, nor linked to your employment. Our system is the World's worst, that is a fact.
The only good answer is Single Payer, but the Republicans will fight against common sense and saving money until the day they die, because the Republicans have been bought out by the Private insurance Companies, and they have bought the meme that socialism is bad, like idiots
Why won't they let us have a Public option if we want it??
Why won't they let us have a Single Payer if we want it??
Why do the Republicans make me pay More for health care insurance?
Who made them boss, why do they hate freedom?
What happened to a free Market approach?
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jghedge
climber
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"BTw that chart above has been debunked. I"m in a hurry otherwise I'd do now"
You're right - Texas is currently the only Red State in the Give-More-Than-Get column, the other 3 (NV, CO and FL) are now Blue States
Every other Red State is supported by the federal gov't - which is supported by the Blue States in the Give-More-Than-Get column
Just more proof that conservatism is...
Just Another Failed Ideology Consigned To The Ash Heap Of History
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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jghedge
climber
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"Again, your proposed lifting of the cap is no fix, unless you cap payments, in which case you've changed the system -- a fact you refuse to acknowledge."
I'd have no problem acknowledging it - if you cited something factual to back it up.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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John M - No respect on either side...! Yea, I here ya on that.
BTW, I was against the war in Iraq also, very much so! I got really bummed about Bush going in there. At the time, I felt it had a lot to do with how Saddam Hussein had threatened his father when he was in office (just what I sensed/my opinion at the time). Plus, the whole mixing of politics and religion to the point that one party is favored over another. Politics will either uphold or change laws, but they are not going to change the hearts of people.
I think there should be an exchange of ideas, etc, regarding politics and religion somewhere, but online it seems to bring out the worse in people at times. We say things they would never say face to face. I live in a gated condo complex and have been here going on seven years. Of all the people I know, maybe one knows that I'm a Christian. I see them all the time. I just don't bring it up unless they do.
The main thing I wanted to let you know, when I started the post, was why Jody deleted that one thread, I don't think he necessarily wanted to delete just it (dunno) but, regardless, he had no choice because everything got deleted. Then I kinda got carried away with slamming Riley. Maybe it had little to do with Riley. I really didn't follow his and Jody's encounters that closely. But, I think he tends to put people on both sides of the line off (MH schooled him on that) because of his acerbic disposition. Probably ends up doing more harm then good from whatever angle you look at it. That can go for all of us at times. I probably didn't help matters much by what I said. Like you said, we are all to blame, in some regards!
You know what they say about religion & politics, it tends to bring the worse in us. That's why happenings like FaceLift are great. It tends to bring out the best in people.
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John M
climber
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Hey Splitter.. I'm not that angry with Jody, though if he ever returns I will think twice before I contribute to any thread he starts. Part of what I believe is that he didn't really need to delete his posts. He didn't have that many because he has done this more then once, so I didn't understand what the big deal was. Seemed kind of petty, like he was taking his toys and going home because someone wasn't nice to him the way he wanted them to. He has that prerogative, but I will think twice before getting involved in anything with him. I believe that you have a greater responsibility when you start a thread.
Much as there is a difference if I am going cragging with a group of people or if I am going climbing with just one partner. My bailing has a different impact on each scenario.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Splitter some of us have been attacked on this site for years simply because we were not in Jack Booted Lock Step with the Shrub. Then we had to listen to 4 years of lies and fear mongering. We were attacked every time we confronted the baseless propaganda with facts. Some of us have had years of beatings for implying that Palestinians are people too. Splitter, when not on the attack many of us, even you come across as reasonably reasoned people. But If you are here without the context of the past and looking for undue patience well then buckle up it's gonna be a bumpy ride.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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WHY IS THIS VALUABLE INFORMATION OFF THE FRONT PAGE ON SUPERTOPO FORUMS!!!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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You lose Retardlicans.
Suck it.
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
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Can we regroup and focus on what's Important...
Bashing Republicans, that's what really matters
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Riley Wyna
Trad climber
A crack near you
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There are no sides..
There are normal intellegent members of the human race..
And then there are brain washed, retarded, fundamentalist, neocon, gun freak, antiscience, republitards..
This is a purely American phenomena -if you travel or live in other countries in the world you do not see this....well, maybe in Somalia.
To call them "a side" elevates it to an equivalent and reasonable alternative...
It is not....they are just a bunch of idiots that have been manipulated into a group of alike minded subhumans..
If we are going to progress as a race...as a species..solve the vast problems that face this planet....the only way is straight through or over these morons
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The Warbler
climber
the edge of America
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They lost before, and Obama didn't do it, but now it's time to rub their nose in the mess they made on the carpet.
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Dr. F.
Ice climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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SuperTopo on the Web
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