Why are Republicans Wrong about Everything?

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 38841 - 38860 of total 52604 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 14, 2012 - 07:46am PT
Bookworm wrote: actually, dirt, we ALL lost...


What a retard.
jghedge

climber
Nov 14, 2012 - 08:03am PT
"now, a brief lesson on supply and demand:"

"fewer employees making medical devices means fewer available medical devices which means higher prices for medical devices..."

Or, other companies will simply pick up the slack.

And the companies that laid off will lose business and fail.

Just like their party has.


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 14, 2012 - 08:11am PT
Funny, bookworm...I definitely feel like I won.

Which means that you lost.

Too bad extremism such as yours makes it that simple, but there you have it.
locker

Social climber
Nov 14, 2012 - 08:15am PT


"just a few companies announcing layoffs because of the costs of obamacare"...


Had Romney become President, they'd probably be announcing that polygamy is legal...

Hmmm...

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 14, 2012 - 08:58am PT
As to the OP WHY?
Because they just are!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 09:51am PT
Dogtown wrote

Watch our government go to hell under your Marxist leader. You’re dear leader President Obama is now taking apart our military leadership General by General if they don’t tow the line on Benghazi , where three navy seals, and our ambassador lost their lives. Only a moron would think that, attack was doing to a video. It was all a lie. You all need to get it in your mind that your dear leader is a Muslim despite what he says. And the Muslim world is at war with us whether we like it or not. And he is on their side.


huh? care to support any of that with "facts?" Please cite an example of a Marxist Muslim leader anytime in the history of the world? If fact, if you can't do that, how about citing ANY NOTABLE Marxist Muslims anywhere anytime? It's sorta like claiming he's an orthodox jewish kosher pig farmer who was born Chinese.

There's no scandal in Benghazi (unless it turns out that the safe house was a secret CIA Prison as has been alledged, in which case no wonder they don't want to be plain about divulging that secret) The GOP is dying to have a scandal to pin on Obama but the max you can say is that they had warnings that the place, like about 1000 other places, was facing threats and they didn't do everything possible to make it invulnerable (which they just can't do for every place that faces a threat) and that they didn't make that all clear to the public, (like they don't about 1000 other things)

Big deal

Peace

Karl
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:01am PT
Karl Baba just illustrated a big difference between repugs and reasonable people. He accurately used the word 'alleged'.

I don't ever recall a republican using that word in any of their accusatory rants. This is because they do not care for the truth. I suppose this is because facts tend to have a liberal bias.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:17am PT
Oh wait, maybe Obama is a Hindu, Jain, Sikh multi-god worshippper

Here's proof (far more than if he were a muslim)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=edwfv2kreUs#!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:25am PT
I think it's kinda Hilarious in a sick way that that the same people who didn't bat an eyelash when Bush lied to get us in a trillion dollar war, then it was proved that the falling of Saddam's statue was staged, that Jessica Lynches rescue was a sham, and that it was covered up that the football star was actually killed by friendly fire....these guys are suddenly offended that the military might not be completely transparant about whatever happened in Libya.

Crocodile tears

Peace

Karl
Silver

Ice climber
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:34am PT
I think it's kinda funny that approximately 650 hours of time minimum have been wasted on this thread and its topics attempting to prove your right and someone else is wrong.

That's some 300 trips up the nose for Hondo.

For you that's a sh#t load of time you could have spent on something that actually matters. Like family or perhaps climbing a rock.






Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:43am PT
In the case of companies that make medical devices, the new healthcare bill taxes their gross, not their profit, so even a company which is losing money on a particular product will be taxed on their sales of it.

This is insidious because at the same time the price medicaid and medicare will pay for these products is being reduced. So we're heading toward a situation where the government will control the price of the product, driving it down to where there is no profit, then tax the maker anyway.
jghedge

climber
Nov 14, 2012 - 10:53am PT
" So we're heading toward a situation where the government will control the price of the product, driving it down to where there is no profit, then tax the maker anyway."

Glad to hear it, that's exactly wha t voted for. Gov't cost controls on medical goods and services, and socialize medicine. Getting our health care back to 10% of GDP, instead of 20%.

All good.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:11am PT
Sounds like an unfortunate aspect of the plan but wonder if it doesn't have a positive side.

When I broke my arm, they prescribed an ultrasonic bone-healing device which cost a mint but could clearly have been produced for %5 of the cost. It was designed from the bottom up with proprietary non-rechargable batteries that could only be replaced by the factory and with a non-replaceable head so it was illegal to sell, pass on, or share. Total scam to milk their patent, which was merely for that particular frequency of Ultra-sound for use with bones.

I think insurance had to pay like $750 for the thing which retailed for the uninsured at $1500 and yet you could get more powerful ultrasound for muscles for $35 on ebay

Shame that we allow extreme profit to bust people who are sick favoring capitalism over people's health and welfare

Peace

Karl

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:22am PT
Hedge, the policies you so proudly say you voted for will drive these companies out of business or overseas. What then, do you want the government to take over the development and manufacture of medical equipment?

At the same time that the new health care laws will punish innovative companies making hi tech devices which in many cases improve outcomes because the equipment they replace was not as good if it existed at all, the cost of insurance is being driven up by mandated coverages that most people don't yet understand and when they do they will not need or want.

I'm sorry but it looks like this law is going to cause two numbers to go up: unemployment and the cost of health care. I hope I am wrong but I don't expect to be. Check back in a year or so...

Karl that is an interesting observation, my question would be that if it were left to the government would that technology even have been available to you?

Another point is that in the case of technology, more competition (not less) drives prices down. In the case of the ultrasound device with proprietary batteries which you describe, why is there not another company making a cost effective alternative?

Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Nov 14, 2012 - 11:47am PT
In the case of companies that make medical devices, the new healthcare bill taxes their gross, not their profit, so even a company which is losing money on a particular product will be taxed on their sales of it.

Medical devices are a high margin business. Any company that is losing money on a particular product has much bigger issues than a small tax.

Here's some actual facts about the particular tax:

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3684

I work at a medical device company. We just received $30M in venture capital and are hiring aggressively.

The industry is doing just fine. Any CEO that is blaming Obamacare for their company's shortcomings is just trying to blame others for their personal management failures.
jghedge

climber
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
"Hedge, the policies you so proudly say you voted for will drive these companies out of business or overseas. What then, do you want the government to take over the development and manufacture of medical equipment? "

Health care is 18% of US GDP, in countries with better health care and coverage it's 9-12%

If our health care industry can't provide goods and services economically commensurate with other countries, then obviously our country's health care business model is wrong, and deserves to be driven out of business - in fact, it is an economic imperative that it be driven out of business, and replaced with companies that can be commensurate.

And if it takes gov't cost controls to achieve this, so be it.


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Another point is that in the case of technology, more competition (not less) drives prices down. In the case of the ultrasound device with proprietary batteries which you describe, why is there not another company making a cost effective alternative?

They have a patent on using that frequency for use in bones so no competition is possible.

For the same reason, the same medicine that costs $800 for 30 pills costs $8 in India where patents aren't enforced well

Peace

Karl
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Gov't cost controls on medical goods and services

No, that doesn't control costs, it shifts them. While I have no doubt that this result is what you voted for, Joe, the terminology remains incorrect.

Dave, I don't read Kris saying that this will send all medical device manufacturing and innovation elsewhere, but it will certainly reduce it in the United States.

I just wish that were the only unintended consequence of the law. It, unfortunately, also contains financial disincentives for companies not to grow beyond ten or fifty employees, which does nothing good for overall employment or cost. Those who doubt that need to check economic history generally, and Mao's "Great Leap Forward" for a particular example of why I say this.

Insurance rates are already increasing to reflect mandates in the law, and the tax hit hasn't even begun in earnest yet.

For all these reasons, those who support the law need to work with the law's critics to fix its problems.

John
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
Dave, glad you're doing well, there are plenty that are not...

Welch Allyn — a manufacturer of medical diagnostic equipment in central New York — which says it will cut 275 employees, about 10 percent of its workforce, over the next three years.
Dana Holding Corp. — a global auto parts manufacturing company — which warned of layoffs due "$24 million over the next six years in additional U.S. healthcare expenses.’’
Stryker — a medical device manufacturer — which plans to close its facility in Orchard Park, N.Y., eliminating 96 jobs in December. They also say they’ll slash 5 percent of their global workforce, about 1,170 positions.
Boston Scientific — a medical device manufacturer — said it plans to cut between 1,200 and 1,400 jobs, while shifting investments and workers overseas to China.
Medtronic — a medical device maker — which cut 500 positions over the summer, with 500 more set to be eliminated by the end of 2013.
Other companies promising job cuts include: Smith & Nephew — 770 layoffs; Abbott Labs — 700 layoffs; Covidien — 595 layoffs; Kinetic Concepts — 427 layoffs; St. Jude Medical — 300 layoffs; and Hill Rom — 200 layoffs.

Karl are you talking about the Exogen device? Low frequency pulsed ultrasound for bone healing? I'm curious 'cause there's one for sale on eBay now for $49.95. I'm sure they make high priced one's too but they appear to be the patent holder and make a huge line of products.

So Hedge, I can quote you that you believe it is a legitimate role of government to drive companies out of business?
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Nov 14, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Credit: dirt claud
Messages 38841 - 38860 of total 52604 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews