Obesity

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 1 - 110 of total 110 in this topic
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 10, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
I shot a breast cancer benefit horse ride today with about 150 riders in it. About 50% of the participants were obese.. Seems like they should have had an obesity awareness ride as well as a breast cancer ride. INMOP many more of those riders will die from obesity related ailments than anything else. Pretty sad.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 10, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
are they holding a rally at fattrads house?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 10, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
Calories in calories out, easier for some , harder for others. When it comes to obesity I have no sympathy.
strangeday

Trad climber
Brea ca.
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
I could have gone my entire life without seeing that pic....
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
hey there say, tradmanclimbs....

say, i think i mentioned this before:

i saw a few documentaries, a ways back, when babysittting, on the depression times, and LOTS of film clips... it was rare, if ever, that you saw anyone that was 'heavy' as to being over weight...

on the averages, most folks were fairly uniform, by any heights, short or tall, etc...

it seemed to normal really, kind of like how the human body would naturaly shape out to being....

when seeing other shows, while babysitting (travel shows, or whatever, you did not see this at all... more folks were over-weight, as to those that weren't... surely that means something is wrong)....


*note: that does not mean that i want folks to be down and out, and hungry, :O (said nicely, dear folks)...
but you get my drift...
lack of self control, and too much on-hand and lower standards, as to self-care.... is very common now...




thanks for the reminder.. is good for us, if we have kids or grandkids...
they will only learn, if we teach them...
:)
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:21pm PT
Dean-

That picture is pretty...Gross!
WBraun

climber
Oct 10, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
What's gross about it?

Looks normal to me.

It's got all the body parts you have too ....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 11, 2011 - 12:59am PT
Obesity is 'bigger cause of breast cancer than smoking or drinking'
By SOPHIE BORLAND
Last updated at 9:52 AM on 20th July 2011


Obesity is the biggest avoidable cause of breast cancer, a study claims.
Women who are dangerously overweight are at a far higher risk even than those who drink heavily or smoke.

Experts have long known that the excesses of a modern, unhealthy lifestyle can dramatically increase the likelihood of breast cancer.

But now scientists have shown that obese women have far higher levels of cancer-triggering hormones than those who smoke or drink to excess.
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:59am PT
It's not that simple. I guess all those 5th and 6th grade kids who are fed crap in school should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps huh? My job, as a chronic disease epidemiologist who works on obesity has led me to understand that there is a lot going on in addition to individual choices. There are factors that help us to make better individual choices. And there is virtually no money available for obesity prevention.

Obesity is a risk factor for breast cancer, too.

My advise is to try and find a little sympathy.
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 11, 2011 - 10:15am PT
Obesity, that's why god invented slab climbing.
Archie Richardson

Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
Oct 11, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
Obesity is terminal to climbing. So climbers have all figured out a solution, or they have to quit climbing. It is (of course) mostly diet and exercise. There are several dietary pathways, the challenge is to find the best one that works for you. Some people cannot exercise and are stuck on bad diets (or medications) that cause obesity. This is very sad.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
Mike. i see what goes in their shopping carts and in their pie holes. every day is new day and a chance to start over. Not much sympathy here. Heck i quit booze. that certainly was not easy. fixed my own weight issues. It can be done.
Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
and OUR Great Benefactor has the gall to sell a lie such that they have blessed us with their federal direction on dining...So what else do you so? Take more taxpayers $$ and have an exhibition.

http://www.archives.gov/press/press-kits/whats-cooking/

get that? They take our $$$ and make unhealthy diet recommendations, we get fatter, then they take more $$ to tell how great they have helped us out.

The State...what a joke!
Gal

Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
Oct 11, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
I agree with Mike-there is a complex picture. When I watched "super-size me", the most disturbing part is about kids school lunches, soda in schools, etc. We begin being indoctrinated by crappy food at a very young age. Then with the fact that it is cheaper and super convenient to eat like crap verses home cooked healthy organic free range type. meals, that's another issue.

I feel sympathy in that I know nobody who gains weight or is obese feels good about it emotionally. Nobody is happy about that, so I feel for people in that sense.

As an adult, I really don't feel sympathy for myself if I gain a little, I do know it's my own fault. But there is a lot for people to overcome by what they are surrounded by and I mostly feel for the youngsters, how can they have a chance with the brainwashing marketing they are subjected to? These companies spend huge amounts of money targeting kids/teens because it WORKS. It has far reaching effects that follow someone through the rest of their life. It's unethical, IMO, to market to young with unhealthy food. Really, we all were subjected (for the most part) to this marketing when we were young. Some of us can overcome it, but the statistics show that most of us can't (referring to the general popultion) even if we know what is healthy once we are adults able to make our own choices.

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
Gal

Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
Well Ghost unfortunately the pic on the left will be catching up to the right as McDonalds invades the world... Europe is not immune...
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
I feel compassion for obese kids because they learn the habits from their parents, from school food, from TV commercials, etc. They have not had time to build up their defenses against the mountain of distorted messages that obscure the basic nature of healthy eating and physical activity.

We've had a war on drugs... where's the war on TV? Surely the inactivity engendered by TV (and the high volume brainwashing with unhealthy food choices) will eventually kill more people in the US than all alcohol and cigarette and illegal drug deaths combined?

But then again, we'd have to take away TV and Internet these days. And I'm not ready to give up my supertaco.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Oct 11, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
One of the things that is surprising to me is how the perception of what equals overweight has really shifted. I know so many people who think that lean people are unhealthy and that one is only overweight when they need to buy their clothes in the plus sized section...and even then if you're tall there might be some equivocation.

Every year my pants get another size smaller, but I just stay the same weight. (Who's got the reference?)
Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
Hey Sean, welcome to the tacostand!

Wow nice one... lets do a quick fact check.


You leech off the taxpayers in your STATE job...Did you forget who puts food on your table, MR. STATE EMPLOYEE?
Did you neglect to notice that the taxpayers bought the chair you plop your ample ass into every morning?


I am just trying to get a fraction of my $$ back. Our finances are none of your biz but it certainly in knott the $$ from this job that puts food on the table.

No taxpayer paid a cent for the chair or desk I have. First thing I did was had the desk and pathetic chair removed from the room and then brought in my own office furniture, much more comfy and the students enjoy sitting in comfortable seats when they meet with me.

Lighten up dood, someone has to show the future leaders of the free world that they can second guess that statist quo.

Aloha,
will



the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 11, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
Calories in calories out, easier for some , harder for others. When it comes to obesity I have no sympathy.

calories in / out is the biggest factor, but it's not the end of the story. Metabolism and other factors play a big role. Some people can have very strict diets and the weight stubbornly barely comes off. Some people are thin while eating a lot and not trying. Someone who is obese is never going to become beanpole, and someone who is a beanpole is not going to all of a sudden become obese.

I think a big factor is the level of your blood sugar when your hunger kicks in. I think it's different for different people. I get hungry every 3 hours, my wife can go 6 hours. Obese people are probably hungry all the time.

I have less sympathy when people eat tons of crappy food (and a diet coke), but I know it's easier for some than others. I also know food is a psychological crutch for some people.

So I have sympathy, but I also know that it's up to the individual to eat right and exercise. It is easier (not just mentally but physically) for some than others.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Oct 11, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
Yes, that harness makes your ass look big...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
I was in the restarunte bar buisnes for 23 years . can't tell you the number of fat lazy people who sat at our bar sucking down suds and stuffing their faces with fries and extra cheese nachos while complaining that they had a slow metabolism. One of those guys we used to call Jabba the Hut. I took a closeup shot of him with a 20mm lense and posted behind the bar. He got a good look at his six chins and freaked out! Dude started working out and sking etc. lost 160 lbs
Metabolism my arse..........
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 11, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
hey there say, melissa....


as to your qoute:
Every year my pants get another size smaller, but I just stay the same weight. (Who's got the reference?)

if you find this happening, i am not sure, but it reminds me of something i read somewhere.... not sure if it was a news article about sewing patterns, or what??? or just buying in department store:

it went on to say something like this, ( though i do not know how true this is)...

it was saying that patterns were making smaller size numbers for larger bodies... *since not so many folks were as thin as years back...

and then it said that dress and pants sizes were including larger "person" sizes, for the size number, henche, a size 6 would really be for a person of size 8, or something like that...

*the odd reason was said to be so that american shoppers would not be so embarresed by having to buy such bigger sizes...

i don't know how true this is... but my mom and a few folks from "back in the day" do seem to remember smaller size numbers in patterns, NOT being TO MATCH what they are today...


*say, i know that boys jeans now, always seem to come in the loose fit a lot... it is hard to find the other regulars anymore, in the smaller stores, ... not sure how it is in the bigger cities though...




well, i just shared in case you were wondering on why this was, or, what happened.... (i may not have understood correctly though, so i messed up, please forgive... )...


:)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 11, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
hey there, say, archie... say, as to medicines... i know of stories from the epilepsy sites, where a few folks share how the medications that stop their seizures have caused them to gain a lot of weight, and it was very upsetting to them, being that to gain ability to function back to normal, they were tampering with their health, not only as to liver etc, but as to their excess weight...

PLUS for the self-esteem issues that they trying to overcome, now they didn't even look "like they used to look", and this was another burden, against who they were fighting to be:

the way they were, without the seizures...

very hard stuff... harder still, when this burden is on kids or pre-teens having to deal with this, too...


one gal felt like folks thought she was lazy, due to her weight, though she had no choice in that matter, due to her trying to control the seizures....

note:
*course, i know this is SIDE issue, as to the wrong food standards, etc, that are the major cause of overweight, as compared to years back, before it was so prevailent....

Archie Richardson

Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:40am PT
Over 164 million prescriptions for antidepressants were written in the US in 2008 (Wiki). Antidepressants can cause weight gain.
YoungGun

Trad climber
North
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:51am PT
@Cragman: really don't appreciate the photo. Some of us browse at work, ya know?
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Oct 12, 2011 - 08:34am PT
I posted comments on this subject on another thread I started months ago.

It is NOT as simple as calories in equals calories out and another comment often mentioned blaming a "SLOW" metabolism.

Fat must be burned in order to loose it: the more you exercise the faster the fat loss; however this is NOT true for everyone. Genetically, about 1/3 of the population is predisposed to rapid weight gain by eating the WRONG type of carbohydrate. The type which breaks down rapidly into glucose; which raises blood sugar levels, triggering the rapid release of insulin from the pancreas. Insulin's job is to lower blood sugar levels and PACK ON FAT.

Many of the obese people in this country have the above genetic type and due to IGNORANCE are unaware of it.

This fact coupled with the combination of a lack of motivation to exercise and BURN fat are the prime reasons for our sorry state.

One poster above mentioned that he is hungry every three hours. This is due to eating the "wrong" type of carbohydrates, triggering a rapid insulin response. The blood sugar levels drop, ( as long as the insulin is still working and doing it's job), and the brain signals the human to eat more, since it is deprived of glucose. The cycle keeps repeating and the poor, unaware individual is constantly packing on fat.

Worse still is the FACT that these poor individuals who inherited this trait, through no fault of their own, are UNABLE to burn FAT if their insulin levels are elevated. These unlucky individuals may work out hard trying to loose weight with little success and very often just give up.

It is pretty easy to point the finger and just say these people are simply lazy etc. I know from personal experience what I am talking about since I to have inherited this trait. All my brothers and sisters are MORBIDLY OBESE. I have an identical twin brother who has close to a 60 inch waist!

I fortunately learned how keep my weight down, (I'm still climbing pretty hard at 65), by being introduced to Dr. Barry Sears thru a friend. Sears wrote the book, "Enter the Zone" which changed my life for the better. This book can be bought on Amazon used for a few bucks.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I'm a little tired of simplistic answers to a rather complex problem. The vast majority of the population
is IGNORANT when it comes to understanding the complex hormonal response
triggered every time we eat.

I have preached this to my brothers and sisters, but it falls on deaf ears.

Even with spot on knowledge, one has to apply it!

raymond phule

climber
Oct 12, 2011 - 08:47am PT
About the size thing. I have some clothes from decathlon where the signs says USA S, EUR M.
YoungGun

Trad climber
North
Oct 12, 2011 - 09:33am PT
Just noticed this study published online ahead of print in the journal Drug Testing and Analytics, which suggests that both performance-enhancing drugs and hard training “may alter the expression of specific genes involved in muscle and bone metabolism by epigenetic mechanisms, such as DNA methylation and histone modifications.” Cool, huh? This is why the “genetics versus training” debate is so irreducibly complicated: training can effectively change your genetics.

The SciAm article focuses on evidence that overweight mothers may pass the tendency to be overweight on to their children. What’s crucial is that this “inherited” trait isn’t encoded in DNA — instead, it’s how the DNA’s instructions are carried out that is altered. For example, there’s preliminary evidence that children born to an overweight mother before she undergoes gastric bypass surgery are more likely to become overweight when they grow up than their siblings born after the surgery [EDIT: see this AP story or this study for details]. If this was a simple genetic inheritance (i.e. through DNA), the surgery wouldn’t make any difference to inherited traits. Instead, it appears to be an epigenetic phenomenon.


http://sweatscience.com/training-changes-your-genetics-or-rather-epigenetics/
YoungGun

Trad climber
North
Oct 12, 2011 - 11:54am PT
Sorry locker, not gonna take the bait =)
YoungGun

Trad climber
North
Oct 12, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
If you DID get in trouble for viewing photo's...

something tells me that you'd much rather it be of a more attractive woman...

LOL!!!...

Nah, I didn't get in trouble... and yea, I'm just bitching because it was gross. ;)
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Oct 12, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
For example, there’s preliminary evidence that children born to an overweight mother before she undergoes gastric bypass surgery are more likely to become overweight when they grow up than their siblings born after the surgery [EDIT: see this AP story or this study for details]. If this was a simple genetic inheritance (i.e. through DNA), the surgery wouldn’t make any difference to inherited traits. Instead, it appears to be an epigenetic phenomenon.

Wouldn't mom's eating behavior and what was fed to and observed by the kids be altered post bypass too?

Anectodal, but anyway...I'm the only person in my family except for a nephew that doesn't need to lose weight. My genes aren't better than anyone else's. My diet is. I have never spent significant time with anyone who was overweight where their overeating relative to their activity wasn't obvious, although I'd say that a majority would claim that they ate healthy, reasonable amounts of food and were physically fit.

It's like there is a perception disconnect. If they perceive themselves as having a healthy lifestyle dialed without getting the desired outcome, then they think that they are genetically doomed and stop trying to change anything.

Like, when my mom defends a friend of ours who weighs nearly 400 lbs. for eating mostly vegetables and salads, I'm baffled by her desire to believe this. It defies the physical laws of nature. He doesn't have magic genes that can conjure fat from nothingness. He'd need to be eating asparagus by the bail.
Steve's sister

Social climber
Las Vegas, NV
Oct 12, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
If those in question of being obese are in fact cancer patients, then the steriods they take as part of their treatment may be the cause. For some women this is emotionally harder than the hair loss.





ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Oct 12, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Oh man, on discussions like these, I can really see how perspective colors every comment.

And with weight issues, it makes sense.

In the past, I've held to the idea that people's bodies align with their lifestyle. I want to do more with my body than average mainstream Americans want, so my body is shaped different than some of them.

With weight, I find there are so many issues that people will take into account, physical, emotional, mental...and depending on the person, they can use these factors as a crutch/excuse to prevent them from achieving their goals or use it as information to further their desired achievement.

As someone who happens to be the heaviest/thickest/softest in my family and friends, and struggle with weight management every day I am constantly slapped with the reality that for me, it's just.not.that.easy. And if it's true for me, it must be true for others.

I try to comfort myself with the knowledge that the body is far more malleable than I think. It's my mind that will always be too hard and brittle for what I want to achieve. Hopefully, time will keep on letting me search for right balance.

Now...don't get between me and the pastry...I need it to feel good and it's the only thing that will work. Trust me, I've tried...

2p

LS
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 12, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
Nice LS.

As others have said, simply it's calories in vs calories out. But that's not very helpful, and a little condescending.

What is creating the demand for the calories in? I think the body craves nutrition and if you eat low nutrition foods, there will always be a demand for more food.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Oct 12, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
I think the 'calories in - calories out' is a reality, but it just doesn't address all the mechanisms in play.

Yes, it's true, but it doesn't take into account that eating is emotionally linked for some. It FEELS GOOD and makes me happy. Nutrition might not (and probably not) have anything to do with it.

When my friends down a Guinness/Murphy's that has more calories than the donut I'm stuffing into my face, we're not actually craving nutrition, we're craving a different kind of satisfaction. Knowing and acknowledging the reality of calories in vs calories out doesn't change the desire (which feels like a need) for that specific flavor of satisfaction. Balancing out that donut and beverage with a calorie burning activity just might not bring that mental satisfaction those people are searching for.

I've noticed that a generous portion of my leaner friends don't get the same enjoyment out of food that I do. They get that type of enjoyment through something else - exercise, sex, video games, drugs, or whatever, but not food. These people have better impulse control when it comes to food.

Me, it's like being in a room full of hot scantily-clad people and being told not to have any sex related or sensual thoughts. Just not that easy.

Calories in-calories out. I'm sure that people besides me wish it were as simple in practice as in word.

I'll say this, it was much easier to control my eating when I had a very rigid food budget. Eat on $20 a week, no exceptions no matter how shitty your brain is feeling, and the weight will begrudgingly stabilize.

Thanks for reading from this side of the peanut gallery..

Cheers

LS

monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 12, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
What the body craves and what the mind craves can be too different things. The body signals the mind it wants something, but can't really say exactly what it is, so the mind goes back to it's favorite things, depending on many factors, like social needs, convenience,etc.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 12, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
It's funny it's usually the people who are naturally thin who say "it's only calories in vs calorie out, what's the big deal". But it IS different for different people, it's not just behavior it's genetics. Some people process more calories into energy some people store them as fat.

Some people also put muscle on easier than others. I've worked out with naturally thin friends who did the same workout schedule as me and I put muscle on much easier than them. I don't say "you're just not working hard enough" I know it's phyically easier for me to gain muscle with the same amount of work. One of my friends had "chicken legs" and worked them out a lot, while I have barely done any weight training on my legs and mostly from skiing and other sports they are much more muscular than his. It's genetics.

Of course I have little sypmathy for the lazy morbidly obese people that have horrible fatty/salty diets (and always seem to wear flip flops when their feet really need to most supportive shoes they could get), but I realize it's probably harder for them to limit their calories and enjoy excercise the way I do.
the goat

climber
north central WA
Oct 12, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
calories in, calories out
Easy for JD to say, skinny little runt. Next time I see him cragging (as long as it's close to the car) I'm going to sit on him while eating a Snickers......king size of course.
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Oct 12, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
Tradmanclimbs, I'll bet that you are white, above poverty. I would even guess that you had two parents and probably went to college.

As a group, climbers aren't usually lacking in self esteem or self efficacy. We're a pretty confident bunch. It takes confidence to criticize how other people that you've never met climb on a public forum. But many people lack support, lack social structures and have serious esteem issues. Obesity disproportionately effects racial and ethnic minorities, low income, and low education.

Sure, obesity is related to personal behavior. But society has a lot to do with choices we make about our personal behaviors. The largest increase in obesity happens between 3rd and 5th grade. Do those kids get to choose what they eat and how much physical activity they get? The same scumbag corporations that are hooking kids on tobacco are also hooking them on soda and fast food - prime ingredients for a lifetime of obesity and diabetes.

Compounding the problem is the way we've engineered physical activity out of our lives. How many of you walked or rode your bike to work today? Yeah, I thought so. Even better, how many of you walked your kid to school today?

It's pretty easy to drive your Suburu's to the crag after work, knock off a few pitches and then criticize the poor overweight minority person who is working two full-time jobs, trying to provide a better life for his/her child. These people don't feel empowered to change their lives. Have some empathy.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 12, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
Yeah, run to work, like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tQA3Tvkg_s&feature=player_embedded

I've met and run with this guy. Inspirational!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
Its just like the alchoholics who cry poor me i have a disease. Bullsh#t. Your a rageing drunk. Life actually is that simple most of the time but folks can't handle the truth so they make up a bunch of BS to make themself feel better. We are the most over digagnosed society in the history of the world. we got a big word and an expensive drug for every little ailment concievable.. Why deal with the truth when you can pass the buck to a warm fuzzy disease and try to buy your way out of it with doctors visits and drugs instead of willpower and self help.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 12, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
There is the theory that the descendants of many of the Indians who adapted to repeated privations are now obese because of it.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 12, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
Tradmanclimbs, true.

I've got dontgiveashitimbetterism.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 12, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
The more intellegent posts here are right on target as far as causes and cures for obesity.

The making fun of fat people posts by 'climbers' makes me not want to include myself in that group.


tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
Mike.
Yes White.
No College and not all that rich. doing ok now but lived in a tarpaper shack w no flush toilet, gravity feed water, outdoor shower, privy in the back of the woodshed for 21 years.

I am a recovered alcholic. Working in restarunts I have watched a lot of people eat.

Have good friend right now who is white, college educated and sixty pounds overweight. Great guy, hard worker, super natural athlete but drinks a liter of Mtn dew , huge sammich and a large bag of chips for lunch and a bunch of hippy beers with dinner....

Every day is a new day.
gonzo chemist

climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
Oct 12, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
I'll throw in a few stories/anecdotes just for shits.


I have a very close friend who spent most of his life very overweight. He ate like crap, drank booze a TON, and smoked. About 5 years ago (right around the time I first met him) he started dating a girl who was a fit soccer fanatic. She played in leagues and loved to run and work out. I watched as he literally woke up one day and said to himself, "I'm sick of being the way I am." He quit smoking, stopped drinking, paid close attention to his diet and started working out/running 5 days a week. He dropped 65 pounds, plays soccer like a manic, loves to road-bike and mountain-bike, and is damn fit now. Its pretty damn inspirational. And he IS a "working stiff." Its not like he's some out-of-work guy, with ALL damn day to workout, etc. He just made a conscious choice to build it in to his life (inspired by his GF).

I have two other close friends who are hot-shot chefs in Providence, RI. Their jobs are literally to prepare food, and taste, and eat, etc. They have to eat and come up with new ideas and dishes all the time. But they both are thin. Why? Because they understand the importance of dietary balance, and REASONABLE portions.


I have yet another friend who was obese, but got f*#king sick of it. Made a conscious choice to change his life. Here's the story: http://www.theday.com/article/20110929/NWS01/309299958/-1/zip06


Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
It frustrates me that "calories in, calories out" comes across as nasty instead of factual to people.

A lot of people that I love are obese and suffer plenty of health problems as a result. When they talk about their inability to loose weight, they never concede that they are eating too many calories, but are convinced there is some other problem that is solely responsible...generally a problem that is entirely out of their control like genes.

Our desire to be polite and not offend has skewed perceptions of reality enough that, although clearly there are other issues besides simply eating less involved, the issue of eating less and exercising more seems to get lost entirely for some people. In most cases, one needs to make major changes in areas other than food to make the calories in/calories out balance favorable and sustainable, but it will always be the physical basis for weight loss.

Mike F., in your work, how do you factually address this fundamental physical cause of obesity with your patients/subjects (not just the social factors which promote it which I agree are huge)? By focusing on the stuff that's so hard or impossible to change, it seems like people are left thinking that they have no power over their own situation.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
How can calories in, calories out be construed as nasty? People who think so must be overly poltically correct and math challenged.
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
Melissa,

I work for public health, so we don't deal with patients or individuals directly. There is a pretty large body of research that shows what works and doesn't work at a societal level. It's all about policy and environment.

Telling someone they are at risk for chronic disease and that they need to eat right and exercise is not effective. Building trails and parks in their communities is effective. Telling people they should eat better is not effective. Having healthy food in schools and at events such as conferences, meetings, weddings, whatever is effective. A policy that I'm strongly in favor of is soda tax and/or fast food tax. The money could benefit schools and research has demonstrated a clear reduction in tobacco use with increased taxes.

Marginalizing the individuals is just complaining and won't do anything to help the problem. Making it easier for people to make the right choice is the way to solve the problem. Colorado has by far the lowest obesity rate in the country and they are way ahead of the other states with respect to policy and environmental changes.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
I have two other close friends who are hot-shot chefs in Providence, RI. Their jobs are literally to prepare food, and taste, and eat, etc. They have to eat and come up with new ideas and dishes all the time. But they both are thin. Why?

Cocaine. Every high-end chi-chi cuisine kitchen in the world runs on coke. Chefs, cooks, dishwashers, the lot of em.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
I don't buy the calories in, calories out argument all that much. It's way to over-simplistic. With that thinking, 200 calories from brown rice are equal in nutritional value to 200 calories in Doritos? Doubtful.

My body responds rather rapidly to changes in my diet. I eat like crap, my energy level is lower, I want to sleep more and I get a little softer around my mid section. I start to remove "bad carbs", sugar and heavily refined foods, the opposite happens, fast.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
In my short lifetime I've seen the rise of the Big Gulp (i.e. 48oz giagantor fountain soda), "Super Size", and candy/soda vending machines in schools that students can access(WTF?!). "Scooters" in every store and Jerry Springer specials where the cut the side off some poor bastard's house because they're so fat they can't get them through a doorway and are so far gone they need medical attention before they keel from sheer fatness.

My best friend in grad school was about 370, on a 5'6" frame. Great guy, amazingly talented musician. His entire family was "normal" sized and his brother ran marathons. No genes problem there. And truth be told, I never really saw him eat anymore than I did. Weird.

I've got a 30" waist. I can't find a $%&* belt that fits that doesn't have Spiderman or Spongebob on it.

You have a 9-10" drop between chest and waist? Forget about buying a paired-suit, you're only getting separates, even "athletic cut" suits only have an 8" drop and normal is 6". I saw a pair of 54" waist jeans on the shelf the other day.

Good, fresh, healthy food is expensive compared to the HFCS filled, packaged crap. Ever try shopping in the ghetto? It's ridiculous. The grocery stores in downtown Atlanta or bad sections of New Orleans...good luck finding something remotely healthy in there.

Is there a point to my incoherent rambling? Not really. Just random thoughts on obesity, man.
slidingmike

climber
CA
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
When my friends down a Guinness/Murphy's that has more calories than the donut I'm stuffing into my face, we're not actually craving nutrition, we're craving a different kind of satisfaction.

Actually, this is a misconception. Guinness Draught is one of the lightest beers out there by density and by calories; it's caloric content is equal to that of most light beers. Notice how it floats on top of an ale in a black & tan. If you're gonna drink beer, that's the way to go. Damn, I think I gotta go find one now!

(and it's about half the calories of most doughnuts)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 12, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
It is not nasty Jim just insensitive to people that try to eat healthy and moderately but still struggle with weight problems.

It is just easier for some people rather than others. It is in our software.






But the morbidly obese? Give me a break! Look at what some of them eat.
No effort no pity!

Use a stick to wipe your butt if you have to and buy another goddamn seat on the phucking plane.
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
Oct 12, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
i got behind in my bills so
i left my tree work for a desk job.
i just turned in my consulting hours,
260 hours, and every minute of that swath
i was sitting idle in my chair pushing buttons
and flipping pages.

no climbing of late as my bills are getting caught up
and my november deadline is looming.

i see this as a potential path to obesity.
its a pysiological problem,
it is also a cultural symptom
as we celebrate excess at
the cost of our personal health.

so's now i wear this stone jewelry, obesity shield around my kneck,




matisse

climber
Oct 12, 2011 - 08:54pm PT
It frustrates me that "calories in, calories out" comes across as nasty instead of factual to people.

Because it is true on one level and not on another. The problem is complex:

Obesity is a fat deposition dysregulation problem. Fat regulation is controlled by insulin, insulin levels increased by sugar. Not all calories in are equal- the basis of some diets low in carbohydrates. you should check out the research on ingesting certain types of nuts, if I remember the studies correctly in subjects on a controlled diet replacing some calories by ingesting walnuts resulted in weight loss that could not be explained by the calorie totals-fascinating stuff.

The second thing is that it doesn't take much of a misjudgement of the calories in calories out equation to result in weight gain. 75-100 calories a day too much (i.e. a small cookie) is 8-10 pounds a year, multiplied by a few years is bam - you are a great big fattie.

Things get interesting when you consider basal metabolic rate which varies hugely between individuals representing the hidden calories out that you don't have much control over- except to say that if you have subjected yourself to episodes of starvation it has the effect of lowering your basal metabolic rate, and if you are someone who has a low BMR to begin with and it responds briskly to lowered intake by a further reduction, it is much harder to have a negative caloric balance than someone who has a high BMR that doesn't respond.

So when I watch the S/O's congenitally skinny family, who exercise less than I do, chow down on more calories for breakfast than I will eat in my entire day, all the while proclaiming moral superiority for their attention to weight management, I grind a few molars.

That doesn't give a pass to all of those other factors like eating huge portions (a notable feature of american restaurants as any foreigner will tell you), and living your life like a slab of veal and all of those other complex social factors, but it isn't as simple as food calories in, exercise calories out.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 12, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
Thanks for that Matisse. Very true. Here is my story to add to this discussion.


I agree Ron too. Jim Donini, love him to death and have been a friend for forty-one years, is not usually sensitive and being what---a size 3---would not understand the problems of obesity like some of us who find it actually a strange and very challenging problem. Matisse really bears down on the issue just above.

There is no question, the epidemiology of obesity is terrible. Not only is itself rampant in this country but it shortens the lives of those so afflicted in a multitude of ways which are also epidemic now. And alongside these problems, usually obese individuals are stigmatized insidiously both in the workplace and socially. Obesity also seems to be viewed in athletic communities as a sort of atrocious moral failure. Many people cannot see fat people clearly.

It is true that the incidents of obesity stemming from actual endocrinological dysfunctions are quite rare and that obesity is mostly flourishing from diet and inactivity, despite protestations to the opposite. This is just medical fact. In short, the complaint of some obese individuals that their problem is glandular or similar, in most all cases would be invalid.

However many fat people are caught in a variety of very difficult traps that would be tough for anyone to overcome, believe me.

In my case, I have severe arthritis in both knees, acute in the right (it's bone -on-bone), not to mention my right hand and shoulders to a lesser extent. It has been mounting for a bit more than a decade now, as the last of the cartilage disappeared from that right knee after a million hours of extreme use, wear and a number of acute traumas to that leg while skiing, bouldering and surfing the last four decades. Originally back in the day I was perhaps fitter than anyone on this Forum.

Upon losing almost all my considerable source of income during this recession about mid-2009---it was like a death in the immediate family---I became not only far less active (as a hands-on builder, heavy equipment operator and climber) but also clinically depressed as a result. The weight appeared out of nowhere it seemed and I gained 70 lbs in four years, thirty in the last ten. As Matisse above says, the little incremental nature is insidious. During these bad times, I taught myself Photoshop and went to a lot of happy hours in my community and of course worked on the articles that have made their way here on Supertopo and Alpinist Magazine and the American Alpine Journal. But moving around and playing was really not something I wanted to do at all. My typical exercising was not at all comfortable any longer; my outlook and emotional life had deteriorated dramatically, and with the weight I became clinically diabetic (type II), making weight gain an even bigger problem and far more persistent an issue than when I was in normal health---it doubled up this sickness so to speak. This all resulted in a massive regimen of meds taken to protect and save my life. These in themselves have side effects that further the desire to stay sedentary...the spiraling downward is very hard to resist.

My solution, finally, is to get the knee totally replaced and resume many of my old optimistic pursuits and projects. This is supposed to happen 30 days from now. It is going to be quite daunting as the surgery and recovery will take months, money and one hell of a lot of painkillers and physical therapy. I will lose most all of this weight I have put on eventually but do realize that to do this, it will require a tremendous amount of new steady effort and positive thinking on my part to maintain the view to daylight.

After I became fat (to put it honestly) I did come to a completely new understanding of ‘what it is like to be fat’ in social situations and in work. This has been my own "Black Like Me" experience. I had always wondered what being fat was like back when I could do one arm pull-ups and outrace Bridwell down talus slopes, namely even when I was in perfect shape.

There is a remarkable problem there for the obese. Many people will marginalize you if they can; some will feel better in so doing, as they are ‘superior’ after all. It’s quite primitive actually. You will often be invisible to those whom you find deeply and importantly attractive. It will seem worse than your aging. Some friends will feel terrible for you; others will try to escape the relationship or minimize it, their view of you now badly blurred. You will have a lifetime’s wardrobe you can’t fit in and will be pushed into the plus sizes, humiliated as the inevitable truth burns through---the practical reality of being giant rubbed in your face even at the simplest stages of the day. Others even will find you hard to listen to carefully, as they find you repellent and ‘globally wrong’.

Everyone must try as best they can to be healthy but it just is not that easy. There are very very few people on this Forum that are actually optimal especially in their later years. They may not be obese but they may very well be defaulting in other ways perhaps not as stimatized. I now look at obese people with a great deal of sympathy and understanding. I wonder inside as I try to search out how they might have grown to twice their size or more, and so disabled really. With nearly half of us in the USA obese, understanding the problem in depth is going to be quite important and using the Lord of the Flies methods will do nothing but great and further harm.
Daphne

Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
Oct 12, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
matisse and Peter Haan are two reasons why I love this forum. Thanks for two thoughtful posts that sum it up for me.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 12, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
Thank you for your honesty Peter.
I hope some folks here can learn from your cander.


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
Oct 12, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
Peter, as your upcoming surgery and rehab proceed I hope you write about it here. Perhaps you might start your own thread concerning your experience, progress, ascent. As always, you're very insightful, tfpu.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2011 - 12:37am PT
Peter provides some helpful insights, as always, including a personal angle. Thanks!

Rumour has it that things like swimming can be quite helpful in recovering. Another friend swears by his dog, which insisted on some good healthy exercise every day. That does seem the ticket - steady, moderate, varied exercise and a good diet go a long way. You don't have to be an extreme climber to be fit. And maybe that's part of the problem - standards, perhaps in part arising from popular and news media culture, that are unrealistic and unattainable.
BLR

Trad climber
Lower Eastside
Oct 13, 2011 - 01:09am PT
Why Even Resolute Dieters Often Fail
By JANE E. BRODY
Published: September 19, 2011

Excerpt:

Debunking a Long-Used Rule

//According to the researchers, it is easy to gain weight unwittingly from a very small imbalance in the number of calories consumed over calories used. Just 10 extra calories a day is all it takes to raise the body weight of the average person by 20 pounds in 30 years, the authors wrote.

Furthermore, the same increase in calories will result in more pounds gained by a heavier person than by a lean one — and a greater proportion of the weight gained by the heavier person will be body fat. This happens because lean tissue (muscles, bones and organs) uses more calories than the same weight of fat.

In an interview, Dr. Hall said the longstanding assumption that cutting 3,500 calories will produce a one-pound weight loss indefinitely is inaccurate and can produce discouraging results both for dieters and for policy changes like the proposed tax on sugar-sweetened beverages.//

Full article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/health/20brody.html?pagewanted=all

Also - article about systems thinking and global obesity epidemic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/13brody.html?pagewanted=all
Papillon Rendre

Social climber
Oct 13, 2011 - 03:16am PT
What's eating Gilbert Grape?

The ending was very poignant.

This film gave me a glimpse of the suffering and shame the morbidly obese and their families experience.

I feel enormous empathy for all who suffer from weight related issues.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 13, 2011 - 04:37am PT
Good posts.

It's not the calories in / calories out that's nasty it's the no sympathy part. Of course calories in / out is the determining factor for most people, but that is MUCH harder for some people than others.

I was at a gym with a pool recently and they were having a water exercise class. Probably everyone in it was obese and most were older. These people couldn't run, bike, etc. their bodies couldn't stand up to any impact, so they attend these water classes whenever they are scheduled. Now that it's getting cold I hope the pool is heated and they keep them going. These people have a long road ahead of them and they probably will never been at a "normal" BMI, but they were working at it. It was inspirational actually.

I can do a long approach and climb, go skiing, do some limited running, weight training, surfing, etc. and enjoy getting my exercise. I've had to work through some issues with physical therapy, and can't do what I used to, but I can still do a lot, now my right knee is starting to go and I'll have to see about physical therapy (hopefully) for that too. These people don't have that luxury. I can get good produce year round, some people can't, or they have never been educated about healthy diets.

Another easy way to see that it's different for different people is that for most of us we experience a change in metabolism as we get older. If I ate like I did in my 20s I'd be obese for sure. Pretty much every decade my body changes where I need to eat less and less to maintain the same weight (well a little bit heavier :-)
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Oct 13, 2011 - 05:39am PT
Actually, this is a misconception. Guinness Draught is one of the lightest beers out there by density and by calories; it's caloric content is equal to that of most light beers. Notice how it floats on top of an ale in a black & tan. If you're gonna drink beer, that's the way to go. Damn, I think I gotta go find one now!

(and it's about half the calories of most doughnuts)

Damn, this is what I get for trusting those who must drink for me. Thank you for the clarification. I was assured that a good pint of Guinness had the same caloric value as it's traditional partner, the Sunday Roast dinner. Thus, my friends would proudly declare they were efficiently consuming twice the calories at one meal. Based on your statement, they are wrong and it makes sense, though I've never seen a black & tan.

My donut is 250 calories. I still think 1 serving of beer (3 pints) has a bigger number than my one serving of donut (1 donut). Heh.

I always seem to believe that my mind will bend to the power of numbers and that by keeping so many numbers in my head, I will unlock the magic power of mind over body and be done with this whole pastry obsession.

I'm hoping it will work this next time around.

Then I'll have the whole shapechanging thing down right.

Best wishes to everyone and cheers

LS
Archie Richardson

Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
Oct 13, 2011 - 08:43am PT
When I was 20 I could eat pretty much what I wanted. If I needed to lose 5 lbs, I would exercise more and it would disappear in 2 wks. Now that I'm approaching 60, I find that diet is the most important part of the equation. I can't exercise enough to burn it off anymore. Low fat diets do not work well for me, and the food pyramid is disaster.
Lately Mark's Daily Apple has provided helpful guidance that seems to work. Mark advocates a high fat "Primal" diet emphasizing meat and veggies. Controversial, I know. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/17-reasons-youre-not-losing-weight/
Enjoy!
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Oct 13, 2011 - 09:22am PT
Archie,

The person who wrote this book, is just rephrasing what Barry Sears wrote 15 years ago in his landmark book, :"Enter the Zone".

I'm a little disappointed that Sears has never really received the credit he deserves for bringing your "Paleolithic Diet" and other important nutritional guidelines to the mass populations. Unfortunately, Sears' book and others afterwards. which echo his revolutionary ideas, are not common knowledge, in the population.

It is amusing that Madonna (the singer), was the 1st celebrity following Sears' guidelines. Look at her body!

( I wouldn't call your recommendations controversial. When Sears first wrote his book, 15 years ago: it was controversial. These concepts are widely accepted now, unfortunately only a small bit of the population practices it.)

Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Oct 13, 2011 - 09:34am PT
Google "wheat belly"
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Oct 13, 2011 - 09:50am PT
Georgia has been developing some somewhat controversial, but very compelling ads about childhood obesity you might be interested in.

http://www.stopchildhoodobesity.com/
MisterT

Trad climber
little gold truck
Oct 13, 2011 - 10:03am PT
In high school I dropped weight for wrestling. I was a middle sized guy with a huge appetite (well over 4,000 kcal a day at around 140). During the season I also grew a few inches. My metabolism really shut down and I was starving. My body craved calories and let me know. It was horrible and I was grouchy and mean all the time. After the season ended I gained about 25 lbs in 2 weeks. I was eating vast quantities of normal food for the most part. I could see my face getting fatter, but I was still ravenous. One day I wasn't hungry anymore and I dropped maybe 5 pounds and stabilized. It seems that the body has a set point that it wants to keep and below that you are ravenous and above that you just aren't hungry. It is pretty easy to stay at that set point. For some people it is higher than others. I suspect that many factors effect that point such as what and when you eat, exercise, genetics, and so on. Calories in vs. Calories out might be what it ultimately boils down to, but it is a very different willpower story when you are ravenous vs. when you aren't hungry.

Another time I tried to gain weight before a trip that I knew was going to be long and lean. I ate as much as I could - ice cream, brownies, etc. etc. I gained about 10 lbs fast, then I just wasn't hungry. I think I went up maybe 15 pounds total, then lost it all on the trip.

As I get older I can still pack away the food, but not the way I used to. Luckily for me my set point still seems to be at a reasonable level, because to always be in starvation food craving mode is a terrible thing that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I know plenty of people a lot bigger than I am that eat far far less. When the famine comes I'm screwed, meanwhile, pass the ice cream.
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Oct 13, 2011 - 10:10am PT
Mike,

That is great but what I find extremely frustrating is all the debatable ideas on nutrition. So a person wants to loose weight. Where do they turn?
Who to believe?

There are a ton of books out there on the subject.

Ya, I know that I'm pushing Sears' book, but that is because I am TOTALLY convinced he is spot on, and he backs up what he says by concrete results:
Olympic swim team etc.

Look into his credentials on Google. The American Diabetic Assoc. used to recommend Wheaties for breakfast! They finally have done an about face and totally endorse his program. I'm not a religious guy-in fact I'm an Agnostic, but I'm religious on Sears approach to nutrition.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 13, 2011 - 10:19am PT
Type 2 diabetes can be cured in weeks on some low fat diets, so I wouldn't go dumping on low fat plans. I know a couple of type 1 diabetics (this guy for one) that have greatly reduced their insulin requirements on a plan of nothing but raw fruit, veggies, and greens. It seems the plans that work are ones that drop junk, low nutrition, foods and that you are motivated enough to execute.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 13, 2011 - 11:39am PT
You're kidding right? Diabetes is one of the most preventable and treatable diseases. Many people have reversed their diabetes on the proper lifestyle choices, of which diet is a part of. It's all about education and motivation.
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Oct 13, 2011 - 11:42am PT
There is a marked difference between diet for weight loss and diet for athletic performance. An interesting thing is that virtually every diet works for weight loss, so there are disciples for every thing out there. The reason is that all the diets are reduced-calorie diets (south beach, zone, atkins, etc). All these diets are popularized by guys trying to make money selling books. The best research in dietetic needs really comes from the Harvard study, which basically advocates for a balanced diet with lots of fresh fruits and vegetables and a good source of protein.

Research shows that high carbs are probably not the best idea. But one-size doesn't fit all. For all activities a balance of carb/fat/protein is necessary. But for me I find that if I am skate-skiing a lot or focusing on aerobic activity I require a higher ratio of carbs. If I'm climbing a lot, which is more anaerobic, I tilt the ratio more towards more protein.

What's amazing to me is that we live in a society where we can access information almost anywhere on our phones but we don't know how to feed ourselves. Most people don't adjust their diets for their activities and can't read what their body needs or tells them at all.
discsinthesky

climber
Oct 13, 2011 - 11:43am PT
Many of us eat when we’re not truly, physically hungry. We often munch because the sight and smell of food is too tempting to resist – and it just tastes good. Other times we eat because we’re bored, sad, lonely or stressed. And sometimes well-meaning family members and friends pressure us to eat.

+1. From a biological standpoint, we do not NEED to eat nearly as often as we do. It has only been very recently in evolutionary history that food has become so plentiful for people of the developed world, and clearly our bodies aren't equipped to handle it.

So what am I suggesting? I am not promoting self-imposed starvation (though I think what the average American would call starvation is anything but). However, I do think that we can be trained to be OK with eating less. The whole concept of eating until "full" has baffled me from a dietary standpoint. This was likely never an option for our ancestors, or even today for people in the poorest nations. I think our bodies are equipped to deal with irregular consumption of food and societies idea of 3 regular meals a day (or many smaller meals or whatever the hottest diet of the day dictates) is unnecessary.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 13, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Hang in there Locker, things will work out if you just keep trying. There are many resources in Denver metro area. Go to health lectures, fairs, etc. Something you find will 'click' for you. I wouldn't rely completely on a dietician, most of which are not that good in my opinion.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Oct 13, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
However, I do think that we can be trained to be OK with eating less. The whole concept of eating until "full" has baffled me from a dietary standpoint. This was likely never an option for our ancestors, or even today for people in the poorest nations. I think our bodies are equipped to deal with irregular consumption of food and societies idea of 3 regular meals a day (or many smaller meals or whatever the hottest diet of the day dictates) is unnecessary.

You can be ok from a standpoint that you don't collapse and die. That doesn't mean that they didn't have constant hunger pains.

For me, I can ignore the hunger pains. But as I've gotten older, I have found that if I don't keep my calories above a certain level, the number of headaches and migrains (yes, they are very different) I get skyrockets. And unfortunately that calorie level does not appear compatible with a lean, healthy lifestyle.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 13, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
As an adult, I really don't feel sympathy for myself if I gain a little, I do know it's my own fault. But there is a lot for people to overcome by what they are surrounded by and I mostly feel for the youngsters, how can they have a chance with the brainwashing marketing they are subjected to? These companies spend huge amounts of money targeting kids/teens because it WORKS. It has far reaching effects that follow someone through the rest of their life. It's unethical, IMO, to market to young with unhealthy food.


Ethics and Advertising cannot appear in the same space time continuum....and vice versa
discsinthesky

climber
Oct 13, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
You can be ok from a standpoint that you don't collapse and die. That doesn't mean that they didn't have constant hunger pains.

For me, I can ignore the hunger pains. But as I've gotten older, I have found that if I don't keep my calories above a certain level, the number of headaches and migrains (yes, they are very different) I get skyrockets. And unfortunately that calorie level does not appear compatible with a lean, healthy lifestyle.

In that same time frame I think people's tolerance of pain/discomfort has gone way down too....

EDIT:

I don't mean to come off as somehow being above all this, I certainly am not. Just some things I have pondered.
discsinthesky

climber
Oct 13, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
I guess I was responding to hunger pains specifically. But think about exercise. The pains of exercise are enough to deter many from doing anything remotely active. Its a negative feedback cycle. As one gets less fit, it becomes increasingly more difficult/painful to become fit again, adding more inertia.

I think people naturally try to attain a set level of comfort. However, I think that level of comfort is largely based upon your realm of experience. For instance if you have never known a full stomach I doubt the hunger pain is quite as strong as someone who has eaten full meals their entire life. But then again, I think most things are mental...it's all about what you are familiar with and your expectations IMO.

EDIT:

Perhaps this is marginally related, but I have heard of a study that looked into the effect of natural birth vs. c-section on the baby. I guess they had found that natural birth promoted the release of certain hormones to allow the baby deal with the stress. That pathway was absent in the c-section baby, and they found later in life that the c-section babies were less capable of dealing with stress. Interesting stuff, haven't gotten around to finding the article yet though...
Archie Richardson

Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
Oct 13, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
SteveA - I have read Barry Sears and agree with most of his concepts - 40:30:30 and small frequent meals. And Atkins, for that matter. Where Atkins fell down was his use of low quality fat sources - pork rinds and the like. (BTW, Wikipedia has a good synopsis of the history of lo-carb diets, starting in 1797!!)
Mike - I also find it useful to adjust my carbohydrate intake according to the quantity and intensity of exercise. When couch-bound, I try to restrict carbs.

Hey, some of today's best climbers are on vegan and other hi-carb diets....I'm just an old dude trying to keep climbing a few more years and "primal" is what works best for me.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 13, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
Locker, I think I have mentioned this before and maybe you are already past this stuff, but if you haven't you should look through the work of Dr Weston Price, and read Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint (which is sort of a modern presentation of Price's ideas.)

Of course a lot of what these guys preach; get almost all your sugars and carbs from fruits and veggies, eating foods which are high in saturated fats, no processed foods, etc., flies in the face of what most Doc's and nutritionionists recommend, especially the fats part.

All I can say is that it works for me. My system knows what to do with fat. It burns it, at a steady rate. I remember when I first comitted to the primal diet I went through a period of a couple of weeks of very low energy. The hike to Suicide Rock felt like a mountaineering epic. Then my system figured it out. There are not going to be any more refined sugars and carbs, and I'd better start doing something with all this energy rich fat and protien that's here. For me the results have been excellent.

YMMV.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 13, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
I try to eat nutrient dense foods. Fish, poultry, nuts, meat for protein, iron, good fat etc. Fruits and veggies for vitamins, fiber.

I've cut down on my grains/starches. They can add a lot of calories without a lot of nutrients. But as mentioned if I have a long aerobic day coming up I'll add some because complex carbs are a great source of energy.

I've minimized refined sugars, bad fats, because they are empty calories. But I'll have a cheat meal once a week and enjoy some comfort foods.

So I do the cave man diet, because it just makes sense to me. I don't really notice much difference in energy or how I feel no matter what I eat.

Anecdotally I notice I get hungrier more often when I'm eating more. It's like my body gets used to higher amounts of calories and wants it all the time. When I'm eating less I can go longer in between meals without getting hungry. So it's a feedback loop that means the more you eat the more your body wants to eat, for me anyway.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Oct 13, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
Sure, I would agree that a lot of things you can get used to. If I go from a NorCal winter to 90 degree heat, I suffer. But by the end of summer, I don't feel like I am suffering walking around the central valley on a 98 degree day.

Unfortunately, all too often I have gotten used to walking around with a headache and/or migrain. But it doesn't matter how "used" to it I am. I can say without a doubt I am less irritable (and far more pleasant to be around and far more productive at work) when I don't have a headache.

Someone who has never known a full stomach might not be as distracted by hunger pains, I'll give you that. But somebody who is calorie short is going to have less energy and probably a weakened immune system. And as other have pointed out, the vast majority of kids are comming out of childhood with their bodies conditioned for a very unhealthy life style. As an adult, you don't get to the check the "never had full stomach" box.
Josh Nash

Social climber
riverbank ca
Oct 13, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
even weird al let himself go:
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 13, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
Nuts are kinda crappy food, since they are rarely raw and too easy to overdo it. And high saturated fat diets to treat diabetes? Wow. Price must be rolling in his grave to see people distorting his message like this. Diabetics are already at higher risk for heart attacks, pouring in saturated fat is crazy.

Replacing sat fat with polyunsaturated fat lowers heart desease risk http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100322211831.htm

Don't forget Vitamin D, Locker. Crucial for many important functions. Probably have to take a supplement considering where you live and winter approaching. Lots of good D3 sprays out now.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 13, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
Mono, Im not a doctor or pretending to be one. Just suggesting some interesting reading, not a treatment.

There is a pattern of diabetes in my family on both sides. Most of my life my blood sugar has been all over the place. I would be fine one minute, feel a bit of hunger the next and bonk totally, mentally and physically if I didn't eat right then. This affected my climbing from the standpoint that on one occasion I could climb really well and on another not so. Consistency has been a problem for me.

I would get two fasting blood tests in a row and the results would be at the opposite ends of the scale. My Doc said this was a serious warning sign.

A holistic person pointed me to the Weston Price research and Sisson's Primal Blueprint. I got on the program almost two years ago and my life is changed. No more spiky and crashing blood sugar. My last two blood panels have been optimal. My total cholesterol is on the high side but the various ratios of lipids and triglycerides are spot on (and the neurologist likes the hig overall levels.) I just had a total cardio workup and a carotid IMT - I am at no risk for cardiovascular disease despite having total cholesterol over 200.

I'm just sharing my own personal experience, and I really doubt that Dr Price is rolling in his grave.

edit: Depresses the heck out of me to see Weird Al lookin' like that. I worked on some of his stuff in the 80s. Thought he was quite cool.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 13, 2011 - 06:35pm PT
Yes, the link between cholesterol and heart disease is highly debated. But, the Harvard study does show a link between saturated fat and heart disease.

The Price institute also says limit fruits and vegies for your children and eat clay for cleansing.

http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_dietary_myths.htm
hb81

climber
Oct 13, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
But as I've gotten older, I have found that if I don't keep my calories above a certain level, the number of headaches and migrains (yes, they are very different) I get skyrockets.

Hmmm... have you been checked for diabetes?
Gal

Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
Oct 13, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
Ethics and Advertising cannot appear in the same space time continuum....and vice versa
Yes, agree.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 13, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
The Price institute also says limit fruits and vegies for your children and eat clay for cleansing.

Yes things like that are why Sisson's work, which has some roots in the Price work but also is based on current leading adge research, is my guide. Note that I say guide, not bible...

Still, studying Prices findings is informative. He was way ahead of his time. Dr. Fuhrman (whos work I have read) makes an aggressive attack there but misresents the Price Foundations positions. Fuhrman is of course at the opposite end of the spectrum, and is running a big sales operation too.

What Price did was to visit indiginous cultures around the world. He had a set of standards which included infant mortality, longevity, dental health and bone structure. Among cultures which he found healthy, he looked for the commonalities of their diets. He found 11. His book is revealing.

edit: So if I come up with a product which would benefit a lot of people it would be unethical to advertise it???
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 13, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
Price was a pioneer of his time. But there was much he didn't know about the people he was studying. As Furhman notes, he really did not have all the info about longevity and infant mortality rates,endemic diseases, and infection. One man couldn't possibly do such an effective study on so many cultures. Sally Fallon has locked what he said 70+ years ago, and ignored much research done since then to push her agenda. Since he was observationally based, I doubt he'd agree with Fallon today.

Fallon runs a big sales organization as well, by selling her book and advertising space to the meat and dairy companies and having 'conferences' and membership dues. Notice the 'platinum' and 'gold' sponsors on her site. If we go by whether people receive money for what they do, we won't get very far.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
Ok Slight retraction here. I do feel sympathy for many obese people. I often see one and feel so graced that I am not in that situation. there but for the grace of god go I. On the otherhand I do not buy many of the excuses and do believe that every day is in fact a new day and we can change when we really decide its the time for us to change..
I have my own personal demons, some I have licked and some not so much..

Food is some seriously addictive stuff. I will give it that.
susu

Trad climber
East Bay, CA
Oct 13, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
Haven't read the thread thoroughly yet but fell into Peter H.'s post and had to post right away to thank you for that share!
scuffy b

climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
Oct 13, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
Yes, Peter's and Matisse's posts are worth repeated readings.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 13, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
Yes I just went back and read them again. Great posts both.

Peters' reference to the amazing non fiction book "Black Like Me" by John Griffin really hit home for me. That was a formative book in my high school years. My stepfather was a freedom rider, and racial equality and the struggles against segregation were everyday subjects at our dinner table.

Good fortune with your knee job, Peter! In rehab, if you do not learn something new about your body every visit, demand more of your therapists. Make sure they know who you are and be clear about your goals. Right now you might not be in your real body, so it is up to you to make sure they know this.

Gal

Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
Oct 13, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
Good luck Peter-sounds like you have a good plan to get you through what has become a tough time.
Archie Richardson

Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
Oct 14, 2011 - 08:33am PT
Best of luck Peter.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 14, 2011 - 10:36am PT
Interestingly, Bonnie Kamps has just had her right knee replaced too!

She is doing really well, and should be driving next week even. I think that would be less than a month, then, for her return to our California traffic. Her pain is really backing off and she is getting more optimistic by the day. It was hard to sleep through the night; I think she was getting just a couple of hours between ice packs; also the pain killers she was able to take, weren't that effective. She reports being able to get 110 degrees of bend now while the rest of her 'classmates' in physical therapy can only get 90 and their operations were earlier than hers.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Oct 14, 2011 - 11:12am PT
The first 40 minutes of the new Zeitgeist movie explain some of the problems people face with how their body handles food. It talks about people during WW2, some of whom were starved while being pregnant. It goes on to show just how much that affected those who were the child in the womb.

It is very interesting to watch. I haven't watched the rest yet, so don't know about that.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1633613/ZEITGEIST-Moving-Forward-ot
scuffy b

climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
Oct 14, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
I would also like to thank Mike Friedrichs for his level-headed and informative posts.
matisse

climber
Oct 14, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
Peter, good luck with the knee-I am less than 10 years behind you on the knee replacement trail unless a miracle occurs. (I've been fortunate enough to have been able to maintain a normal body weight-my whining about being too fat to sport climb aside).

Everyone that I know that has had one replaced raves about how great it is, and how they should have done it ages ago. It, oddly enough, is not supposed to be as painful as an ACL reconstruction - if you have experience with that.
Sue
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
The difficulty with knee, and other joint replacement surgery, being that the replacements typically have 10 - 15 year lifespans, and aren't easily replaced. Which is why they prefer to wait until there's no other option, preferably when the patient is in her/his 60s or older, and so may not live long enough to need a replacement.

According to a cousin who is an orthopedic surgeon, anyway.

Still, aren't we lucky to have modern health care? There's an awful lot of stuff we do that we'd probably think twice (or more) about if it weren't for knowing that medicine will often do a good job patching up our broken bits.
matisse

climber
Oct 14, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
MH- Yup, that is a problem for us (relatively) young ones with elderly knees, and a second knee replacement doesn't do nearly as well as the first. I am still hopeful that we may see advances in medical (as opposed to surgical) treatment in the next decade.
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Oct 14, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
McDougal on diabetes.

Funny how today drugs actually make the problem worse. Classic error in focusing on small details, instead of looking at the whole picture.

Interesting how the massively fat people, who don't develop diabetes, get so huge because their insulin remains effective to continue to drive the fat into fat stores.
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Oct 14, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
Locker - add Alzheimer's disease to your list. It seems to have a connection to all the metabolic diseases.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Oct 14, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
Anders,

I understand the thinking of the orthopedic surgeons regarding waiting for a joint replacement, but I think it's kinda misguided, I also think the artificial joint makers should make the parts that wear out replaceable.

Anyhow, lets say I'm 50 and active and my knee is blown. The surgeon says, well you should wait 10 years to get the joint replaced. That seems kinda backwards, instead of having a good replacement knee in your 50's that will let you get out and enjoy life, you're supposed to hobble around in pain for 10 years, then you finally get the knee when you're older and less active.

Worse let I'm in my early 40's with my left knee starting to bother me more and more due to tearing the meniscus on two different occasions. I need to get it checked out sooner than later, hoping a replacement isn't in the future.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
Yes - oddly one of my other cousins (brother to the orthopedic surgeon), and his wife, work in England for a company that designs artificial joints. One of few in the world.

The real problem is that modern materials and designs don't quite measure up to what nature took billions of years to evolve.

It does point to the importance of looking after yourself, avoiding violent and high-impact sports particularly, and keeping fit.

Presumably surgeons vary, and surely there are some who will operate on younger and more active patients, even if they're not completely crippled, taking the trade off of improved quality of life when younger for a possible lower-quality re-replaced joint when older. And perhaps in the meantime technology will improve, for first or second joint replacements - there are lots of yuppies in developed who'll be crying for it.
DanaB

climber
CT
Oct 14, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
Go to the National Library of Medicine. There are quite a few obesity research journals open for browsing. You'll get a clear of idea of the role of genetics in obesity.
Messages 1 - 110 of total 110 in this topic
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta