Old Folks: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bolt

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 26, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
Superpin, Super Chicken, retro-bolting, etc., etc...

From what I've seen, it seems like few climbers stay true to their roots as they age - how many really think that decision through versus simply tossing their own history and traditions to the wind with all the thought of emptying an ashtray out a car window? (yes, son, cars had ashtrays before USB ports and people used to litter with abandon)

Is the decision either way a case of convenience, adapt-or-die, obdurate clinging to the past, selfishness, trying to stay popular with the kids, unwillingness to tarnish one's own past, unwillingness to accept one's limitations, bending with time, or being wanting things to remain within reach as we age?
apogee

climber
Sep 26, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
"From what I've seen, it seems like few climbers stay true to their roots as they age..."

Interesting thought.

That's true of a lot of aspects of aging...take politics, for example...some people seem to start out fairly open minded and gradually become more resistant to change over the years. For others, exactly the opposite occurs.

This shift in one's world view and values plays out in many ways- climbing is just one example. I don't think there's one predominant trend.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
Sep 26, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
Most get out of shape and inevitably somewhat lazy as they age. It take a ton or work and lots of pain to stay at the top of your game and most quit playing at some point. I don't think there is anything wrong but it kind of bothers me to see so many give up like that. Once that happens then they start to reconcile other changes to accomodate their new reality. Who am I to say that it is wrong, all I know is that I don't want to go that way!
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Sep 26, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
"I don't see enough negative choices there..."

Hahahaha, he should have just posted that cut/paste of how gyms ruined climbing and been done with it.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
There are negatives listed there for both sides of the equation...
apogee

climber
Sep 26, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
"Once that happens then they start to reconcile other changes to accomodate their new reality."

Some would say that as they have gained more life experience, they've come to realize that what they used to uphold as a principled stand was really fairly overly-simplistic and unrealistically dogmatic.

Edit for Ron: Though I drew a parallel with politics, I'm trying to point out a more general shift that occurs in the aging process that affects one's view of many things.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
Sep 26, 2011 - 04:05pm PT
Yeah, the ability to pull is no longer important. I can see how that shift happens, it is the 'why is happens' that I have the most problems with.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
Some would say that as they have gained more life experience, they've come to realize that what they used to uphold as a principled stand was really fairly overly-simplistic and unrealistically dogmatic.

A fair opinion. Though I've never considered climbing or aging so complicated as to require any particular retinking of my early beliefs around the former.
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 26, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
As we age, we tend to have a broader perspective of the world and the importance of stuff in general. Things that once seemed like critical issues take their place as another speck of dust in the wind.

That thread about Marshall South has an apt quote that I'll paste in here in a minute...
He would not compromise. And that is fatal in a civilization where life is a never-ending compromise between the things we would like to do and the obligations imposed by the social and economic organization of which we are a part.

How to balance purist ideals with pragmatic considerations? Maybe this is the art of living.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Sep 26, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Sep 26, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
There are a few like Bob Kamps who seemed to remain in good shape and true to their roots (and routes) until they day they die. Fred Becky is another one who has really hung in there.

Trying to really stay in shape? There are so many things that can go wrong, and sometimes ones genes bring things beyond one's control.

So it takes both the willingness, which many of us don't have, plus the right genetic makeup.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Sep 26, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
OK, a test for you old folks at the campfire: how many 20 year-olds would you go to for advice? (other than how to use your smart phone)

OK, now that that is settled, can we safely assume that 20 year olds don't know squat? We were all that age once and we thought we knew it all. Then as we aged we realized that there was so much we didn't know.

Wise people tend to be old people- it's just how it works. The older we get, the more experience we have to draw from- more life lessons learned. Hell, I've learned more in 2 years of raising a child than in 25 years of going up and down stoopid rocks.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
The older we get, the more experience we have to draw from- more life lessons learned. Hell, I've learned more in 2 years of raising a child than in 25 years of going up and down stoopid rocks.

And so what did you learn relative to climbing?
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Sep 26, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
If you place a bolt, for any reason, do not take pictures.



flyingkiwi1

Trad climber
Seattle WA
Sep 26, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
Cragnshag wrote:
Hell, I've learned more in 2 years of raising a child than in 25 years of going up and down stoopid rocks.

healyje replied:

And so what did you learn relative to climbing?

Agreeing with cragnshag, responding for myself:

That above all (pun intended), I climb for the sharpened focus and perspective climbing promotes in my mind, body and soul. That that focus and perspective is worth climbing for, but that it's not worth dying for - not anymore. And that there are other ways to get it.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Sep 26, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
Cragnshag nailed it pretty well. You don't have kids, do you Joe? Death and dismemberment while climbing is a lot less romantic once you think you might live past 30, and certainly once you have children who rely on you. No big deal though, there's plenty of risk out there for the asking, and I doubt a couple three bolts on a 5.7 third pitch in Tuolumne is going to deplete the resource, especially if you never climb down there anyway. The world still has a lot more adventure than it has takers, hell, even just a slice of the world like Yosemite.
Nick

climber
portland, Oregon
Sep 26, 2011 - 10:03pm PT
Over the years, a few close calls and knowledge of others who have not been so lucky have helped me I realize that we have only so many empty chambers in the gun of life. I choose to spin the chamber and pull the trigger very selectively these days.

There is no such thing as luck, only uncontrolled variables.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 26, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
the bolt on superpin was 34 yrs old....nuff said.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Sep 26, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
And so what did you learn relative to climbing?

I've learned a bit about unconditional love, sacrifice, teamwork, and the consequences of my actions. These things I've learned climbing too, but somehow it was diluted with the business of life in a way. I see much more clearly now (is that a song...?)

Plenty of old folks out there who have walked the on the edge. They have earned the right to change their mind about something so personel as an FA. - No need minimize them for that.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
Sep 27, 2011 - 12:42am PT
Taking silly risks because you have too much testosterone and giving up on adventure because you are too lazy to stay in shape are not the same at all. And rationalizing either is just fooling yourself.
apogee

climber
Sep 27, 2011 - 12:51am PT
I really wanted to engage thoughtfully in this thread, but the heavenly image of Scarlett has completely distracted me.
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Sep 27, 2011 - 01:44am PT
I think a lot of people are missing Rick A's point about adding bolts to Super Chicken. This wasn't a case of Rick not being able to stop and drill. It was the case of him climbing so far below his max level and the desire to get off the climb that he just didn't stop to place a few bolts. If you remember his story, he didn't even place any bolts for an anchor.

It's one thing to go back on a route that you were totally wigged out on and add a few bolts. In the case of Super Chicken it was just laziness and impatience that kepts bolts from being put in.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2011 - 05:29am PT
flyingkiwi1: That that focus and perspective is worth climbing for, but that it's not worth dying for - not anymore. And that there are other ways to get it.

So what does that boil down to for you - that your climbing should be safe or that climbing should be safe?

Off White: Cragnshag nailed it pretty well. You don't have kids, do you Joe? Death and dismemberment while climbing is a lot less romantic once you think you might live past 30, and certainly once you have children who rely on you.

Actually, at 59 I've got a daughter about to crank out her senior year at UW/Seattle. And "death and dismemberment" while climbing has never been "romantic" for me so, young or old, I've always taken risk management seriously and that means sometimes I back off of things, sometimes I'm on R or even (rarely) X rated FA territory depending on what I'm trying to accomplish, but always with a keen eye on the dial, a clear understanding of what I'm doing, the risks I'm assuming, and why. When I'm no longer prepared to manage such things, I'll back off of that level of risks, but I don't anticipate my climbing changing otherwise.

cragnshag: Plenty of old folks out there who have walked the on the edge. They have earned the right to change their mind about something so personel as an FA. - No need minimize them for that.

I'm not minimizing anyone for choices they make for themselves - I'm way more interested in when such folks remain active climbers with a different risk management profile and how that influences the broader (younger) culture relative to the expectation of 'safe climbing'.

G_Gnome: Taking silly risks because you have too much testosterone and giving up on adventure because you are too lazy to stay in shape are not the same at all. And rationalizing either is just fooling yourself.

I agree for the most part, but risk perception in humans is a funny business let alone in climbing. And I have to say that, whether BITD or today, I've always been utterly fascinated by the difference between 'testosterone' and reasoned risk-taking - I've always felt each is tied to fairly identifiable personalities though I have been fooled by a few folks in that regard. I'd also comment that more of the risks I see these days are of the unintended and uniformed variety than overt, clear-eyed risk-taking.

From where I sit the question has fast been becoming whether [the majority of] climbing should be 'safe' from a subjective or objective perspective. By that I mean making the climbs 'safe' rather than the climbers. And what role and influence do we elders play in such a transition?

Is the future of climbing sanitizing it of risk for the vast majority of climbers while concentrating it into a few 'heroic' [commercial] few? You could claim that's the way it's always been, but I would claim the scales and ratios are so incredibly different today that climbing overall is taking on a risk distribution that's rapidly becoming indistinguishable from traditional sports.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
SoCal
Sep 27, 2011 - 07:57am PT
(good writing in this thread so far!)

Sometimes a bolt and hanger is a useful safety device.

Sometimes it is a human form of cat spray.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Sep 27, 2011 - 08:20am PT
Boy psychology: the odds are with me.

Grown men: Eventually the odds are going to catch up with me.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 27, 2011 - 09:38am PT
Joe wrote: Is the future of climbing sanitizing it of risk for the vast majority of climbers while concentrating it into a few 'heroic' [commercial] few? You could claim that's the way it's always been, but I would claim the scales and ratios are so incredibly different today that climbing overall is taking on a risk distribution that's rapidly becoming indistinguishable from traditional sports.


Back in the late 60's and early 70's you only did what was available (lead ground up) or you top roped. Sport climbing changed the game. Change is good.
kpinwalla2

Social climber
WA
Sep 27, 2011 - 10:57am PT
I started climbing in the Red River Gorge in the mid-70's. There was one bolt in the whole place, protecting the "crux" 5.2 move in the wide chimney that was the easiest route on Tower Rock. That was the first bolt that I encountered. I remember sometime in the late 70's - early 80's making the comment to my climbing partner that "if we rappelled down some of these cool overhanging pocketed faces and placed some bolts like the one on Tower Rock, we could lead them and it would be really cool. Of course the idea was then considered blasphemous (and obviously still is to some folks). When Porter Jarrard came up to KY from NC, he saw the same potential, but decided to act on it - and the rest is history. I'm 52 and never had a problem with bolts, and decided to start bolting routes at City of Rocks in the late 80's when the top-flight climbers began putting up 5.8's with bolts 30 ft. apart or more. If you can't add bolts to an existing route, and I believe you shouldn't without permission, that effectively removes these fine lines from consideration by recreational climbers - who don't have either the time or desire to develop the confidence required to climb them. I was whining about how the style of the FA basically robbed these lines from the vast majority of climbers, when someone told me something like "quit whining and put up your own routes in your own style" - and the rest is history. My first route at the City saw more ascents in it's first year than those run-outs see in 10. There are many different yardsticks for measuring the success or quality of a route. One is what it says about the "balls" of the first ascentionists, but another is how often it is climbed. The old style routes at the city are still there in their original condition should anyone desire to "flex their head". People climb for many different reasons. For some folks, clipping a bolt every 6-8 feet is as much risk as they desire. Climb, and let climb, I say. Over the years, the negative comments from the elitists about my "over-bolted gumby routes" has been drowned out by a flood of appreciation by recreational climbers. The older I get, the easier it is to just tune out the elitists. I've also found that as I've gotten older, fatter, weaker, and accumulated more responsibilities, I have even more appreciation for those "over-bolted gumby routes" and more than once I've had an aging hard-man tell me how they can now really appreciate my routes.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Sep 27, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
Actually, at 59 I've got a daughter about to crank out her senior year at UW/Seattle. And "death and dismemberment" while climbing has never been "romantic" for me so, young or old, I've always taken risk management seriously and that means sometimes I back off of things, sometimes I'm on R or even (rarely) X rated FA territory depending on what I'm trying to accomplish, but always with a keen eye on the dial, a clear understanding of what I'm doing, the risks I'm assuming, and why. When I'm no longer prepared to manage such things, I'll back off of that level of risks, but I don't anticipate my climbing changing otherwise.

Congratulations to your daughter, that's really great.

I know you don't really do alpine climbing, though one can argue that new routes on Beacon Rock share certain potentially loose rock and vegetation issues, so I think this next bit is relevant. Relatively recent deaths by folks like Craig Leubben and Dallas Kloke on moderate routes and places I've been are suggesting to me that the stories I've always told myself about managing risk and making choices are perhaps a little more fictional than I'd imagined, as much self delusion as clear eyed assessment. I think my common post climbing declaration, "Hey, we cheated death again" is perhaps a little less ironic than I thought.

I don't think I'm any less true to my roots, I've always been cautious and injury averse. Getting older hasn't changed my goals or style, but the greater experience has influenced my understanding of where risk lies. Big icy north faces I once coveted are no longer on my tick list, but that's not because I'm tossing my history and tradition out the window, its that more experience informs my calculation. Physical changes in strength and condition have always been part of the equation too, so getting a different result may be also a product of that, not an abdication of history and tradition.

We're different people, and your level of acceptable risk may well be higher than mine, but you might consider that your clear understanding of what you're doing could be much less rational than you tell yourself it is. In any case though, we're none of us in position to be dictating to others what risk they must accept, so all the best to you in your climbing.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Sep 27, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
I started climbing in the Red River Gorge in the mid-70's. There was one bolt in the whole place, protecting the "crux" 5.2 move in the wide chimney that was the easiest route on Tower Rock. That was the first bolt that I encountered. I remember sometime in the late 70's - early 80's making the comment to my climbing partner that "if we rappelled down some of these cool overhanging pocketed faces and placed some bolts like the one on Tower Rock, we could lead them and it would be really cool. Of course the idea was then considered blasphemous (and obviously still is to some folks). When Porter Jarrard came up to KY from NC, he saw the same potential, but decided to act on it - and the rest is history. I'm 52 and never had a problem with bolts, and decided to start bolting routes at City of Rocks in the late 80's when the top-flight climbers began putting up 5.8's with bolts 30 ft. apart or more. If you can't add bolts to an existing route, and I believe you shouldn't without permission, that effectively removes these fine lines from consideration by recreational climbers - who don't have either the time or desire to develop the confidence required to climb them. I was whining about how the style of the FA basically robbed these lines from the vast majority of climbers, when someone told me something like "quit whining and put up your own routes in your own style" - and the rest is history. My first route at the City saw more ascents in it's first year than those run-outs see in 10. There are many different yardsticks for measuring the success or quality of a route. One is what it says about the "balls" of the first ascentionists, but another is how often it is climbed. The old style routes at the city are still there in their original condition should anyone desire to "flex their head". People climb for many different reasons. For some folks, clipping a bolt every 6-8 feet is as much risk as they desire. Climb, and let climb, I say. Over the years, the negative comments from the elitists about my "over-bolted gumby routes" has been drowned out by a flood of appreciation by recreational climbers. The older I get, the easier it is to just tune out the elitists. I've also found that as I've gotten older, fatter, weaker, and accumulated more responsibilities, I have even more appreciation for those "over-bolted gumby routes" and more than once I've had an aging hard-man tell me how they can now really appreciate my routes.

Thanks, this is refreshing to read.

Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 27, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
Most get out of shape and inevitably somewhat lazy as they age. It take a ton or work and lots of pain to stay at the top of your game and most quit playing at some point. I don't think there is anything wrong but it kind of bothers me to see so many give up like that. Once that happens then they start to reconcile other changes to accomodate their new reality. Who am I to say that it is wrong, all I know is that I don't want to go that way!

I guess we should read this one twice as G_Gnome cruised the B-Y in the meadows last summer at age 102.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Sep 27, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
Kevin, I've been both a detractor and a fan over the years, but there's no denying the popularity of your routes. I think that route on the Wart did change a lot of folks perceptions over the years, but I was horrified by a pair of open cold shuts for an anchor at a semi-hanging belay on Cruel Shoes - those dang things flexed anytime anyone moved around. Thanks for providing all that free information on Spring Mountain too, I like that place.
kpinwalla2

Social climber
WA
Sep 27, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
Sorry about those shuts. That was during a phase when I was poor and they were considered acceptable (by some). They were upgraded long ago. One nice thing about getting older is I'm smarter (at least I think I am), more experienced, and not so poor anymore. Glad you've enjoyed Spring Mtn. - no open shuts up there...
flyingkiwi1

Trad climber
Seattle WA
Sep 27, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
Paraphrasing (not direct quotes):
Cragnshag: I've learned more from fatherhood than I have from climbing.
Joe: Like what?
Ian: Focus and perspective are worth climbing but not dying for...
Joe: You mean your climbing should be safe or all climbing should be safe?
Definitely the former. I would like to think that there's enough rock out there for any one of us to be able to seek and subsume ourselves in climbing at our preferred level of risk.

Having said that, I'd be very sad if someone bolted, say, Sloe Children at Index.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Sep 27, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
Shout out to Kevin! Just did Raindance at the City again (had been years) with a couple of newer climbers. Really appreciated it. Great line, but, you've always had an eye for the goods.

Pogue Ethics!

Cheers!
bergbryce

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Sep 27, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
PKinwalla is Kevin Pogue??

Your routes rock, thanks.
G_Gnome

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
Sep 27, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
I would hate to see 'Climbing made safe', besides which I just don't see how it is possible given the number of ways people can come up with the screw up even the best practices. The most powerful experiences I have had climbing generally involved getting in over my head. Occassionally these were unintended and I feel lucky to have got thru them all alive, but usually they were approached head on. Without the challenge of the long runout, or the death runout for that matter, I would not have gained what I have from climbing. If you never find your limits how do you know how hard you can push. But then maybe most people never want to find this out.
kpinwalla2

Social climber
WA
Sep 27, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
Hey there Brian Cabe - and thanks for "outing" me ;-).... Wish I could get myself to the City this fall to see the aspens turn - but it's not looking like that's going to happen. That grove below Rain Dance is usually spectacular.

Some people want to push their limits, and some don't, and some folks' are pushing limits that are lower than others' - there's room for everybody. I remember that someone on this forum (was it Dingus?) once wrote "I climb as hard as anyone on Earth, I just do it on easier routes". I've always thought that neatly summed up why the bolts on 5.7 "sport" routes can (and in my opinion should) be spaced the same (or even closer) as they are on the 5.12's...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
Off White: I know you don't really do alpine climbing...Relatively recent deaths by folks like Craig Leubben and Dallas Kloke on moderate [alpine] routes...

I don't do alpine / mountains and that was a decision based on a combination of how I assess risk and what kind of activities I like to take part in.

From my perspective the risk in rock climbing is 95+% subjective - it's mostly about your skill and judgment with a minimum of gambling with objective risks. Mountains turn that on it's head and, [IMHO] regardless of skill and judgment level, is straight up gambling with a plethora of objective risks. It's the difference between a game of chess and one of chance. And from what I've seen over the years in alpine, with more experience and better the skills most real players keep upping the ante on the gambles they're willing to entertain; that the risk-reward cycle often ends up more chemically driven over time.

In the end, I am not a gambler; I deal with highly-calculated risks based almost entirely on my skills and capabilities rather than what the entire medium may or may not do while I'm climbing. I like knowing whatever I manage to pull off isn't a matter of 'luck' (even if there is skill and judgment in guessing the odds). Overall, I worry way, way more about my risk profile and exposure descending than I do on lead during an R/X FA attempt.

And I do look at rock climbing from a perspective of risk profiles adopted by both individuals and the entire demographic and how each has and is changing over time. Maybe those can be summed up as:

 Safe climbers vs. safe climbing

 'Recreational Climbing' (close to where we live... ) vs. 'Adventure Climbing' (it's still out there [somewhere]...)

 Level of risk management skills; i.e. balls vs. fun

 Internal validation (don't care if anyone else climbs it) vs. external validation (my routes are popular).
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Sep 27, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
I've always thought that neatly summed up why the bolts on 5.7 "sport" routes can (and in my opinion should) be spaced the same (or even closer) as they are on the 5.12's...

I grew up steeped on the whole less is best mantra when it came to fixed pro. However, when you decide to bolt a route on rappel, my expectation is that it is well protected whether it be 5.7 or 5.12 so I wholeheartedly agree with you. To me, it does not matter how difficult the route is but it matters whether you start the route ground-up or top down. In my opinion when you start from the top you have an obligation to try and make it safe because the rules are now different. Different rules for different fools.

By the way, I too have enjoyed your routes at Spring Mountain and appreciate you putting the info out there for others. That is a cool little place. And yes, there was one of your routes that I thought "man that thing was overbolted". But I got over it and had fun to boot. (Everyone has an opinion....) Frankly, I am inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the FA party. Afterall, they were the ones who put the work in. Thanks again.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 27, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
Many of us stay in shape but we gain wisdom. That does not mean that we give up on risk. Heck I still do the occasional naked free solo and I lead steep ice but I do have a much different opinion of bolts than I did when I was 20yrs stupid.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Sep 27, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
Joe, I really hope you've got it that dialed with calculation skills far exceeding my own. I hope to never attend your memorial service, and though frankly I expect you to go before I do, I trust you'll attend mine and nod your head sagely if I precede you.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 03:56am PT
Off, I'm positively honored by the invitation and will be sure to attend whenever that sad day comes! I have strict instructions that there be a party with a band, hard liquor, and good food when I go - you're definitely invited in the highly unlikely event of a reversal of our fortunes.

My calculation skills are fine, I worry far more about a slip-up when I'm not actually moving over the stone leading as then I don't have to be concerned about the 'cadet' factor because I'm focused. I also like to think the amount of roped-soloing I do and have done over the years forces me to monitor myself a bit more in that regard, though.

But in thirty seven years I know of very few old guys who've died while leading, but it seems like I know of far too many who died somewhere between their home and the sharp end or during the return trip.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 04:03am PT
Bob D'A: Change is good.

Without reprising our all-too-clearly-overstated opinions of the past, about all I'd grant you on the point is 'change is change' - and that "good" is still a matter of opinion with regard to the bullets I listed before:

 Safe climbers vs. safe climbing

 'Recreational Climbing' (close to where we live... ) vs. 'Adventure Climbing' (it's still out there [somewhere]...)

 Level of risk management skills; i.e. balls vs. fun

 Internal validation (don't care if anyone else climbs it) vs. external validation (my routes are popular).

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 28, 2011 - 06:29am PT
What about selfish validation?
I don't care if anyone else climbs it as long as a I get my name in the book for an unrepeated scare fest VS I want to put up a climb that will be fun for a lot of people.

No ammount of argueing to the contrary will convince me that many of the scare fests out there were not done with pride of creating a scarefest and pride in the reporting of that scarefest. That was how you won the prize BINTD and humans like to win.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 28, 2011 - 06:38am PT
If you truely do not care about anyone other than yourself when doing an FA then why not allow your poorly bolted scare fest to be fixed once you are done with it? You got your jollys and did not give a hoot about anyone else who followed. You are now done with your route so why not just let it be retroed? The answer is pride. They want that legacy. They want to own that piece of rock for eternity.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Sep 28, 2011 - 08:24am PT
tradsmanclimbs,

it seems the climbing literature, like guidebooks with descriptions of runouts, preserves the historical facts of these legacy/pride climbs. Apparently for some of these route makers just the history on paper and cyberspace is not enough, they want a monument. Do the locals owe them a monument?

As I have said before, if Henry had not infringed on the "project ownership" of three locals I suspect there would have been a bolt at this same high place and we would not have this discussion.

Henry told me over the phone prior to the Superpin climb that I must bring my bolt kit when he attempted this climb. Having no bolt kit seemed so ironic that I ask him what was the matter with his. He showed me a quite unused bolt driver(no mushroomed head) and a kit that contained a #14 bit but studs that required a #12 bit. I did not ask anymore but was not very assured of Henry's bolting skills, yet I thought this show could be a joke. But indeed he did want my bolt kit present when the lead began. After the climb Herny alluded that he had little bolt placing experience.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 28, 2011 - 09:59am PT
Joe...you remind me of an old republican when it come to climbing. Closed mind and my way or the highway.


Progressive thinking has always change climbing...not regressive.


Change is good...you just don't like the change.
SeaClimb

climber
Sep 28, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
Joseph says: "...My calculation skills are fine, I worry far more about a slip-up when I'm not actually moving over the stone leading as then I don't have to be concerned about the 'cadet' factor because I'm focused. I also like to think the amount of roped-soloing I do and have done over the years forces me to monitor myself a bit more in that regard, though..."

Hmmmm...

One interview of Bachar from the nineties had him saying he had roughly a one in a million chance of falling while soloing because he was that in control (and i believe(d) him)....

Years later, there was an article about him where he thought he'd climbed over a million vertical feet. I guess one could say that the odds are what they are and he played out the statistical side of it and left behind family and friends that cared about him and mourn his departure daily (I cried when i read that post from his son, still tears me up pretty bad as a dad myself). Maybe you should revisit your "calculating" capabilities as i'm pretty sure Bachar's got you beat in spades.

That being said, we all are going to die and there are myriad ways of saying adios...

Peace and be safe,
Rudy
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
tradmanclimbs: What about selfish validation? I don't care if anyone else climbs it as long as a I get my name in the book for an unrepeated scare fest VS I want to put up a climb that will be fun for a lot of people.

No ammount of argueing to the contrary will convince me that many of the scare fests out there were not done with pride of creating a scarefest and pride in the reporting of that scarefest. That was how you won the prize BINTD and humans like to win.

Possibly, but in general I don't buy it. As the author of the main PDX guide was doing his latest edition I specifically asked him to leave all my routes out of it. I haven't seen it so I don't know whether he honored that request or not.

tradmanclimbs: If you truly do not care about anyone other than yourself when doing an FA then why not allow your poorly bolted scare fest to be fixed once you are done with it? You got your jollys and did not give a hoot about anyone else who followed. You are now done with your route so why not just let it be retroed? The answer is pride. They want that legacy. They want to own that piece of rock for eternity. [Dingus McGee's assertion as well...]

Ha, that's sure a good one. But it does pretty much sum up a lot of the mentality I see around here - next, next, next. I like my routes and tend to repeat most of them a couple of times a year and each of them helps me know where I'm at on the journey getting back into shape. Given that, I don't want them butchered or dumbed down. Don't want to climb them as they were put up? Fine, then don't.

G_Gnome: If you never find your limits how do you know how hard you can push. But then maybe most people never want to find this out.

I'd say there are skill, physical, mental, emotional, creative, and judgment limits involved with climbing and most folks are only interested in one or two of them.

SeaClimb: Maybe you should revisit your "calculating" capabilities as i'm pretty sure Bachar's got you beat in spades.

He may have had me beat in spades on a lot of fronts but, unfortunately, and in hindsight, risk management wasn't one of them. I suspect neither my identity nor emotions are as dependent on climbing in that respect.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
Joe...you remind me of an old republican when it come to climbing. Closed mind and my way or the highway. Progressive thinking has always change climbing...not regressive. Change is good...you just don't like the change.

And you remind me of a new republican, extracting gain from more and more resources without a regard or thought of broader consequences. "Progress" is again in eye of the beholder. Lots of people think fast food is 'progress' as do folks who mine ever increasing tons of earth for vanishingly small amounts of gold. It's all a matter of perspective.

I like seeing advances in climbing, but I'm not blind to how they are derived from what demographic and what the effect of that demographic is on both climbing and rock.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 28, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
this from a previous thread that joe posted on....

One recent route which I've repeated twice has once pitch with a crux consisting of a structure of three interconnected loose flakes where you have to 'set' the two flakes on the right to lock or anchor the one on the left into place and then use it exclusively to pull the crux. The pro below it is ok, but it's an overhanging section above a slab and so it has an R rating for both the potential for pulling the three flakes down on yourself and for the possibility of a slab fall if you and you belayer aren't paying real good attention to the slack situation.

The FA I've currently been working on has a p3 that traverses a [rare] band of Smith-like tuft, but in the form of blocks about the size of cars several of which are loose. That 70' lower section of the pitch takes you to the base of a large roof which is of more normal, good stone, but is comprised of very technical moves and sports poor protection until you are established under the roof. It also trends far to the right over the void such that getting back to the belay can be quite challenging. It's rated R for that combination of reasons.


no offense....but the routes you are describing sound like piles of crap. have it it, i am sure they are detined to be classics....not.

by the way, is beacon the only place you climb at it anyway? if one actually gets out and travels its amazing how your eyes get opened up.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 28, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
Joe..your ego is getting the best of you...Leave "my" routes out of guidebook. Do you own the land??


Joe wrote: I'd say there are skill, physical, mental, emotional, creative, and judgment limits involved with climbing and most folks are only interested in one or two of them.


So what and why does that eat away at you?

Joe wrote: Ha, that's sure a good one. But it does pretty much sum up a lot of the mentality I see around here - next, next, next. I like my routes and tend to repeat most of them a couple of times a year and each of them helps me know where I'm at on the getting journey back into shape. Given that, I don't want them butchered or dumbed down. Don't want to climb them as they were put up? Fine, then don't.


No worry there...choss piles tend to not get repeated.


Joe wrote: And you remind me of a new republican, extracting gain from more and more resources without a regard or thought of broader consequences.

Just what am I taking??? You have no idea what you are talking about.


mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Sep 28, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
Dingus, he should have put a red tag on the first crystal.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Sep 28, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
mike m,

this was before the day of sport climbing and red tags. As I remember the scene, all three of these (local)folks ask me if I was working on Superpin.

The dirtiest play back then was to ask a person what he was working on and then go do it.

My reply soon became, "Do you want to know my achievements or my aspirations". If they wanted to know my aspirations I had a potpouri for them. Henry got to experience some of my potpouri offerings. No prizes were awarded.

I will take that back about prizes awarded. I always got the backoff bootie that Henry left.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
Bob D'A: Joe..your ego is getting the best of you...Leave "my" routes out of guidebook. Do you own the land??

Nope, just not into guidebooks and didn't want my routes included. Quite quite the opposite of the motivational picture tradmanclimbs was asserting given two of the routes are not PG-friendly.

Bob D'A: So what and why does that eat away at you?

Due to the impact of the demographic that perception of climbing has spawned.

Bob D'A: Just what am I taking??? You have no idea what you are talking about.

Not you personally, but feeding the demographic that produces our current advances.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
Hawkeye: no offense....but the routes you are describing sound like piles of crap. have it it, i am sure they are destined to be classics....not.

None taken, Beacon is what it is and both of those routes are actually fabulous - you just have to be aware of what you're doing and tread lightly over a spot or two. I've repeated the first five times now and the second is a work in progress with the UPS truck-sized block staying over five leads across it to-date.

Hawkeye: by the way, is beacon the only place you climb at it anyway? if one actually gets out and travels its amazing how your eyes get opened up.

I've climbed all over so yeah, I know what's out there. When I get tired of Beacon I usually go to Red Rock, SoIll, Eldo, or the Gunks which happens more infrequently than I would like.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
stinkeye: Sorry, I am a little slow... but now I get it. This thread isn't about other people and their stance on bolts. Its another thread about how pure and rad your ethics are, and how everyone else sold out or sucks; or in other words, the Heal-ego.

Not at all, plenty of people here on ST on both sides of the equation. But when people inquire or challenge me related on specifics of my climbing I answer in that context. The point of the thread was about older folks, their choices around their ethics as they've aged, and the influence of those choices on the wider demographic over time.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Sep 28, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Some people get old, crochety and nasty as they age, some mellow out, some seem to hold onto whatever it was that drove them since day one. It has nothing to do with whether or not one is a climber.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
Some people get old, crochety and nasty as they age, some mellow out...

So those are the choices? Good to know, I've always wondered...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 28, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
Joe wrote: Nope, just not into guidebooks and didn't want my routes included. Quite quite the opposite of the motivational picture tradmanclimbs was asserting given two of the routes are not PG-friendly.


They are not your routes...they are public land. I done over 1,800 FA's and I don't own one of those routes.


Joe wrote: Due to the impact of the demographic that perception of climbing has spawned.

What impact and where? Please compare with other outdoor sports (hiking, biking, mountain biking, skiing etc..) please.

Joe wrote: I've climbed all over so yeah, I know what's out there. When I get tired of Beacon I usually go to Red Rock, SoIll, Eldo, or the Gunks which happens more infrequently than I would like.


How much time at sport areas?? Funny...I climbed most of the hard routes in the Gunks and Eldo in the late 70's and early 80's...most people top roped them first now...really doesn't bother me in the least...only when they say they are trad climbing.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 01:59am PT
war: ...these old fart protecting their age old runout should be seen for what they are...

Can't speak to other people's lines, but my routes of mentioned in this thread aren't "age old" - they were all put up within the last couple of years or in the case of one, is still a work in progress.

Bob D'A: They are not your routes...they are public land. I done over 1,800 FA's and I don't own one of those routes.

I suppose a perusal of one of your guidebooks wouldn't find your name attached to them either...

Bob D'A: What impact and where? Please compare with other outdoor sports (hiking, biking, mountain biking, skiing etc..) please.

Bolts, crowds, accidents, access issues, trash, and closures. Bob, we simply have differing perspectives and opinions - nothing new there and I don't think we're going to agree here either.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 29, 2011 - 06:27am PT
Bob, Funny you should bring this up. I always assumed that Joe was a hard core wingnut Republican from the way that he writes about climbing.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 07:16am PT
Hmmm, 'ownership' of a route in climbing? Let's see, I suppose that depends on your perspective and what 'my route' means in climbing when someone says it.

In the context of this discussion it obviously brings up the 'rights' of FAs and guidebook 'authors'. I don't and never had much use for, or a high opinion of, guidebooks other than for big walls, basically because outside of the existence of a climb, most tell you what you can figure out for yourself (rating, gear, pro) and nothing about what you can't (the story of the FA). That, and people typically become dependent on them and usually fail to develop an eye of their own do to it.

Bottom line for me is if I put the route up and don't want it published, as the FA I think that ought to be respected. You may have a different opinion, cool. I just don't happen to share it, and I'm completely ok with that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 07:29am PT
Talking about them and publishing them are different things, few folks are likely to get on them either way. And, OMG, an unpublished route - now there's a major crime (no doubt further compounding the offense of not climbing for other people).
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 07:40am PT
Common courtesy, and god knows the world doesn't need my what apparently are my overblown chossfests.

Kinda funny to be accused of only doing R/X routes to get in guidebooks, but then being castigated and accused of 'ownership' if one attempts to refute the claim and are trying to stay out of guidebooks. Now there is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't proposition if ever there was one.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 29, 2011 - 09:56am PT
I don't have sh#t to contribute that hasn't already been said many times before, but a small note to add here is that not putting routes into guidebooks or sharing/mentioning them with others is a fast way to see bolts spring up on them. Then they will be in the guidebook with some other name...and possibly grade as well:-)

...jus sayin'...in fact, one of the 2 routes we did yesterday was named "It's all good"....which pretty much says what I think. The other one got named "Trad Dad, and we rap placed 2 bolts after we led it for those that follow. Don't clip them if you want a 50 foot fall (with a ground fall in one spot) onto marginal gear to be in your repertoire. If someone like Werner shows up and wants to free solo it, 2 bolts won't bother him.

You have to do what works for you and they're room for all of it as long as others don't override what you've done. ie, show up and retrobolt Joes route or take bolts out of Bobby D's route fait accompli, without permission, just because someone (selfishly) wants it. It should be more collaborative than that.

No one climbs Joes routes, he's fine with that, but they will get dirty and overgrown in short order, and at some point, even he won't enjoy climbing them is my prediction.

To answer the original question, I don't think any of the points raised in the first post would be as spot on as the fact that we all gain wisdom as we age. I think of the late Jim Anglin, who did some bad assed X rated routes as a youth. Ground up with a hand-drill, groundfall potential from high off the deck kind of routes. His later work was much better protected. I like to think that the bolts he added in his older age were due to the fact that he had gained wisdom in the intervening years. Certainly it's the opposite of selfishness, in that he was thinking of others who were to follow.

Is the decision either way a case of convenience, adapt-or-die, obdurate clinging to the past, selfishness, trying to stay popular with the kids, unwillingness to tarnish one's own past, unwillingness to accept one's limitations, bending with time, or being wanting things to remain within reach as we age?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 29, 2011 - 10:09am PT
Joe wrote: I suppose a perusal of one of your guidebooks wouldn't find your name attached to them either...


No you won't...and if you did it still doesn't give me ownership of the route.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Sep 29, 2011 - 10:29am PT
Bob D'A,

adding to your observation:

ownership of routes as I knew of in the past did work only because a small cliquish group is all that knew or cared about them. And even this type of ownership is a far cry from having deed or title. The days of that little en crowd rule are gone.

But one thing still remains: you can call a route yours and some of us will think you did the first ascent. But everyone knows someone can add a bolt and in most regions you have no legal recourse for seeking damages.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 29, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
Then they will be in the guidebook with some other name...and possibly grade as well:-)


yes, and then joe will get on the intardnet and bitch about someone bolting and cleaning the loose blocks of that piece of choss that he left no trace on and emphatecailly wanted left out of the guide book.

i have routes that i did where i left no trace and did not tell anyone and someone had gone and bolted them. good for them. they didnt know anybetter. not their fault. besides, they got to experience what they wanted and i got what i wanted. no harm no foul.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
...and bitch about someone cleaning the loose blocks of that piece of choss...

Some blocks are cleanable, others are not. The block on the new route is not one of the former unless you want it to register on the seismographs up in Seattle.

Couchmaster: No one climbs Joes routes, he's fine with that, but they will get dirty and overgrown in short order, and at some point, even he won't enjoy climbing them is my prediction.

You're right, only a handful of folks do my routes - generally with me - and as you said, I'm way fine with that. To be honest, you pretty much have to be into [unbolted] roofs to get their appeal and that isn't all that common here in PDX so I'm not at all surprised they don't have much appeal locally. As for them getting dirty and overgrown, most are more or less immune from that after the initial cleaning and one trip up the rest of them at the start of the season is plenty to keep them clean. And if they are never climbed again after I leave, that's equally cool too, but I just can't walk under big roofs year in, year out without eventually giving them a whirl.

Jim Anglin and guys like you are exactly the topic of the thread - still active old guys and the influence of their choices on the demographic - bummer Jim is no longer with us to speak for himself. He definitely straddled the divide having no problem putting up 'safe' sport climbs or doing long, free runouts on big walls. The last picture of him was belaying me on the unfinished roofs project 'Menopause' and he 'got' what I was trying to do there as much as he did a someone putting up a new sport line at 'Area 51'.

Dingus McGee: But one thing still remains: you can call a route yours and some of us will think you did the first ascent. But everyone knows someone can add a bolt and in most regions you have no legal recourse for seeking damages.

"Legal recourse"? So your point is retro-bolting is ok because it's legal? Really? Is that where we and FA rights are headed? If so, chaulk up another impact of a large, commercial demographic.
SeaClimb

climber
Sep 29, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
Jeepers Joe...just don't clip the frickin' bolt...sheesh...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
...just don't clip the frickin' bolt...sheesh...

Therein lies the heart of ships passing in the night oblivious to each other...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 29, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
so joe,

lets say, you dont get your routes in the guide. you dont leave a trace. some new guys show up at beacon and bolt your routes, climb them and name them something different...

what are you going to do then?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
Hawkeye: lets say, you dont get your routes in the guide. you dont leave a trace. some new guys show up at beacon and bolt your routes, climb them and name them something different...

Not really a scenario that's going to happen at Beacon where there is the odd tradition of bolted belays, also two of the routes have one or two pins on them, and another sports the only protection bolt I've ever placed in 37 years. The pins were retro'ed in a couple of Crack 'N Up and #2 Loweball placements.

But it's not like it hasn't happened and that's cool too - then someone else essentially has an 'FA experience' just like we did.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/146033/SoILL-Question-for-healyje
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