Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 40 of total 40 in this topic |
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 11, 2011 - 11:56am PT
|
Too much smoke here in Wy. There are 14 wild fires in the area. Any way surfin' the net, avoiding the smoke, I found these videos. I can't post the link but they are on Cold Thistle the alpine climbing site. Two recent ascents. The first of a route we did in the mid 70's. Originally named A Cold Dark Place. I guess it did not stick. It then became the Voie Jackson and now the Jackson/Shea Ginat. We rated it ED+ at the time cause it was harder than EDs we had done. It's been down rated to ED/V5+ M5. The crux is about 6:50 in 90/95 deg. It was fun and took about 7 hrs to do the 1000+ meters. Also the Richard Cranium a cool looking route around the buttress to the NW. Twight did this. I don't know when, but a more modern route. The climbing looks like the Colton/McIntyre on the Jorasses.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
|
Steve, had you been French, the original ratings would have held up...
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
|
The Damilano "Snow Ice and Mixed" guidebook has this description:
The Jackson. V 5+
D. Jackson and S. Shea, end July 1978
Icy corner to the right of the Ginat. Wonderful sections at 80/90 degrees.
Here is a shot of the face.
Rick
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
|
Rick, thanks for the photo. The route goes straight up the obvious waterfall coming down from the breche des droites. The start of the hard part is just above the notch in the shadow on the big icefield. The crux is a 30/40 meter corner that overhangs at the top. The video I found is about 14 min and clearly shows the difficulties. They say the corner is crackless. It isn't. I think most parties do it in winter for better ice. We did it in summer and had very thin hollow ice and steep mixed. The ice was so thin that it did not cover the corner but a perfect small wires crack appeared right at the most desperate time. We could not believe this obvious line had not been done. We were at the Argentiere hut and Jean Marc Boivin who was also there with a client confirmed its unclimbed status. We actually beat the Ginat party to the the whole route but that is another story. To what Todd said in the above post, the French were extremely territorial and did not like what the non "gens du pays" were doing. It's ok. As we used to say when we lived there; "the frogs are cool, why walk when you can hop?"
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
|
Thought I might just be able to locate a picture of part of your route.
Is it the waterfall-like ice to the far right in this picture? This is Jack R.'s shot from our ascent of the Corneau-Davaille in 1977. Brit Phil Burke and partner to the right.
This is a fine time for the "other story" about the Ginat!
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
|
Rick, another nice photo! I guess I should have taken a camera more often. That is not our route. It is further to the west out of the photo. That could be the lower Ginat. We never had ice that fat.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
|
Nice Steve. Say, when you went to Europe did you go over on the Nina, the Pinta or the Santa Maria?
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
|
Jesus wept! I am old, I did see the advent of toilet paper and electricity but no way did I ever take a sailing ship. And I am proud to say never climbed in a gym or done a sport route. Heh Heh
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
|
You shame me Steve, I just got in from clipping bolts on four routes.
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
|
You are a better man than me. I just cannot tear myself away from the anxiety of wondering if my pro is any good. I still climb with hexes. Plus you don't need pro in off widths.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Sep 11, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
|
Fun to see Steve and Rick on here again. FWIW the Jackson/Shea still has a stellar reputaion as one of the very best and more difficult ice routes in the range. Obviously things have changed a lot there in the past 30 years. For one the common language in Cham is English now not French! And they do have toilet paper and a public loo you can walk into and not risk dying.
Most of the mixed stuff is regularly done in mid winter and not at all in summer and seldom in early fall. No ice is the reason.
Last two winter seasons have been the exception and spectacular though. With the Ginat in particular getting hammered with literally steps up the lower ice field of perfect neve. Not uncommon to see half a dozen parties on in on a good day in Feb or March.
Nothing like what Steve climbed on really.
The lines get v threaded early on and get maintained often and most of the locals (as you saw) carry lwt skis up and over on their winter day climbs. 7hrs is still fast for a decent party *mid winter* in perfect neve on "A Cold Dark Place". But the gear and commitment have changed so much it aint like the old days. I met a local Swiss woman who did the Ginat twice in 36 hrs RT from Les Houches! Not even worth a comment these days in Cham. And knew of 2 locals who soloed up "A Cold Dark Place" and down the Ginat. With the Jackson /Shea being done in under 2 hours to the Breche. (new record for the face btw) But all that in perfect neve conditions as well. But also telling on the level of skill of the locals.
They have their own "stone masters" at work.
But no question there is still a lot of respect for Steve's and Dick Jackson's route in the Chamonix valley, even by the locals.
And no question if any of you guys had been French you'd be French National heros today.
You guys...Rick, Steve, Tobin, Mugs, Jack, Mike, Todd, John B. and who knows the all the rest really ripped it up there for a couple of seasons in a row. Proud lines that guys are still damn happy to get up and add to their own tick lists. ED+ and V+ is still considered some serious sheet even by the local french and brit's standards.
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
|
Let me try to clarifiy Jack's picture a bit with the modern labels for the routes. Rick and Steve get to rightfully call the routes what ever they were to them bitd. From Rick's comment, "Brit Phil Burke and partner to the right". Burke is actually in the M4/5 section of the Ginat on the first steep bit after the lower ice field.
Jack and Rick could actually be on the first bit of headwall of the Axt-Gross. (Wolfgang Axt et Werner Gross, du 24 au 26 juillet 1962) But much more likely they are on the Messner vari that then meets the Axt-Gross in a couple of pitches. I think it is that small little buttress of rock in the picture between the climbers that devides these two lines. The Messner is a very direct line that the Axt- Gross traverses into from the right. Likely the other plum in that section of the face. No wonder Jack and Rick were drawn to it.
The Cornuau-Davaille actually climbs rock and mixed to the right of the Jackson-Shea and is seldom repeated then or now as a mixed/rock climb.
You need to put the Cornuau-Davaille into perspective as it was done in 1955. No one got on really steep ice intentionally for another 2 decades. Amd the big north faces were cthen only climbed in what we now would consider really dry conditions.
That fine white plum line on the far right of Jack's picture is what the curent guide book author Damilano now calls "the Jackson". I love France and all the history there but the French would never stand for that kind of insult to their own climbs and climbers.
Not every line here is accurate or for that matter all the lines done draw in there. Messner's line is absent and one of the more obvious ice lines. Damilano's current English guide is a better source of info and the details.
1.Eperon Tournier intégral (Fernand Claret-Tournier et Charles Authenac, 1937 - Sylvain Jouty et Claude Deck, 1971 pour la version intégrale)
2.Couzy-Salson (J. Couzy et R. Salson, du 14 au 15 juillet 1952)
3.Cornuau-Davaille (Philippe Cornuau et Maurice Davaille, du 5 au 10 septembre 1955)
4.Axt-Gross (Wolfgang Axt et Werner Gross, du 24 au 26 juillet 1962)
5.Boivin-Gabarrou (Jean-Marc Boivin et Patrick Gabarrou, du 2 au 3 août 1975)
6.Colton-Brooks (Nick Colton et C. Brooks, 1977)
7.Ginat (J. Ginat, G. Modica, JP. Simond et JM. Troussier, 24 juillet 1978)
8.Voie Jackson (S. Shea et D. Jackson, fin juillet 1978)
9.Richard Cranium Memorial (Mark Twight et Barry Blanchard, 1990)
10.Rhem-Vimal (1992)
11.Barnoud-Marsigny (Paul Barnoud, Bernard et François Marsigny, du 31 décembre 1992 au 1er janvier 1993)
12.Baptistoune (François Bernard, David Cayrol et David Ravanel, 3 février 1994)
13.Tristan Quintana (Joan Quintana i Paredes, hiver 1997)
14.Col de l'Aiguille Verte - Face N
Sorry not trying to be a ass here just thought the history should be clear...some fine climbing done by the guys commenting on the thread.
More on the Messner route here:
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011/03/alpine-playground.html
And the Ginat here:
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2010/04/back-in-chamonix.html
And a good picture up the ice lines of the first headwall...the Jackson/Shea aka "A Cold Dark Place" should either the middle or more likely from what I have been told the far right hand, steep and thin little ice runnel. The line Mick Burke is on is straight above Colin in this picture. And I think Rick and Jack climbed around the obvious buttress to the left. If I have the runnels correct in my mind the middle and obvious thick line of ice in between gets done as well...just not very often. You would still be doing the Ginat. The Jackson-Shea is harder and has a "grand" reputation and the left line on the Ginat here is a lot easier and better protected.
photo courtesy of Colin Haley
Steve, Rick does any of that look familiar?
|
|
phil burke
Mountain climber
tideswell
|
|
Guys
I just came on this piece.
My partner "Matey" Lloyd and myself just followed our noses up the face. I always thought, as soon as I read the description, that we had in fact climbed The Shea route.
We soloed the ice field in the dark to the foot of the spur, where we caught up with Jack & Rick. We then followed the spur to it,s top L.H. side & climbed a steep vertical corner. The next pitch which I led was a very difficult mixed pitch, which I think is the photo. It went on in this vain until we reached a couloir running down from the breche, which we followed. As agreed we waited on the summit for Jack & Rick and then descended the next day
I,ve never pursued a claim on the route, but clearly we had climbed the 1st ascent of either the Shea or Ginat.
you decide
|
|
phil burke
Mountain climber
tideswell
|
|
Steve
Thanks for the welcome
I met up with Chouinard in Scotland once. We all used to laugh about one of his catalogues which described climbing breeches as "made from recycled Scottish gamekeepers trousers"!
Phil B
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
|
Not checking ST much and just saw this. Our route for sure is/was the right most climable ice runnel. From the Argentierre hut that year it looked like a good line. The hut gaurdian told us it was unclimbed, Boivin was there with a client. Interestingly at the top in the snow gully we saw no signs of recent passage which was strange because the Ginat was supposed to have been done just a couple of days prior. There had been no storms. Of course we did not know about the Ginat til later and the guardian who was a buddy of Boivin's said nothing about it but was certain our route had not been climbed. It was a difficult route, steep with one very long overhanging stretch capped by a roof. That section had very thin ice but decent rock pro. We rated it ED+. We felt it was significantly more difficult than all the ED's we had done, at least that year. We got to the Couvercle and were told again that it was virgin ground by that guardian. A few days later I showed Boivin and Valencant the route on a photo and they confirmed. As a matter of fact I think Boivin was the one who first wrote it up in the book at the meteo. We never did write it up but I remember adding the name Cold Dark Place at some point. That's all I know. We definitely were way farther to the right in the photo of Rick and Jack with Phil in the background. Right of Phil that is. Could've been the steep line in the distance. I clearly remember that we were very surprised to find it unclimbed, it was such a beautiful and obvious line. Phil it seems like the Ginat should be called the Burke. SS
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2012 - 08:22am PT
|
Hard to believe we did that over thirty years ago, looks like a trade route now. SS
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
|
Trust me Steve..it is no trade route yet. Still big accolades to the locals in Cham that get up it. The Ginat? Sure. The Ginat is now considered the the easiest of the "big ice" routes. Not so the Jackson/Shea.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 13, 2012 - 09:56am PT
|
Phil-
Hail fellow, well met!
Great to make contact again after all these years. The last time we spoke was 35 years ago on the descent. When we got down to the glacier at the end of the steep part of the south side of Les Droites, it warmed up, so I changed out of my long underwear. I distinctly remember you making some some wry comment about their garish red, white, and blue stripes.
Do you remember when my leg punched through up to the thigh in a hidden crevasse as we all walked down the glacier? Can't recall whether we roped up after that.
The photo evidence shows that you accomplished the first ascent a year before the claim of the Ginat team, at least on the initial, crux part of that route. So the Ginat should henceforth be known as the Burke/Lloyd . But in fainess, according to the Damilano guide, the Ginat carries on rightwards to the Breche des Droites and you guys went straight up after a while towards the East Summit, so you didn’t do all of what is now known as the Ginat.
I don’t recall exactly the line where Jack and I wandered up, but it may have been left of you and Matey. I do recall that our lines converged higher up at a belay , where we chatted. And then we followed you up the last part toward the East Summit. I recall a cheery bivy on top, each party on a snowy platform, within shouting distance of each other.
The winter and spring of 1977 was one of the snowiest seasons on record, so the ice was thicker on the face than normal. This is shown In the Baud guide to Chamonix ski descents, which records a number of significant first ski descents that year.
Les Droites, looking across while going down from the Grand Montets.
Here are some other photos from the climb all taken by Jack.
Reaching the hut Jack wanted me to stop by the sign, warning “Bivuoacs forbidden”. Of course, we followed the standard practice: we sneaked out after dinner to get a better night’s sleep and avoid the fee.
Phil and Matey on the first half snow field. What’s with the matching outfits?
Starting the steep section.
This looks closer to the summit where the angle eases.
And finally here is the jaunty long underwear that caused you amusement that day. Yes, I still have them, a little worse for wear.
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2012 - 11:26am PT
|
Rick is correct on the snowpack and resultant ski descents that year. I remember when I first met Boivin. It was on my first climb in Europe on the SF Midi. Rick has posted pictures of us (Randy Trover)roping up at the base. Boivin was up there with a client moving kind of slow. We pretty quickly caught up and shared a long belay due to other slow guided parties ahead. Jean Marc was freaking out over the skiing conditions and we talked of his plans for later. I remember he felt he was squandering his time guiding but it was the height of the tourist season, he was busy. Being one of the young stud new school guides , and already famous in France, his book was full. Later in the Argentierre I saw his boot tracks ascending and just a few meters away his Dynastar descent tracks. Triolet, Courtes and other faces and couloirs literally all over. Being a skier it made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Rule number one for him was always climb the surface you ski and watch the isotherme so there would be no surprises on the descent. He was the Man and a really good climber as well. Rick, great photos for Droites history.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 13, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
|
Some photos from that day on the Midi behind Boivin.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Feb 13, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
|
Nice pics and tales Rick and Steve.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Feb 13, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
|
Thanks for sharing Rick,Steve and Phil!
Great tales from the glory days!
A couple of Andre Roch north face shots from On Rock and Ice, 1947.
|
|
slapper
Trad climber
kincraig
|
|
|
Feb 14, 2012 - 10:02am PT
|
Great seeing some of the pics above and hearing about some of the earlier ascents on this magical face. I remember seeing headlamps on it as I set off on my first ever alpine peak - a humble ascent of the Aig. d'Argentiere - and it really captured my imagination. I eventually climbed it in Oct. 89 - with the late Alison Hargreaves - great time to climb there - not a soul in the Argentiere Basin and great conditions.
I was sure that one of the pics above was taken from exactly the same spot as one of mine - 20 years earlier, but on looking closer I guess not. The most insecure bit of our asecnt was getting over the 'schrund - had to aid off an axe shaft (see below). Never sure which route we did. Like Phil's I guess it was the 'follow our noses' route:
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
|
I finally got to my old slides and journals. Rick I found a photo of you from that same day on the Midi. You are going right under the big roof to the Contamine route. We went left on the Rebuffat where I met Boivin. Also found some photos of Jack after our Dru Couloir Direct epic. Also found a few slides of our climb on the Droites. Projecting the few photos of the Ginat section on the wall, show no signs of prior passage. No wonder! According to my journal we did the route on July 20, 1978. I think we were pretty cavalier about the whole thing and as I've said previously we could not believe it had not been done. Boivin made a bigger deal out of it than we and I think it was he who originally wrote it up at the Meteo because it was in French. Also when we showed Boivin and Valencant the photo of our route it was at a slide show they were giving at the CAF and there was absolutely NO talk of the Ginat! We all hung out after the slide show and talked for a while. This is why I've suspected we got there before Ginat. The records say they did it on the 24th. And now with Phil Burkes story, they in fact climbed the lower Ginat first, the year before, and Dick and I got the upper Ginat first where our route intersects, a year later. We were in no hurry to lay claim to the route and let things take it's course and only got excited about it some what later after seeing Boivin. No exact date was ever given so Ginat probably assumed they were first. RDB you can stir the pot now, Aug 20 was the day. I'll get the photos up asap. Here are my notes from 34 years ago. NF Droites, Dick Jackson+SS, 12 hrs schrund to Couvercle. Cross schrund directly under CD spur gain extremely steep ice couloir (parts overhanging) follow to top. Traverse left to snow gully and rock spur, climb to top. July 20, 1978 SS
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
Steve- I look forward to seeing that shot from the day we spent together on the Midi, as well as your other photos from that year.
We were trying to do the Contamine all free, as was our habit on rock routes there. Mike Graham and I had free climbed some classic alpine rock routes the year before you and I met, including the Rebuffat route on the Midi, the Robbins/Hemming on the Dru to the Jammed Block (except for two pins of aid in a wet section), and a route on the Pouce in the Aiguilles Rouge). On the Contamine, we (Rob or Gib? memory fails) were defeated by a beautiful finger crack that was impossible to try to free because it was too stuffed with wooden wedges to admit any digits.
While none of the routes we did were terribly difficult, they were rarely, if ever, being climbed free in those days. Like those ahead of you in the pictures, the rock climbers we saw in 76/77 invariably wore mountain boots and they were always amused, and a bit perplexed, that we went to such great effort to avoid hanging on the pegs.
Slapper- Welcome and thanks for posting the story and pictures of your climb with Alison Hargreaves in 1989. It’s a small climbing world: Jack Roberts was on the American K-2 team that Alison joined before she was killed there, along with Boulder’s Rob Slater. Nearby, there is a bench, at a beautiful spot on a trail in Eldorado Canyon, that holds a memorial plaque dedicated to Rob.
Tragically, both of our partners from these Les Droites photos died while climbing, Jack in the last 60 days.
I am sipping a tot of Speyside as I write this, from the distillery that is just down the road from Kincraig, your home, apparently. Join me in raising a glass to the memory of Jack, Alison and Rob.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
Bump.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
Thank you!
I never can get enough of Chamonix stories and photos.
And the Refuge Couvercle, my favorite alpine hut.
|
|
bldrjacsis
climber
|
|
Today is Jacks's 49th day. To help him move on I wrote a poem to send us all on our way. Enjoy
He was gone, but would not leave
His family and friends still had to grieve
This day had come and still he knew
That it would be hard to say adieu
Over rocks and through the trees
His spirit flowed with the breeze
He had time, he knew he did
To look things over, to make his bid
The earth shook and cried his name,
Not ready yet, he won't be tamed
He had things to do and things to see
He needs to feel, just let me be
The fire burned and candles were lite
He cried aloud, give me a bit
He craved this life and adored his home
He swore on his life, he would never roam
The waves rose up and heard his plea
And took his hand with bended knee
Its time to go, time to move on
You have things to do little John
The air swirled and tossed his hair
Do not worry, do not despair
Though gone you are from this earthly base,
Your spirit moves on to another place
He took a look and saw his home
And knew that he was not alone
His new body was young and fit
Not too bad, he must admit
Though his past was gone and one of fame
This new one, he thought, would be much more tame
No more mountains, no more climbs
He must learn to leave his past behind
Born into a family tree
That love him so, he must agree
He looked into his new families face
And knew at last, he had found his place.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
|
Pam-
Thanks for posting your heartfelt poem for Jack.
After 40 years of climbing, I still can’t reconcile the joys of climbing with the unspeakable toll that a death in the mountains exacts on loved ones. Sometimes I see this passion of ours as pure pathology and at other times there is no question that it worth the risk.
Rick
|
|
phil burke
Mountain climber
tideswell
|
|
|
May 25, 2012 - 05:38am PT
|
Rick
I,ve only just revisited the site and seen your post. Great to hear from you after all these years and so sad about Jack. I always meant to go and visit him, as in the 70,s California was a very exotic place for Brits.
The photos really stir the memories
On the mountain I do remember that we met up at the summit, but I always thought we had followed the couloir to the breche; the reason this sticks in my mind is that as you,ll recall there had been a storm the previous few days to our ascents and the couloir was full of unconsolidated snow. it kind of scared me, so maybe we did deviate out of it onto the E face head wall near the summit. We had followed it as soon as we surprisingly came across it, as it was the line of least resistance and we wanted off!
I remember that we roped the burgschrund before soloing the icefield and I had a McInnes Terodactyl axe, which promptly bent through 90deg when I tried to place a screw. I had to hammer it flat and luckily it didn,t break. I also thought that the first few pitches up off the ice was, for the standard of the day very difficult, so us climbing the route in a day was I thought a result!
Anyway great to hear from you and thanks for the memory stirring photos
Regards
Phil
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2012 - 10:53am PT
|
Hi Phil. Yup, you did the lower section of the line known as Ginat a year before. Congrats great line. Jackson and I made our effort in 78. I wrote a little about it upthread. I have found slides from that day but have yet to do what it takes to post them. Did we meet in Cham? I was there in 77 also; camped under the Midi Pherique cables near the Bosson.
|
|
carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
|
|
|
Oct 11, 2014 - 11:54am PT
|
... the route... march 1990 or 91, not sure...
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2014 - 08:20am PT
|
I have heard that conditions are terrific now, lots of moisture this summer. Also that the Desmaison on the Jorasses was done in 15hrs?! Wicked fast! It must be good climbing right now.
|
|
carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2014 - 10:00am PT
|
This year is the ONE.
Between april/october maybe ALL the Grandes Jorasses routes have been repeated, including Gousseault/Desmaison in 18h. (first in the day).
The "Queen" route: Colton/Mc Intyre... about 250 people... YES... 250 people have climb it.
Some "solo" too... in 3,30h. and paragliding descent...
Incredible.
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
Oct 12, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
|
Barry should post up about the Richard Cranium Memorial (Dick Head) route.
Apparently he and Mark were both suffering marital issues at the time
|
|
| Messages 1 - 40 of total 40 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!