Discussion Topic |
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 5, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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ok, since it's Labor Day and this is a bit of a controversy locally, I'll ask the age old question:
Who does the bulk of the house cleaning?
A local survey of loved ones indicates that women are expected to do the bulk of the house cleaning, and do, and often resent the fact that the men who are cohabitating do not do their fair share.
As a man, I am the first to admit that my cleanliness standards are not what the women in my life would consider acceptable. Not only the clutter, but just the grunge. The household chores are, for the most part, divided up by inference and not by explicit plan... a male desire would be (I assume) to have all this written down... but lots of house hold chores are done "as they need to be done, can't you see that!"
I suspect that women, by and large, to the bulk of the cleaning and are expected to by our societal norms. And that men are out doing their thing, their part, which is still asymmetrically rewarded...
How do you deal with this in your household, past, present, future?
Happy Labor Day...
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apogee
climber
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I don't know about societal norms, but in our home, I am definitely the one who drives household cleanliness standards. That's not to say I'm a 'Felix Unger', nor is it to say my wife is 'Oscar Madison', but I do have a stronger investment in a clean, organized home, though I may not do all of it myself.
For years and years and years I used to do all cleaning myself (home & car)- usually during my single years, when I had the time to do such things. Nowadays, we hire a housecleaner to come in every couple of weeks- even though we are far from flush with cash, it's money well spent as we can both spend our time doing other things we'd like to do, and reduce the tension of the expectation that each other do some cleaning. Still, daily chores such as dishes and trash/recycling remain something we work towards mutual acceptance.
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ruppell
climber
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Generally whoever has the time. Lately that's been me. Some things seem to be more acceptable for me than my girl. Like I don't really clean the bathroom that often. So she tends to do that. I do like a clean kitchen though so I tend to do that. All in all it's a trade off of who can tolerate what and for how long. Back to the dishes now!
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dcostell
Trad climber
OC
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Depends a lot on social class as well as career arrangement in the family, and then also on how you ask the question and how you account for household tasks that occupy full attention (washing floors say) or partial attention (running laundry, where there's 30-minute blocks of time where you can do something else).
In upper-middle class US-American families where both spouses have full-time careers, one estimate is that women spend 15hrs/wk and men 10hrs/wk on "primary" or full-attention housekeeping tasks and then another 10hrs/wk for women in "secondary" or partial attention housework and another ~5 for men in that same category
Of course, the question is how to weight split-attention housework stuff. From a research standpoint if you spend 20 minutes out of an hour sorting, loading, and emptying the washing machine and 40 minutes killing time waiting for it to finish by rights that's 20 minutes of work, 40 minutes free.
But subjectively experienced, that's not "free time" because you're tied to the task and anything else you do is constrained by its completion.
There's also big differences in how mothers and fathers in dual-career households experience "family time" (excursions, movie nights) or "spouse time" (dates w/ spouse) -- men are much more likely to count it as leisure, while women are more likely to count it as work because they are more likely to be the go-to in arranging childcare, doing scheduling and that kind of planning work necessary for the activity to succeed. Women are more likely to view leisure as being "when no-one can make demands on my attention or time"
The above is from lecture notes so YMMV.
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
British Columbia
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I do. Neatness is probably a bigger part of it.
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dcostell
Trad climber
OC
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That's a broader perspective. My wife and I divvy up household tasks through solving riddles, laying elaborate traps, and rolling dice in games of chance. We call it "Dusting & Dishes"
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Living basically alone, I do ALL the cleaning.
When I was married, I learned to keep the house cleaner as a way to keep resentments down. I volunteerily began sitting down when I pissed, so the spray would not make cleaning the bathroom such a chore. She did the cooking. I prepped the food and washed the dishes. We both did and continue to do child care as equally as possible. Now that our daughter is off to college, it's a mute point. I usually dealt with composting/recycling ("Taking out the garbage!"). Every so often, she'd need to "clean the house" because her needs for cleanliness were higher than mine. And when she'd go away for a few days, I'd ALWAYS "clean the house' to her standard, so she'd feel welcome and cared for and be able to relax in our home without resentments or feeling like she had to do some cleaning.
Today I bought a mop because I have to clean the house I just moved out of. Ironic that it was/is Labor Day!
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
British Columbia
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my roommate has turned into a lazy f*#k
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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BrassNuts has been accused by some (Tarbuster) of being fastidious when it comes to the cleanliness and organization of our home. He is "very organized" and neat. I am too luckily though he more so than I.
The major difference is "the pile." I admit, I like having a pile. My pile is next to the bed and is always there. It can be small, or sometimes a bit larger. It has some clothes, books, a shoe or two... There is something very satisfying about my pile. It drives him nuts. :)
Due to equal effort, we have a neat, clean and very well organized home (complete with labels...on most everything). I couldn't imagine living with a pig.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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That would be fun to hear from the spouses..
But what about all the other things. Like
Who cooks?
Who shovels the snow?
Gathers, cuts and splits and stacks the firewood? And brings it into the house?
Who maintains the yard?
Who maintains the autos?
Who maintains the sporting equipment?
Who maintains the house, ie plumbing and such?
Who takes care of the pets/kids?
Who fixes the computers?
There are lots of things besides cleaning.
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pocoloco1
Social climber
The Chihuahua Desert
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“A maid. A man needs a maid.
A maid.”
Neil Young .... so true
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I would prefer a cook. I hate cooking.
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apogee
climber
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Who cooks?
She does. She's waaaaay skilled in that dept.
Who shovels the snow?
Me.
Gathers, cuts and splits and stacks the firewood? And brings it into the house?
I do most of the stacking & outside organizing, we split duties bringing into the house.
Who maintains the yard?
Me, except for her garden.
Who maintains the autos?
Me. Used to do all repairs myself, nowadays, we bring them out for most repairs (similar rationale as housecleaners).
Who maintains the sporting equipment?
We maintain our own stuff.
Who maintains the house, ie plumbing and such?
Me, me, me...mos def.
Who takes care of the pets/kids?
She takes primary care of pets.
Who fixes the computers?
We maintain our own rigs, though I have more skillz in that dept.
Nice list, Moosie.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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I'm clean, but have a maid clean once a week. The place is spotless and I'm happy paying her to help keep it that way. She is very happy for the job. I am out of town more than in town so if friends need a place to stay I'm never troubled with trying to do the laundry when I happen to be home for one hour a week. Everyone is happy!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
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"THE PILE" yes, I know it well... I live by the adage: "don't file it, pile it" which expands my zone of unhappiness into the workplace...
...our perception of what we do is sometimes at variance with those with whom we live, so perspective would be great, I suspect that we make accommodations, or try to, to justify not doing somethings... the perspective from the others would be interesting...
and how are the tasks of living divvied up? how are the equivalences calculated... if I spend many weekends insulating the attic (without stepping through the ceiling!) how does that figure into the equation? etc...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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my expectation of clean vs. picked up differs from my other half. i think it has to do with when she wears her contacts. i.e. the shower gets cleaned by me more than her.
not sure that addresses the Ed question tho. :)
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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While camping in Tuolumne, we overheard the couple in an adjacent campsite discussing who would do the dishes. This went on for a while. Finally, the guy said "I did all the leads".
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zeta
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Who cooks?
Who shovels the snow?
Gathers, cuts and splits and stacks the firewood? And brings it into the house?
Who maintains the yard?
Who maintains the autos?
Who maintains the sporting equipment?
Who maintains the house, ie plumbing and such?
Who takes care of the pets/kids?
Who fixes the computers?
interesting list...the thing is that some cleaning needs to happen daily while other stuff is infrequent (plumbing repairs)
I think household work is still very gendered, even among supposedly progressive/egalitarian couples...it seems to me that most men I know tend to do the 'infrequent' chores (garage, auto, fixing something in the house when it's broken) while women are still overwhelmingly doing the laundry, cooking, indoor cleaning (sweeping, mopping), childcare, and grocery shopping.
I know there are exceptions. It's always negotiated among couples but i still think there's a LONG way to go....
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Funny this post should appear today!
Honey!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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I provide the semen and the funding. She deals with everything else.
No one complains, so neither should you.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, ed....
when i was married, the ex rarely did a thing, except clean his plate by fork or tortilla... and he keep the tv well worked...
*he did do his steady job, so's we could have a place to live and food, while i took care of house and yard...
*the texas yards, though were hard grass to handle, so i'd have to press him to mow the yard, or do any heavy work that i could not do... and he'd lug out a cat litter when it was time for me to clean it...
well--having all boys, i taught my boys to do their cloths, when they were old enough to--they like that, being that as the neared the teens, they would have no clothes, if they didn't do it, as i told them so... :)
we never ate in other rooms, due to south texas roaches, feeling "too welcomed" by crumbs etc... so all dishes came to me, and i'd wash, as i liked to make sure it was set for the night, and no roaches, :))
kept everything in it's proper spot, so no clutter and thus the house looked clean, even if it wasn't due for proper cleaning, yet..
nowwwwwwwwwwww.... with me and the critters here...
well, i do everthing, and keep all things in proper places (or, in those occasional "fun to decorate around" posturing-piles of 'what-nots' and things to grab when 'on the spur'...
never gets messy that way... so--only cleaning it all then needs is vacumming--well, THAT would be easy, if it wasn't for THESE critters doing their work, WHICH they so heart-feltedly, seem needed to chip in:
patty ann marie
she will load up the ol' sofa with her hair, and do it quite well... and she adds any finishing touches, to the old ragged flat carpet (as this house had that when we moved in)with bits of sand or dusty dirt from outside (times when wiping her feet didn't help much)...
the host of cats:
they work hard at house-cleaning, leaveing a clean-sheen of cat hair, near abouts everywhere that i figured i had already cleaned my OWN way...
i, of course keep the cat litters (and bathroom) clean, too, as well--, AS to tell you the truth, they DO NOT seem to understand that the treasures that they leave here, in their version of setting-up house, is not really a clean-type-aspect of such doings...
wow, thanks for the fun, ed...
say, my foot was a bit hurt, so the house was awful for near two weeks... well, now on labor day, it is well enough to clean...
been up all night, til 8 in the morning, happyily-whole-heartedly doing it...
say, all, wow, my house is clean again!
wow, say, wonder what that ol' CAT is fixing to do now??
hmmm, i better go follow it....
oooops, yep, just as i susected...
wellllllll, you all, .... got to go now...
:)
happy housecleaning and
happy holiday...
:)
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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i do most of the cooking and cleaning in my house.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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I order the butler to make sure that the housekeeper has all of the maids keep the house in order.
I am responsible for signing all of the pay cheques for the staff and ensuring the estate is profitable.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Who cleans, cooks and runs the household these days?
Men of course.
I blame the breakdown of established societal norms.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I do the bulk of the cooking simply because my wife cant cook, she's too hung up on following the directions to be a good cook but she is a great accountant so she takes care of the money. We share on house cleaning but my standards are lower than hers and I just dont see some of the stuff that drives her crazy. I do all the fix it stuff around the house and do all the work on the cars, have not been to a mechanic in years, black electrical tape covers those service engine soon lights very nicely.
All in all we try and share duties evenly when we can.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Who cooks? Almost always he does. He likes how he does it better. I generally always clean afterward. He also does most of the grocery shopping. There is nothing I hate more than shopping, and this includes the grocery store. He seems to actually enjoy it! And he enjoys not eating toast for a week straight.
Who shovels the snow? Both do though he does it more than I do.
Gathers, cuts and splits and stacks the firewood? And brings it into the house? N/A
Who maintains the yard? Primarily I do. I cut, edge, weed eat, weed, make new flower beds, buy the flowers, plant them, care for them. Just yesterday I replaced four sprinkler heads in the sprinkler system. He is not a fan of yard work at all.
Who maintains the autos? We each take care of our own.
Who maintains the sporting equipment? Maintains? You mean ogles, organizes, gazes at? He does. :) This is hardly a chore at our home. I may draw back a stump if I fooled with the climbing gear. When we go for a bike ride, we generally each clean and prep our own bike though.
Who maintains the house, ie plumbing and such? I deal with HH repairs and upgrades far more than he does. I have a more flexible schedule so I am the one that generally deals with this.
Who takes care of the pets/kids? He deals with his feline, and I deal with my parrots. And as for kids - we each took care of ensuring they would never be a part of our lives.
Who fixes the computers? Each deals with our own equipment.
Moosie said "There are lots of things besides cleaning."
Yes, you forgot laundry - a most dreaded chore. We each do our own. Nothing we own ever needs to be ironed so this is not an issue. And almost nothing we own needs the care of dry cleaning so that too is not an issue.
Who drives? We each do.
Can't think of other forgotten responsibilities.
edit: No surprise I forgot this: take out trash and recycling. I seem completely incapable of these tasks and I don't know why. He does it 99% of the time.
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adam d
climber
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SHE says I do:
General cleaning: 30%
Cooking: 20%
Take out: 80%
Dishes: 42%
Compost: 95%
Trash: 50%
Litter Box: 1%
Garden/watering: 75%
Laundry: 7%
Shopping: 50%
Special occasion cleaning: 45%
Coffee making: 95%
We both like it tidy and organized but her more so than me.
I agree within 5-10% or so...guess I've got some more work to do!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If you do the leads and pay the bills you don't gotta do shlt else.
OLD ESTABLISHED RULE I JUST MADE UP
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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I'm the only one that lives here. I guess I'd better get on it, huh?
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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The major difference is "the pile." If I only had one...I read once to never pick up a piece of paper twice. Yet to master that wisdom.
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cyndiebransford
climber
31 years in Joshua Tree, now Alaska
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I do all the cleaning. He doesn't see the point since it will just get dirty again. I do the laundry. I do the yard work and pick up the dog poo 90% of the time. I cook, he does the dishes. He does 90% of the fixing of broken things and that includes the computer. I handle the finances. He does some car maintaince and we both take our own cars in when needed. The trash is probably 50/50. No fireploace or woodstove. He does chop down trees on the property. I do all the painting and he does all the building. I do the shopping, although usually he comes and sits in the car with a coke from McDonald's and listens to the radio. We both were in other relationships when we were raising children so that is not an issue. Is it divided fairly? Probably not. Do either one of us complain about it, rarely.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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this all sounds sooo '70s ish. Do people still worry about such things? Who climbs the thirty foot ladder in the middle of a rain storm to fix a leaking roof. I can guarantee its not the wife. ha
I live alone (maybe my attitude explains that), so no one cleans. lol (I've always got better things to do. But my roof doesn't leak.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I've been trying to train Loki to do her share of cleaning, but she's a slow learner.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I'm doing it right now.
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
British Columbia
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^^^ cleaning at the computer? must be using tissue....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Ever since J-Do (Donini) and I got that Husqvarna leaf blower, we fight each other for who gets to do the living room. The other rooms being quite a bit smaller, one doesn't get quite the fun velocity levels and they simply go neglected. Our guests don't comment on the chunks; probably due to sympathy for the elderly.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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ME, ME, and ME!!!!!
So there!!!
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Phil_B
Social climber
Hercules, CA
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Came back from a wonderful weekend to my first set of Honey-Do's in over 10 years.
Grumbling compliance is easier than outright defiance. Especially when I see the point. If she were a neat freak, she certainly wouldn't have said yes to me.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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J does a lot more on a regular basis, and I do the big overhaul and spit shine efforts, mostly only when company is coming. We're both pretty good at ignoring housework and allowing filth and piles to accumulate without worrying about it a bit.
He puts things away more often, but often does it by cramming bits and bobs into cardboard boxes and hiding those in closets. I hate putting things away "wrong" so, I leave them to accumulate in plain sight for months at a time. (e.g. I de-pile my work desk once a semester.) He does the garbage and yard most of the time. The laundry is my exclusive realm. (Hint for men still stuck with this chore: Turn a load of laundry pink, and you will be relieved of this duty at least where her clothes are concerned forever.)
I shop for dinner most days. He's the chef, and I'm the sommelier. (i.e. I visit with him from the couch with a glass of wine.)
Over the summer I bought a Roomba, and for the first time ever, my wood floors shine. I love emptying Roomba and seeing what its daily catch was when I get home from work. Since it auto-deploys, it runs when if someone were to ask me, I'd say that there wasn't a speck of dust to sweep. When it comes back daily choked with cat fur, I get a good self-awareness check re: just how blind I am to messes.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Hey - I do the leads, and I pay the bills.
Who cooks? 50/50 The best meals are the ones he fixes while I prepare the desserts, always with homemade whipped cream.
Who shovels the snow? We don't get any in the maritime environment. However, I do drive to the snow and play in it more often.
Gathers, cuts and splits and stacks the firewood? And brings it into the house? I earn the money that pays for the heat pump.
Who maintains the yard? He cuts the grass - irregularly - and leaves stuff on the grass so it dies. I weed the flower beds and landscaping irregularly. It works out much better when we have a summer drought so nothing grows. That didn't happen this year, so it is a bit out of control.
Who maintains the autos? He does the minor maintenance, and the cars go to a local mechanic when they need the kind of work he "simply doesn't have the tools to do efficiently". You can never have enough tools. All jobs require specialty tools.
Who maintains the sporting equipment? He cleans the cams, I mark the gear. He tunes the skis, and I detune the skis.
Who maintains the house, ie plumbing and such? See the chapter on tools. He does it provided he has the right tools, and there is no time limit for a honey-do project. If I have any expectations that it must be done today, then we discuss hiring someone - or he hires a friend to help him.
Who takes care of the pets/kids? I don't want a pet. I have a husband and children. That is more than I can take care of properly. He takes care of the pet, and I won't let the cat into the house if the litter box has not been cleaned. He took care of the chickens, but that wasn't up to standards, so we won't replace the chickens recently consumed by local coyotes. He transports kids to their sundry appointments and activities. I was the schoolbus for high school since the school was 3 miles from my office. I water plants from Memorial Day to Labor Day. They die shortly thereafter from neglect as Fall is the best climbing season.
Who fixes the computers? He fixed the computer once. Now the rule is - I take care of mine, and he takes care of his. There is clear responsibility for viruses and issues.
Laundry - We each do our own. That way I can be responsible for all inadvertant shrikage or melting of my "delicates" or hi-tec fabrics.
It isn't a perfect division of labor. We do have very different standards of cleanliness. He has no idea what a toiletbrush is or how to clean a refirgerator. The self cleaning oven is beyond his mechanical ability. THese issues matter to me daily and only enter his mind when under attack by mice or ants. I see no reason to take my shoes off in my own house.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Bill usually works seven days a week so it's logical that I do most of the cleaning. I don't resent it, instead I feel useful and needed. I also clean better than most which is useful.
I also break things. He fixes stuff.
I take care of my Dad's house, which is my responsibility since the old man isn't doing well.
Bill oversees my Dad's health care.
I think we make a great team. :)
AFS
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2011 - 12:42am PT
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Melissa: (Hint for men still stuck with this chore: Turn a load of laundry pink, and you will be relieved of this duty at least where her clothes are concerned forever.)
actually, not forever, about 5 or 6 years though... and what happened after about a year or so, all the dirty clothes in the hamper on "wash day" were mine...
now fully forgiven, about 10 years, and expected to do my share of all the laundry, and not turn things pink...
so not forever...
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adam d
climber
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^^^^^^
Yup...Roomba in the mail. No really. It was my 3 year old niece's idea. She's a smart cookie. She said now that I have a cat I ought to have a Roomba.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Don't girls like pink clothes any more?
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Our Loki does a good vacuum impression when you drop food. As for everything else, she happily sheds over it...
:)
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apogee
climber
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DT, didn't you leave for the day?
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Bill just doesn't separate colors, uses the dryer on everything including fleece and washes in one temperature, HOT... That keeps him away from all clothes including his own.
He is in charge of money, booking flights, and purchasing all of the expensive items. I just do the grocery shopping and I get small things for myself.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"Who does the bulk of the house cleaning?"
Uh...wait for it...
our maid.
She also does all the cooking, laundry, and buying of food...pays the local bills, and, and...
I love that part of living in Asia!
Haven't done any of that for like 12 years now-well except when I come home for summer, then the house goes to sh*te.
Cheers,
DD
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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I want a man maid with a pool boy. ;) It's not ever going to happen but heck the idea is wonderful. :)
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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^^^^^SPAMMER^^^^^
By all means, continue the thread, but do not click on the link above.
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