Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
I think I'll skip ahead to the experience of experience of experience.
Oh wait, I'm getting another idea.
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
MikeL,
what is it that knows you had the experience?
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Ed:
I can't answer your question. I can't find any thing or any body. Yet consciousness manifests itself apparently unendingly. I posted "mises en abyme" earlier. It's like that.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Experience is what you know...
Experience is living - i.e. behavior, some innate, some learned. Knowing is what organisms, each to its capabilities, can contextualize as awareness of past, present and potential future experiences.
Yet consciousness manifests itself apparently unendingly.
Life capable of sufficient behavior manifest consciousness. It is only as 'unending', 'universal' or 'ubiquitous' as individual lives - unless you are a believer in some form of metaphysics / panpsychism. In which case, sure, then it's no different than energy or gravity and pervades everything everywhere. But then, that's not been my experience.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
I posted "mises en abyme" earlier. It's like that.
like it in what way? that we can produce the effect, be amazed/baffled by it, and then apply it as an analogy to other things we're amazed/baffled by?
or
self-referential?
or
infinitely regressive?
or
just too confusing to be able to think about?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
infinitely regressive?
I pretty sure jgill could produce a pretty picture of it if that's the case.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
wiki
Experience is the knowledge or mastery of an event or subject gained through involvement in or exposure to it.
Behavior or behaviour (see spelling differences) is the range of actions and mannerisms made by individuals, organisms, systems, or artificial entities in conjunction with themselves or their environment, which includes the other systems or organisms around as well as the (inanimate) physical environment. It is the response of the system or organism to various stimuli or inputs, whether internal or external, conscious or subconscious, overt or covert, and voluntary or involuntary
they seem different, as in not belonging in the same definition?
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
One can see anything and offer infinite interpretations, such as was done above.
Miss en abyss might portray an image imagining itself.
What consciousness is aware of is consciousness itself. Pristine awareness. The experience of experience without content. The medium not the message.
Even those declarations are heavy-handed. But I can’t imagine a concept that can properly express awareness being felt self-aware. Like a mobius strip, sort-of, kinda. What could evolve and involve simultaneously? What is the utter totality of Now?
Is this helping?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Try a dictionary as opposed to wiki...
Full Definition of experience
...
4 : something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through
5 : the act or process of directly perceiving events or reality
There are no 'experiences' outside the context of behavior - i.e. behave/experience is what life does.
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
This is what you know as the Akashic records. In each star system that has intelligent life with souls inhabiting them, they have an equivalent 'Hall of Gifts.'
I inquired as to why they called the records 'gifts' and he said, 'All experiences are gifts to the Creator. We are given the gift of life and the gift we return to the Creator is the experiences we have. There is no good or bad or right or wrong — just experience. This is how the Creator experiences itself in infinite ways through its creations that create new and unique experiences.
|
|
cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
|
|
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Healyje: Full Definition of experience
...
4 : something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through
5 : the act or process of directly perceiving events or reality
I continue to see this kind of exposition and reference. Someone goes to a book, pulls out someone else’s writing, and then makes a broad generalization. “It’s finished!”
What is it that ever led you to think and believe that words are directly connected to what reality is? It’s all an approximation—at best. Words refer (as about as loosely as can be conceived) to concepts, and concepts are loosely, incompletely, and inaccurately signaling some referent. There is no real connection between a thing (so-called, that is, if “things” can be parsed / abstracted out of reality willy nilly without the rest of reality) and a concept. A concept is an abstraction, a model, a heuristic, a rule of thumb. It is NOT the thing, even if you could find and finally pin-down a “thing.” You too are living in a world of models. Quit giving life to the models and see what cannot be said.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
What is it that ever led you to think and believe that words are directly connected to what reality is?
With the eyes of a child
You must come out and see
That your world's spinning 'round
And through life you will be
A small part
Of a hope
Of a love
That exists
In the eyes of a child you will see
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
There is no real connection between a thing (so-called, that is, if “things” can be parsed [or] abstracted out of reality willy nilly without the rest of reality) and a concept
Are there "things" that are not physical objects? I have a thought, which is a thing, and that thought progresses into a concept. I also have a car, which is a thing, and am somewhat aware of the concept of a car - and in the physical object the concept taken flesh.
You are far out on the fringes, but that's fine. We all need reminding of what happens if we were to gain the ability to see emptiness in all things.
Time for JL to re-enter the arena and explain once again the distinction between subjective and objective.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Jgill:
Bring out any so-called “thing” and place or hold it completely isolated from the rest of reality, John. Even a thought, that thought is not isolated or what the Buddhists would call “independently existent.” There is no “thing,” thought, feeling, sensation, object, item, notion, concept that stands outside of reality. Reality is a part, parcel, context, backdrop, field of each and every of those “things.” There is great infinite diversity, and there is just One reality. This is not a play on words.
Car. Say completely, accurately, leave nothing out about what a “car” is. Whatever you can say, more can be said. Whatever you define, you leave something out. You can’t quite express what a car is. To say it’s a concept is incomplete. To say it’s anything at all is not quite right. What is a car, after all? Take it or a tree a million light years away in outer space, deposit it, and you will not have isolated it. It’s still *in space* whether it be in outer space or the space of your mind or imagination. Take any thought or feeling or notion that you can come up with, and it can’t be put into complete isolation. First of all no one can get outside of their consciousness. Everything is related to everything else infinitely.
Every time someone makes a claim about cause-and-effect, it only takes a little bit of intelligence to notice that "the someone" has chosen this or that—but not other things—to make and see an association. Reality presents an unending unrepeating indescribable infinity of characteristics, texture, expressions, tastes, touches, sights, feelings (none of which we can define *what they are*), and some joker in a moment of insight says that A gives rise to B. Yeah?? And what about the rest of reality? Did that just go dark or disappear or something?
People here seem to think that we are special beings because we are pattern finders. Hogwash. We don’t find patterns. We choose them. Patterns are infinitely available.
None of this is sophistry. I’m not being clever or smart. I’m simply being honest with what I know and with what others have pointed out in so many other (yeah, scientific) fields. What we do with words and concepts are loose approximations, heuristics. None of those approaches tackle reality to the ground. Not one or all of them together pin-down, explain, denote, define, limit, show the edges what your consciousness appears to be aware of.
You are a scientist, I believe.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
You are exploring mental terrain far from the typical map, Mike. The communication lines are poor. All I can do is hope for the best for you. Remember to look both ways when crossing busy streets. Those car whatchamacallits don't care that there is no future, only the present.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
We don’t find patterns. We choose them. Patterns are infinitely available
I'm not really a scientist, Mike. Mathematicians lie in a nebulous domain somewhere between philosophy and science.
I think we discover patterns and/or create patterns depending upon the nature of our studies. But the distinctions here are mostly philosophical musings that distract from the essence of our being: To create and discover. As jstan has noted, we are what we do.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
None of those approaches tackle reality to the ground. Not one or all of them together pin-down, explain, denote, define, limit, show the edges what your consciousness appears to be aware of.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
for me, nothing is happening in 1 through 6 that I am aware of... at least I'm not conscious of it...
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
On an episode of The Good Wife that I had recorded there is some confusion of who or what to sue with regard to a driverless car that backended a woman's vehicle and left her paralyzed. The genius who designed the car was called as a witness and he testified (in a boardroom) that fuzzy driver software allowed the car to learn. For instance, at a four way stop the car initially would just sit there waiting for all other cars to cross the intersection. By introducing this software the car could learn how human drivers dealt with such instances.
At issue finally was the erasure of the hard drive. The developer admitted that, yes, the car might well erase the hard drive after the crash . . . as might a human trying to avoid prosecution.
Wonderful show.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
Interesting Ed. I could hear 6 and 7 but not 1-5 or 8.
It seems I can hear higher pitch than you and you can hear lower than me?
I wouldn't say any of it was consciousness, just a test of our hearing.
It brings to mind questions I have about healeyje's experiences in the sensory deprivation tank. I would say that whatever exists in your brain when you have nothing to see or hear, is your consciousness.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!