What is "Mind?"

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jogill

climber
Colorado
Nov 18, 2015 - 10:20am PT
This conversation on the soul takes me back to my experiences in the Art of Dreaming years ago. My "I-consciousness" seemed to separate from my inert body and gain great freedom. That I-consciousness seemed to be aligned with my personality. Perhaps similar experiences among the ancients gave rise to the concept of the soul and the feeling that the soul would survive death of the body. Who knows?

Does this resemble symmetry?

A lot of repitition of parts, but not a strong symmetry like that in my image, certainly.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 18, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
What is it that is cataloging that visual information and constructing decisions based on analysis?


The answer would depend a little on what you mean by cataloging, analysis, and constructing decisions. Much has been learned about how the brain remembers, analyzes information, and makes decisions. There is not necessarily a center. The brain is highly interconnected. Activity in any particular neuron is likely to be able to influence activity in any other neuron after a half-dozen synapses. The brain might be compared to a beehive or an ant colony. The collective may appear to act as a unit but when looked at closely you find many cooperating individuals/neurons.

That is a look at the brain from one perspective. Most of us experience a sense of self which has no simple explanation as physiology and no definite location within brain anatomy. It should be remembered, though, that surgically cutting the connections of the prefrontal cortex to the rest of the brain can have a profound effect on personality. This kind of operation was performed on thousands of people before drug treatment became preferred for serious mental illness.
MikeMc

Social climber
Nov 18, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
Sorry I thought this was the Woot is "Mind" thread.

My bad.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 18, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
A lot of repetition of parts, but not a strong symmetry like that in my image, certainly.

Agreed. I'd say isotropy. Related to symmetry but not as strong a pattern.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Nov 18, 2015 - 04:01pm PT
That is a look at the brain from one perspective. Most of us experience a sense of self which has no simple explanation as physiology and no definite location within brain anatomy. It should be remembered, though, that surgically cutting the connections of the prefrontal cortex to the rest of the brain can have a profound effect on personality. This kind of operation was performed on thousands of people before drug treatment became preferred for serious mental illness.

Not arguing the importance of the brain with regard to mind. However, sensory input requires discernment not built automatically into that input. Sensory input without discernment is useless. (to say the mind is secondary to sensory input seems a bit ridiculous.)

It's the discerning element, the experiencer of sensory input that sees itself as unique and necessary and actually "feels" as a result of input; this is where the greatest mystery resides.
That thing is the ultimate us. I don't think it's realized anywhere more fully than when the senses are deprived. The realization of experience is individual in nature has resulted historically in the notion of soul. Soul as the manifestation of self within each of us.

The question is what or who is the operator of the mind? The observing entity within the mind that finds satisfaction in its knowing, that revels in a sure sense of epistemological certainty.

I believe that entity is the soul. I call it the soul for lack of a better term.

I don’t know if that individual soul is eternal, but the structure of soul, in the general sense, does share a kind of eternity with the very structure of the universe, its arche, its physical limits, the strange structure of consciousness itself and structures forming inevitably within a context of what may very well be the eternal nature of the universe.

I become a transparent eye-ball; I am nothing; I see all."

And please Mr. Emerson, who or what is "I?"
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Nov 18, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
Did it realize it was useless?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Nov 18, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
Nice commentary, Ed. Thanks. I'd like to comment, but that stuff is way over my head. I will leave the articulate reply to Largo who is undaunted by difficult physics.

;>)

You are funny John. That's a B2 comment.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 18, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
Paul, I don't disagree with your take on the soul. Identity. Me-ness. Our uniqueness.

I just don't think it transcends death. Not as attractive a narrative as the ones given by religion, I know. Maybe that is why only 15% of Americans are atheists. Most people believe in a God, and they ALL offer life after death. Paradise or hell. What kind of God would send us to hell? He made us and pulls the strings, yes? Sending souls to hell for eternity sounds pretty petty, if god made us in his image.

That is where the religious notion of free will comes in. Very different from my notion of free will.

This has been talked over for years. Don't listen to me. Just go be happy.

WBraun

climber
Nov 18, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
What kind of God would send us to hell?

A benevolent one.

You punish people with jail already which is hell thus you are hypocrites and always in poor fund of knowledge.

The gross materialists are all already in hell and they are totally clueless to this fact.

Instead the atheist fools think they are in paradise all whole spending every moment trying at keeping hell at bay.

Fools ....
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 18, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
The question is what or who is the operator of the mind? The observing entity within the mind that finds satisfaction in its knowing, that revels in a sure sense of epistemological certainty.


Werner has an excellent answer:

Modern scientists study the motor car (the living entities gross physical material body) and then theorize it created and assembled itself with no one creating it or assembling it by evolution and then it drives itself with no driver (soul).

(from Aug 30 this year)



You and Werner appear to agree.

I believe that entity is the soul. I call it the soul for lack of a better term.

Please consider the term Ngarlu.

http://www.creahw.org.au/media/54910/chapter17.pdf



I especially like Werner's analogy. From my experience with public transit I realize that this may make God a bus driver. It makes perfect sense to me.


I don’t know if that individual soul is eternal, but the structure of soul, in the general sense, does share a kind of eternity with the very structure of the universe, its arche, its physical limits, the strange structure of consciousness itself and structures forming inevitably within a context of what may very well be the eternal nature of the universe.


An appealing vision. I have the sense that there is a soul, too.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Nov 18, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
But, based on the Moore's law, the whole brain simulation will be possible within 50 years.

Faith: a certainty based on desire rather than evidence.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Nov 18, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
Nope. An educated guess based on the rate of progress in human knowledge.

And why couldn't any believer Christian, Muslim or Jew not say the same about their belief? Would you say their guesses weren't educated or their understanding of human knowledge was insufficient? You assume so much.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Nov 18, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
I'm curious, How would you define "progress" in Islam over the last tweive hundred years?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Nov 18, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
I'm curious, How would you define "progress" in Islam over the last tweive hundred years?

From Averroes to Avicenna to Rumi to Sadiq Jalal al-Azm there is much to be described as progress in Islamic philosophy.

I like your sense of humor, Paul.

Thanks, i've been making a living with it for just about thirty years now.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 19, 2015 - 06:41am PT
Glancing up from the beaker:


This crowd wouldn't know Rumi from a Carigslist category.



She's right.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 19, 2015 - 09:12am PT
Faith: a certainty based on desire rather than evidence.

No. That is a non sequitur
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 19, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
WASHINGTON—Saying the finding would further scientists’ understanding of the most remote parts of the universe, NASA astronomers announced at a press conference Thursday that they had discovered a previously unknown cluster of nothingness in deep space. “Through the use of high-resolution infrared imaging, we have identified a large grouping of total emptiness roughly 8.5 billion light-years away that had heretofore gone undetected,” said NASA lead researcher Edward Hefter, adding that the newly discovered blank expanse, which is located between two immense regions of nothing, was far larger and more insignificant in scope than first thought. “We are continuing to investigate the age and origin of the emptiness, but it will be a slow process given that there is absolutely nothing in the cluster to study. However, initial data indicate that the space likely formed when a smaller void merged with a larger vacuum.” Hefter added that the distant cluster of nothingness strongly resembles 481 million similar such regions discovered in recent decades.

http://www.theonion.com/article/astronomers-discover-previously-unknown-cluster-no-51875
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Nov 19, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
From Averroes to Avicenna to Rumi to Sadiq Jalal al-Azm there is much to be described as progress in Islamic philosophy

Yes. And one sees that on an everyday basis in the middle east. Clearly on a par with the New Testament and the Reformation in Christianity.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
A cluster of nothing! Largo will be pleased.


When you set sail into the mind, nothingness is what you find once the jibber jabber starts to settle. This nothingness is so threatening to the discursive mind that people fear insanity, senility, wasting time, and all kinds of screwy, non-empirical things when the brain is not actively engaged with chewing on something. This despite the fact that rest, that "do nothing," that down time and so forth is so vital to the sane and sober, overall functioning of our sentient lives. Try and go without sleep for a few days and see how you feel. And it is during the deep, dreamless sleep, with nothing is at play in our minds, conscious or otherwise, that the brain seems to reboot, leaving us good-to-go.

In fact there is no escaping no-thingness, though there is no language to really deal with anything but objects. But we all intuitively know that nothingness is all around up.

Ed always asks: What's not physical?

Mind, for starters. It is not reductive to objective functioning, as we have seen. And when we default into saying that mind is entirely beholden to brain, and we keep reducing brain to atoms, we start seeing vast amounts of empty space between energy vortices. When we push and ask what "material" really and truly IS, no one knows, save there is a quantitative quality to the energy involved. And if we keep reducing and ask where particles came from, we are referenced back to a potentiality, or some bucolic void that is different then total lack and that vetoes a true creation meaning the stuff (however ephemeral) and the nothingness (which does NOT bend as a quantum field bends) are shape shifting but neither was ever created, per se.

JL
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 19, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
It [mind] is not reductive to objective functioning, as we have seen.


Who is we?

Try to look at the mind as a system of neurons. When you talk about atoms you are looking at the wrong scale.

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