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rand0M aXiS
Trad climber
Cheney, WA
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Blue is the color of God.
The modern scientist need data and math.
But the heart needs neither and can understand far more and greater than data, math and science ...... Italic Text
WORD!!!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
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Hi Jstan,
Note in my texts that I always saw that given our sense data and physicality (i.e., our body) ...
Yes, so long as we have this body, it will seem like an objective thing, a fixed, stand-alone object. But what does that mean?
We can not doubt our measurements, since we can replicate the accurate ones across the board. But WHAT is it we are measuring, WHAT is it our sense data is informing us about. A fixed, objective world that exists just as we experience it (be it blue, hard, hot, oblong, dense, porous, etc.), or does this stuff that is out there have a kind of equivocal and amorphous nature at bottom. We take our body, for instance, and when we start reducing down to the building blocks, the fundamental 'matter," which HAS to be real and objective, we instead find that:
"...the concept of matter may be generalized from atoms to include any objects having mass even when at rest, but this is ill-defined because an object's mass can arise from its (possibly massless) constituents' motion and interaction energies. Thus, matter does not have a universal definition, nor is it a fundamental concept in physics today. Matter is also used loosely as a general term for the substance that makes up all observable physical objects."
At bottom, there might be no "thing" there, meaning what we are measuring is not some specific physical "stuff" that has qualities, but as one friend says - "There ain't no such stuff. Only qualities/forces."
On the meta level, you better believe this stuff (like my leg) is experienced as being a universal object. I can vouch for that one.
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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You do well with philosophical commentaries. However, it appears you are stuck with this "reduction to no-thing" and need to move on into new and entertaining speculations that will spur continued interest in the thread.
Your posts about the nature of light had this desirable effect, and were in my opinion well thought out.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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At bottom, there might be no "thing" there,
If there isn't, what would that mean to you? How would it change you?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
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At bottom, there might be no "thing" there,
If there isn't, what would that mean to you? How would it change you?
I find it interesting that the idea of "reducing to nothing" is something John attributes to me (it comes from physics), and that he considers it wild metaphysical speculation as opposed to a reasonable supposition given the facts as we know them. What is the alternative?
While no one has come close to defining what matter IS, save for various property attributed to "it," we reify it as objective reality. And why are people rooting so hard for this kind of Newtonian take on "things?" Because the alternative of no-thing is intolerable to the discursive mind, even thought matter as some objective stuff is quite possible the truest flapdoodle we can imagine.
And MH2, the fundamental insight from all the experiential adventures is that at bottom there is NOT some thing, but no thing, an undifferentiated moment to moment fount that gives rise to all forms as we perceive them with our sense organs, and the properties and forces of which are the subject of our measurements. The existential realization of this is quite a different article than lobbing the concept around - sort of like hearing about a climb as opposed to doing it. Once you do the climb your experience is unequivocal - not to be confused with your evaluation of said climb.
JL
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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"The method employed I would gladly explain,
While I have it so clear in my head,
If I had but the time and you had but the brain—
But much yet remains to be said.
"In one moment I've seen what has hitherto been
Enveloped in absolute mystery,
And without extra charge I will give you at large
A Lesson in Natural History."
-Lewis Carroll
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Once you do the climb your experience is unequivocal
But you are also saying that our experience of matter is not to be trusted; that what appears to be matter isn't really a "thing." Saying that a climb is an unequivocal experience does not jibe with that.
My experience is that meditation is especially important to some people because it lets the mind ignore, or at least not care, about ridiculous questions. The mind is very grateful for that.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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I find it interesting that the idea of "reducing to nothing" is something John attributes to me (it comes from physics), and that he considers it wild metaphysical speculation as opposed to a reasonable supposition given the facts as we know them. What is the alternative? (JL)
That's precisely the point, John. We simply do not know the alternatives, which might be far more bizarre than reduction to emptiness. There are no investigative tools available so far down in the quantum world. Ed can correct me if I am in error.
I think it improbable you will convince viewers that your meditative experiences of no-thing are somehow at the root of all matter.
But I could be wrong . . .
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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moment to moment fount that gives rise to all forms as we perceive them
It could the simplest grand unified view possible but the number of words spent on it here...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"the fundamental insight from all the experiential adventures is that at bottom there is NOT some thing, but no thing, an undifferentiated moment to moment fount that gives rise to all forms as we perceive them with our sense organs, and the properties and forces of which are the subject of our measurements."
hey this isn't that far off necessarily from the fundamental insights of science...
at bottom there is a temporal fount, i.e., a moment to moment fount, (yes) that gives rise to all forms (yes) as we perceive them with our sense organs (yes) and the properties and forces of which are the subject of our measurements. (yes)
So except for the some-thing-no-thing issue and the differentiated-o-not issue, we are all in agreement.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Given the some-thing and no-thing concepts are as far as I can tell 1 to 1, . . .
Yes, and they are of course concepts attempting to describe reality - metaphysics meeting physics.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28444-leading-theory-of-consciousness-rocked-by-oddball-study/
4 November 2015
Leading theory of consciousness rocked by oddball study
Leading theory of consciousness rocked by oddball study
Doubts are emerging about one of our leading models of consciousness. It seems that brain signals thought to reflect consciousness are also generated during unconscious activity.
A decade of studies have lent credence to the global neuronal workspace theory of consciousness, which states that when something is perceived unconsciously, or subliminally, that information is processed locally in the brain.
In contrast, conscious perception occurs when the information is broadcast to a “global workspace”, or assemblies of neurons distributed across various brain regions, leading to activity over the entire network.
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WBraun
climber
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Now watch what your mind is doing when you look at the photo Edge took.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Everyone,
What color is this?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I find it interesting that the idea of "reducing to nothing" is something John attributes to me (it comes from physics)
it does not come from physics...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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^Well everybody knows that, right. Physics is just a tool created by either brilliant or idle minds. Sorry Ed, I couldn't resist.
Onward and further:
I am quite certain that I will never know the answer to "What is 'Mind'".
I am hoping that someone here comes up with the answer, at least before Licky publishes his book.
I have been wondering what happens when someone goes "out of his/her mind"?
Is it still there unchanged when the person gets back? And is that person just mindless in the interim? Or like some traveling circus pod does he/she inhabit someone else's? If it in fact occurs, how does the colonized mind feel about this invasion?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Reduction to no-thing. This infinite expansion is connected to the sum of the partial numerators of a self-generating collapsing continued fraction. This sum is similar to a Riemann sum so this is the image of a virtual integral (a rough approximation of a definite integral).
Or, just a pretty picture.
These images are impossible to predict.
;>)
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