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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jun 24, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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. . . most every one of my posts is posited from a psychological position of a "knower" energy . . . (JL)
Have you transcended your mortal shell and are now a being of pure energy?
I am impressed!
"We" don't need to participate. The Rational Mind will do all the work and we can coast
I thought studying math was difficult. Stupid me; I should have just turned the task over to the Rational Mind and coasted. All those years . . . wasted . . . when I could have become knower energy. So sad.
;>(
As a long time sugar junky I have concluded sugar is the most serious drug dependency in the US with huge health consequences (jstan)
Me too. I'm sipping my darkroast coffee with two spoons of raw sugar and cream as I type this. Too old to change.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 24, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
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Do you understand?
Sure. Thinking outside the box causes the box to grow : )
Jus sayin sticking within the realm of proofs would have never gotten the kitty hawk of the ground. Using imagination to combine experience's is what took climbing the Nose from how Largo and Co. did it, to the way Potter did it. Isn't this what Darwains "Origin of Species" taught us?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jun 24, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
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Brown does a great job here especially with the "no independent existence whatsoever." The real work is having a direct experince of this, as opposed to noodling it as a concept. Not easy. (JL)
IMHO this is the mind playing tricks on you, directed and focused by countless generations of "gurus." I'm sure it's an awesome experience, but to conflate it with external reality is a stretch. That's the "religious" part - not requiring a god.
I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that your degree of certainty is unwarranted.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
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How can such a person hope to know who they are?
You look at what you have done.
Hitler had a lot of words. You can even read some of them.
But we know him by what he did.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 24, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
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"no independent existence whatsoever."
I don't see how any organism could argue for an independent existence? Our bodies are dependent on air, water, tempature, etc. Or knowledge is dependent upon the substantiated knowledge from others. Einstein didnt invent Relativity, he merely furthered the path started by others. So what we hold in our minds, our memories aren't really "independent" inthat they were dependent on someone else's truths? Even our emotions are dependent on external truths, or lies.
Maybe we do have independence in which truths we wish to follow? I like honey with my coffee and cream : )
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jun 24, 2015 - 02:29pm PT
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He's talking about some sort of undifferentiated reality. Would you agree that there is a difference between a fish and the water in which it lives?
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 24, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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Becoming "attached" to concepts deny's or seriously narrows the ability to experience things as they are. An example would be the experience of pain. The typical response to pain is to tell yourself how much it hurts and to wish it or figure out how to make it go away.
If you look closer at this sensation of pain by feeling what it really feels like (rather than just labeling it pain) my experience is it has ebbs and flows, disappears, reappears, feels like pressure and generally is way different than what I thought pain was.
My experience is this same method of looking at or experiencing pain can be used to look at pleasure, happiness, unhappiness etc..They can be much different than what you thought they were conceptually. If you become attached to the concept of things it can become very rigid and concrete and you lose your freedom to experience the diversity of everything.
This is a great way to meditate just watching your experience and recognizing what concepts I construct about my experience and realizing they are my constructions and not the experience.
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Jun 24, 2015 - 02:40pm PT
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Darwin, Copernicus, Einstein, they discovered the laws of nature by studying evidence. Outside the box thinking, but not crazy ideas made out of thin air. They were first of all very good scientists. I always find it facinating that we claim discovery of something that was always there. By the way, Einstein, Darwin, and Copernicus only provided a model of their perception of the "laws of nature" and shared it with us. They never claimed discovery of anything. So are understanding and "reality" the same thing? I don't know. I do believe there is a disconnect between what we "see" and what is. And this is true even if we can all agree on the definitions, measurements and models. As far as we're concerned the event horizon is unknowable.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 03:27pm PT
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Not sure what your point is.
Oh I think Steevee enjoys being the thread contrarian is all. Maybe his preferred term would be "uncovery"? Columbus uncovered the new world (it was always there) in 1492. Chadwick uncovered the neutron (it was always there) in 1932. Galileo uncovered the moons of Jupiter (they were always there) in late 1500s/ early 1600s?
Fascinating.
PS.
It is noteworthy, I think, that it was we humans who uncovered these things - hear! hear! - and not any of our evolutionary cousins - the chimps, dogs and or cats, for eg.
In another universe, it might be rolling out differently.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 24, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
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And everybody here agrees that our senses cen only use a tiny amount of information available, and our brains make interpretation of that. So, no, we can not see objective reality, if it exists at all (there is no universal time, or distance, for example).
Not sure what your point is.
Seems a bit strange to extoll the virtues of the scientific method on the one hand as the key to our understanding of objective reality and question the existence of that reality on the other. If it exists at all? Really?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 24, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
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Crackpots never invented anything because they don't have knowledge.
Sure they did. Read Newton's Bio or Edison's or any number of "inventors."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 03:46pm PT
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You're suggesting Edison was a crackpot?
Newton read the bible too much, that is why he was perhaps part crackpot. Who among us would not have been? living in the 1600s with all its superstitions and church nonsense? There but for the grace of Atheist-God go I.
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So are understanding and "reality" the same thing?
With background in science (incl applied science, including psych, cognitive science and information processing dynamics) this distinction isn't hard to grasp.
But certainly academic philosophy of old (with at least one foot in ghost spirituality and theism throughout early and medieval times) made a mess of it. So even today, most without science edu support are powerfully confused over these distinctions (eg reality vs perception of reality, objective vs subjective, etc.).
But the blinders are coming off, more everyday, and progress is accelerating. Thank Atheist-God.
We are evolved information processing controllers, survival machines as Dawkins would put it, made to map the outside world in our minds and to operate off of it as means to survival in an oft-harsh complex environ. Which is why it's so important for these ever growing inner maps of ours to be valid and accurate - assuming of course the aim is to get on well in the world. The best you can.
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Consciousness not so in control after all...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150623141911.htm
"According to Morsella's framework, the "free will" that people typically attribute to their conscious mind -- the idea that our consciousness, as a "decider," guides us to a course of action -- does not exist."
Does not exist.
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Jun 24, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
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It is noteworthy, I think, that it was we humans who uncovered these things...
I'm curious what needed to be uncovered? It seems egocentric to assume we uncovered anything. By the way I believe the indigenous people of the "Americas" "uncovered" them before Columbus.
Not wanting to bust balls here but, really...this point of view is just as dangerous as assuming the world is flat.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
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Hey I'm glad Jonas Salk uncovered / invented the means to combatting polio.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2015 - 04:08pm PT
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Brown does a great job here especially with the "no independent existence whatsoever." The real work is having a direct experince of this, as opposed to noodling it as a concept. Not easy. (JL)
IMHO this is the mind playing tricks on you, directed and focused by countless generations of "gurus." I'm sure it's an awesome experience, but to conflate it with external reality is a stretch. That's the "religious" part - not requiring a god.
---
This is scientism. Plain and simple. A physicists mind doesn't play tricks on him, the thinking goes, because he has numbers to back up his ideas, but sans numbers, and measuring instruments, the physicist, and cartainly the rest of us, are led into delusions by way of gurus because we don't have enough self or discrimination to know we are being fooled.
Lord, does the man make any effort to understand anything save for people supporting his own world view? And can we ever make it clear to him the difference between perception and WHAT is being perceived. John, you continually error on the side of content, thinking there is some concept, some thing, some false knowledge that we are hoodwinded into believing, lacking the required numbers and instruments that safeguard those in know from being do duped. Tha is an amazing presumption, and radiaclly pesimistic, while posing as sober judgement. Who has it absolutely right beside those with figures to back up their ideas?
And what in the world do you mean, "to conflate this with external reality?" Are we talking on the macro level, or down further, where "matter" vanishes into no physical extent, a concept duffers swear is still not confirmed.
Any truth starts first and foremost with our observations - of instruments, or numbers, of our own internal process. Sans observation, we have no means of "knowing" anything. Obervation and awareness are the gateway to the whole shebang - no one can argue otherwise. Start there and see what you come up with.
But all this is besides the point of what was said earlier - lest one has direct experiences, we are all basically looking at a topo and guessing what the terrain is like, having never bothered to go there ourselves. And you will never talk a person out of a perspective - it's like trying to talk an alcoholic out of drinking. They stop on their own, or not at all. And if you are of a mind that only scientism is real, and that objects are "real" and nothing else, including your experience of being yourself, then so it goes - for you. The dishonesty come when you start universalizing this and projecting it onto all mankind, as though there was some truth in these fantastic claims.
Per fusion with sub-personalities, this is not easy material, but you can get a flavor for it by looking at Jung and anything you can find on disowned energies, transference, projection, and so forth. The Rational Mind is a favorite on this thread. What do you think fusion to it looks like? What about the opposite energies? Are you under the impression that "you" pilot your rational mind without having contact with the opposite energies? And how do you imagine that works.
And John S., I've seen you posit your ideas that actions and behavior determines who you are, and I agree with this to a point. But at a deeper level, human doing (action) is secondary to human being, and till you can shut up and stop calculating - or stop doing - the human being realm will be largely lost to you. When you stop doing, what is left? I believe that in your mind, there is action and words, and nothing else. Shut up and stop calculating (doing), even for a few hours, and see what else is there.
And notice that when Brown was quoted per his field metaphors, no one chimed in with their own thoughts or experiences. That is telling.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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Hey how about Lewis and Clark and The Discovery Corps? (The Missouri R was always there.) You got a problem with that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_of_Discovery
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Study, discovery, invention, tool making and using... Cultural evolutionary aggrandizement.... it's who we are. Maybe ultimately this strength will prove our ultimate weakness and undoing. Maybe.
But it behooves us to use this evolutionary gift, imo.
Maybe in your next life you come back as a fluke? In the brain of a ant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tF6KvI5KuA
:)
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I actually prefer the term human doing to human being.
How do you like them apples?
We are human doings.
What did you do today?
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Or human urging.
We are human urgings.
What were your urges today?
"Why do you have an urge or thought that you shouldn't be having? Because, in a sense, the consciousness system doesn't know that you shouldn't be thinking about something," Morsella said. "An urge generator doesn't know that an urge is irrelevant to other thoughts or ongoing action."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150623141911.htm
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 24, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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Looks like we lost Steevee. :(
.....
"The study of consciousness is complicated, Morsella added, because of the inherent difficulty of applying the conscious mind to study itself.
"For the vast majority of human history, we were hunting and gathering and had more pressing concerns that required rapidly executed voluntary actions," Morsella said. "Consciousness seems to have evolved for these types of actions rather than to understand itself."
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Jun 24, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
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Looks like we lost Steevee. :( LOL. Isn't that the point of this thread?
JL, all I got is a memory of when I was a child. I lay in bed in the dark and think about "nothing" (or what it would be like if there was nothing). Then I realized I couldn't think about anything because there's nothing. I felt like my body was falling. That's as far as it went. I did enjoy the sensation and did that exercise many times. I believe I stopped doing it after I "uncovered" masturbation ; )
Seriously though, maybe I need to go back to being a child.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Jun 24, 2015 - 05:21pm PT
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Jun 24, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
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Science, like every effort of thought, consists in interpreting experience… It is a mistake to think that experiment is of any use for this purpose, because all human thought, including beliefs which appear completely absurd, is experimental and claims to be based on and confirmed by experience… All thought is an effort of interpretation of experience, and experience provides neither model nor rule nor criterion for the interpretation; it provides the data of problems but not a way of solving or even of formulating them. This effort requires, like all other efforts, to be oriented towards something; all human effort is oriented and when man is not going in any direction he remains motionless. He cannot do without values. For all theoretical study the name of value is truth. It is impossible, no doubt, for men of flesh and blood in this world to have any representation of truth which is not defective; but they must have one — an imperfect image of the non-representable truth which we once saw, as Plato says, beyond the sky.
http://www.brainpickings.org/2015/06/24/simone-weil-on-science-necessity-and-the-love-of-god/
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