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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 13, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 13, 2015 - 05:57pm PT
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I laugh robustly.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 13, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
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^^^ Thanks for the memory!
For the record, was that a loving laugh, or a hateful HaHaHa?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jun 13, 2015 - 06:38pm PT
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Sniping doesn’t help conversation: (ML)
You would likely fail my course (ML)
Well, that's debatable. Chances are I would not enroll in your course. But if I did would I be your oldest student?
;>)
MH2 doesn’t like when I deconstruct his phrasing(ML)
Why do you feel the need to deconstruct anything? You and JL talk about scientists and engineers "reverse engineering" processes and how futile this practice is. Isn't deconstructing someone's writing similar?
Seriously, perhaps you would expand on the relationships between smart and imaginative. The smartest mathematicians I know are very imaginative as well. But I've known imaginative people who I wouldn't deem smart.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jun 13, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
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And I've never met an imaginative person who was stupid. Unschooled perhaps, but not stupid.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jun 13, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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Finally, a tangible debate!
;>)
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
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BUT !!!!
There is smart and ..... there is intelligence.
The gross materialists are generally very smart,
But lack real intelligence .....
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 13, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
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"Imagination is of more importance than knowledge"
Albert Einstein
He has shown strength with His arm; He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.He has put down the mighty from their thrones.And exalted the lowly.
Luke
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 13, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
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For the record, was that a loving laugh, or a hateful HaHaHa?
I was a little too young for Shakespeare so here is what I heard:
Be the innocent flower but look the serpent under it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 13, 2015 - 08:34pm PT
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ahh, the mystery of The Anglerfish \;=D
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jstan
climber
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Jun 13, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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Intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence
Wikipedia
Intelligence has been defined in many different ways such as in terms of one's capacity for logic, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, learning, emotional knowledge, memory, planning, creativity and problem solving.
Intelligent | Definition of intelligent by Merriam-Webster
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intelligent
Merriam‑Webster
having or showing the ability to easily learn or understand things or to deal with new or difficult situations : having or showing a lot of intelligence. : able to learn ...
Intelligent | Define Intelligent at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/intelligent
Dictionary.com
an intelligent student. displaying or characterized by quickness of understanding, sound thought, or good judgment: an intelligent reply. having the faculty of reasoning and understanding; possessing intelligence :
Wiki’s definition seems the most comprehensive. I would add an emphases applicable to problem solving. The person comes up with solutions quickly for which flaws are not found easily indicating alternatives in great depth had been explored.
Imaginative | Definition of imaginative by Merriam-Webster
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imaginative
Merriam‑Webster
Full Definition of IMAGINATIVE. 1 a : of, relating to, or characterized by imagination. b : devoid of truth : false.
Great painters, musicians, and writers are imaginative. However, being imaginative isn’t just limited to the arts. When you're imaginative, you can develop a unique solution to a problem or issue. For example, an imaginative engineer might develop a new, more efficient way to construct a bridge. An idea or object that’s fresh and original — like that bridge the engineer designed — can also be described as imaginative.
Imaginative dictionary definition | imaginative defined
http://www.yourdictionary.com/imaginative
yourDictionary.com
Use imaginative in a sentence. adjective. The definition of imaginative is having or showing creativeness or resourcefulness. When you are able to make up an entire fantasy dream world to entertain yourself and you can get lost in your own creative ideas, this is an example of being an imaginative person.
An imaginative person is one who easily invents new things often as extrapolations from the mundane. Unexpected links are often involved suggesting a highly developed corpus collosum or other unusual linkages in the brain.
SMART is a mnemonic acronym, giving criteria to guide in the setting of objectives, for example in project management, employee-performance management and personal development. The letters S and M usually mean specific and measurable.
SMART has been co-opted by the digital world and has become an acronym. Hard to find a definition along the earlier lines.
This offered here as merely a start.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 13, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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How is it that evolution does not favor the perception of reality?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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Because reality is outside of evolution ....
Life has tenderness.
A machine is a robot.
With no life and no tenderness .....
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 13, 2015 - 11:19pm PT
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BB: . . . And the ultimate expression would be to lay down one's own life for that of another,. . .
Seen this up close and personal. There’s no description from either side. Everyone is like, “WTF???” Totally mysterious. You can come up with all sorts of psychological explanations or such, but the power of the experience is . . . pfffttttt! :-)
A friend of mine recently said, that a person was able to understand on a “need to know” basis. And that there was no need to know. Knowing only got in the way of the radiance, the grace, the full-on experience. Indeed, there is no need to know to be.
Jgill: You and JL talk about scientists and engineers "reverse engineering" processes and how futile this practice is.
I don’t mean to say that it’s futile. It just can’t be completed or achieved. The process itself is productive; it’s is everything! There is no end to the process. There is no final point or destination. Stay with the process and push on it.
[Perhaps} you would expand on the relationships between smart and imaginative. The smartest mathematicians I know are very imaginative as well.
I’m sure you’re right. I’m questioning what “smart” means or is. If it’s IQ or such not, I am not impressed. Smart is tapping into the whole person—light and dark, emotional and intellectual, rational and irrational, mystical and sensible, etc. What seems to matter is a holistic being, a fullness of perception, a reed among a wind of preference, some-who or -what that is not quite there, something or someone with an understanding of style (how versus what), a being that has no where to go and nothing to do.
A f*cking stake in the ground.
Paul: How is it that evolution does not favor the perception of reality?
This is a helluva good question.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 14, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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Jan, good to hear you liked the Pinker Wright interview.
Speaking of which, here's the part of the interview edited down to just the hard problem of consciousness / sentience ("the crux of the biscuit") that came at the very end of the one-hour plus discussion.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYYzPPsUxDQ
Very apropos to this thread, I think.
"Our minds evolved by natural selection to solve problems that were life and death matters to our ancestors - not to commune with correctness or to answer any question we are capable of asking. We cannot hold ten thousand words in short term memory; we cannot see in ultraviolet light; we cannot mentally rotate an object in the fourth dimension. And perhaps we cannot solve conundrums like free will and sentience."
How the Mind Works
Steven Pinker
"People consider evolutionary psychology kind of dispiriting in a lot of ways. Maybe people don't understand it entirely. But one sense in which I think it has almost the opposite effect is to remind us that maybe we should be a little humble about our ability to dismiss philosophical questions. I mean we just don't get everything. We probably by nature can't. And I think with respect to sentience I mean it's possible there are metaphysical laws - not in the Shirley Maclaine sense of metaphysics but in the once-respectable sense of metaphysics - that we just perhaps will never comprehend." -Robert Wright
.....
BREAKING!
Philae comet lander wakes up!!
How cool is that?!!!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jun 14, 2015 - 08:46am PT
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My students this term have just watched their first video on human evolution by Louise Leakey, and several of them have commented that they had no idea that there had been other forms of humans on the planet before us let alone several at the same time. They were completely intrigued and awed and humbled, and somewhat outraged that this was the first time they had been exposed to such information. They all felt it caused them to value human life more rather than less and to put more responsibility on Homo sapiens as the most intelligent surviving species. (These were unsolicited comments).
Of course several are trying to reconcile this new information with their religious traditions. The Catholics in particular were amazed to hear that the Catholic Church is not against the teaching of evolution since they were graduates of Catholic high schools and it was never mentioned. So far the general consensus is that one just has to push back causation somewhat further to the Big Bang and think of evolution as part of the Grand Design, and that the religious ethics they were taught still apply but should also now be added to animals.
As tvash was always saying, don't write the younger generation off.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 14, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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Seems to me there is no problem understanding consciousness' utility. Each day we face various threats to ourselves. Consciousness allows us to draw the barrier separating us from the world. We, therefore, know what it is we have to protect. If someone throws a rock at me I would want to know what is me and what is not.
Edit:
If this proves to define consciousness then any creature which acts to avoid danger, has consciousness.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 14, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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and that the religious ethics they were taught still apply but should also now be added to animals.
Jan, that's an interesting statement. Do you have any meaning you might add for clarity?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 14, 2015 - 10:14am PT
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"People consider evolutionary psychology kind of dispiriting in a lot of ways. Maybe people don't understand it entirely. But one sense in which I think it has almost the opposite effect is to remind us that maybe we should be a little humble about our ability to dismiss philosophical questions. I mean we just don't get everything. We probably by nature can't. And I think with respect to sentience I mean it's possible there are metaphysical laws - not in the Shirley Maclaine sense of metaphysics but in the once-respectable sense of metaphysics - that we just perhaps will never comprehend." -Robert Wright
I wouldn't disagree with this, though he seems to back peddle a bit, perhaps protecting his reputation by sniping at Shirley Maclaine.
You all should watch the video with Donald Hoffman I posted up thread. Science confronting the limitations of its methodology? Perhaps. Certainly being and sentience as more mysterious and strange than anyone might imagine.
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