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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 17, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
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There'll be a test on this tomorrow (Ward)
What a nightmare that would be.
So what about your imaginary number called "i" ..... (Duck)
Complex numbers were born in a cradle of skepticism and it took the collective genius of several famous mathematicians in the 1800s to explore and define complex analysis - the addition of the tools and concepts of calculus to the number system.
Again, in this sense, in the strict usage of "physical extent," never minding a phenomenons effect on external stuff, what IS a bosen or a photon? Energy? What is energy - never minding the measurement or the capacity to do work (JL)
I can tell this mystery gnaws at you, illusive and recondite and forever out of your reach. I hope that eventually you will find peace, accepting the inexplicable majesty of such wonders of nature. Irregardless.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 17, 2015 - 10:36pm PT
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that someone would get wrapped around an axle about the nature of energy (what IS IT / aside from its definition😳) but not mass is giving me the chuckles. Attempting to squeeze such concepts into simple analogies our five senses can experience doesnt get one very far, really.
the attributes by which photons are measured-momentum energy, polarity, spin, etc-may require a bit more training to grok than say, classical length or width, but even those simple measurements become strange in a relativistic, quantum world. Even if our brain needs to work overtime to ponder them, our bodies convert photons to warmth, images, snd sun burn without so much as a thought.
a photon's grsvitational influence touches the entire universe. No physical extent? perhaps dropping the silly term 'stuff' might loosen things up a bit there.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 18, 2015 - 12:04am PT
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1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 44 65 109
Is mathematics a thing?
It was surely around before earth ever came about.
And maybe before the big bang?
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Apr 18, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 18, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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Tvash: Attempting to squeeze such concepts into simple analogies our five senses can experience doesnt get one very far, really.
True. Metaphors is all you have to work with as far as language is concerned. There is no 1:1 connection between a concept and a phenomenon.
As for that notion “phenomenon,” no one can apparently say what they are, either. Published definitions contradict each other. If there are phenomena, then how should we measure them . . . even if we could come to agreement about what they are?
In my limited view of the thread, this is a crux that gets in the way of a basis for a conversation that we can move forward on.
It’s my understanding that “phenomena” simply means “appearances.” But what are those? It seems to me that getting from “phenomena” to “stuff” (as in material stuff) is the challenge in front of us.
So, to return to Tvash’s comment above, we can’t get very far—ever. It’s all beliefs at the end of the day. Those beliefs rely upon a vision. Science constitutes a vision.
Cintune:
(That video of the raccoon and water is mean.)
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Apr 18, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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Laughter is the corrective force which prevents us from becoming cranks.
~Henri Bergson
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 18, 2015 - 04:13pm PT
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Is mathematics a thing? It was surely around before earth ever came about. And maybe before the big bang? (Blue)
Good question. Apparently after the Big Bang not only did objects come into being but also relationships between those objects, what we now think of as social quantifications and physical laws. Man's increasing facility with language and logic seems to have led to written or verbal descriptions of those quantifications and laws, thus mathematics may have been born.
Of course, once mathematics was well established by the end of the 19th century it took off in all sorts of abstract directions and seemingly parted ways with its original forms, although those abstract theories may be glimpses of deeper realities in nature.
Just random thoughts . . . others here may have different perspectives. It is an open question, with Tegmark's mathematical universe one of the most bizarre speculations.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 18, 2015 - 04:39pm PT
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It’s my understanding that “phenomena” simply means “appearances.” But what are those? It seems to me that getting from “phenomena” to “stuff” (as in material stuff) is the challenge in front of us (MikeL)
Mike, you seem to be stuck in 18th century Kantian dialogue. Your metaphysics is one of bewilderment. When you speak of organizational principles and practices it is understandable that such considerations must arise, but to persist in this way in the world of physical science, at least Newtonian science, seems unproductive at best.
But what is productivity?
You are very articulate, however, and pose interesting metaphysical conundrums.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 18, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
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I wouldn’t use that word, “metaphysics,” John. it brings up a long list of definitions that I could argue with all day. (But, hey, it’s Saturday, and a glorious one at that.)
As an aside, I don’t understand how anyone cannot be bewildered. It’s a sign of life IMO. It’s sort of like the word, “disillusioned,” which means to have given up on the illusions.
If you were a Spaniard, you’d have a affection for mystery. Weird things happen in the lives of Spaniards, and they take it in stride. They don’t need to explain everything.
If you were an Italian in Rome, you’d have an appreciation for what is called “the good life,” which means you appreciate good wine, good food, good friends, and the willingness to just relax and take the time to fully enjoy them
You may call these things a Kantian dialogue from the 18th Century. I suppose that is one take on it. There are others.
I’d say there is nothing to do, no place to go, no one to be.
Our conversations would be so much better for me over a well-made plate of pasta and good red wine. In no time, we’d probably be crying our eyes out with laughter.
Be well.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 18, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
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Our conversations would be so much better for me over a well-made plate of pasta and good red wine. In no time, we’d probably be crying our eyes out with laughter
You bet!
;>)
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 18, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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“the good life,”
La Dolce Vita
I like the direct translation "the sweet life"
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 18, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
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although those abstract theories may be glimpses of deeper realities in nature.
Well if we were trying to suppose there was other Life between now and the BB, somewhere, somehow, sometime long before our mesaley 4Bil yrs of age. Especially the kind we have here on earth, with it,s environment of running/freezing/steaming water capability. Along with a flaming fire oxygenated atmosphere allowing the ability of breath, and hearing.
Wouldn't we have to assume that that Life(wherever/whenever) was progressing because of the same calculations/math as we use?
Even if earth didn't exist, Pi would be alive and well in our/their solar system.
It should be plausible that before any matter can move, mathematics MUST be in place.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 18, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
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Attempting to squeeze such concepts into simple analogies our five senses can experience doesnt get one very far, really
Dude, aren't you the one trying to adopt the Sun as ur Daddy?
Come'on, some spent out dead Sun is your body.. And the current burning Sun is your Life Bring'er, Evolutionalarally speaking. So there's much to be said from our senses about photons.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 18, 2015 - 09:45pm PT
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Wouldn't we have to assume that that Life(wherever or whenever) was progressing because of the same calculations or math as we use?
Life was progressing because the relationships were in play, before we codified them into mathematical symbols and proceeded with calculations. I think you are saying the natural relationships and processes were the mathematics without the symbols. Could be. The kind of mathematics framework Tegmark believes is the ultimate matrix of the universe.
For example, there is a fundamental process in which the instantaneous rate of change of a thing is proportional to the amount of that thing at a given time. This occurs in population growth, financial procedures, quantum effects, etc. Once the process is recognized it is symbolized into what many consider mathematics: dQ/dt=KQ(t) But you could argue the actual mathematics existed before.
Who knows . . .?
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jstan
climber
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Apr 18, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
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Posters here love to go on publically about the wonders of their education without the slightest understanding of who paid the freight.
I don't know of whom Jim is speaking. By its nature education takes place only by standing on the shoulders of others. That is the first thing one realizes.
Edit:
Really interesting discussion. Some new ways of looking at things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=236&v=mGBm5Ywjd5o
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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Healje, I'd be interested in hearing by what process you arrive at your pronouncements about meditation and no-thing and what you mean by those terms. My sense of it is you are guessing all across the board because your wonky descriptions sound a little like a porker talking about ball room dancing. There's a noise, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the phenomenon described. If you were to say, "There are no measurements nor yet figures to be derived from meditation itself," but applying worlds like "wisdom" to the equation moves you drift into Porkey's terrain - we can easily see why.
He said: Better read my last couple of pronouncements again...
--
Still waiting for you to pony up the process by which you arrived at your conclusions. As mentioned, I think you are merely speculating, then adopting a kind of faux avuncular tone to fob off guessing as thoughtful insight. Perhaps you think that the use of the mind in other than discursive ways is perforce the same as or renders results that are no greater than speculating.
And how about the fascinating business about the relationship between no mass and physical extent. Some people are believing "physical extent" means the effect a phenomenon has on the physical world, which is not the actual meaning of "extent." Extent has to do with basic properties of the phenomenon itself, NOT it's effect on the external world. It seems the real question is: If a phenomenon has no mass, is there any inherent properties to the thing itself that in turn creates an effect on external material reality? If so, WHAT are those inherent qualities? If we say that the inherent quality is "spin," what is spinning, from what does spin emerge, what sustains said spin and why is it - whatever "it" is - spinning.
JL
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Apr 20, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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What level of respect is appropriate to humans who haven't been showered with the rewards of your genetic success based on the random nature of birth ?
Man if that isn't hitting the nail on the head. As far as I can tell, everyone here is here because of the fortunate circumstances of birth, including me.
We all own computers, after all.
Imagine how hard the road would have been if you had been born in a poor black family in Mississippi, or perhaps a poor African nation. Just getting to college would require far more work and ability.
In that sense, we are ignoring very real human problems.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 20, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
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We all own computers, after all.
Stooopid computers.
In the old days one could communicate with anyone in the universe thru the proper channels.
Now a dazes stoopid computers full of virus and govt spies.
The computers are slower than snails.
The mind can travel faster than the speed of light.
Stoopid computers are cave man tools used by us fools thinking we are now advanced.
We all went back into the cave thinking we advanced,
That's why we have and need so many light bulbs.
We are so stoopid we live in the dark and have to artificially light everything up.
Stooopid computers .....
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