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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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Your whole notion that at the core of everything is 'no physical extent' hasn't a shred of science backing it, so-called caltech rideshares notwithstanding. Its self-serving bullsh#t.
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Nice rant, Dingus. But verily, you nor yet anyone else has yet to tell me what the physical extent IS of a photon or bosen etc. What is bullshit is insisting that because these phenomenon can occasion a physical effect or measurement, that means they must contain material mass. What mass, what stuff - and be specific.
The ironic thing is that per "wo wo," people keep asking for physical proof. For physical evidence, and lest some "thing" registers in the physical world it is not "real." Well a photon registers in the physical world, so what IS it? The "is" question is generally answered with a material "answer." It is "that," and we point to some stuff. But look what happens when we cannot point to any stuff. It's like the sky is falling.
JL
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 11:48am PT
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Historically humans have shown the same reluctance to accept new things as real, that is driving this thread. When the atomic theory was first introduced we did not accept atoms as being "real". They were a construct. If you all will listen to Joanne Hewett's discussion she deals with string theory's effect on the concept of physical extent. If string theory proves to be useful these strings will also prove to be useful and in that case physical extents of particles/strings can be as large as 0.1mm. Of course Heisenberg uncertainty will still obtain and we won't know precisely where the bloody things are.
We all will probably be dead before most of our questions have been answered. We can do one of two things.
1. Continue this discussion as it is going now, until death makes our lack of progress moot.
2. Accept that we are incredibly lucky to be living now in the middle of a revolution and try to soak up some of what is going on.
When an undergrad in the fifties I have to say I elected the first option. QM is so weird even some professors were not so sure it was "real". They were following Einstein which pretty much covers one's ass. That day is over. It ended in 1948 when Feynman figured out how to do the calculations required by Quantum Electrodynamics.
We are in a new world. Revel in it.
I first began to get the drift in 1959 on being introduced to functions of complex variables that required one to do line integrals around infinities, calculate residues, and do analytic continuations when the functions misbehaved. The person to lecture on this topic is Professor Gill, not me.
The denizens of ST have no idea of the resources available to them - on almost any subject.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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When the atomic theory was first introduced we did not accept atoms as being "real".
It was nothing new at all.
It was already known for thousands of years.
Modern so called science has been light years behind what was already general knowledge for millions of years past.
Modern science entered the cave instead of exiting it ......
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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Werner:
This is something I have never before heard. Please cite the papers showing australopithecus afarensis habitually and before fire was mastered, gathered around a rock to discuss the atomic model for matter. This is data that will set everyone on their ears.
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Apr 16, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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I believe what is trying to be said is that australopithecus afarensis knew what it was (whatever that means), more accurately didn't have to know what it was. Most of us humans are lost in needing to know which is a double edged sword but a sword none the less.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 16, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
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John S., As I'm sure you have surmised, Mr Duck lives on a different astral plane, one I was privileged to visit occasionally over forty years ago. The experience was too heady, however, and beyond my ability to describe, so I did not loiter there but returned to our realm, exhausted.
How he manages to remain relatively unaffected is a mystery.
;>)
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
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I believe what is trying to be said is that australopithecus afarensis knew what it was (whatever that means), more accurately didn't have to know what it was. Most of us humans are lost in needing to know which is a double edged sword but a sword none the less.
This post recalls something of which I have heard. Possibly the funniest event ever to happen. At a physics colloquium a question arose as to what exactly Feynman had meant in a paper. An extended and very earnest debate ensued featuring Pauli as one of the participants.
Feynman, who was sitting there, made no comment.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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Dingus - as mentioned, I was not asking you to list the ways that a photon effects other stuff, rather I was asking you to list or break down the actual physicality or materiality of the photon itself, irregardless of what it hits or does not hit. When they say that a photo has no rest mass, at all, what do you suspect that means a materialist POV?
And John said: The denizens of ST have no idea of the resources available to them - on almost any subject.
What this betrays is the simple and total identification of your attention with the rational or discursive part of your mind, the one that says to "shut up and start calculating."
There are many resources available to you per flexing other aspects of your mind, but so long as the identification remains with the discursive, and virtue is attached to same, then the very resources you just mentioned remain untapped.
JL
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
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This post recalls something of which I have heard. Possibly the funniest event ever to happen. At a physics colloquium a question arose as to what exactly Feynman had meant in a paper. An extended and very earnest debate ensued featuring Pauli as one of the participants.
Feynman, who was sitting there, made no comment.
Reminds me of a bunch of Rabbis sitting around arguing about the meaning of a passage in the Torah. One must have faith in their theories... proof and vindication comes later.
A priest a rabbi and an evangelical are all sitting around arguing about the moment when life begins. The priest says life begins in the individual bodies of man and women therefore no masturbation. The evangelical says life only begins when the sperm and the egg are one and so abortion is out of the question. The Rabbi scratches his head looks around and says life really doesn't begin until the kids have moved out and the dog dies.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 03:49pm PT
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Paul:
Do we detect a cynic there?
JL:
You are quite right. When I said we have resources I did refer only to the discursive resources. You bring up a good point.
Can the non-discursive resources advise you to do things like finish your tie-in knot? If I ever tie in again I will surely want to employ all resources. Certainly those that have physical extent.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 09:03pm PT
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that discussion pretty much shows that the science of matter can be slippery and fleeting
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 16, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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Jstan: Please cite the papers . . .
As if papers are the basis of your knowledge or the knowledge you think “you know.” (Most of what you know comes from what other people have told you or written down.) It would be more accurate to say what “you believe.”
The reign of experts in narrow fields occurs in micro territories. If you are a bona fide expert, there is probably only a handful of people who can comment and criticize on your work or thinking, often less than 20.
The world does not need more experts. We have plenty with much education and experience in their narrow fields, and by that, the understanding of our existence is hopelessly fragmented, biased, narrow-minded, and too often professionally self-serving. “More knowledge” is not helping. What we’re missing is wisdom.
What we could really use are generalists and integrators who can see more than their narrow areas, who can connect the dots to paint broader and more inclusive pictures, who can readily translate one language or one culture into another’s understanding, who can place themselves and us in a context from many perspectives, who can help to forge consensus because they can see other viewpoints, who can put things together rather than take them apart, who can value differences from the multiplicity yet see it as just one thing. We are desperate for people who are integrated themselves, unified, with rock solid sense of identity that comes from knowing themselves deeply. The people we are looking for are salts of the earth.
Narrower and narrower is making us narrower and narrower.
Pffffttttttt!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 16, 2015 - 10:11pm PT
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Mass or energy, if it can be measured it has a 'physical' extent:
P.S. Don't shine a laser in your eyes or photons will become nothing...
What we’re missing is wisdom.
Unfortunately there is no wisdom in no thing. That said, if you meditate long enough you will gain insights into your own nature which can open doors to the opportunity for wisdom. But there is nothing to be learned or gained directly from no thing and that's because it's a perfect and utterly impenetrable mirror.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 16, 2015 - 10:22pm PT
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We are desperate for people who are integrated themselves, unified, with rock solid sense of identity that comes from knowing themselves deeply (MikeL)
Doc Savage fits the bill, plus strength of character and body. As a PhD chemist he could contribute commentary on physical extent as well.
On ST his avatar is BURT BRONSON.
Awaken this giant . . .
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Apr 16, 2015 - 10:27pm PT
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Bravo! MikeL.
Well said.
feralfae
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 16, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
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We are desperate for people who are integrated themselves, unified, with rock solid sense of identity that comes from knowing themselves deeply...
...and not evil or bent on ideas which may be harmful to others.
And what if people come to such a state, but only by way of a highly monastic existence - are they actually 'helping' or just staying out of the way?
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
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We are desperate for people who are integrated themselves, unified, with rock solid sense of identity that comes from knowing themselves deeply...
MikeL:
Are you not describing yourself here? Everyone defines themselves thusly.
Oh and papers on a subject present both data and a traceable record of how conclusions are supported. Your first sentence seems mixed up.
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