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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:08pm PT
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Even Jesus couldn't open that cockpit door.
Yes, because he was made of straw.
Given infinite time and infinite material you get infinite nonsense.
Ha, what an athletic argument! I can certainly think of another place you'll find infinite nonsense.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:13pm PT
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Mar 30, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
Given infinite time and infinite material you get infinite nonsense.
Perfect.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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I suppose this means we can expect unicorns at some point, then.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
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Rainbow colored ones.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
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That nature is virtuous and humanity, particularly civilized humanity, is corrupt and arrogant is a philosophical system manifested to fill the vacuum of a discredited Christianity in the 19th C. and is religion no less than Christianity itself.
Nature is not 'virtuous' and humanity is not 'civilized'.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
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Some conference in Sedona is missing its keynote speaker.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
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The inevitability of mind is a sublime consideration as it says something slightly disquieting with regard to the certainty of the atheist.
Nonsense. The 'inevitability of mind' is clearly on display even in a cursory look at behavior up the taxonomy of life. Hell, the 'inevitability of mind' is painfully obvious studying C. elegans, flatworms and Fruit Flies. Nothing remotely disquieting about it.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Mar 30, 2015 - 04:57pm PT
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When you describe the "anthropocentric arrogance" of someone you're articulating the idea that humanity is set apart from nature. You wouldn't describe the self centeredness of any other creature on this planet as a quality of arrogance. You'd describe that celebration of the self as perfectly in tune with the cycle of nature... How is it that only humanity is in some way inferior to the rest of nature through its self centered arrogance?
The worship of nature is a religion like any other and it resonates behind what many here call science.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
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When you describe the "anthropocentric arrogance" of someone you're articulating the idea that humanity is set apart from nature.
Quite the opposite, it is you and others who can't bear the idea of such a 'gifted' creation as just another animal.
How is it that only humanity is in some way inferior to the rest of nature through its self centered arrogance?
Not inferior, just delusional.
The worship of nature is a religion like any other and it resonates behind what many here call science.
You keep missing not only the mark, but the entire wall it's mounted on. I don't worship nature and science is not religion no matter how many times religious folk attempt to paint it as such.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
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Nope.
We don't 'worship' nature. That would be religion.
We 'appreciate' it. That is not religion.
Engrish, Paul! Learn it!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
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I don't worship nature and science is not religion no matter how many times religious folk attempt to paint it as such.
The romantic movement and its worship of nature has permeated western culture to such a degree that it's almost impossible for its acolytes to recognize in themselves. Kind of like a smell you get used to. I'm not "religious folk" but I know em when I see em.
Next time you're in the Sierra and you're standing at the top of some peak or climb looking into prodigious space and you're plainly too moved to speak, ask yourself what is the source of this feeling?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
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HEY Jan!
i thought of you today, and here you are:)
Tomorrow there is a segment on NPR about women in Afghanistan climbing the highest peaks in Afghanistan. In todays commercial one woman said, "i like climbing because the mountain doesn't take into consideration that i am a woman, i am just a person getting the job done."
It sounded cool, i can't wait!
Cheers!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
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We 'appreciate' it. That is not religion.
Really, what is it that you appreciate? Its consoling, reconciling quality? Its beauty, the sense of wonder it elicits in you? Or am I describing here the experience of good Catholics at mass?
Engrish, Paul! Learn it!
I'm struggling as it's a second language.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
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We all understand clearly that many on this thread hope and pray that materialism will "explain" all of reality (JL)
Once again, the projection of desperation that must be felt by the author onto the rest of us. Moderation, John (Buddha).
Nice post, Ms Sullly!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
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The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees
Is my destroyer.
And I am dumb to tell the crooked rose
My youth is bent by the same wintry fever.
The force that drives the water through the rocks
Drives my red blood; that dries the mouthing streams
Turns mine to wax.
And I am dumb to mouth unto my veins
How at the mountain spring the same mouth sucks.
The hand that whirls the water in the pool
Stirs the quicksand; that ropes the blowing wind
Hauls my shroud sail.
And I am dumb to tell the hanging man
How of my clay is made the hangman's lime.
The lips of time leech to the fountain head;
Love drips and gathers, but the fallen blood
Shall calm her sores.
And I am dumb to tell a weather's wind
How time has ticked a heaven round the stars.
And I am dumb to tell the lover's tomb
How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm. DT
Dylan Thomas on the agony of being apart rather than a part.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Mar 30, 2015 - 05:54pm PT
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Really, what is it that you appreciate? Its consoling, reconciling quality? Its beauty, the sense of wonder it elicits in you? Or am I describing here the experience of good Catholics at mass?
Catholicism in particular has done a ripping good job of co-opting our response biases, substituting its lovely architecture and so on to evoke the sense of awe and wonder that nature serves up with no obligation. Then again, natives of areas with big mountains and such often could care less about the scenery. So just where those emotional reactions come from and what purpose they serve is the question. One thing for sure there are any number of two-bit preachers ready to turn them to their own ends.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 30, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
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“Answers,” sure. Thousands of them. Millions of them. An answer for every being.
But the question was this:
It’s even questionable that there is anything at all
Your question.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 30, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
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The rub is there are some aspects of reality that you cannot "look" at and measure in the normal way.
Agreed, depending on what you mean by "normal way."
You are likely quite safe from having Macbeth explained at the molecular level.
Where do you get these ideas?
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Mar 30, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
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The Human Amygdala and the Induction and Experience of Fear
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210015083
Summary
Although clinical observations suggest that humans with amygdala damage have abnormal fear reactions and a reduced experience of fear [1, 2 and 3], these impressions have not been systematically investigated. To address this gap, we conducted a new study in a rare human patient, SM, who has focal bilateral amygdala lesions [4]. To provoke fear in SM, we exposed her to live snakes and spiders, took her on a tour of a haunted house, and showed her emotionally evocative films. On no occasion did SM exhibit fear, and she never endorsed feeling more than minimal levels of fear. Likewise, across a large battery of self-report questionnaires, 3 months of real-life experience sampling, and a life history replete with traumatic events, SM repeatedly demonstrated an absence of overt fear manifestations and an overall impoverished experience of fear. Despite her lack of fear, SM is able to exhibit other basic emotions and experience the respective feelings. The findings support the conclusion that the human amygdala plays a pivotal role in triggering a state of fear and that the absence of such a state precludes the experience of fear itself.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 30, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
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The experience of this former Catholic at mass was a sore ass, sweaty soaked shirt, with any luck, a little nap. Not that I don't like Teach Your Children on a 12 string.
I appreciate nature for what it is, when it is.
That can vary a bit. You never know what might turn up.
The source of our awe is likely much older than our species, given that a dog enjoys an expansive view as much as I do.
We're wired to love our home.
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