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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 21, 2015 - 11:29am PT
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Coming to a fine link near you, 19 May 2015...
The Soul of the Marionette,
by John Gray
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 21, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
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Once we let go of the notion of free will, we are free of all negative thoughts about other people, like The Chief, Ward, or TGT!
That's a really silly thing to say. You can only be trolling.
I personally don't possess any more negative thoughts directed at other people than you do, regardless of my philosophical position on " free will".It's a rather puerile notion to think that someone with whom you disagree can only be motivated by bad thoughts about others simply because they are adult enough to consider how society might best deal with thieves, murderers, and child molesters--- with the end in mind of preventing such individuals from destroying innocent lives.
You are not free of negative thoughts about others my friend. The only thing you are free of is putting yourself out there on the line as regards a very difficult subject . And it does no good to hide behind a discussion of free will in this context.
The same thing applies to the "we" you have included in your comment.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mar 21, 2015 - 04:53pm PT
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Get outta here , he was serious. Ask him.
Nevertheless , I like the Moosedrool-meister
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 03:44am PT
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Take for example;
deadbeat dads, gold diggers, heartless sociopaths, innocent victims, random acts of indiscretion, police violence, wanton violence, collateral damage...
Are they all a result of predeterminism, free will, social injustice, or the heat of battle?
'The Road Raven'
He started on the 405,
And he swooped to the big divide,
Didn't stop over Angels Crest,
Til he tasted of the best,
A deer was hit just past the 5,
Unlucky not to be alive,
Would keep the Raven fed,
And soon at ninety nine,
He continued to survive,
All the way the 46,
On the rabbits he would thrive,
Till he got to the 101,
And ran into an ex-wive,
And you probably know the rest,
Alimony, it ain't no jive.
"Uh uh. I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well to tell you the truth in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?"
The idea of a predetermined universe allows for way too many people to be irresponsible for way too much crap,
as they do anyway.
Still, I dont believe in luck.
I absolutely believe we posses free will,
in any case.
-bushman
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 22, 2015 - 06:57am PT
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I absolutely believe we posses free will,
in any case.
And you might have it.
And it would be convenient for us robots to have someone to blame.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:36am PT
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And it would be convenient for us robots to have someone to blame.
Get in line...
Or,
Welcome to my robot army, now get in line.
MH2...
Isn't that some kind of Avian Virus?
'The Short life of the court Jester'
And to the king the joker spoke,
As jokingly the joker joked,
"Your grace, I meant no disrespect,
I kid you not, that is no joke."
His head did roll,
The blood did flow,
With embers floating all about...
Flickering they'd go.
Another log went on the fire,
The king would have the final joke.
-bushman
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:55am PT
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MH2...
Is that some kind of Avian Virus?
Could be, could bee...
However, as I remember it, I got directed to this Forum when local climber/historian Anders Ourom began a thread about Squamish. This was before Bushman's time. Anders went by the user name Mighty Hiker. He was often referred to by other posters as MH. I chose MH2 for myself to give people an idea of where I was coming from. That was before I knew what MH stood for since I did not pay much attention to details of the site.
So it was not an unconstrained choice. You are free to make of that what you will.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:56am PT
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In any discussion of free will and morality, you might find his discussions of interest. This is one among many of his talks available on YouTube:
Daniel Dennett Is Free Will an Illusion December 12, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh8o6L05iGo
enjoy
feralfae
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 08:22am PT
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I'll have to check it out, thanks Feralfae.
MH2,
Funny how those things work out.
At my local RC club where I race model planes, when I started at it ten years ago the contest director gave me the pilot's call sign of 'bushman' in deference to my tree service ownership. It was a friendly dig at my occupation...I would have preferred a more glamorous title, but knew that among this crowd the nickname could have been worse.
Bushwhacker, the whacker, bushy, bush.... I cringe at the last one, having been a liberal my whole life. But I keep my mouth shut. It's actually fun to learn how to endure insults, criticism, and ribald comraderie, and then dole it back out much the same as in my climbing years, though my skin was much thinner in my youth.
Same as a lot of us do here.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Mar 22, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
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Thank you for the link ^ to that excellent Ted Talk, HFCS.
I want a vest! :)
feralfae
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:01pm PT
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'The Domino Theory'
I absolutely believe we posses free will,
in any case.
-bushman
Well, as it turns out I might be wrong about that, and as usual, I've been wrong before. I realized this when I noticed that in the evening whenever I try to watch a movie, read a book or some other long passage of writing, or view a YouTube video I fall asleep. I wake myself and begin again only to fall asleep again. I tell myself repeatedly to stay awake, yet I find that I'm unable to. If I were driving an automobile I would have to crank the music and roll down the window to stay away, or pull over lest I crash.
The realization came to me tonight that in all my years I have been unable to exercise free will in every circumstance, try as I might, even with strong motives and the best of intentions. It's not a matter of will power, mind you, for I have certainly been able to follow through with many goals I have set for myself in life. No, this is what happens when I need sleep and I'm in repose. My conscious mind simply turns off like a light bulb, regardless a conscious decision to remain awake. The unconscious mind has decided for me at that point, overriding my supposed idea of free will.
This pretty much sucks because regardless of my belief in science my principles regarding free will and personal accountability will have to go out the window as I consider the deeper ramifications of destiny and a pre-deterministic universe.
Must have been in the cards all along.
The last bastions of my preconceived ideas about reality are beginning to fall away like a carefully prearranged row of dominos that divide into separate rows as they go along with each row disappearing into the void at random intervals and each row representing a different preconceived notion of the nature of existence. In short, I'm gradually finding that I know next to nothing about our place here in the universe, or maybe it's just a brain tumor.
But I still don't believe in luck. Or do I? There goes another row of dominoes.
-bushman
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
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The unconscious mind has decided
This is stupid.
The mind is never unconscious.
Other wise how could it even decide.
You are bewildered and have no clue what consciousness really is and it's source nor what free will really is.
This is the whole problem with modern science.
They have no clue and are just plain guessing ......
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
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No disrespect WB, but I suppose you have all the answers?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:49pm PT
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I hold people responsible for their actions, but I don't think it's their fault.
You don't think ..... and
The world is just robots .....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 23, 2015 - 04:45am PT
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Ok, so I'm one part Polish, two parts Athiest, three parts Viking, and the rest of me is just bewildered...
Good thing I'm not more bewildered or the rest of me would be one pissed off Polish Atheist Viking!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 23, 2015 - 07:42am PT
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Scientific principles do support the possibility of free will or at least imperfect predeterminism.
The nervous system is electrical and molecular in scale. This puts parts of it at least possibly within the realm of quantum mechanical variability.
The strong impression of being able to "make" a decision is pretty hard to shake although I cannot make a perfect test for it. If that is an illusion it feels like a critical one for effective human social interactions.
That it appears to me that I can make decisions on some things is one of the things makes me strongly suspect that science is missing something fundamental regarding consciousness.
As a student of the scientific process it would be very foolish to assume that science is close to having this stuff figured out.
Cmon.. we just found out in the last decade or so that we can't even observe over half the actual universe right around us. Castenada was right about that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 23, 2015 - 08:04am PT
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"Scientific principles do support the possibility of free will or at least imperfect predeterminism... The nervous system is electrical and molecular in scale. This puts it within the realm of quantum mechanical variability... -climbski2
With all due respect, your statements are novice, akin to a once in a year gym climber. Sorry.
There is a world of difference in experience between one who's worked the subject 20 plus years and a once-a-year-for-a-few-hours amateur.
Sorry. You should ask yourself. "Really, how much due dilgence have I given this subject?" "How much are my public pronouncements (stated as fact) more a part of the inertia of ignorance problem than a solution?"
Going forward the biggest challenge for public acceptance of our evolutionary mechanistic nature is this. For some reason, unlike climbing and sports play in general (not to mention countless other arts and trades where expertise / experience actually matters), pretty much everyone thinks they're an expert in the subjects of consciousness, morality, volition, the natures thereof. Nevermind the underlying physics and chemistry and information processing science and neuroscience and psychology - what do they have to do with it? /sarc
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