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WBraun
climber
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The growth of knowledge in the past 150 years is downright astonishing to me.
Yes, the brain will be over taxed by all the data and you'll get nice headache.
Why you think there's so much aspirin.
But then there is knowing which is pure, unquantifiable and ultimately more useful.
That knowing is the exploration of the consciousness of this thread ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Darn fructose, you beat me to that post by seconds!
So here's a couple of quotes.Strangely enough, they sound somewhat like things largo has been saying.
I don’t actually argue that consciousness is “a reality” beyond the grasp of science. I just think that it is conceptually irreducible — that is, I don’t think we can fully understand it in terms of unconscious information processing. Consciousness is “subjective”— not in the pejorative sense of being unscientific, biased or merely personal, but in the sense that it is intrinsically first-person, experiential and qualitative.
The primary approach to understanding consciousness in neuroscience entails correlating changes in its contents with changes in the brain. But no matter how reliable these correlations become, they won’t allow us to drop the first-person side of the equation. The experiential character of consciousness is part of the very reality we are studying. Consequently, I think science needs to be extended to include a disciplined approach to introspection.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Strangely enough, they sound somewhat like things largo has been saying.
Jan, with all due respect, that and the rest sound like what the sciences of the mental life (incl the science of meditation) have been saying for years.
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We continue to witness a rebranding of "spirituality" - just as I've suggested on this site going back a long time now as possible means of "progress" in these areas. Today this push is stronger than ever. Harris is helping along these lines.
Decades from now, so-called stock phrases might include, for eg, scientific spirituality (meaning science-based spirituality) or spirituality system or modern spirituality or nonreligious spirituality (if religious systems still exist) or nontheistic spirituality (if theisms still exist). A breath of fresh air, just what the planet needs, I say.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Harris is so predictable
He learns something from the bible then trys to go the opposite direction.
we all know what its called anti-christ
Who's ur Daddy?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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The objective significance of the picture is that it provides a map from which we can make predictions and plan for the future.
The subjective significance is as you like it. Some find it breathtaking that, from our tiny little rock, we can perceive such grandeur. Others remain unmoved by things so far removed from their everyday existence.
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WBraun
climber
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Modern science as just another dogma that steals IDEAS and then calls it their own.
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MH2
climber
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I don’t actually argue that consciousness is “a reality” beyond the grasp of science. I just think that it is conceptually irreducible — that is, I don’t think we can fully understand it in terms of unconscious information processing. Consciousness is “subjective”— not in the pejorative sense of being unscientific, biased or merely personal, but in the sense that it is intrinsically first-person, experiential and qualitative.
We don't need as broad and vague a concept as consciousness to question the limits of scientific understanding. Could we 'fully understand' The Divine Comedy in terms of unconscious information processing?
Science is not a program to understand and explain everything. Science is a way to ask well-defined questions which can be answered with the tools we have. A marvelous aspect of scientific inquiry is the way some of the answers surprise us by going against our expectations.
It is best to resist the temptation to stake out territory where science will not take us. But it is also good to be humble in the face of mystery and simply grateful for beauty.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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"And you obliviously have no clue to what else there is that can't be seen."
That's like calling someone "Shorty" because they're not 50 feet tall.
Mike L may not find meaning in anything (just experience!), but he is the God of Value Judgments.
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jstan
climber
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Incomprehensible.
We don't know how even one brain works. Brains are wondrously complex networks with almost unending ability to make new neuronal connections; a process we call learning. A learning that is survival oriented and takes place from birth onward. Both the brain and learning experience are unique to the individual and neither is accessible to others. Who knows whether what I say I am thinking is what I am actually thinking. Indeed the individual does not in fact know all it is thinking.
The assumption something I have thought is a reality or a truth for another is just that. An assumption. One we all make based upon the belief what I am thinking is ME and since I know ME I know it is the truth. Then you have to garnish that with all the behavioral patterns we develop as members of a society. You can get arguments purely for arguments' sake - if one is not careful. Arguments that outlast ST threads by orders of magnitude.
What you do with your brain, whether drug use, meditation, religion, or even worse things - is your problem. If your descriptive ability is sufficient to get others interested in what you have been doing, to that extent your experience is of interest to others. There is no TRUTH anywhere. We are like a billion atoms all scattering off each other in events not known. We developed statistical mechanics to get average properties in such processes. Just as we write and enforce laws to deal with behavioral space.
Scientific arguments are quite different. There is hope of an answer. Only hope. If everyone keeps coming up with measurements that, within the limits of precision, say the world is a particular way, we err if we conclude the world is exactly this way. We might better conclude only that if we assume it is this way, our predictions will be the best we can get. Could be wrong but they are the best that is available. Better cannot be had. This capability is not of trivial importance. We are after all
prediction machines.
Far more important than "absolute truth." Absolute truth is a form of self-delusion.
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WBraun
climber
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That's like calling someone "Shorty" because they're not 50 feet tall.
Well in that case shorty.
Get a ladder and look over the fence .......
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WBraun
climber
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There is no TRUTH anywhere.
Absolute truth is a form of self-delusion.
Says the guy who just made an "absolute" ......
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I'm limited to a 30 foot ladder, and I don't have an in with the Greenwood fire station.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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I just want to know... are those eeg sensors on baby... or electrodes, lol!
Resistance is futile.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Resistance is futile.
Ever get a sense of deja vue? What flashed through my mind is that 200 years from now, the politicians will be trying to control everyone's brains with electrodes, and most likely Harrisism will be a new religion or at least a new sect of Buddhism, and there will of course be people bowing down and making offerings to golden statues of him. He'll be no more responsible for the whackiness of his followers than Jesus or Buddha is.
Of course there will also be people trying to maintain the original teachings and spirit of Harris. The question is whether there will be more of them or more of the whackos. History is not encouraging.
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WBraun
climber
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But still ....
Everyone's soul knows what is genuine ......
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Yes, in a 'genuine Corinthian Leather' kind of way.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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the politicians will be trying to control everyone's brains with electrodes
The politicians or Skynet?
most likely Harrisism will be a new religion...
How about we call Harrisism... Regenesis... and the new religion... superligion instead?
"In the beginning was the word."
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there will of course be people bowing down and making offerings to golden statues of him
Good thing this only "flashed" through your mind, Jan. Sounds awful. I like to think future generations will be a lot smarter than that.
History is not encouraging.
Well, as we both know but tend to lose sight of... there's (a) the history of the past and (b) the history of the future. Keep the evidence-based faith, Jan. IT GETS BETTER.
(If you haven't already, read Pinker's latest book.)
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WBraun
climber
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No ....
In the beginning was "sound" ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Regenesis and superligion. I like the idea behind those. My own research and notes have been to show the similarities of experience and non verbal symbols behind the meditative experiences of people from many different religions. Different religions, same human physiology and experiences.Harris is going beyond any religion. I wish I were around even 50 years from now to see how this is all working out.
I say and he says, that he is going beyond any religion and yet his vocabulary is from Buddhism. The next step for him would be to develop a new vocabulary that is not connected even to that tradition.And of course, the question the interviewer brought up about what to do with people who have an experience of a personal presence while meditating - the theistically inclined.
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