What is "Mind?"

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MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 10, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
Jim: . . . metaphysically lop off my head.

I think you mean metaphorically, not metaphysically.

(What would be your "metaphysical head" hmm?)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 10, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
this is my understanding dilemma,

If awareness is a model of attention, how is it simplified? How is it inaccurate? Well, one easy way to keep track of attention is to give it a spatial structure — to treat it like a substance that flows from a source to a target. In reality, attention is a data-handling method used by neurons. It isn’t a substance and it doesn’t flow. But it is a neat accounting trick to model attention in that way; it helps to keep track of who is attending to what. And so the intuition of ghost material — of ectoplasm, mind stuff that is generated inside us, that flows out of the eyes and makes contact with things in the world — makes some sense. Science commonly regards ghost-ish intuitions to be the result of ignorance, superstition, or faulty intelligence. In the attention schema theory, however, they are not simply ignorant mistakes. Those intuitions are ubiquitous among cultures because we humans come equipped with a handy, simplified model of attention. That model informs our intuitions. Giovanni

if Attention isn't suppose to have substance or flow, how isn't that ghostly?

"Substance" and "flow" sounds like matter and energy to me.
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 11, 2014 - 09:45am PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/opinion/sunday/hit-the-reset-button-in-your-brain.html
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 11, 2014 - 09:46am PT
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/2014/08/11/the-brainwave-that-lets-you-recognize-whats-new-in-the-world/
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 10:24am PT
I'd be very interesting in learning who these other authors are who previously came up with the attention schema idea - you know, from your limited reading.

For the sake of completeness and all. I'd like to read their work as well.

Graziano does a thorough review of outstanding theories and literature in the second half of his book and funny - I don't recall him mentioning that his attention schema as being borrowed from anyone.

TIA
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 11, 2014 - 11:18am PT
By "disjoint" do you mean the physical body isn't responsible for producing attention or awareness? (BB)

Of course not. I meant from each other, different neural circuits.


I also don't know where jgill was in 1957 but I'm pretty sure he was around then (Jan)

Romping up the direct Jensen Ridge on Symmetry Spire, finding three different ways to climb the "crux pitch", just for fun!


;>)
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
You don't seem to grok the salient differences between Graziano and Jayne. The attention schema isn't an expert system that focuses attention at all. It is a model of attention, coupled with attention via a strange loop. The awareness schema can compete with all the other top down and bottom up stimuli bombarding our attention, but those signals may or may not win that competition.

Payne's is just a rehashing of the homunculus - and as such seems to suffer from the infinitely nested problem. In any case, it is really a single component system consisting solely of attention (which is dynamically focused by a system embedded within its own circuitry - the 'expert' system that Payne describes). The attention schema can weigh in, but it doesn't control attention - it describes what, within out attention, we are aware of - what we feel as reality.

Graziano cites previous work in out of body experiences - he lays no claim to it.

Graziano also goes into the specific brain structures involved in all of this - but I haven't read that part of the book yet.

You, on the other hand, haven't read enough Graziano to make even a cursory critique of his work. You apparently don't even get the basics of the theory, never mind the details.

Look, I know the uninformed, shoot from the hip thing is your style.

It's tedious. Do some homework.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
^^^Awareness schema?

i thought it was an Attention Schema?

maybe you had better reboot ur model?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
good catch, thanks. Typo.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Cintunes link shows the brain uses Gamma-rays in its operation.

my understanding thus far the brain's mass requires;
Water
Oxygen
Blood
Chemical Synapses
Electrical Synapses
Gamma-Rays
More?

Inorder to figure out if i'm having chicken or oriental flavored ramen.

shouldn't be THAT hard to figure out how?
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 11, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
I rather LIKE "awareness schema" over "attention schema." The former gets to the rubric of the conversations, I'd say. When one speaks of "mind" contemplatively, it seems so much more than a question of attention. Attention is a tool and a skill. Awareness isn't either.

I understand how we might be able to model the attention process, but awareness discussed similarly would constitute a categorical error IMO.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 11, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
Gamma waves:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_wave

Not gamma rays:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_ray
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
Our kiddy torture trip just got postponed 3 days because the air quality from the Carlton Complex fire is so bad in Mazama. We may have to head to Canada. So far it's burned 400 sq mi. and 300 homes.

This has become a regular summer season thing in recent years.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
On the brighter side - I see morels in my future.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
They got a machine that will put your brain into the Meditative State.
No more need to practice!!

from the above link:
Experiments on Tibetan Buddhist monks have shown a correlation between transcendental mental states and gamma waves.[14][15] A suggested explanation is based on the fact that the gamma is intrinsically localized. Neuroscientist Sean O'Nuallain suggests that this very existence of synchronized gamma indicates that something akin to a singularity - or, to be more prosaic, a conscious experience - is occurring.[14] This work adduces experimental and simulated data to show that what meditation masters have in common is the ability to put the brain into a state in which it is maximally sensitive.

As hinted above, gamma waves have been observed in Tibetan Buddhist monks. A 2004 study took eight long-term Tibetan Buddhist practitioners of meditation and, using electrodes, monitored the patterns of electrical activity produced by their brains as they meditated. The researchers compared the brain activity of the monks to a group of novice meditators (the study had these subjects meditate an hour a day for one week prior to empirical observation). In a normal meditative state, both groups were shown to have similar brain activity. However, when the monks were told to generate an objective feeling of compassion during meditation, their brain activity began to fire in a rhythmic, coherent manner, suggesting neuronal structures were firing in harmony. This was observed at a frequency of 25–40 Hz, the rhythm of gamma waves. These gamma-band oscillations in the monk’s brain signals were the largest seen in humans (apart from those in states such as seizures). Conversely, these gamma-band oscillations were scant in novice meditators. Though, a number of rhythmic signals did appear to strengthen in beginner meditators with further experience in the exercise, implying that the aptitude for one to produce gamma-band rhythm is trainable.[16]

Such evidence and research in gamma-band oscillations may explain the heightened sense of consciousness, bliss, and intellectual acuity subsequent to meditation. Notably, meditation is known to have a number of health benefits: stress reduction, mood elevation, and increased life expectancy of the mind and its cognitive functions. The current Dalai Lama meditates for four hours each morning, and he says that it is hard work. He elaborates that if neuroscience can construct a way in which he can reap the psychological and biological rewards of meditation without going through the practice each morning, he would be apt to adopt the innovation.[17] The aforementioned study in which gamma states were induced in mice may be a step in this direction.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
3D brain tissue, grown in a petri dish, stays alive for up to two months:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140811151119.htm

The end is nigh.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
R.I.P. Robin Williams......

Don't ya wish you could download his brain's memory's?

Man!! Why would a brain like that want to turn itself off????

i'll bet God's laughing a little more now
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 11, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
Don't ya wish you could download his brain's memory's?


Speak for yourself!


;>\
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
One of my high school girlfriends slept with him, so, in a manner of speaking, there's some shared consciousness there.

The expert system that constructs one's attention schema is part of attention. Attention is a data handling system, not data in and of itself. It creates an output - the attention schema, which is a data set that answers the question "Am I aware of this?".

The dataset, in turns, feedbacks to attention - the data handling system, and affects its operation. This is the strange loop I referred to.





jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 11, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
Hey JGill isn't "Reduction of a Multidimensional Space onto a Two-Dimensional Array" a subject of topology? (FM)

Maybe a combination of statistical data analysis and linear algebra. Probably not topology, but a topologist might disagree! Seems to be a problem of setting up a new set of axis that optimize variance.
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