What is "Mind?"

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WBraun

climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 07:11pm PT
The light never ever has gone out and is impossible.

Only in ignorance and in delusion does it appear that way ......
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Dec 6, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
Hello folks - there is no evidence of a "weak force of consciousness" or evidence of consciousness existing outside of a brain. This is problem #1 with this quantum religiousity.
Jim Clipper

climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
Probably this sense of self is an evolutionary survival mechanism which can only be overcome in very special circumstances. So far it would seem that the desire for survival is a stronger evolutionary force than the weak force of universal consciousness ?


To me that seems a very interesting question. Maybe one that has been asked, with different languages and world views for at least a few centuries. Even before an understanding of evolution.

There may be an answer in group selection theory, or game theory. However, reconstructing the past leads to just so stories. Moreover, the tests necessary to "prove it", maybe excluding mathematical models, are often instinctively rejected, perhaps because of our sense of self, or what we hold on to as humanity.

I would ask weak force? humility? Empathy and altruism.

The question of self/other is very old, very human. Then again, I lose something by thinking that it's manifestation in the human species is very old. We're a blip.

I was wondering, are we the only sentient species because we were the first, and we "won". Human evolution has been found to be more complex than anticipated, by the "self examining" human scientists. Neanderthals.

I'm starting to ramble. I was thinking about SETI. Also, I think that some folks have the benefit of math. Is math real, a description, both? Some ideas are too abstract for my brain, but I can't complexly argue with the numbers.

edit: Don Paul, you may underestimate the power of "love"

edit edit: the unwavering Wernerness makes me smile

edit edit edit: It was probably something to see in full solo mode.



..
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 6, 2018 - 08:39pm PT
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 07:20am PT
When the living entity comes into contact with the material plane its original consciousness becomes distorted due to the material energies illusionary non permanence of which are direct reflections of the absolute.

The gross material plane becomes a hall of mirrors due to the mind and its dualistic nature.

When the body and mind are purified and controlled by BONAFIDE meditative disciplines the absolute truth will then start to reveal itself as it is.

Everything will be seen as they are and NOT how we think they are,

just as an intoxicated person becomes sober once again .....
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Dec 7, 2018 - 07:34am PT
Interesting talk by Dennett but to my way of thinking he was discussing vagaries of perception rather than consciousness. To me consciousness is what exists whether you're seeing optical illusions, nothing but black in a sensory deprivation tank or nothing but an internal white light during meditation. The senses can be fooled, the functions of the brain can be fooled, but still, for ordinary mortals, the sense of self remains.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 7, 2018 - 09:01am PT
the sense of self remains.


What makes that sense more reliable than the other perceptions you mention?
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 09:14am PT
What makes that sense more reliable than the other perceptions you mention?

Because that is the real YOU ....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 7, 2018 - 09:27am PT

Fast track to the neocortex: A memory engram in the posterior parietal cortex

S. Brodt, S. Gais, J. Beck, M. Erb, K. Scheffler, M. Schönauer

Science
30 Nov 2018:
Vol. 362, Issue 6418, pp. 1045-1048
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/362/6418/1045

Abstract
Models of systems memory consolidation postulate a fast-learning hippocampal store and a slowly developing, stable neocortical store. Accordingly, early neocortical contributions to memory are deemed to reflect a hippocampus-driven online reinstatement of encoding activity. In contrast, we found that learning rapidly engenders an enduring memory engram in the human posterior parietal cortex [PPC]. We assessed microstructural plasticity via diffusion-weighted magnetic resonance imaging as well as functional brain activity in an object–location learning task. We detected neocortical plasticity as early as 1 hour after learning and found that it was learning specific, enabled correct recall, and overlapped with memory-related functional activity. These microstructural changes persisted over 12 hours. Our results suggest that new traces can be rapidly encoded into the parietal cortex, challenging views of a slow-learning neocortex.

...A memory engram has four defining features: (i) it must relate to a specific experience; (ii) it must engender an enduring change in the neural substrate; (iii) it can lie dormant for extended periods; and (iv) it must enable memory recall, thus having an impact on behavior (10, 11). To elucidate where memory formation leads to lasting physical changes, the microstructural modifications, e.g., of synapse number and morphology, which can occur within minutes after learning must be assessed (12). Diffusion-weighted MRI (DW-MRI) is sensitive to the microstructure of brain tissue (13) and can image experience-driven structural plasticity in the human brain noninvasively and in vivo (14–16)...

Although there is still debate about the functions of the different subregions of the PPC and their roles in working memory, memory-related attention, or reinstatement of previous experience (3, 8), our study highlights the role of the medial PPC. Observing microstructural changes in the precuneus takes us from memory processing and reinstatement to the memory engram itself (17). The fast temporal dynamics that we observed challenge traditional models of slow systems consolidation (2) and suggest that new traces are encoded rapidly in the neocortex from the onset of learning. In addition, we detected learning-specific, persistent microstructural changes upstream along the dorsal and ventral visual pathways, which is in line with the notion of distributed neocortical memory traces (8, 11). Apart from their role in perception, visual areas process memory content, suggesting memory storage also at this level (30, 31). Indeed, many accounts regard perception and memory not as faculties of different systems but as being localized within the same distributed neural circuits (28). Combining functional imaging with diffusion imaging might help transform our view of how the brain translates perception into memory.
capseeboy

Social climber
portland, oregon
Dec 7, 2018 - 09:56am PT
QuoteWhen the body and mind are purified and controlled by BONAFIDE meditative disciplines the absolute truth will then start to reveal itself as it is.
Here

I'm not sure that anyone person can define meditation in any way that fit's another person's experience because all of us has an active inference of our own experience. This inference is, perhaps, partly under the control of the gross matter.

What is often times thought of, by me, as a weakness in someone else, may in reality be a sign of their ability to problem solve e.g. a boy scooting down a flight of stairs on his behind because he is too frightened to walk down. My active inference(AI) had already made my mind up w/o me using my mind. AI, I suggest, may be at the root of Racism.

My recent experience, with what I shall describe as being meditative, came about without any trying on my part. It may be argued that this was not a meditative state; none the less, this was my experience: My brain was in a state of neither pushing or pulling----not wanting/wanting. I was not in a state of any intoxication. I was fully conscious of my surroundings. I was neither happy or sad----I was totally free from thought. In essence, my mind was dead.
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 10:30am PT
In essence, my mind was dead.

That's not meditation .....
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Dec 7, 2018 - 12:59pm PT
And once again we flounder on definitions.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 7, 2018 - 04:32pm PT
...BONAFIDE meditative disciplines the absolute truth will then...

And people wonder at the remarkable proliferation of so many different religions and sects within religions. It's all about dem damned BONAFIDEs...
capseeboy

Social climber
portland, oregon
Dec 7, 2018 - 04:34pm PT
Quote. In essence, my mind was dead. Here

Uh Jah, it must have been when I wrote that.

Edit: In essence, my mind was no mind.
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 06:20pm PT
LOL I knew that from the getgo.

I just commented that to see what folks would say about it just for the hell of it ....
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 06:28pm PT
BONAFIDE

Yes ....

Now when I want to actually learn physics I would go to Ed and not to Chongo Chuck in Camp 4.

Because Ed is actually a real bonafide physics scientist and Chongo is a street academia wannabee.

One you'll actually get a bonafide understanding where as the other you'll a ... "It's all bitchin" understanding ..... :-)

Even the gross materialists require bonafide and have an actual disciplic succession ......
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
Yeah Werner, there's nothing comparable to the real thing. It's obvious.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Dec 8, 2018 - 03:54am PT
Interesting talk by Dennett but to my way of thinking he was discussing vagaries of perception rather than consciousness.

How the job of trying to make people aware of the vagaries of perception could possibly demonstrate that consciousness is an illusion does seem to be a bit of a conundrum.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 8, 2018 - 08:54am PT
If consciousness is not an illusion, why do we have such trouble coming to agreement about its description?


https://www.google.ca/search?q=Dictionary#dobs=illusion
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Dec 8, 2018 - 08:56am PT
How the job of trying to make people aware of the vagaries of perception could possibly demonstrate that consciousness is an illusion does seem to be a bit of a conundrum.


Everybody has consciousness and all people have imperfect perceptions was the lesson for me. The more important point for me however, was if our perceptions of simple things like photos is imperfect, how much more our perceptions of our own personalities and egos and belief systems. The most important question of all, it seems to me, is whether there is some mental state that is beyond all these imperfections. People from the Buddha to Largo say yes. I've never experienced it but based on their descriptions would like to. That's all.
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