What is "Mind?"


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May 16, 2019 - 08:24pm PT
They are interesting but not conclusive evidence of anything in particular.

Says the wannabee god .....

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 17, 2019 - 07:08am PT
My wife is a medical geneticist. She has seen great advances in our ability to look for genetic causes of health problems.

I once worked at University of Washington in Seattle and my boss and I had a couple meetings with Bertil Hille, who studied the voltage-gated sodium channel in nerve cell membranes. His work laid the basis for an understanding of how local anesthetics block transmission in nerves.

My wife sends samples from patients to be tested for genetic abnormalities. Quite a few problems result from small changes in the structure of the channels that allow for ion flow through cell membranes.

My wife recently reminded me how intricate are the molecules we are made of and how complex are their interactions. Each one of us and each living thing has extraordinarily beautiful and multifaceted activity going on at the molecular level.

Then my wife pointed out how we often use this fantastic stuff we are made of to pick up a stick and hit someone on the head. Or some such crude purpose.

What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god,

from Hamlet

Social climber
Southern Arizona
May 17, 2019 - 07:14am PT
eeyonkee: Assumed concepts are what keep aircraft in the air.

You may not really mean what you've written. I wouldn't say that "concepts" keep aircraft in the air. It might be more related to things like wings, airflow, and such. (But even those are concepts.)

Your writing is, I'd say, somewhat representative of how enamored we are with science and conceptualizations. Once we have latched onto a concept that appeals to the images we hold in our minds and hearts, then they seem to become more real than what or how reality presents itself to us. Beliefs--expressed objectively as concepts--commandeer our perceptions, so that we see what we believe.

I'm using tools every day. There are other times when I'm more attracted to or involved in expressions rather than representations (tools).

At night I sit in a chair at dusk watching the colors shift and change in southern Arizona while night approaches. No concepts and no beliefs are required. You, on the other hand, might think about how the colors appear and how they change. I could also wonder at the palette of God, but that would also employ some beliefs.

Er, as to consciousness while being under anesthesia, I've been told that by a couple of doctors that the drugs that are being used do not make one unconscious as much as they make one forget the experience. (It's another narrative / conceptualization.)

May 17, 2019 - 07:45am PT
"concepts" keep aircraft in the air


You can say concepts do everything then.

Word jugglery ..... it's what gross materialists do when they are ultimately clueless ......

MH2 ... there is a distinction between the person itself and their material body.

You always completely miss that.

Because your whole science and medicine are stuck in the brainwashed material only rut .....
okay, whatever

May 17, 2019 - 07:56am PT
Hmmm. I've only had one experience with serious surgery, and hence anesthesia, but I am QUITE sure I was NOT awake during the operation, and then just "forgot" what happened. Once they wheeled me into the operating room, they injected a spinal block in my lower spine, which caused me to lose all feeling below the waist, after it took effect. Then, via the IV, they gave me some sort of light sedative so that I went to sleep, in effect. I had a MRSA infection in my right thigh, which could have caused a lot of trouble if it had gotten into my abdomen, obviously... that was why they were concerned, and wanted to open my leg up and clean it out thoroughly. Of the operation itself, and until I woke up in a hospital bed, I had and have NO memory whatsoever. I was unconscious, for all intents and purposes.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 17, 2019 - 07:57am PT
Er, as to consciousness while being under anesthesia, I've been told that by a couple of doctors that the drugs that are being used do not make one unconscious as much as they make one forget the experience.

there we have it, the experts have spoken! no need to explore further...

surprising that MikeL would write this, unless he's interested in avoiding the obvious problem that chemical "alteration" of the brain seems to have such an affect on consciousness. Not to mention the side step away from the issue that science can be used to build aircraft (and other technologies) rather more successfully than other "narrative descriptions of reality." It would seem that science has demonstrated its effectiveness.

WBraun also punted on his explanation, the drugs caused the "consciousness" to decouple from (?) the body. How does that work?


May 17, 2019 - 07:58am PT
I do so enjoy the word jugglery of “word jugglery” and “gross materialists” and “ultimately clueless.” Ultimately we ultimately clueless word jugglers believe we have a clue, and conclude that hitting someone else with a stick is a crude purpose for which to use our self-diagnosed sublime abilities.

Or something. We definitely conclude that we have a clue about something, whether it’s that we have a clue about what gross materialists do, or a clue about something else. Believing we have a clue about something is how we work. All of us.

May 17, 2019 - 08:09am PT
Disconnect the battery from your vehicle when the mechanic works on it.

You stay in the vehicle and wait till he's done and reconnects or you CAN even leave for a while, while the mechanic takes care of the vehicle for you.

You will not have any control over the vehicle while disconnected.

In the case of one's body under anesthesia, one will regain consciousness of that body when the drug wears off.

These are really very crude examples and it's much more than that.

Modern materialistic mindset can't grasp this stuff due to heavy material brainwashing ......
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 17, 2019 - 09:01am PT
due to heavy material brainwashing

The source of this is in late 1800 Psychology. Pavlov and Wundt determined there there is no evidence of soul or psyche. All is material and man is an animal. They were also under political pressure to prove this result so that "lesser" humans could be justafiably exterminated.

That was the point where psychology went off the rails and has been off the rails as a pseduo science ever since.

Just because they have professors in universities writing books and playing with rats does not mean they have a science. All they do is catogorize things.

They have no axioms, no fundamentals. Only guesses at how the mind works. Theories come and go every few years. They keep poking at the meat brain and they can't figure it out.

They can only guess at what causes the problems and they can cure nothing.

Meanwhile, others who do have a workable technology are vilified and slandered.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 17, 2019 - 09:39am PT
the idea of homunculus which can "exit the car" is an old one that probably orginates from the experience of observing the world through sight, the dualism referred to as the Cartesian theatre.

just what the homunculus is, and how it goes about this task, kicks the can down one level... but I'm interested in what wbraun has to say about it from his "narrative standpoint."


Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 17, 2019 - 12:00pm PT
Thank god we finally got to the bottom of what is mind before the forum shutdown!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 17, 2019 - 12:02pm PT
It took a while..... :) Minds are all wired differently and that's what's so cool. Tho I hesitate to post that thought with such an elite group of minds.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
May 17, 2019 - 12:05pm PT
Wow, can't believe the forum is shutting down. Haven't been writing much lately but I still check it out once in a while. Really going to miss writing on this thread and some of the other ones as well. Great folks with challenging ideas and always fun... just really damn sorry to hear. Best to all and adios.

May 17, 2019 - 12:48pm PT
Minds are all wired differently

No, they're not.

It's the living entities consciousness that's developed differently.

From single cell up to humans and even among humans have different levels of developed consciousness ......



Social climber
joshua tree
May 17, 2019 - 01:09pm PT
Maybe you shoulda titled it: What Mind Is/Isn’t?

Could have been some conclusions drawn;)

Anyway it was a great run. I learned lots from you ladies & gents!

i never meant any harm spoken, i’m jus stOOpid:)

Thank YouS


Michael Sanderson

May 17, 2019 - 01:54pm PT
Move the thread to another site? Mountain Project, for example. My suggestion about the AAC initiating a forum hasn't gone anywhere. I doubt they have the expertise to do it since they have had problems with their existing site.

You can find standard climbing content on several forums, but this thread is different.

Is there any interest in continuing WisM elsewhere? Maybe not.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 17, 2019 - 04:00pm PT
Is there any interest in continuing WisM elsewhere? Maybe not.

Count me in.

Trad climber
Golden, CO
May 17, 2019 - 04:19pm PT
Me too, and I'm touched by your humanity.

Now, back to business. My really last final answer (on this forum) -- Mind is memories. I've often posted about simplicity and brevity. This answer exceeds my expectations.

The details are that memories take the form of immediate, working, short-term, and long-term. All come in to play at every instant as the world comes streaming at you.

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
May 17, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
Mind is conscientiousness. Being. Our memories. Our thoughts. Our dreams. Our hopes. It's who we are.

We are. We exist. We will always be even afterwards. There is eternity ahead of us. We don't go away. We won't have this physical body but we will look like we do now but in our prime. Perhaps mid 30s? Our bodies will be able to morph from the spiritual to the physical and back again over and over. Yeshua showed us what our new bodies will be like after he resurrected and continued to show himself for the next 40 days. He talked with people. He visited with them. He ate with them. He could walk through walls. He could appear and then disappear at will.

We will be able to talk, think, dream, eat and have true relationships with others and with G-d. We will be able to fly, climb, swim, or do whatever. We will be immortal. Not G-d's equal, but sons and daughters of G-d.

G-d created us in the womb and knew us before we ever knew ourselves. We will continue ... with G-d or without G-d. I want to continue to be with G-d. The other option is really no option.

I can't wait to free solo all the routes on El Cap. Fall? No problem. Levitate and get back on and finish the climb. It's going to be wonderful.

May 17, 2019 - 07:47pm PT
We’re working to a deadline people! It’s time for more strident beliefs.

Might as well believe whatever it is that you happen to believe is true is in reality actually factually true. Ya can’t take em with you when you go.

We’re gonna be working to this deadline until we’re dead.
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