What is "Mind?"

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Messages 22421 - 22440 of total 22683 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2019 - 03:13pm PT
Nope, mother nature can't do anything such as that as it is completely subordinate.

You are still in extremely poor fund of knowledge ......
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Apr 25, 2019 - 03:42pm PT
Be that as it may, it occurs to me that I think of Mother Nature, to a certain extent, like someone else might think of God or Universal Consciousness. The difference is this. Mother Nature can only be understood with respect to how she unravels in time. It is fundamentally a bottom-up phenomenon and includes dynamical systems. God and Universal Consciousness are top-down phenomena. Bottom-up phenomena are consistent with the theory of evolution. Top-down aren't. It's as simple as that for me. What's not simple are the details. The proper adjective for details is more like interesting than simple.
WBraun

climber
Apr 25, 2019 - 03:50pm PT
Mother nature is NOT God ever nor universal consciousness (God)

One can't make up their own interpretations.

The gross materialists always do that due to their ultimate cluelessness .....
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 25, 2019 - 04:04pm PT
"jogill: Do we live in two different realities?"

MikeL: "This made me smile. How many ways could we answer this question, John? Your question cuts to a core of the conversation."


As you might suspect, Mike, I was poking at the Wizard. It's such fun! When John wanders off the meditative reservation he sometimes makes mistakes. When he is on that reservation I pay attention, although I question how much experiences like "empty awareness" tell us about the mind, other than its astounding capabilities.

I would say we all live in the same reality, but there is probably so much more to it we don't understand, and perhaps, being flesh and blood, we may never understand. Who knows?
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 25, 2019 - 08:22pm PT
More things I did not know and presumably some of y'all

Have we overlooked anything?


The spin doctors: Researchers discover surprising quantum effect in hard disk drive material


In technical terms, we discovered a sizable effect from magnetic damping in nanoscale layers of cobalt-iron alloy coated on one side of a magnesium oxide substrate," added Argonne materials scientist Axel Hoffmann, another author of the study. "By controlling the electron spin, magnetic damping dictates the rate of energy dissipation, controlling aspects of the magnetization."

https://phys.org/news/2019-04-doctors-quantum-effect-hard-disk.amp
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Apr 25, 2019 - 10:03pm PT
The sea of faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long. withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the world.

Ah, love, let us be true
To one another! for the world, which seems
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor peace, nor help for pain;
And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.

M. Arnold

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 26, 2019 - 05:34am PT
Thanks, Mike, but for an expert in history you'll have to look elsewhere.

I will mention the scholars I have been reading, however, on the chance that others might recommend related authors. Besides Pagels, there's Bart Ehrman, Joseph Atwill, Barbara Thiering and Robert Eisenman. All have been career academics except for Atwill. I'll never be familiar enough with the material to judge them very well, and they've all come to rather differing conclusions about the big picture, but there are some interesting threads connecting them, particularly the business of James, the perhaps younger brother of Jesus.

Otherwise, good luck to ye. I haven't much fascination with gnosticism, but it's a direction which was drummed out of Western religion which, since that happened, seems to be concerned much more with belief than experience. If it had been different, one might not have to ask, "what is mind?"
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Apr 26, 2019 - 07:32pm PT
In talking with my wife tonight, I realize that I need to move a little bit in my distinction between consciousness and mind. I have essentially been saying that we might as well define mind as human mind and posit it as the difference between us and say mammalian consciousness in general. I realize now that all primates likely have mind as well as cetaceans and presumably other vertebrate lineages. Since cetaceans and primates do not lie along a continuous lineage, this suggests that mind has evolved independently along multiple evolutionary pathways branching off of vertebrates.

Edit: Recognizing oneself in a mirror is as good a definition of mind as any I can think of. Mind is understanding that there is a you.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 26, 2019 - 07:53pm PT
Old silver gorilla mirror

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tz0avWZoqjg
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Apr 26, 2019 - 08:20pm PT
^^^^ Like it! That's mind, baby!
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 26, 2019 - 09:28pm PT
eeyonkee,

If you're talking to your wife about this stuff, I'd say you're too far gone to save.

Mirrors are an oft-used metaphor in so-called spiritual circles, btw. The Mind has been said to act as a mirror. At first one does what one can to make sure it is clean. Then one let's go of the mirror entirely.

Viola, then there "you" are.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 26, 2019 - 09:49pm PT
Whoa or woe is me

I thought I was behind the third door

The third eye indicated I was
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Apr 27, 2019 - 12:39pm PT
While the male gorilla posted by zbrown seems to have never figured out his self image, a total of eight animal species so far have been able to recognize themselves in the mirror, including magpies, thus proving as eeyonkee speculated, that evolution has produced intelligence more than once and in more than one way.

Here's an interesting video on Elephant self recognition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncKXLHz-PZI"]/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncKXLHz-PZI[/url]

and another one on animals and music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYyWyHrGn_k

and one of elephants in particular which seems to show a sense of rhythm although there are also many videos of cockatoos bobbing rhythmically to music, especially rock and roll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC7z8JU5jZU

This would help explain why the super learning concept of adding music and/or rhythm and bodily movement while memorizing lists, aids in memory retention. The propensity for these existed in mammals and some birds long before humans and human speech came along.




jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 27, 2019 - 12:55pm PT
Interesting post, Jan. Thanks
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 27, 2019 - 08:59pm PT
Jan: . . . the male gorilla posted by zbrown seems to have never figured out his self image, . . . .

Whoa. Let's quickly give thought to what we mean by "self image."

I don't have to tell you that idea / concept is under great consideration.

EDIT: I'm objecting to the term. I think you really mean something else entirely. It's a really complicated idea.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Apr 28, 2019 - 08:07am PT
It's an interpretation, Mike. Performed automatically by the brain but in different ways in the brains of different species. It could also be called a model. Your brain builds a model, or models, of the world your senses report to it. It can also model itself by the feedback it gets when you interact with the outside world, and it can include sensations from your internal sense receptors, too, the ones that monitor temperature, stomach pH, fluid balance, etc.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 28, 2019 - 08:11am PT
I know what models are. I'd like to see or hear what the model is.
Trump

climber
Apr 28, 2019 - 08:41am PT
What we think of as “would help explain” I think is not necessarily about helping us understand what is actually factually true, but is more about helping us believe “the stuff that we say” is true. A belief that the earth is flat used to “help explain” a lot of stuff. Help explain at its root maybe is more “help us believe the stuff that we need to believe is actually stuff that’s also true”.

If we want to help explain the image that we see of ourself as thinkers and sayers, sure our concepts about consciousness and how much righter and more intelligent we are than other people, and how our fund of knowledge is so much greater than other people’s, probably “helps us explain” it.

But I don’t think that what we’re necessarily doing in our minds is trying to help ourselves understand the truth - I think we’re trying to most effectively survive, in whatever way works the best. But we really don’t like to believe that about ourselves - that’s not the self image that we want to see in the mirror.

We much prefer imagining that my fund of knowledge is greater than yours, maybe because that’s so important to our ability to survive. So we do. And then we admire the reflection of ourselves that we imagine is in the mirror and not just what we prefer to imagine in our minds, the thing we sayers prefer to say, the story that we prefer to tell about ourselves.

Why am I always the one who needs to explain? Prolly like that for all of us. Really I could stop saying any time, but for some reason I don’t. But I could. Really. Have I convinced you that I could not say yet?

Wings would be cool, but this seems to be working for us so far.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Apr 28, 2019 - 10:24am PT
I'd like to see or hear what the model is.


In this case it is "you."
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 28, 2019 - 12:33pm PT
That's the object.

What's the model?
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