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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2019 - 11:42am PT
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I can't understand why many of you have devoted thousands of hours of your lives to Largo's Three Ring Circus.
I think the role of the "Devil's Advocate" is important for understanding anything... and as this thread has evolved the arguments on "both sides" have benefited.
That we live in a material world, there are more than enough curiosities to ponder, what ever other worlds you can imagine, they exist in that imaginary world.
I'll try to find Davies book.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 11:45am PT
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Not True
Mike L -- "It should be no stretch for you to realize that while your emotions and muscles are engaged with simulations--
the very same ones you'd use in real-life situations, you know that they are not real."
True
Although everything in the material world is temporary, everything in it is also very real.
Base104 -- but Davies is a really imaginative thinker ..... it is a good science ...read.
LOL talk about dogma and you just proved that science is all guessing (mental speculation) with your imaginative thinking is good science.
You should stick to flying your kite and keep imagining and imitating you are bird and you'll reborn as a bird in your next life.
To get the human form is very rare but living entities waste it on flying kites to devolve into lower species ....
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 14, 2019 - 12:05pm PT
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MikeL: "How different is it to take an artistic expression as unreal (but engaging), and observing daily dramas in direct experience? What would make them categorically different? "
The consequences. If a daily drama of direct experience has no apparent effect on me or mine or my environment it might as well be processed as an artistic effort, to be enjoyed or contemplated as a variety of abstraction. And of course it might come to my attention through TV, where I enjoy fictional productions. (Politics is entertainment for oldsters)
I really enjoy TV and delight in my 65" HD screen, having grown up with the evolution of television. My family's first set was a Philco with a small round CRT screen - 1953. The one channel came on about 4pm each day and showed a Hopalong Cassidy film. I would hurry home from school to enjoy this superb technology.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Apr 14, 2019 - 12:14pm PT
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The one channel came on about 4pm each day and showed a Hopalong Cassidy film. I would hurry home from school to enjoy this superb technology
yes! and then at around midnight all programming stopped and a test pattern..
remember party line telephones in the 50s?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 14, 2019 - 12:42pm PT
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^^^ Oh yes! Especially in rural areas.
Before that, while living at the edge of the University of Texas campus in the late 1940s, a friend and I would walk down to a small radio/TV shop and sit on the sidewalk while awaiting a TV set in the show window to come on about 4pm. All we saw was the familiar test pattern of the Indian in full headdress. But that was enough. How exciting!
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 14, 2019 - 12:46pm PT
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The other day I was once again presented with the opportunity to play a role in helping to defuse a potentially bad confrontation between two individuals.
I don't do this happily, nor seek them out( God forbid). But it seems as though over the years I've had several occasions to assume a peacemaker role-- and fortunately most ended with no one being hurt. I've learned a thing or two which may be of benefit should anyone find themselves in such a position.
Yesterday's incident involved two principle opponents ( POs) who came very close to an auto accident, which I witnessed. Both emerged from their respective vehicles ready to do battle as I fumbled to unlock my backyard gate. As I made my unassuming approach I became aware that the POs had already reached what I like to call their " set points". This was good news. They faced-off a good 10-12 meters from one another, beyond which neither were willing to trespass. That means the POs have had time to size one another up and really do not want to fight. Another thing I happily noted was that neither PO was in possession of any sort of weapon , thank God. ( This is the L.A. environs, after all.)
Another bit of good news was that the face-off involved what I like to think of as a "pure" standoff: daytime, few on-lookers, no friends or family members ( except a lone co-worker who stood off quite a ways and did not seem to be particularly familiar with the PO he was working with, as well as evincing a somewhat detached demeanor)
At this point there are perhaps two mistakes a peacemaker can make under these circumstances: to physically insert themselves between the POs, and to talk too much.
Preferably it is wisest to stop a fair distance to the side of the POs, out of direct line of sight,as well as equidistant from each one--and at the first opportunity ( don't talk over the POs) remind them that " it's not worth it guys." Normally as I speak I also gesture with both hands as one might do to indicate "cool it" or "quiet down".
It is at this point that the peacemaker becomes integral to the action and is furtively acknowledged by the POs. During their subsequent rantings it is at this stage they will normally look from time to time in the direction of the peacemaker --and these are added opportunities to quietly repeat " it's not worth it". Moreover, care must be taken to not be seen talking to one PO more than the other. Strict neutrality must be always adhered to.
I can't stress how important it is not to say anymore than the above. Don't move around, stay in the same place and position, and keep your mouth largely shut, and whatever you do--avoid at all costs voicing judgements as to the dispute, even if asked.
Yesterday's incident could have ended very badly in that both the POs were physically fit, big guys -- a furniture mover about 6ft 5, 260 lbs. vs. a younger smaller muscle-bound fellow who looked to be no stranger to the weight gym.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:05pm PT
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Well, hell.
----------------------
There I was, waiting for someone to show up who could talk to me about what was going on.
Then I saw her: tall, slender, blazing smile, stiding with great confidence. And bald.
Oooooookkkkkkk.
I had been given a month's stay at Vajarpani's "most private cabin" for a month-long private retreat. (I did something for them.) They'd leave a set of canisters of food twice a day at a tree, and I would take the empties back and leave them at the tree. It wasn't exactly a cabin, though. Solid walls, windows, and hardwood floors and such, with a chair from Ikea and platform bed. Basic kitchen utensils, and a couple of hot plates and rudimentary important condiments. Coffee and tea. You might have 50-90 square feet in the cabin. I had one of the larger ones. The idea, you see, was that you sit quietly and still, with nothing to do. It can drive a sane man or woman insane. You unleash the full power of "the committee" in your head, and the strangest g*ddamn ideas come into it. You begin to either get really scared, or downright delusional.
WELCOME . . . TO THE MIND.
After three weeks, I thought I'd take advantage of a talk with the head monk, a teacher. Yeah, I needed that. I had gone through about twenty books I had taken out of the library as a way of avoiding myself. Reading was discouraged and not part of the spirit of "private retreat," so I was already a sinner.
The monk had a smile that blazoned across the distance. And eyes to match. And so bald. She was beautiful in a very un-beautiful way. I began to tell her that the retreat might be a complete bust for me. I mean, look where and what I was going through. All BS. All the wrong things are happening.
Well, that's not really the case, she said. Then she talked to me about her 3-year private retreat. (Just shoot me now, I thought.) The whole idea of a 3-year private retreat was incomprehensible to me. When I talked about the various insanities that seemed to be going through my head in just two to three weeks, well, you can't be serious. Then she then told me a little bit about hers.
She said her first 6 months included an on-running rendition of every sitcom's theme song that she had seen as a younger girl. The theme songs played over and over for six full months. She asked me: do you have any idea what it's like to hear the theme song of Mr. Ed over and over and over in your head?
"A horse is a horse,
of course, of course, . . . "
I found the rest of my time there a little less stressful, but not enough. I bailed after 28 days (out of the 30 I had coming to me). Too much a good thing can be a little bit more than enough, said Shakespeare.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 14, 2019 - 08:15pm PT
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"She asked me: do you have any idea what it's like to hear the theme song of Mr. Ed over and over and over in your head? "
And you replied . . .?
(Careful!)
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:05am PT
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So there is no answer
The whole enterprise has just been an exercise in congeniality
And
Staving off the inevitable decline into senility that we all face in this life
And
Depending upon your view in other past? and future lives
I feel quite perky now
I claim to have, and do in fact have, complete ownership rights to this image
But it was deleted
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 15, 2019 - 05:02am PT
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defined
de fine de
fine
fin
e
i
fini
by way i play
the
mind
i
got
to
to
keep
after
complete
is
still
A
remarkable
thing
remark
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 15, 2019 - 05:21am PT
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When it & Time run out
what if
if there is no when
and then no then
So only nowah
well now
I guess some travel into existence
And
Some travel out of existence
exiting
entering
going of into solitude
having gone off
arriving at solitude
fighting to return from solitude
resistance to
the culmination
avoidance of death : solitude
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 15, 2019 - 06:54am PT
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One of the great blessings of my life is that I never had television growing up. In fact the first time I watched it was the Kennedy funeral at my aunts when I was a freshman at university, and then again when I was in my 30's and living in government quarters overseas. The only English language station available in Japan was the U.S. military network which plays the best of all three stations' programs and has no commercials, only shorts about American history and geography and medal of honor winners.
Lucky for me I lived in a mountain town in Colorado where we couldn't get reception over the mountains from Denver and after that I was too busy with university to bother, not to mention living in remote villages with no electricity. I have a large tv in my house now that I inherited and haven't bothered to hook up for the past 6 years. Eventually I guess I will get Netflix. Unfortunately the military network is not available in the U.S. I do listen to a lot of classical music from NPR while working on my computer.
As for theme songs playing in one's head, I'm surprised a Buddhist meditator wouldn't have substituted a mantra instead??
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 15, 2019 - 11:35am PT
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"I have a large tv in my house now that I inherited and haven't bothered to hook up for the past 6 years. Eventually I guess I will get Netflix."
You probably should replace it with a new one to get the best viewing experience. We subscribed to Netflix a couple of months ago and are very pleased. I highly recommend the premium package on Directv, also. It's sad that you missed so much over the years. For example, there are 120+ episodes of Hart to Hart available. But you can now make up for lost time!
(Sorry, Jan. Couldn't resist)
;>)
Question: Will this thread be locked or deleted because it is not about climbing?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 15, 2019 - 11:51am PT
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Thanks, Jim. The experience turned him into a kind of mathematical savant. Amazing images done by hand.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 15, 2019 - 12:06pm PT
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To make a definition of insanity one needs to say what is sane.
Thanks MikeL.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:32pm PT
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I have some variation of this post prolly once a year. As I understand it, the biggest divide in philosophy is rationalism vs. empiricism. These ideas have been around since the 18th century. Largo, MikeL and a few others clearly espouse the rationalist point of view. Those with a scientific point of view on this thread naturally align with the empiricist side of the equation.
The rationalist point of view runs something like this: All I know for sure are my perceptions. The independent existence of a world outside of my perceptions is suspect.
The empiricist point of view is this: Although it is obviously true that I obtain knowledge through my senses/perceptions, the interrelationships of that knowledge, and the fact of other humans around me, whom I have every reason to believe are basically like me, agree on certain things -- particularly scientific things, it would seem that there is an independent world out there that I can know about -- that I am part of.
I can't help but think that rationalists think it's all about them -- as healyje suggested, that they create the world.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2019 - 04:57pm PT
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The rationalist point of view runs something like this:
You have zero clue to what you are talking about.
And I mean it
ZERO.
And that is why all you can do is guess, mental speculate and make up clueless posts you know nothing about at all.
Real scientific you are ..... rolls eyes ....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Apr 15, 2019 - 05:08pm PT
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WBraun, you're probably correct that my description of the rationalist side isn't quite right. Please give us your definition.
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