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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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It sure seems to me that it is WAY more complicated to envision that we "create the world" through our perceptions than it is to believe that the world has an independent existence. I mean, it's hard to know where to start. It’s not just about cliffs and rattlesnakes. Not by a long-shot. Being a geologist, I’ll suggest this.
Pretty much everybody who studies fossils agrees with the basic framework of relative succession and absolute age (based on isotope methods) of life on Earth. Things like;
• The oldest fossils (discovered so far) are on the order of 3.4 billion years old
• Life started out as unicellular and “branched out” to multi-cellular
• An apparent, evolutionary inflection-point in multi-cellular life occurred at the beginning of the Cambrian (~ 560 million years ago), where the basic body types of today’s organisms were first evolved
• The age of the dinosaurs was between about 250 and 65 million years ago
• The first mammals appeared about 200 million years ago
• The first primates appeared about 50 million years ago
• The first hominids occurred around 6 million years ago
• The first members of species homo sapiens - sapiens appeared about 250,000 years ago
This is just one example of millions that you could come up with. How can it be that nearly everybody who studies this subject comes up with the same conclusions? It’s not that I can’t possibly imagine how it could happen if there wasn’t an independent reality, it’s just that the answer must necessarily be complicated. Prove me wrong (but don't call me Ishmael).
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Sometimes a mystical experience is so powerful one tries to give it meaning by proposing very strange things.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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And that human perception of reality is less than 100% reliable
Human perception like all biological perception was forged on the anvil of do or die. It was not selected for its ability to accurately perceive everything, but to focus instead on that which was needed to find food, avoid predators, and attract a mate. Now that we get food from grocery stores, don't often encounter animals that can eat us, and attract mates on eharmony or tinder it should be no surprise that our perception is less than 100% reliable.
Pretty good exegesis, Joe, but be wary of MikeL. He could be the Professor Irwin Corey of the, "What is 'Mind?'" thread.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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WBraun
climber
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Life started out as unicellular and “branched out” to multi-cellular
You have no real clue what life itself is to begin with.
Life never started.
It was already there to begin with.
In order to begin life has to be already there.
The rest your stuff is just more of your western brainwashed modern interpretation of matter and materialism is all in all ....
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WBraun
climber
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You wouldn't know the full range of Love if it hit you on the head .....
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WBraun
climber
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For the Mathematically Inclined: Math Puzzle Solved.
A mathematician in England has cracked a math puzzle that’s stumped computers and humans alike for 64 years:
How can the number 33 be expressed as the sum of three cubed numbers?
I have no clue what this means except that artificial intelligence failed and life itself solved it?
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2019/04/02/for-the-mathematically-inclined-math-puzzle-solved/
Maybe the brilliant mathematician John Gill can tell us?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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In order to begin life has to be already there.
Werner also gives Irwin Corey a run for the money when it comes to bafflegab.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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(8,866,128,975,287,528)^3 + (–8,778,405,442,862,239)^3 + (–2,736,111,468,807,040)^3 = 33.
Duck, this is a fine example of the absurd things mathematicians get hooked on. I personally find it a ridiculous quest, but other math people find the nonsense I putter around with even more inane. Just because a problem is hard does not make it worth diddly-squat. A lesson I learned bouldering as well.
I'm not a very good mathematician and know little of number theory, but unless the efforts at a solution give rise to some other math treat, I am not impressed.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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All compass and straight edge.
So much to learn.
And understand.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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That is an hilarious fine example, John. Adults do the darndest things. Now if the result had been 42 we may have been on to something.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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42 is the only number under 100 without a solution.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Sometimes a mystical experience is so powerful one tries to give it meaning by proposing very strange things.
Once again, this is the heart of the conundrum. What is the meaning of these experiences and can they be extrapolated beyond oneself? In the past people thought they could because they saw people's lives changed for the better as a result of those experiences. I think this still holds true in some small groups and in my experience is more effective than western analytic psychotherapy.
Meanwhile, I am uneasy with Mike's views on reality not only because I believe it does exist apart from our perceptions, but also because too much emphasis on the importance of the subjective inner world at the expense of participating in society, leads to the kind of fatalistic backwardness of much of places like India and Nepal. I can appreciate that sadhus, Hindu holy men who have renounced the world, never sleep more than three nights in the same place and beg for their food, have traditionally been the release valve for those individuals who could not accommodate to their arranged marriages or the caste system. Instead of serial killers, India has many millions of drifters who dress colorfully or go around naked covered only in ashes, smoke a lot of dope and don't cause many problems.
Modern Indians however, strive for something more for themselves and their country. I think the answers to many of these questions of spiritual subjectivity versus society and survival will come from that part of the world with its rich philosophical traditions.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Highlights on the way to mind -- as always (because I'm a geologist) youngest is on top.
* Self-reflective declarative (mind) memory
* Declarative (conscious) memory
* Non-declarative (unconscious) memory
* The first appearance of the neuron
* The Cambrian explosion
* Multi-cellular life
* Eukaryotic cells
* RNA/DNA
* Replication
* The cell
* Protein
* Amino acids
* Organic molecules
* Molecules
Just throwing it out there like I always do. The order of some of the lower parts may or may not be correct.
It's all about memory since I the decider would seem to be an illusion.
For a little perspective, it is generally thought that most if not all mammals have declarative memory. A lot of what we know about it actually comes from studies of rodents. Just like the difference between declarative and non-declarative memory involves an additional component, the hippocampus, the difference between self-referential declarative memory and declarative memory involves an additional component, dubbed by Michael Gazzaniga as the Interpreter, and is located in a specific part of the human brain.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan,
The only way a fool works is for him or her to expose truth. Ultimately, the cost of truth is everything. (Werner is a kind of fool.)
Your preciousness of compassion can be an obstacle. Skillful Means can call for someone's death. Christianity as done Man a disfavor in this regard, I'd say. It's my most humble view to you.
Surrenender to the process. Let it play out. Whatever you think it is, it's still an interpretation, and all of those must go. The universe is perfect, bottom to top. Nothing needs fixing, changing, or even reviewing.
You can relax. (You're off the hook.)
Be well, my friend.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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eeyonkee:
declarative memory involves an additional component, dubbed by Michael Gazzaniga as the Interpreter, and is located in a specific part of the human brain.
MikeL:
Whatever you think it is, it's still an interpretation,
Concord.
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WBraun
climber
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the Interpreter, and is located in a specific part of the human brain
That is where modern science completely fails again and again and will continue as long as modern science remains embedded in gross materialism.
Brain, consciousnes,soul..pdf
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=04340947871607587293
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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"Ultimately, the cost of truth is everything."
"Your preciousness of compassion can be an obstacle."
Didn't you say there is no such thing as "truth"? Why give up everything for a chimera? By "everything" do you mean one's "I"?
Assuming this "truth" exists, how does this experience enhance one's life?
Just curious.
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WBraun
climber
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When you are in Truth you stop running stop lights thinking they are green .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Sometimes I wonder if MikeL and I have studied the same Tibetan Buddhism. Certainly every teacher I've encountered has said that wisdom and compassion are equally important. It' also true that both Christianity and Buddhism have had to cope with the contradictions of being peaceful religions in a world of evil. However, I don't think the answer lies in being like the Amish for example, enjoying the freedoms of a country sacrificed for by others.
One of the many things I like about Buddhism is its emphasis on motivation being more important that the right or wrong of an act. Killing other humans is considered to be bad karma yet Buddhism recognizes that sometimes it is necessary to kill to save innocent life. The men who plotted to kill Hitler would fall in that category. Perhaps that is what Mike is getting at ?
The passive version of the world is perfect as it is, fosters the attitude of extreme apathy toward the material world and a passive interpretation of karma cultivated by many Hindus. I lived in a Buddhist village and a Hindu village at separate times. They were only 30 miles apart yet the Buddhist village was joyful, energetic, and produced a food surplus in a place where only one crop a year was possible because the ground was frozen for six months. They said things like "you have to test your karma and most people who do so by working hard and being good do well in life". The Hindus seemed miserable, and had people starve to death the year I was there, in a place that produced four crops a year in soil that never froze. They also said things like "Of course he was a bank robber, it was his karma. He couldn't help himself"
The active form of the universe is perfect and nothing we do matters, is the Japanese Buddhist samurai. Brave yes, ruthless killers yes, defenders of an archaic feudal system, yes. Defenders of World War II and kamikazis, yes. Yet somehow because they were Buddhist and have a mystique about them, this has been overlooked, even admired by so many, with more admirers in the modern west than in modern Japan.
The world is not perfect as it is, nor humans, but to be human means to ask the meaning of it all, and to struggle with making the best choices we can at any given time. To me, that's the philosophical underpinning of what our minds are for, whatever mind is.
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WBraun
climber
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Material designations do not solve any problems Jan .....
The active form of the universe is perfect and nothing we do matters,
This is not true ever.
What we do always matters.
There are Karmic reactions for material actions and there are NO Karmic reactions for spiritual actions ....
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