What is "Mind?"

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 21441 - 21460 of total 22307 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Mar 7, 2019 - 07:13pm PT
What do you imagine consciousness was before it evolved?




I imagine a person walking around in a dark room banging knees on things, until they happen to knock against the light switch. After the emergence of light many things became clear.
WBraun

climber
Mar 7, 2019 - 08:50pm PT
It used to be that life solved its immediate problems of surviving without being conscious of it.

No such thing has ever happened nor will it ever happen.

We will knock you out unconscious and see how much you'll solve.

Do you even have any logic and reason at all?

Answer .... NO

Why the need for consciousness is the question that nobody has a great answer for.

Another horesh!t statement by a frustrated person who believes he knows everyone on the planet.

Plus you don't want an answer, because,

You are insane .....


Consciousness IS life itself
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 7, 2019 - 09:34pm PT
Eureka!

What is "Mind?"


— a static block of space-time in which any flow of time, or passage through it, must presumably be a mental construct or other illusion.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 7, 2019 - 09:34pm PT
JL: "The laws that underlie these theories are time-symmetric — that is, the physics they describe is the same, regardless of whether the variable called “time” increases or decreases. Moreover, they say nothing at all about the point we call “now”."


Peter Lynds has something to say about this. You should unpack his paper.


While you are at it, please explain why the speed of light is a constant. Don't waffle around with special relativity. Why is this phenomenon axiomatic? Be concise.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2019 - 05:10am PT
Peter Lynds has something to say about this. You should unpack his paper.


While you are at it, please explain why the speed of light is a constant. Don't waffle around with special relativity. Why is this phenomenon axiomatic? Be concise.
-


Hey, I'd love to try and unpack Lynds paper. I think I have the wherewithal per Xeno's paradoxes, but you'd need a solid numbers guy to chime in as well, and that's not me, nor can I find someone who can hobby around with it. If you're game to take a shot at it, I'll try it in a second. Or at least start in on the thing and see where it might go.

Per the speed of light, my sense of it is that what you are asking for is a determined "reason," a fixed physical mechanism/explanation that keeps the SOL a constant, or nearly so.

What if there isn't one?

The standard answer is something like this:

If we want to know why c is always invariant, we are actually asking why do physical observers transform according to the Lorentz transformation? Or, why does space and time dilate/contract etc. etc.

We might find a deeper structure which explains the Lorentz transform, but it will once again be based on some suppositions. And then we can ask about these suppositions. It then all boils down to a "Why these laws?" questions. Science just does not provide complete answers to such questions.

My sense of it is that when one asks a "why" question in physics on fundamental postulates, the only real answer is "because" by assuming this, the theory describes the data and it has not been falsified up to now.

What's curious in all of this is the absence of any "absolute" frame of reference.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Mar 8, 2019 - 07:29am PT
HFCS: . . . I wish I could live for 1,000 years . . . .

Mortality is what haunts everyone's thoughts, and that would include the thoughts of climbers perhaps more than most (where is Locker?). If life is very important to us, then so is death (as we know it)--although we hide that concern away in a cubbyhole somewhere in our minds. The ego is the Great Avoider, as it seeks to shore itself up at every opportunity.

If death is important psychologically (and hence spiritually as well as materially), then where would we look for death subjectively? Would death be another example of a "thing" that can't be described and talked about in any detail?

Are we not fascinated by Alex's El Cap feat because it was death-defying, or were we simply interested in his physical skills?

From one perspective, everything is about death, and conversely, of course, what we think life is.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Mar 8, 2019 - 07:47am PT
The Meaning of Metrics

About 5 weeks ago, my wife Lisa got bit by a kitten at a cat shelter where she donates her time. Long story short, that bite turned into a bone infection, and it progressed very rapidly. (Cats' teeth are very well formed for penetration.)

Lisa probably could have seen a doctor sooner (who knew cat bites were so dangerous?), but every professional she came in contact with expressed surprise at how bad her situation was: "Gee, it's worse than I thought!" was what we heard again and again. (Surprise is NOT what you want to hear from any professional.) Although Lisa spent 5 days in hospital getting antibioltics through IVs (she now is self-administering the same 6X daily), her finger was getting worse and looking very ugly and angry.

The hand surgeon began to broach the topic of amputation (where and how). We were getting pretty depressed (and very tired) around here.

Two days ago Lisa had a meeting with the infectious disease people (who are leading Lisa's care), and they reported good news: the infection is getting smaller, and it's migrating to the end of the finger rather than up her arm, and some blood count is at 10.6 rather than 14. Her white blood count is diminished, but it hasn't crashed, and the 10.6 is encouraging.

I, being somewhat academic, said to her, "but what does the 10.6 mean?" Lisa shot back, "it means it's good."

I said nothing in reply.

Metrics tend to bring their own evaluations without understanding.

EDIT: The mind may be logically and rationally organized (according to some here), but it doesn't seem to work that way in what we casually observe.
WBraun

climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 08:28am PT
HFCS: . . . I wish I could live for 1,000 years ...


You will and much longer as you are eternal.

You may change bodies according to time and circumstance as your consciousness advances or devolves.

That is true evolution.

That is why consciousness is the single most important factor of yourself.

The living entity itself transmigrates to different bodies according to the consciousness it develops in this lifetime.

So-called death is only being kicked out of that material body and entering a new one when required.

The goal is not entering material bodies anymore,

The gross materialists think the material world is all in all.

The spiritual world and manifestations are infinitely greater.

Unfortunately, the science of just stirring beakers and academics is NOT enough for this realization .....
Trump

climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 08:31am PT
Hey I’m sorry to hear that MikeL. And glad to hear it. I have a tough time making up this mind of mine.

But making up our minds, one way or the other, seems to be an essential skill for humans. Most healthy people are really good at it, whether what they make up in their minds to believe is true or not.

I’m hoping that your wife continues to improve.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2019 - 09:06am PT
The idea of trying to experience your life with no time frame is tricky. Seems like we are hard-wired to believe in a starting point, a creation, from which reality unfolds in one direction. Dump the creation/starting point and all bets are off.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Republic, WA
Mar 8, 2019 - 09:59am PT
Time can be framed in more ways than beginning/end. I think perhaps the hard-wiring aspect pertains just as well to cyclical time frames like seasons. Also the years seem to be experienced as shorter the more you have under your belt so to speak. Time is an interesting subject and not always in a good way. Subjectively and judgmentally.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 8, 2019 - 10:13am PT
Seems to me time is framed more as the present is the dividing line between past and future. Rather than beginning to end. Time seems most specific as another measurement of space-time. The 4th dimension.

As question of what comes first the chicken of the egg: is time somewhat universal, or is our experience of time mainly dependent on how our brains evolved: chemical reactions, quantum entanglement, survival and reproduction necessitating a certain experience of time to be successful.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 8, 2019 - 10:19am PT
MikeL, why is she seeing a vet? 😉
FYI, cats have +/- 450 different nasties in their mouths.* Best wishes.

*(Dogs have around 650)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 11:22am PT
eeyonkee, I get the feeling from your posts that our sense of "emergence" might not be all that different - I don't particularly buy into any of these new-agey descriptions of it. I've tended to stick to a more or less general systems or general engineering sense of it...

e.g., how table salt emerges from a silvery metal and poisonous gas; how nuclear fusion (He and photon production) emerges from H atoms under sufficient pressure; how radio (transmission and reception) emerges from electrical or electronic LC resonance.

All mind-blowing phenomena to be sure and yet entirely mechanistic and/or algorithmic at base. I'd bet you would agree: anything more is speculation and if believed without evidence and good reason likely indicates woo, embrace of woo.

e.g., more: how rolling (or wheeling) emerges from roundness (e.g., river stones); how structural strength, rigidity, emerges from triangles, triangulation; how flowers and bipedalism and countless ecological relations (e.g., pollenization) emerge from evolutionary process by natural selection (itself a mechanism).

Lastly, as per earlier post, how sense of self, sentience, subjectivity and all the rest of mind's wonders emerge from unimaginably complex system circuitry /networks / algorithms / mechanisms.

P.S. how focus (e.g., in a rudimentary eye to a modern eye) emerges from lentification (i.e., lens-making); how ability or competence of all stripes, incl forms of intelligence, including wide ranging strategies incl deception/deceit emerge in agents (players in the game of life) under selection pressure.

Anyways, that's a bit of description regarding my use of these words, e.g., "emergent" or "emergence."
jogill

climber
Colorado
Mar 8, 2019 - 11:53am PT
JL: "Per the speed of light . . ."


Well done! Good reply. As Feynman said, he could find some of the "hows", but not the "whys" of natural phenomena. I'll pull up Lynds' paper and take a look at it again. In a nutshell, I recall his point was that there is no instant in time, only intervals. Time is a favorite philosophical subject of mine.


Mike, I hope your wife pulls through safely. Who would think a kitty could be a hazard?
WBraun

climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 12:20pm PT
The mind is instant and faster than the speed of light .......

Time is the impersonal feature of GOD and Time is eternal.

Everything in the material world is dependent on Time.

Nothing in the material world is free from Time .....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 01:06pm PT
Hey MikeL glad to hear things worked out well.

Long ago I worked as a Vet Attendant ( a sort of nurse in an animal hospital) and was grievously mauled on several occasions by cats and dogs. My initial inexperience resulted in a kitten scratching my neck so that not only was the wound very painful but it too became slightly infected.

Despite the accumulating injuries it was the untrue allegation by the lead veterinarian of me having been "possibly" responsible for the pilfering of money that had me packing up my bandages and unceremoniously moving on.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Mar 8, 2019 - 02:17pm PT
MikeL, sorry about your wife.

I had my own cat bite experience when breaking up a cat fight and being bitten. I took tetracycline 5 minutes later and so only ran a fever and had a grossly swollen hand for three days afterwards.

A friend retiring from Okinawa to Utah had to take two of his cats out of a cage for inspection in LA by the airline (good old United) after a 20 hour flight from Japan. His poor freaked out cats shredded his arms and he was on IV's shortly after landing in Salt Lake.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 02:41pm PT
In the art of thinking, here's Julia Galef on the Sunk Costs Fallacy...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://youtu.be/vpnxd31y0Fo

"Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it". -S. Daedalus

Julia, this type of thinking is surprisingly common in the world of multi-day rock climbing projects, too.

:)

...

One more example of emergence, nothing magical about it, only astonishing... the birth and life cycle of a tornado. A truly amazing phenomenon, you might not believe it were possible if you didn't actually see it with your own eyes. An emergent phenomenon entirely rule-based (mechanistic) in terms of physics, chemistry, systems.
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 03:32pm PT

Many complex systems in biology can be conceptualized as networks. This perspective helps researchers understand how biological systems work on a fundamental level, and can be used to answer key questions in biology, medicine, and engineering.

Blood flow in the brain is a prime example. Blood travels through a network of vessels and can be re-routed to specific parts of the brain as needed. Walking, for example, would require blood flow in different regions than chewing gum.[🎶




https://phys.org/news/2019-01-physicists-limits-multitasking-biological-networks.html




A team of researchers from the Department of Physics & Astronomy published a study in PNAS that addresses this question. Graduate student Jason W. Rocks and former postdoc Henrik Ronellenfitsch, who is now at MIT, were the lead authors of this paper, and worked alongside physicists Andrea Liu and Eleni Katifori, as well as Sidney R. Nagel from the University of Chicago.
The Penn team had previously studied two types of networks. Katifori has examined how nature builds and maintains "flow networks," such as blood flow, using approaches that are inspired by and related to biology. Liu studies "mechanical networks," such as the arrangement of amino acids that form a protein, and how these networks can be changed in order to perform a specific biological function.
While these two systems differ from one another, discussions between the Liu and Katifori groups about how much multitasking each network could accomplish helped Liu and Katifori realize that they could study these two seemingly unrelated networks together.
"We were both independently studying the complexity of a particular function that a flow network could do and what a mechanical network could do," says Katifori. "It was two entirely different physical networks, but in a way the same question."
The authors developed a set of equations that described each system. They then used simulations to control or "tune" the network so they would perform increasingly complex functions. Rocks, Ronellenfitsch, and their colleagues found that both types of networks succeeded at multitasking.
They were surprised by the similarities in performance between these two seemingly distinct networks. While the physics underlying the two systems is entirely different, they performed similarly in terms of multitasking abilities and controllability. "Quantitatively, they were almost identical," says Liu.

Messages 21441 - 21460 of total 22307 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta