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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 18, 2019 - 04:22pm PT
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Hmmm, well who are the folks that require "science immersion" and less "ST" activity? Inquiring hard heads want to know. As someone that never got past the sixth grade I leave that science stuff to you priestly brainiacs. A kind of scientific gnosticism, if you will, certain to bring the world happiness.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 18, 2019 - 04:25pm PT
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The post wasn't referencing you. The post concerned the truth claim:
Information is immaterial.
Is information immaterial, Paul?
Now it's referencing you.
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Why not spend just five minutes of your day listening to that snipet I referenced above. I'm interested in the Humanities - that's why I post about them (if you would take a minute and think about it) and why I am interested in their quality control and weeding out the bullsh#t. Is this exact practice not manifested in literally hundreds of other human activities, interests and concerns? I could post pictures of hundreds of humanities books on my shelves right now incl classic, early and medieval lit collected over 40 years - but would it do any good as far as you're concerned? I don't know.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 18, 2019 - 04:28pm PT
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As someone that never got past the sixth grade... -Paul
Is this true? I'd just like to know the facts.
I'm sure like some others here, not all but some, that you respect the facts. I for one would appreciate the truth, telling the truth.
As you might have noticed it's not very strong in currency around these parts lately.
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A kind of scientific gnosticism, if you will, certain to bring the world happiness. -Paul
People only end up shooting their own selves in the foot "at the end of the day" with this kind of attitude. Imo.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 18, 2019 - 04:39pm PT
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Likely, per usual, they'll just post past you.
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Case in point, above: Is information immaterial, Paul?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 18, 2019 - 04:45pm PT
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Paul said this that I really liked!.
mho: consciousness is that perceiving and knowing aspect of the individual existing beyond the world as merely a collection of facts and, instead, as a seat of both reason and intuition that makes judgments. It is an element that recognizes both itself and the impossibility of communicating that recognition directly, yet recognizes consciousness at its own level in other beings immediately. Consciousness is the relationship of being known and knowing, between subject and object. Our certainty of it is a product of our personal experience of “realization” in every aspect of our lives.
He followed it up with this that I am, at most, lukewarm to.
That eastern realization that I and the other are one is a manifestation of that idea: that consciousness is transcendent, if nothing more but because it is shared and we recognize it through imagination that consciousness in others. And here imagination and subjective experience begin to have epistemological validity insofar as they are the sole source of evidence and communication regarding the subject.
You still want the engineers building the planes, particularly if you are going to fly in one. There really is an objective world out there and you don't want be falling out of it from 30,000 feet.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 18, 2019 - 05:01pm PT
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You still want the engineers building the planes, particularly if you are going to fly in one.
You sure do. But they aren't the reason you want to travel. Planes are simply a tool for your adventure.
Information is important in any field.
The source of information regarding consciousness can never be perfectly objective because consciousness is by definition subjective experience and here subjective experience has a validity outside the demands of objectivity/science simply because we are intimate with it in our own experience.
Heh, heh... how's that for a sixth grader?
Consciousness creates the physical universe (answer either yes or no)?
Yes, insofar as the sensory appearance of the universe is a function of the forms of sensibility.
Light is wavelengths turned into beauty by our minds.
He followed it up with this that I am, at most, lukewarm to.
Yeah, typos, typed on the run. Fixed it. See what you think.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 18, 2019 - 06:18pm PT
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In the old days they could fly by mantra power, sound vibration.
They could travel to other planets that way.
Now they can barely do anything right all while proudly claiming they've advanced.
No, .... modern science devolved into caveman ......and their education is the slaughterhouse of the soul.
Only nuts and bolts along with illusion is all they have .....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 18, 2019 - 07:23pm PT
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Great summation of the issue Mh2.
But why does it have to have an answer? Why can't we say we simply don't know?
Thank you, Jan.
If the question you have in mind when you ask, "Why does it have to have an answer?" is, "Does a universal fundamental consciousness exist?", I can simply say that I don't know. Further, I don't think I can find out. I would rather spend time thinking about questions I might find an answer to.
For example, why do humans spend so much time asking questions and looking for answers? Most of us have far less important things to do. I know I do. Back to doing the dishes.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2019 - 08:30pm PT
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“A person's mental activities are entirely due to the behavior of nerve cells, glial cells, and the atoms, ions, and molecules that make them up and influence them.”
― Francis Crick
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 18, 2019 - 08:44pm PT
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“A person's mental activities are entirely due to the behavior of nerve cells, glial cells, and the atoms, ions, and molecules that make them up and influence them.”
― Francis Crick
Is there any possibility that a human being can rise above the dictates of their cellular structure? Does cellular structure determine responsibility? Must we forgive Hitler as an arbitrary amalgam of cellular mistakes produced by haphazard and accident? Is anybody responsible for their cellular makeup, their molecular arrangement?
If we can blame, how, in fact, is that possible unless some sort of separation between flesh and spirit can be determined.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 18, 2019 - 09:04pm PT
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A person's mental activities are entirely due to the behavior of nerve cells, glial cells, and the atoms, ions, and molecules that make them up and influence them.”
Nope ~ wrong again.
Those are only the nuts and bolts.
But it is none other than consciousness itself that drives and operates the mind ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2019 - 09:11pm PT
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Is anybody responsible for their cellular makeup, their molecular arrangement?
not yet on cellular makeup, molecular arrangement is done all the time.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 18, 2019 - 09:31pm PT
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not yet on cellular makeup, molecular arrangement is done all the time.
You lost me. I don't see how I can be responsible for my own molecular arrangement. Keerist, I was just standing here.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2019 - 09:40pm PT
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chill out and have a beer...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 18, 2019 - 09:48pm PT
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Will do.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2019 - 10:02pm PT
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 19, 2019 - 07:37am PT
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 19, 2019 - 09:20am PT
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Jan 19, 2019 - 09:29am PT
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I find it ironic how some complain about what a waste of time this thread is and yet find the time to continue to post on it. Go figure.
Must we forgive Hitler as an arbitrary amalgam of cellular mistakes produced by haphazard and accident? Is anybody responsible for their cellular makeup, their molecular arrangement?
Apparently there are no mistakes, only wave functions. I don't believe there is such a thing as sin; hence, there is nothing to forgive. People like to believe they personally have the power of choice---it is only their Ego. We like to validate or invalidate, that is our nature. We do it to ourselves and to others; consciously and unconsciously.
We validate technology, science and medicine as improving the quality and longevity of our lives. And it has, in the short version; however, now the world is overpopulated and poisoned and growing more so---the long version.
The fly is still trying to find a way out of the bottle. When it has, it will just find itself in another one to find its' way out of. Keep posting.
Paul Roehl---is that a pic of Folly?
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SuperTopo on the Web
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No consciousness at conception.
Let us know!