What is "Mind?"

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MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 8, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
Do you have any solid evidence that people have more trouble coming to an agreement about the descriptions of things that are illusions than they have coming to an agreement about descriptions of things that are not illusions?


No. Only anecdotal evidence. An example; I point and say, "That's a horse." The person beside me says, "Yes, that's a horse."

Then there is this thread. I say, "Consciousness results from activity in a large network of neurons (at least the sort of consciousness people have)." Do we have agreement on that?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 9, 2018 - 02:08am PT
MikeL: Everything is real, and consciousness is the essential nature of both God and the soul despite their essential differences. Consciousness is the direct perception of entities just as they are in themselves, as-it-is, experience-as-such, free of thought constructs. Integrate: every "thing" has its place in the economy of the whole.

It’s not that there aren’t “things,” Werner. “Things” are a form of awareness. The objective status of a thing is cognition itself. Phenomena (“things”) have no being of their own. Their essential nature is consciousness itself, and one's experience depends not only on the nature of the object perceived, but also the personal factors entirely peculiar to oneself. In this regard, what is perceived is identical to one's perception. That is, every thing is real according to the manner in which it appears, for as the state of one's consciousness, so the experience.

Insight cannot be gained by going beyond appearances, but by attending to them closely, as-they-are, free of constructs.

Succinct. I think you should have opened with this twenty-three thousand posts ago...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 9, 2018 - 09:55am PT
I say, "Consciousness results from activity in a large network of neurons (at least the sort of consciousness people have)." Do we have agreement on that?

I think that it is a working hypothesis, but it apparently fails to generate consensus. In some ways it is akin to the "Anthropic Principle," humans exist, and humans have a number of attributes, consciousness, large complex brains, communication, etc...

The Cetacea have many of the same attributes, without being human, and yet it has been difficult to reach consensus on whether or not they posses consciousness. Octopoda also have intelligent traits, as do Corvidae, are they conscious?

These animals have intelligence, and perhaps conscious behavior recognizable to humans.

This points out the overwhelming issue of how to define consciousness objectively in order to recognize it in more broadly non-human terms. One suspects that a broader definition will include "artificial" intelligence, and the possibility (inevitability?) of non-biological consciousness.

Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Dec 9, 2018 - 10:20am PT
Why the reticence to ascribe consciousness to non human organisms. For some intelligence is insufficient. They may find some humans lack consciousness.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 9, 2018 - 10:52am PT
...reticence to ascribe consciousness...
what is consciousness?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 9, 2018 - 02:07pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Dec 9, 2018 - 04:02pm PT
No human or any sentient being can ever lack consciousness as that is symptom of life itself.

If there is no consciousness then that material body is dead matter only.

The living entity even in a single blade of grass manefestates itself as consciousness.

No consciousness equals no life and is then only matter period ......
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 9, 2018 - 08:25pm PT
This points out the overwhelming issue of how to define consciousness objectively in order to recognize it in more broadly non-human terms.


Yes. One approach would start with the assessments of level-of-consciousness often performed by health-care workers. In the motor performance part of the Glasgow coma scale a top score is given if the person being tested obeys commands. A dog can do that.

I grant that many animals have consciousness. However, as you go toward smaller nervous systems, it seems to get harder to regard animals as conscious. Are oysters conscious?

The lobster has been recognized in Sweden and New Zealand as a creature that should not be boiled alive. The issue is not whether lobsters respond to painful stimuli; they do. The issue, as I understand it, is that lobsters can learn to associate a painful stimulus with a non-painful stimulus. They can remember pain.

Another way the lobster research findings have been characterized is that lobsters do not merely respond to pain, they also feel pain, which is different.

Is that consciousness?


I am probably not doing justice to the original research. Look for Robert Elwood if interested.









Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 10, 2018 - 08:29pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
The Atlantic: In a Second, the Entire World Shape-Shifts
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Dec 12, 2018 - 04:34am PT
The anecdote about the lady who was relieved to find out she had "Charles Bonnet syndrome" was endearing. Sometimes just having a name for your problem and a simple way to characterize it, is a step in the right direction. And now for a little humor:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Dec 12, 2018 - 04:47am PT
this had been my go-to- to return me to sawing logs, catching z's; slumber' when the world's issues' & the stew we are sure to be in kept me from sleeping. Now, I find it almost entertaining, almost.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 12, 2018 - 08:03am PT
Thanks to yanqui for the comment. It overcame my disinclination to watch Youtube videos. I had not recognized Oliver Sacks.

Oliver Sacks is himself endearing. He never mentioned attempting to treat hallucinations medically. Good physicians focus on the person they are trying to help, not just the medical issue.

My own wife the medical geneticist enjoyed the video, too. She has often seen the relief people feel when a condition which they or a child of theirs has is given a name.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 12, 2018 - 08:20am PT
Love this title: Life Scientific

My sexy, science-y boyfriend described this episode of The Life Scientific with @danieldennett on the evolution of the human brain as “one of the best and most interesting 30 mins I've ever listened to on a podcast... -n9birds

re: competence without comprehension, robots all the way down

Daniel Dennett on the evolution of the human brain...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b08kv3y4


Here he brings clarity to several issues the chopra types and nonscience types on this thread like to caricature.

It's truly the Age of Podcasts now. I wonder how all this will be transforming education and learning in the future.


I lead something of a life scientific, I think.

...

It would be astonishing if this creature didn't have a mind...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://youtu.be/-5NCSjqYmWY
capseeboy

Social climber
portland, oregon
Dec 16, 2018 - 07:09pm PT
Many people have had deep brain stimulators implanted. This electrical stimulation can produce a variety of sensations. Couldn't those sensations be called "experience?"

Imagine that. Planet/humanity saved by brain implants. All our desires and ambitions fulfilled while sitting in the comfort of our armchair. Climb a mountain, make war/peace/love/sex/save the world. We could actually be excessive w/o gaining weight.

I'm guessing that the chemicals produced through artificial stimulation would be a real experience. Metabolic changes are a reality.

old spin: AI has planted us here to replicate AI.

BTW thanks for the OTTER view point. Cute rascal!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2018 - 07:44am PT
Has anyone heard from John G lately. Hope he's ok.

Merry Christmas, all!

John
WBraun

climber
Dec 24, 2018 - 08:22am PT
He's meditating in cave.

He's doing the actual experiment not like so-called scientists who only put on lab coat, Google and babble .... :-)

John Gill hope you are in good health and happiness.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Dec 24, 2018 - 10:24am PT
Well, it does seem John Gill uploaded a couple of math articles to ResearchGate not too long ago, so maybe that's what he's up to.

Felices fiestas, Mind threaders!
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 24, 2018 - 01:50pm PT
I'm still functional, guys. Thanks and Merry Xmas to all!


;>)
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 24, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
Good to hear.
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