What is "Mind?"

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MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 13, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
Jogill,

Illusion is the result of ignorance, and ignorance is incomplete understanding. All perspectives are valid, but no perspective is complete. If you will, the One shows up in infinite variegated’ness, each with its perspective. You’d have to combine them all (I guess) to see fully. It can’t be done, of course, so one must make the assumption that what they see is limited (in so many ways).

P.S. Ever see "Rashoman?"
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:00pm PT
Illusion is the result of ignorance, and ignorance is incomplete understanding. All perspectives are valid, but no perspective is complete. If you will, the One shows up in infinite variegated’ness, each with its perspective. You’d have to combine them all (I guess) to see fully. It can’t be done, of course, so one must make the assumption that what they see is limited (in so many ways).


And yet the philosopher eats the steak on the fork, same as anyone, most of the time.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
Hindu and Buddhist philosophers don't eat steak.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 13, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
and we see the idea that "my brain is only fooling me into believing this" for what it is

The truth, I suspect. The mind is a wily coyote, a trickster.

But thanks, Mike.
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Jun 13, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jun 14, 2018 - 08:08am PT
Hindu and Buddhist philosophers don't eat steak.


But they do eat? As used in Feynman's light-hearted comments on philosophy, the steak is only an example of food and the point is that almost everyone eats whether or not they fully comprehend the nature of reality.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Jun 14, 2018 - 09:21am PT
It might just look like what we call eating.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2018 - 09:29am PT
What Ludwig W. and Mike have said is that we can describe things and phenomenon with great detail, and even say that when conditions X,Y, and Z are present, Q will follow. But this doesn't explain why that is so.

That is, when the brain intakes light waves in the frequency of ~670–610 THz, we see blue and not pink or orange. There is nothing inherent in either light waves or our brain that "causes" a specific outcome in a determined way, meaning that ~670–610 THz can only be blue and nothing else.

It DOES work out that way and we can describe the process pretty much exactly, but there is no explanation or cause why only that outcome occurs. Laws describe what DOES happen, they do not explain why. Seeking inherent qualities does not explain why they are inherent. They simply are sans cause or explanations.

"Why" is a trick question when considered in terms of determined causes. Outcomes are predictable, but we don't know why.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jun 14, 2018 - 09:36am PT
It might just look like what we call eating.



It might, but what difference would that make?

i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Jun 14, 2018 - 11:47am PT
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jun 14, 2018 - 12:59pm PT
There is nothing inherent in either light waves or our brain that "causes" a specific outcome in a determined way, meaning that ~670–610 THz can only be blue and nothing else.

You sure about that?

Blue is nothing but a word. However, my eyes, the optic nerve and the receptors in my brain are tuned. The thing I see with my eyes is called blue. It is a THING. Just as the sound I hear with my tuned (relatively speaking) ears is a THING. Sound and light are things. Just as is the blade of grass I feel under my toes. The feeling of that blade of grass is also a thing. The taste of that blade of grass when I put it in my mouth is also a thing. My brain is a thing. The sparks that fly between neurons are also things.

Blue skies on a field of greens salad, listening to bees and feeling the wind, is a nice way to spend the afternoon, also a thing.


Things, of which reality is made.

Call it red if you wish, it doesn't change the thing we call blue, not one bit.

DMT
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Jun 14, 2018 - 01:21pm PT


Wrestling with the Thing...


photo not found
Missing photo ID#532013
WBraun

climber
Jun 14, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
but what difference would that make? (to what you are eating)

If you don't know, then you still are in Neanderthal and animal consciousness and still NOT human being yet.

Just a polished animal.

Neanderthal and animal consciousness can NOT understand "What is Mind" at all, only human being can understand .....
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2018 - 03:17pm PT
The thing I see with my eyes is called blue.


You've taken the conversation sideways, Dingus. But I'll bite.

What do you mean, "My eyes see." If you pried them from your head would they still "see?"

There's a sensor on the movement detector in my back yard. Does it also "see," or merely register movement? What is the difference in the two functions?

If the gadget in my backyard was reprogrammed to respond to light in the
620–750 nm wavelength at 400–484 THz, would it see "blue?"
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jun 14, 2018 - 03:55pm PT
There's a sensor on the movement detector in my back yard. Does it also "see," or merely register movement? What is the difference in the two functions?
The sensor merely detects motion. An organism that evolved from an organism that could only detect motion, on the other hand, could use this functionality as a base for all kinds of new capabilities. That's what evolution does. Humans do, indeed "see" blue, with exceptions (like the guy who sat next to me in Optical Mineralogy).

If the gadget in my backyard was reprogrammed to respond to light in the 620–750 nm wavelength at 400–484 THz, would it see "blue?"
No.

In my opinion Largo, you greatly underestimate the power of evolution to explain things. Evolution includes equal parts science and computer programming logic. It's all because of that crazy DNA molecule.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
You're missing it, Eyonkee. I'm not presenting an "argument."

You said, "Humans do, indeed "see" blue, with exceptions (like the guy who sat next to me in Optical Mineralogy)."

What is the difference between "blue," as known and experienced by conscious humans who are NOT colorblind, and light at a wavelength of 450–495 nm and 606–668 THz?

Another way to put this:

Is the blue that you "see" on the wall "out there" the same as the blue you experience in your mind?


i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Jun 14, 2018 - 05:02pm PT

but there is no explanation or cause why only that outcome occurs

It could be intelligent design!
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jun 14, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
Is the blue that you "see" on the wall "out there" the same as the blue you experience in your mind?


Is the steak (or kale) you see on your fork the same as the steak or kale you experience in your mind?

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 14, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
There is nothing inherent in either light waves or our brain that "causes" a specific outcome in a determined way, meaning that ~670–610 THz can only be blue and nothing else.

Brains evolved to "see" colors to help interpret what those colors mean. Blood is red, if you see blood things are going down! Alert! That's why stop signs are red.

Orange can be healthy food. Yellow (sun) helps with alertness and energy. Green is freshness. Blue is water and sky, clean air and water.

What I wonder is the blue I see the same as the blue someone else sees? I would guess so.

I've read this and it seems like it could be true: women see colors better than men. Possibly because woman would pick out the food in hunter/gatherer societies, they needed to be able to see subtle difference to determine freshness/poison. Men have a better sense of direction. They needed to go far afield on hunts and find their way back to the woman and children.

It's not hard to see that human brains evolved from lower animals. All the great apes have self awareness and Koko the sign talking Ape is pretty amazing how smart she is. Is that "mind" based on a more universal consciousness? Maybe, but to me evidence points to evolution leading us to where we are.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Jun 14, 2018 - 06:53pm PT
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