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Jim Clipper
climber
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Oct 31, 2018 - 10:39pm PT
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Be careful with the cat box, Mr ed.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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healyje: The problem with your gravity comparison is that gravity is fundamental and unchanging - i.e. gravity never evolves, changes or becomes more complex. It is as it is.
Great. What is it?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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MikeL, perhaps you could reacquaint yourself with Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation...
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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They do resonate. This 'biner orientation worries me a little. It happens to me, too.
Yeah we left behind our sling extensions which would have perhaps prevented that sort of thing, as well as less overall drag.
Thanks MH2.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Great. What is it?
The point isn't a matter of a conclusive statement of what it is, but rather that, as a fundamental feature of the universe, it's immutable. For consciousness to "arise" within us as individuals or to manifest itself as [a growing] awareness within us would require, whatever it is, that it be mutable and capable of evolving which, by definition, would mean it wouldn't be fundamental as Largo is attempting to claim.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I really like the paper on the wasp and cockroach. That is a pretty wasp (anthropocentric admission).
I may need to revise my view on the mind/brain relationship. Maybe brains actually do receive a kind of non-physical input from an outside source. How else could those itty-bitty insects carry around such a diverse toolkit of thrust and parry tactics?
That said, the over-arching consciousness would not be the "Let's all get along with each other," type. More like the analogy of Cixin Liu: The Dark Forest. The Universe is not your friend.
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WBraun
climber
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The Universe is not your friend.
The Universe IS your friend!
Just not for mental speculating gross materialists who ignore the manufacture of the source of consciousness ......
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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The Universe is not your friend.
Cut and paste from Wiki: "Cockroaches are social insects; a large number of species are either gregarious or inclined to aggregate, and a slightly smaller number exhibit parental care. Some species, such as the gregarious German cockroach, have an elaborate social structure involving common shelter, social dependence, information transfer and kin recognition. The social biology of domiciliary cockroaches ... can be characterized by a common shelter, overlapping generations, non-closure of groups, equal reproductive potential of group members, an absence of task specialization, high levels of social dependence, central place foraging, social information transfer, kin recognition, and a meta-population structure."
If you want to survive 320 million years, it helps to have friends.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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If you want to survive 320 million years, it helps to have friends.
Yes. A Universe can give you the time.
I also heard lately that some bat species have complex social relationships.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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what it gravity?
it does this:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
The merger that led to the formation of the Milky Way’s inner stellar halo and thick disk
Amina Helmi, Carine Babusiaux, Helmer H. Koppelman, Davide Massari, Jovan Veljanoski & Anthony G. A. Brown
http://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0625-x.epdf
The assembly of our Galaxy can be reconstructed using the motions and chemistry of individual stars1,2. Chemo-dynamical studies of the stellar halo near the Sun have indicated the presence of multiple components3, such as streams4 and clumps5, as well as correlations between the stars’ chemical abundances and orbital parameters6–8. Recently, analyses of two large stellar surveys9,10 revealed the presence of a well populated elemental abundance sequence7,11, two distinct sequences in the colour–magnitude diagram12 and a prominent, slightly retrograde kinematic structure13,14 in the halo near the Sun, which may trace an important accretion event experienced by the Galaxy15. However, the link between these observations and their implications for Galactic history is not well understood. Here we report an analysis of the kinematics, chemistry, age and spatial distribution of stars that are mainly linked to two major Galactic components: the thick disk and the stellar halo. We demonstrate that the inner halo is dominated by debris from an object that at infall was slightly more massive than the Small Magellanic Cloud, and which we refer to as Gaia–Enceladus. The stars that originate in Gaia–Enceladus cover nearly the full sky, and their motions reveal the presence of streams and slightly retrograde and elongated trajectories. With an estimated mass ratio of four to one, the merger of the Milky Way with Gaia–Enceladus must have led to the dynamical heating of the precursor of the Galactic thick disk, thus contributing to the formation of this component approximately ten billion years ago. These findings are in line with the results of galaxy formation simulations, which predict that the inner stellar halo should be dominated by debris from only a few massive progenitors2,16.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Think of it. All that order, all that inviable law, all that inevitable order and all that understanding, knowing written into the first instance of the universe. Sure makes you wonder and then wonder: what is wonder?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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is it possible, I wonder, that what we think of as order is just how we've ordered it?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Possibile. But light, thermodynamics, gravity they all seem so bound up in predictability and that predictability is unchanged throughout the universe. Pretty wonderful.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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for the most part, they pose questions of interest to humans, for instance, what is thermodynamic efficiency?
the definition of "waste heat" is energy unavailable to do mechanical work... certainly these are concerns of human industry. We can generalize the concepts, but it is easy to get caught up in viewing the universe from the human perspective.
This thread is rife with posts demonstrating such limited perspectives.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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it is easy to get caught up in viewing the universe from the human perspective.
What other perspective, than the human perspective, is available to humans?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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There are a lot of humans on the planet. Whether any of them go beyond the human perspective would be hard to determine. Or you may be defining any perspective a human has as a human perspective, but the range of such perspectives is still hard to determine. How about so-called feral children? There aren't many verified examples.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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go beyond the human perspective
Yes. I would like to know what this means.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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By the way, Ed is starting to sound rather Kantian with this remark:
is it possible, I wonder, that what we think of as order is just how we've ordered it?
I wonder: has too much exposure to philosophy been a bad influence?
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Jim Clipper
climber
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is it possible, I wonder, that what we think of as order is just how we've ordered it?
I won't try to speak for others, but it seems that some aspect of that thought might be contained in the noble truths. It might not be exclusive to scientific thought. Maybe it is "scientific" thought.
If no, why feel that is it impossible that the idea hasn't arisen for others, even with a very different world view, or historical perspective?
Finally, although there are many problems with religion, in my heart I believe there was the Buddha. He was likely a prince from a wealthy family. He saw the suffering in reincarnation, or maybe the reincarnation of suffering in systems. He said that there is another way, and it helped others who would not otherwise break the system.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Think of it. All that order, all that inviable law, all that inevitable order and all that understanding, knowing written into the first instance of the universe. Sure makes you wonder...
My basic point, or basic emphasis, here, all along.
http://www.supertopo.com/forumsearch.php?ftr=mechanistic+nature
It's time we built on it. Shared living narratives (for the good life; to unify, to motivate, to draw meaning from), institutions, communities, best practices, all of it.
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