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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 15, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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To me having a heart means extending yourself to others in ways that are often uncomfortable or inconvenient by helping others in ways that give you no personal benefit. Particularly as an academic, it means going beyond endless discussions of the theory of things and actually doing something for other living beings whether human or not. Of course most people on this thread do that; I have myself experienced it personally from some of them. And while our own western religious tradition admonishes us to not stand on the street corner and shout about it, I just notice that it is not much mentioned on this thread.
This observation was provoked by jgill's question of what happens after emptiness is experienced. What then? One Buddhist tradition says that's it, that's all we need to do. Most however, say, that it's then time to return to the world and put selfless, egoless understanding into practical action, a view also of the other great religious traditions.
If we remove the ethical teachings of religions from the process of meditation, I think we end up with selfish quietism, or people who control others through their superior mental concentration. All the spiritual traditions warn against this.
As religious traditions collapse, the question is what will replace them. Right now, we are all coasting on what has been handed down to us from the past. I worry that in another generation of secularization, what will be left is political partisanship and tribalism, particularly in America where there is no shared cultural tradition to fall back on. I believe we are already experiencing the beginnings of this. In a society where there are no ethical norms for protecting the weak from the strong, we will revert to the jungle. We will lose a lot of our humaness. Politically I think that is already happening.
So what are scientists with heart to do? I think emphasizing compassion for all life as we have evolved together is certainly the foundation. Emphasizing that we have only one planet that needs protection is another. Acknowledging that humans are the apex predator but have potential to be more than that is another. All fine for scientists and their private views, but how does one convey that to the larger society? How does one give it heart and inspiration for the average person? That is the question.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 15, 2018 - 10:21am PT
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Mike, I think the Buddhist equivalent of faith with works is the Eightfold Path precept of right livelihood. Werner chose an obvious path to manifest this. Teaching and research are more subtle and can go either way. Indeed, most livelihoods are like that.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 15, 2018 - 10:40am PT
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All fine for scientists and their private views, but how does one convey that to the larger society? How does one give it heart and inspiration for the average person? That is the question.
As MikeL recently wrote on a different thread, it is our responsibility as individuals to change our own behaviour, not the responsibility of the larger society or science to tell us how to act. However, we can learn a lot from family, friends, society and science that may help us choose how to act.
Scientists may try to put aside their emotions when looking for objective truth but to draw them as cool rationalists is a caricature. Like seeing artists as paint daubers.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 15, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
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This strikes me as a very American individualistic view and a very elitist intellectual view. How does that help the 50 year old in the rust belt who lost his job when it went overseas? How does that help the single mother who doesn't have time or energy to do much teaching with her children? Or the small businessman who is losing contracts because he can't find enough American workers who are drug free and want to work?
We have real problems in our society and while this thread is very stimulating for a certain small group of us, and most of us are of an age that the system will probably hold together well enough to see us to our end. But what of the future? Both evolution and spiritual traditions are concerned about future generations. Perhaps we should just shrug it off, and say we're too old to make a difference and let the younger folks sort it out. That would certainly be the most comfortable way of handling it.
However, since I am still active in the educational field and dealing with young people all the time, I keep trying to find new paradigms to present to them to stimulate their thinking on the subject. I teach biological anthropology, so the subject of integrating evolution and traditional beliefs and ethics comes up in my life all the time.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 15, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
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the subject of integrating evolution and traditional beliefs and ethics comes up in my life all the time.
That could also be called an elite and intellectual realm.
As for the future, let's get back to
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 15, 2018 - 06:32pm PT
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I eliminated my phrasing that jgill objected to. My intention was not political. I was thinking more along the lines of 37% are totally fed up with the status quo whatever the consequences. If he takes his statement down, we're good to go though I'm not sure how many people actually read this thread.
And thanks DMT for the very thoughtful response. I had the same upbringing and make the same observations. I'm wondering, were you able to convey to your children that science is a new paradigm for looking at the world that contains a strong ethical component? How did you teach them ethics, if not by tradition? Solely by example?
And yes, Mh2, I realize that is the answer many on this thread would give at least for a certain period in their life. Then what? Just making money and buying stuff?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 15, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
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Then what? Just making money and buying stuff?
I prefer climbing rocks and looking at flowers.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 15, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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OK, Jan, good to go. Thanks.
I agree with Dingus. I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church in large metro areas, but quit going to church after high school. Nevertheless,the moral and ethical teachings are embedded in my mind, and the adults that influenced me were all fine educated people, dedicated to their callings. Had I been raised in more rural settings things might have gone differently.
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There may be no "pregeometry" that a human can comprehend. Vertices and lines seems a real stretch and still rely upon our observations of the real world. Path integrals referred to in that paper on hexagonal neuronal patterns sound like simple contour integrals generated by compositions but not having the actual article I'm probably way off base. Random walk kinds of integration maybe, among the first kinds of path integration. I had enough trouble digesting elementary functional integrals. Rambling - pay no heed.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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May 15, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
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You never get it done, and you cannot get it wrong. Life is supposed to be fun: you are creator, you are a focusing mechanism, and you are here in an environment that is very conducive to that. When you get hold of an idea, play it out for the pleasure in it. If you are doing it for any other reason, then you are not connecting to your Source Energy.
Excerpted from Silver Springs, MD on 4/11/99
Our Love
Esther (Abraham and Jerry)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 15, 2018 - 09:42pm PT
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Jan,
Sri Nisargadatta was told that people should work to save the world. His response was: “Save yourself—and then see how much of that world there is to save.” Everything—but everything—is an inside job.
Economists tell us the world is a place of scarce resources. That particular axiom has powerful implications and provides the basis for the first 3 Noble Truths. Nothing changes that basis except a change of mind—environmental and situational conditions notwithstanding. Everything is an inside job.
Sounds heartless and selfish, I know.
Jed McKenna says that if you see the truth of just one thing, you’ll see the truth of everything.
One can investigate and think through what it fully means to be self-less.
(My write-up is heavy-handed, but not more than others. MH2 is right about caricatures.)
Go-B +1
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 16, 2018 - 01:02am PT
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DMT,
I was astounded at the idea that a father should not ask his daughters for their opinions. That’s so different from my upbringing where I had to justify every opinion with logic. How is it possible not to, I am still asking myself. The big advantage I can see however, is that it avoids judgmentalism which was also rampant in our household. And screaming? Never allowed. So thanks for your insights into a whole new method of child raising, the most important aspect of which I am sure, was your own personal example.
jogill,
I don’t know if you had kids or not (well raised corgis to be sure). If so, how were you able to give them (the kids) the ethics of your religious background without the religious symbolism? By general principles only? And of course example.
MikeL
True, everything is an inside job but isn’t it our job as teachers, to present ideas and give choices for how other people’s inside minds might change? Even Gurus do that.
and DMT,
On second thought, I think my style of teaching is kind of like your style of parenting. I present them with a buffet of ideas, but I do question them so they have to think more about those ideas. I try to do it however, with a sense of humor. I never judge them during the discussion no matter how dumb the idea. Of course I do have to judge them on their exams but I give partial credit if their reasoning was good even if the conclusion was wrong.
and yes, gobee and Mh2, it's good to stop and enjoy the flowers.
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2018 - 06:48am PT
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Sri Nisargadatta was told that people should work to save the world. His response was:
“Save yourself—and then see how much of that world there is to save.”
Yes, one can NOT do anything without first gaining real knowledge free from all material defects.
Defective components will only make the whole more defective.
That is the material world that the living entities create because they want to "lord it over" material nature with their defective
consciousness due to their tiny minute individualistic freedoms.
We see the direct result of that in our modern world as it has devolved down into hypocrisy and quarrel .......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 16, 2018 - 07:53am PT
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"Scream Practice." Like!
Grade A post, Dingus. Thanks for the POVs.
Maybe you'll be a writer/author in your next life. ;)
TFPU.
...
Food for thought: Do we really want our "sciences" to be prescriptive? To what extent, what degree, do we want them to be prescriptive? to "contain" ethics, and dos and don'ts? and to be inspired/driven by aims/goals? It certainly could be an easy slide into such given the precedence - the fact that the "applied sciences" of engineering and medicine, both core fields, are already prescriptive.
The more "science" is/becomes prescriptive (e.g., via the ever-emerging "social sciences"), the more you're likely to hear it or its contents called "scientism", no?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 16, 2018 - 08:02am PT
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Dingus is a writer in this life.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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May 16, 2018 - 08:28am PT
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Jan, our daughter went to a very liberal arts university and she looks at many issues from a different POV than us.
She expresses her beliefs in a thoughtful understanding way. She will start working on her MS this fall.
As parents we want her to make her way in life and are so proud of her!
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Just read this after posting...
Parents don’t want their children to make the wrong decisions, so they don’t allow them to make the decision. And then the child becomes dependent, and then the parent resents that, and it gets off into a blameful thing early on. If you are encouraging children to do all that they can do — and not squelching the natural eagerness that is within them, so that they can shine and thrive and show you and themselves how good they are at adapting to physical experience — then everyone wins.
Excerpted from Dallas, TX on 3/13/99
Our Love
Esther (Abraham and Jerry)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 16, 2018 - 10:10am PT
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Fructose, care to elaborate on any of those interesting ideas? I guess I can understand how medicine is prescriptive, given it deals with life and death decisions, but I'm having a hard time understanding how that applies to the hard sciences?
Personally, I would not want hard science to go down the path of PC restricted discourse as some of the social sciences have which I regard as having too much well intentioned heart and not enough logic.
Maybe only those sciences which directly involve human beings should consider issues of ethics? There's always been a debate as to whether biological anthropology belongs with the social or the biological sciences. Then again we have the nuclear scientists with their Doomsday clock, so I'm not sure we can draw a line.
Meanwhile, I don't think of ethics as being do's and don'ts. Rather, before we act, what about the consequences as best we can understand them and how can we ameliorate the deleterious effects for those who will experience them most? That sort of thinking.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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May 16, 2018 - 10:14am PT
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This one is really good my fellow brothers and sisters...
ACIM Lesson 191
I am the holy Son of God Himself.
Here is your declaration of release from bondage of the world. And here as well is all the world released. You do not see what you have done by giving to the world the role of jailer to the Son of God. What could it be but vicious and afraid, fearful of shadows, punitive and wild, lacking all reason, blind, insane with hate?
What have you done that this should be your world? What have you done that this is what you see? Deny your own Identity, and this is what remains. You look on chaos and proclaim it is yourself. There is no sight that fails to witness this to you. There is no sound that does not speak of frailty within you and without; no breath you draw that does not seem to bring you nearer death; no hope you hold but will dissolve in tears.
Deny your own Identity, and you will not escape the madness which induced this weird, unnatural and ghostly thought that mocks creation and that laughs at God. Deny your own Identity, and you assail the universe alone, without a friend, a tiny particle of dust against the legions of your enemies. Deny your own Identity, and look on evil, sin and death, and watch despair snatch from your fingers every scrap of hope, leaving you nothing but the wish to die.
Yet what is it except a game you play in which Identity can be denied? You are as God created you. All else but this one thing is folly to believe. In this one thought is everyone set free. In this one truth are all illusions gone. In this one fact is sinlessness proclaimed to be forever part of everything, the central core of its existence and its guarantee of immortality.
But let today's idea find a place among your thoughts and you have risen far above the world, and all the worldly thoughts that hold it prisoner. And from this place of safety and escape you will return and set it free. For he who can accept his true Identity is truly saved. And his salvation is the gift he gives to everyone, in gratitude to Him Who pointed out the way to happiness that changed his whole perspective of the world.
One holy thought like this and you are free: You are the holy Son of God Himself. And with this holy thought you learn as well that you have freed the world. You have no need to use it cruelly, and then perceive this savage need in it. You set it free of your imprisonment. You will not see a devastating image of yourself walking the world in terror, with the world twisting in agony because your fears have laid the mark of death upon its heart.
Be glad today how very easily is hell undone. You need but tell yourself:
I am the holy Son of God Himself. I cannot suffer,
cannot be in pain; I cannot suffer loss, nor fail to do
all that salvation asks.
And in that thought is everything you look on wholly changed.
A miracle has lighted up all dark and ancient caverns, where the rites of death echoed since time began. For time has lost its hold upon the world. The Son of God has come in glory to redeem the lost, to save the helpless, and to give the world the gift of his forgiveness. Who could see the world as dark and sinful, when God's Son has come again at last to set it free?
You who perceive yourself as weak and frail, with futile hopes and devastated dreams, born but to die, to weep and suffer pain, hear this: All power is given unto you in earth and Heaven. There is nothing that you cannot do. You play the game of death, of being helpless, pitifully tied to dissolution in a world which shows no mercy to you. Yet when you accord it mercy, will its mercy shine on you.
Then let the Son of God awaken from his sleep, and opening his holy eyes, return again to bless the world he made. In error it began, but it will end in the reflection of his holiness. And he will sleep no more and dream of death. Then join with me today. Your glory is the light that saves the world. Do not withhold salvation longer. Look about the world, and see the suffering there. Is not your heart willing to bring your weary brothers rest?
They must await your own release. They stay in chains till you are free. They cannot see the mercy of the world until you find it in yourself. They suffer pain until you have denied its hold on you. They die till you accept your own eternal life. You are the holy Son of God Himself. Remember this, and all the world is free. Remember this, and earth and Heaven are one.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 16, 2018 - 11:00am PT
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re descriptive science vs prescriptive science
Jan, remind me, what's your background here? How much have you thought about, or else distinguished between, the difference between so-called descriptive analysis and prescriptive analysis? This ties into the subject matter above.
I suppose this is yet another example of nuanced thinking.
We used to post about these same concepts years ago at ST, didn't we? Or at least I did. (A lot. lol)
More later...
(I just spent way too much time on this yanny laurel phenom!!)
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