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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 27, 2018 - 06:01pm PT
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I didn't realize I was the 20,000th post. That's a source of awe and mystery in itself.
Meanwhile I was disappointed to hear that the universe may not be mathematical after all? Did I understand that right - just when I had gotten used to the idea?
This thread for me is about the journey and not the goal.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2018 - 06:10pm PT
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Just wander aimlessly .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2018 - 08:08pm PT
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What I’ve said pretty much all along is that there is only one thing that one knows for sure: [their own] consciousness / awareness. The rest is speculation...
what data do you have, MikeL, that I possess consciousness? as you have asserted, you cannot know with certainty, it is a mere speculation.
Show me the data.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 27, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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God sleeps in the minerals,
Begins to wake up in the animals
and realizes who he truly is, through humans.
There may be more to the story. 1 2 3 Infinity.
George Gamov
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 27, 2018 - 08:38pm PT
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Ed: what data do you have, MikeL, that I possess consciousness?
None at all, Ed. I don’t know if the people I seem to see on the TV are actually what they seem to be, too. Their consciousness? I can’t say, and I mean that.
My own consciousness (to me, of course) constitutes its own data, the only thing that can.
You can think about it, if you want. If consciousness (what seems to be my own) is all that I can say I KNOW, then what I can then say is that I am all that there is.
You are a part of my dream, Ed. Just like me.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 27, 2018 - 09:28pm PT
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I agree Mh2, it's a bit anthropomorphic.
There could be other life forms on other planets that more perfectly exemplify this.
Then again, Ed and Mike L. can't even seem to agree if they both have consciousness on this one.
And Namaste Jim. My soul greets your soul even if you think you don't have one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 28, 2018 - 02:00am PT
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Is there any truth which isn't doubtable?
The Duck: Yes, there is.
I was more aiming this at our resident post-modernist given his doubts about external truths.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 28, 2018 - 07:07am PT
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healyje: I was more aiming this at our resident post-modernist given his doubts about external truths.
Oh, sorry. The only truth that is undoubtable is that there is consciousness. (One doesn’t need to assume some postmodern view for that.) One can either look at what consciousness appears to be, or one can look at beliefs.
Beliefs are particularly interesting to me. People appear to make such commitments to them, yet they seem to be just well-worn thoughts—and what really are thoughts?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 28, 2018 - 07:12am PT
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Consciousness is full of illusions... That's why we need science (scientific method)...
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Apr 28, 2018 - 07:36am PT
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Penny For Your Thoughts...
...Words that matter!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2018 - 07:49am PT
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Consciousness is full of illusions... That's why wee need science (scientific method)...
No ....
You are the one creating the illusions.
Consciousness itself is completely pure and free from all illusions.
Meditate on consciousness itself and it will reveal itself in complete whole free from all illusions.
That is the real scientific method to understanding consciousness ......
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Apr 28, 2018 - 07:53am PT
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Just stop. That mystical nonsense is a waste of life. Life is life. The mind is illusory. Werner thinks that the illusion is reality and that reality is illusion. Talk about stoopid
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2018 - 07:56am PT
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I never said any such thing.
You are projecting such nonsense,
I said consciousness itself is free from all illusion .....
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 28, 2018 - 08:01am PT
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"consciousness itself is free from all illusion"
Idealized consciousness?
The consciousness of God?
The God consciousness?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2018 - 08:02am PT
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Consciousness ITSELF
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 28, 2018 - 08:03am PT
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... and Consciousness ITSELF is?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Apr 28, 2018 - 08:15am PT
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In the now, (our) consciousness is free and no thought is needed to be aware of what is all around us and in us! Thoughts are about, consciousness is being (yourself)!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 28, 2018 - 08:51am PT
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The only truth that is undoubtable is that there is consciousness.
That is a much more complex and questionable statement than you seem to give it credit for. You just said you can't be sure that Ed has consciousness. Can you tell us what you mean by the word, 'consciousness?' If you can tell us, please do. If you can't, how can you be sure that it exists?
Philosophers who have made life-long study of questions about the nature of truth, what can be said to exist, logic, etc., have whittled Descartes down to this:
The one thing we can be sure of is that something exists.
That way you avoid having to answer questions about what the something is and whether you are making a true statement when you announce its existence.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2018 - 10:50am PT
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what data do you have, MikeL, that I possess consciousness? as you have asserted, you cannot know with certainty, it is a mere speculation.
Show me the data.
This is the old, "The Question of Other Minds" rabbit hole.
How to approach it?
We can start with the obvious fact that we ARE conscious. We have experience and know we have it.
We can only directly experience our own consciousness, and what is in it (ideas, feelings, sensations, memories, ect.). Consciousness itself is not visually observable.
"Show me the data" is a request for external, observable proof (data) of consciousness, which contradicts one of our deepest intuitions - that we cannot externally observe consciousness as a phenomenon "out there" from which we can scrub "data."
If your first assumption is that reality and physicality are identical, then you've basically excused yourself from the mind investigation.
Leibniz's "Mill Experiment" showed the folly of trying to wrangle consciousness itself as an observable physical process - back in the 1700s.
It follows from this belief system that consciousness is an illusion, or is unreal.
At a deeper, more nuanced level we see the belief at play here that consciousness can be or should be (to be "real") graspable as content, as a discrete phenomenon we can measure, or perhaps a kind of dimension ("a measurable extent of some kind, such as length, breadth, depth, or height"), rather than the context ("the circumstances that form the setting for an event") from which content arises.
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