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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
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This is one perspective that says, "Sorry, folks. It ain't there."
Unfortunately, it IS there.
Otherwise, there's no need to build on a solid foundation.
For the gross materialists, there's no need for a solid foundation.
Thus their whole build is on theory and mental speculation as their house is constantly crumbling ......
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 14, 2018 - 09:27pm PT
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I started to watch that video Largo but after about thirty minutes I couldn't help but think that goofy looking mofo was going to say we are nothing but inside-out as#@&%es. That was it for me. Hofsteader doesn't popularize very well.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2018 - 09:14am PT
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Wayno, I've found some of the most interesting material from wonky looking mo-fos. Also wasted a lot of time on same. Always a crap shoot.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 15, 2018 - 09:41am PT
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It wasn't really that bad but he kept doing this eye-sparkle thing that really started to bug me. I just don't like such distractions. It becomes an extended selfie from hell.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 15, 2018 - 11:11am PT
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Strange Loops:
From Wiki: According to this view the psychological "I" is a narrative fiction, something created only from intake of symbolic data and its own ability to create stories about itself from that data
Hmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 15, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
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jogill: Hmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar.
:-) You need to clarify that for us. Are you making an intimate, personal observation, are you making a 3rd-person observation based upon what you've read?
Fictions can be found everywhere.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 15, 2018 - 07:44pm PT
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And did you know that the noun fiction can be countable or uncountable (in dictionary-speak)?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 15, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
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You need to clarify that for us
It's a koan. Don't get discouraged.
;>)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 15, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
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Why would you say that?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 15, 2018 - 09:35pm PT
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Largo and PSP tell us one's "I" is a fabrication. That's why it sounds familiar. Just a new expression for the Wizard to use: Strange Loop
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2018 - 09:52am PT
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Largo and PSP tell us one's "I" is a fabrication. That's why it sounds familiar. Just a new expression for the Wizard to use: Strange Loop
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Careful with that one, John. The insight of "no-I" pertains to directly investigating what this "I" actually is, in your moment to moment experience. We go though life believing that there is an entity in some way different from the flood of experience, some stand alone phenomenon in which our past and present converge, an I that is aware, that has a past, and beliefs, and feelings, and so forth.
Working from this perspective is essential to living in the world, but the "I" is in fact just a provisional belief and vantage composed of experience itself. There is no entity perceiving, there is just perceiving.
The elusive self-entity has been represented, insinuated and implied variously throughout literature as the homunculus, Doppelgänger, Fastachee, Golem, Nuno, Simulacrum, Snugglepot, Cuddlepie, Soul, Telesphorus (mythology), Tulpa, et al.
If anyone finds it, tell us all about it.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 16, 2018 - 10:46am PT
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There is no entity perceiving, there is just perceiving.
There is just perceiving.
In order to perceive there has to be a perceiver.
Thus "I" is an absolute reality as the individual living entity itself.
Your impersonal mayavadi oneness is ultimately a very poor fund of knowledge that was defeated many years ago and even ridiculed as being false by its very founder himself ......
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 16, 2018 - 11:25am PT
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The elusive self-entity has been represented, insinuated and implied variously
If anyone finds it, tell us all about it.
Same goes for love, human kindness, evil, etc., etc.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 16, 2018 - 11:56am PT
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If anyone finds it, tell us all about it.
As if them telling us will help us find it.
Maybe that is not how it works if it works at all?
And then there is that wacky choice of pronouns that avoids "I".
You writers kill me.
Wink wink
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
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Interesting thing, Wayne, is the "I" does work. Try living life without it. Then go in and start to deconstruct your ideas about who you are, getting that "I" in the cross-hairs. Then tell us all about THAT process.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 16, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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Wait a sec. Read it again. I am not disagreeing with anything you wrote. I am only trying to respond to your challenge and your challenges like it. It is the way that you framed the challenge that is interesting to me.
Let's just suppose someone did find it. It being the elusive self-entity as represented throughout literature. One would assume that what was found is like what is being sought. Otherwise it could be claimed as not the same thing.
We go though life believing that there is an entity in some way different from the flood of experience, some stand alone phenomenon in which our past and present converge, an I that is aware, that has a past, and beliefs, and feelings, and so forth.
This might be true or universal or both but at this point we can only agree that is an assumption, especially if you say we.
Working from this perspective is essential to living in the world, but the "I" is in fact just a provisional belief and vantage composed of experience itself. There is no entity perceiving, there is just perceiving.
Again, an assumption made to sound universally true.
Now if I found this elusive I it would be me and we would be left to suffer because I would rather that we as individuals discover this I as and for themselves, not as a smug challenge on a wonky internet forum.
Then tell us all about THAT process.
Can you hear yourself? You do this a lot.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 16, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
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There is no entity perceiving, there is just perceiving
This happens so often when one is heavily involved in a project, focusing on the task at hand, that to describe it as a revelation seems clichéd. To have this experience while in a meditative state might be a pleasant epiphany, but I've never known someone attempting to live a normal life in this mode, although I'm not concluding there are no such examples. Saints and monks?
Is this how you live your life? Is it possible to become emotional while in this Zen condition?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 16, 2018 - 08:58pm PT
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you have to step out of the zen state in order to evaluate it
Touche!
;>)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 17, 2018 - 06:24pm PT
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Jogill: This happens so often when one is heavily involved in a project, focusing on the task at hand, that to describe it as a revelation seems clichéd. To have this experience while in a meditative state might be a pleasant epiphany, but I've never known someone attempting to live a normal life in this mode, although I'm not concluding there are no such examples. Saints and monks?
Well, I could be one. I think there are many artistic personalities who have considerable exposure to that state of mind (if you’re interested in them). Being alive and being aware of it is always an epiphany. Pleasant? Ha-ha. It comes and goes.
You make out like there’s some sort of choice in the matter. Jose de Ortega said that “life is fired at us point blank.” One can sleep through it, or one can try to become fully aware of whatever the hell it is. I mean, it’s all you really got.
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